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Concept of God socially-dependent?

proglib
Posts: 391
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4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian, so I realize life is complicated and our philosophies/ideologies should be as well. It just bugs me that some folks are so dogmatic and sure of themselves not realizing how dependent their thinking is on their upbringing and social environment.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/18/2014 8:00:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.


Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian,

maybe you'd consider me a extreme individual...i'm an independent

;-)
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/18/2014 8:47:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Most atheists I know tend to be more left-leaning and opposed to the extreme version of individualism that has become increasingly common. Although thinking about it, said extremist individualism seems to be more of a US thing and most atheists I know are European, so perhaps that's just a sampling error.
proglib
Posts: 391
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4/19/2014 8:33:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 8:00:29 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.


Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian,

maybe you'd consider me a extreme individual...i'm an independent

;-)

Thanks for your comment!

Independence and individualism are good things, IMHO.

My topic may not have been expressed the clearest. I'm just kind of curious about folks who at the same time are so anti-social programs and supposedly individualistic and dogmatically religious.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
proglib
Posts: 391
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4/19/2014 8:37:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 8:47:47 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
Most atheists I know tend to be more left-leaning and opposed to the extreme version of individualism that has become increasingly common. Although thinking about it, said extremist individualism seems to be more of a US thing and most atheists I know are European, so perhaps that's just a sampling error.

Thanks to you for your comment, as well.

I really like when folks recognize the limitations of their samples! We all tend to generalize, and sometimes we need to step back and question, like you did, whether that is accurate.

For example, I'm strongly agnostic, libertarian, progressive and very spiritually inquisitive. Most would consider me left leaning, but I believe in individual choice as a strong value, especially in how one makes one's living--regulated capitalism.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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4/19/2014 9:47:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian, so I realize life is complicated and our philosophies/ideologies should be as well. It just bugs me that some folks are so dogmatic and sure of themselves not realizing how dependent their thinking is on their upbringing and social environment.

Personally, I'm coming to the understanding individualism versus collectivism is not so cut and dried. I grew up in a household that had a strong emphasis on personal responsibility, involving materialism, however a very collective attitude towards religion. I don't believe the individualism-collectivism phenomenon is either-or but, rather, a dynamic between physical (or materialistic) and emotional (or spiritual) factors. Most Republicans, not all, tend to believe in personal responsibility, in matters of materialism, while believing in collectivism, in religious matters. While, most Democrats, not all, tend to believe in collectivism, in matters of materialism, and individualism, in matters of spirituality.
Keltron
Posts: 161
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4/19/2014 3:35:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm just kind of curious about folks who at the same time are so anti-social programs and supposedly individualistic and dogmatically religious.

Most people lack critical thinking skills, so they are not even aware of the inconsistencies and contorted intellectual compartmentalization that occurs in their thinking processes.

"The National Center for Education Statistics provides more detail. Literacy is broken down into three parameters: prose, document, and quantitative literacy. Each parameter has four levels: below basic, basic, intermediate, and proficient. For prose literacy, for example, a below basic level of literacy means that a person can look at a short piece of text to get a small piece of uncomplicated information, while a person who is below basic in quantitative literacy would be able to do simple addition. In the US, 14% of the adult population is at the "below basic" level for prose literacy; 12% are at the "below basic" level for document literacy; and 22% are at that level for quantitative literacy. Only 13% of the population is proficient in these three areas"able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activity; or compute and compare the cost per ounce of food items." Emphasis added. http://en.wikipedia.org...
proglib
Posts: 391
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4/20/2014 11:22:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 3:35:47 PM, Keltron wrote:
I'm just kind of curious about folks who at the same time are so anti-social programs and supposedly individualistic and dogmatically religious.

Most people lack critical thinking skills, so they are not even aware of the inconsistencies and contorted intellectual compartmentalization that occurs in their thinking processes.

"The National Center for Education Statistics provides more detail. Literacy is broken down into three parameters: prose, document, and quantitative literacy. Each parameter has four levels: below basic, basic, intermediate, and proficient. For prose literacy, for example, a below basic level of literacy means that a person can look at a short piece of text to get a small piece of uncomplicated information, while a person who is below basic in quantitative literacy would be able to do simple addition. In the US, 14% of the adult population is at the "below basic" level for prose literacy; 12% are at the "below basic" level for document literacy; and 22% are at that level for quantitative literacy. Only 13% of the population is proficient in these three areas"able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activity; or compute and compare the cost per ounce of food items." Emphasis added. http://en.wikipedia.org...

THANKS--Very informative and succinct statement about the issue I was trying to address!

I actually had to go back over my initial post to see if your first sentence was quoting me, LOL. (Of course, I didn't put it so elegantly. ...:) That is exactly the kind of thing I was (and am) puzzling over.

Anecdotally: It's like when my far, far right brother says that Obama's economic policies are "stupid" and those who vote for him are "fools," and then fails to understand a simple joke about a guy named Adam Smith because he has no idea who wrote The Wealth of Nations.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
proglib
Posts: 391
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4/20/2014 11:34:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 9:47:17 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian, so I realize life is complicated and our philosophies/ideologies should be as well. It just bugs me that some folks are so dogmatic and sure of themselves not realizing how dependent their thinking is on their upbringing and social environment.

Personally, I'm coming to the understanding individualism versus collectivism is not so cut and dried. I grew up in a household that had a strong emphasis on personal responsibility, involving materialism, however a very collective attitude towards religion. I don't believe the individualism-collectivism phenomenon is either-or but, rather, a dynamic between physical (or materialistic) and emotional (or spiritual) factors. Most Republicans, not all, tend to believe in personal responsibility, in matters of materialism, while believing in collectivism, in religious matters. While, most Democrats, not all, tend to believe in collectivism, in matters of materialism, and individualism, in matters of spirituality.

Another excellent post and summary of the issue! Thanks s-anthony.

My family was (and a good percent still is) Irish Catholic. I'd say we had a similar attitude to responsibility and religion to what you describe. In college I became a libertarian, and helped start the first Berkeley chapter of Students for a Libertarian Society. My first vote for president was cast for the Libertarian Party candidate in 1980. (I detested Reagan for his statist approach to things like the Vietnam war and apparent lack of intelligence, and liked Carter as a person.) At the same time, I was very interested in spirituality and had actually chosen Berkeley for its Buddhist monastery, along with its culture and politics.

It took me a while to realize that life is more complicated than a purist libertarian philosophy accounts for.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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4/20/2014 5:02:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 11:34:55 AM, proglib wrote:
At 4/19/2014 9:47:17 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.

Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian, so I realize life is complicated and our philosophies/ideologies should be as well. It just bugs me that some folks are so dogmatic and sure of themselves not realizing how dependent their thinking is on their upbringing and social environment.

Personally, I'm coming to the understanding individualism versus collectivism is not so cut and dried. I grew up in a household that had a strong emphasis on personal responsibility, involving materialism, however a very collective attitude towards religion. I don't believe the individualism-collectivism phenomenon is either-or but, rather, a dynamic between physical (or materialistic) and emotional (or spiritual) factors. Most Republicans, not all, tend to believe in personal responsibility, in matters of materialism, while believing in collectivism, in religious matters. While, most Democrats, not all, tend to believe in collectivism, in matters of materialism, and individualism, in matters of spirituality.

Another excellent post and summary of the issue! Thanks s-anthony.

My family was (and a good percent still is) Irish Catholic. I'd say we had a similar attitude to responsibility and religion to what you describe. In college I became a libertarian, and helped start the first Berkeley chapter of Students for a Libertarian Society. My first vote for president was cast for the Libertarian Party candidate in 1980. (I detested Reagan for his statist approach to things like the Vietnam war and apparent lack of intelligence, and liked Carter as a person.) At the same time, I was very interested in spirituality and had actually chosen Berkeley for its Buddhist monastery, along with its culture and politics.

It took me a while to realize that life is more complicated than a purist libertarian philosophy accounts for.

Thank you.

Personally, I'm finding life is not lived in the extremes, at least not a healthy life; but, rather, life is more about balance. Life is never completely neutral, but this imbalance of the phenomenal world is that which keeps life searching for equilibrium; equilibrium is a goal, not a reality; the closer we get to it, the more stable life becomes.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/20/2014 6:09:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 8:00:29 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.


Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian,

maybe you'd consider me a extreme individual...i'm an independent

;-)

OMG congratulations, you can be an independent person like every individual who isn't in nappies!!!!!! Good for you!!!!
proglib
Posts: 391
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4/20/2014 11:06:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 8:00:29 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.


Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian,

maybe you'd consider me a extreme individual...i'm an independent

;-)

Rather than respond to the snide comment about your comment (just above), I'll say I'm surprised someone would think they were smart in saying "independent just like everyone who isn't in nappies" (paraphrasing.)

There are so many people--do I need to specify adults--who unthinkingly parrot the ideology (and corollary thoughts like buzzwords about climate change pro or con) of the people they identify with that it is completely disheartening to try to have an intelligent conversation these days. Being "an Independent" or individualist is in no way a given, IMHO.

Death to trolls--or at least the boring kind like above; some of the more intelligent trolls can be quite entertaining.

Cheers.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/21/2014 12:20:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 6:09:43 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/18/2014 8:00:29 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:13:02 AM, proglib wrote:
Had a brainstorm the other day about the origins of the concept of God, and how folks tend to believe what their ancestors believed (generally speaking-there are LOTS of exceptions, but probably millions of times more examples where this is true.)

It brought to mind the reversal of the saying "Man was created in God's image" that is popular with many atheists and agnostics.

It also brought to mind how extreme individualism is probably incompatible with religious dogma even though many "freedom and free market" worshipers seem to think they can without contradiction also be religiously fairly fanatic.


Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty individualistic myself and consider myself a pragmatic, progressive libertarian,

maybe you'd consider me a extreme individual...i'm an independent

;-)

OMG congratulations, you can be an independent person like every individual who isn't in nappies!!!!!! Good for you!!!!

interesting, why are you paying attention to my posts...?
have i irked you .... if so .... good, i'm glad...
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.