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Adam & Eve, Evil and Free-will

Angelos
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4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
In a biblical perspective, I have been studying the case of Adam and Eve, free-will and the reason to why evil is created. I have gathered enough supportive verses from the Scriptures to provide a conclusive answer. Not only have I read the Scriptures, but I read answers from many members of this community.

Adam & Eve

Many of us are familiar with the case of Adam and Eve's actions in eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To summarize the case, this is what happened according to the Scriptures:

1) Adam is created and Eve was created after. (Gen. 2:7, 22)
2) The biblical God told them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Otherwise, they will die. (Gen. 3:3)
3) Satan (or Lucifer) tricked Eve into eating from the Tree. (Gen. 3:4-6)
4) Adam, too, ate from the Tree. (Gen. 3:6)
5) Adam and Eve now have knowledge of Good and Evil. They hid from God when He entered the garden. (Gen. 3:7)
6) The biblical God punished Adam, Eve and Satan. (Gen. 3:14-19)

Now, who caused all of this? Is it Adam, Eve, Satan or God?

Supporting Adam and Eve: These two people did not know what is evil or good before eating from the special tree. Proof of how they have no knowledge of good or evil is by reading Genesis 2:25, which states that Adam and Eve were naked, but they were not ashamed. However, when they ate from the special tree, that's when they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:7 states that when they saw themselves naked, they gathered some fig leaves, sewed them together and wore them for clothes.

One may simply say, "God warned them about death." However, as I have said before, Adam and Eve does not know what is good or evil when they are told that they'll die if they ever eat from the special tree. If they knew death was 'evil', it contradicts Genesis 3:7. Therefore, we can assume that Adam and Eve are simply listening to what they are being told to do.

Supporting Satan: Satan knew he had an advantage to make Adam and Eve turn against God. Satan knew that Eve has no knowledge of good or evil, which is why he used trickery to make Eve eat from the tree. In fact, what Satan said to Eve is true; if Eve eats from the tree, she will learn about good and evil, and then she will be like God (Genesis 3:5). Eve does not know if it's right or wrong to listen to Satan's words. That is why Satan used the advantage to make her eat from the tree.

Supporting God: God warned Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat from the tree. Although Adam and Eve did not know what is good or evil, the warning of God's punishment is enough to make them obey His instructions (Genesis 3:3).

Answer: It is by a biblical fact that God caused this to happen.

First, Adam and Eve did not know what is good or evil. Telling them that they will die does not give them knowledge about good and evil. What gives Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil is from the special tree, not what God tells them. If God says, "Death is an evil thing." it will make the special tree pointless!

Second, Satan cannot be at fault here. Satan copied what God did, but in an opposite way; Satan told Eve to eat from the special tree. Once again, Eve has no idea if it's right or wrong to listen to Satan. We can assume this applies to God, too; Adam and Eve does not know if it's right or wrong to listen to God. Therefore, Satan is doing exactly what God does, but in a way to make Adam and Eve turn against God.

This all leads to the conclusion that God planned this out. God made Satan trick Eve into eating from the tree. I will prove to you that the biblical God controls His creations.

Evil

This leads to the question, "Why did the biblical God created evil in the first place?"

Answer: To make His creations fear Him and know He exists.

Isaiah 45:7 states that the biblical God cause/creates evil. There are those who claim that the word 'evil' in the verse does not mean 'treachery', but calamity. However, it leads to the question, "Why did the biblical God created calamity in the first place?" Regardless if the word 'evil' in the verse means treachery or calamity, the question of why the biblical God created them in the first place still remains.

However, people deny that the biblical God created evil. Instead, they believe that Satan or mankind is the cause of evil. What they don't know is that this completely contradicts the biblical God's reputation as Creator of everything! If the biblical God did not create evil, what did? If it's Satan, why did the biblical God made Satan in the first place? If it's an absence of good, does that mean that good caused/created evil?

The biblical God created evil in the first place because it was His plan. His plan is to make His creations fear him and know He exists. Isaiah 45:6 supports Isaiah 45:7, which states that God do various things (both good and evil) to make His creations know His existence. Romans 9:22 states that God wants to make His power and anger be known unto His people. Therefore, God created evil to make His creations know His existence, power and anger.

Free-Will

This leads to the final point of this topic: free-will does not exists in a biblical perspective.

Romans 9:19 ERV states a question asked by mankind. The question says, "If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?" The question states that God controls His creations. Therefore, we can assume that since God is the Creator of everything, He controls everything, too.

Now, many believe that God created evil because of free-will, for God loves us. However, it contradicts God's perfect reputation. If God is perfect in everything He does, why would He create evil in the first place if He knows the outcomes?

Romans 9:15-16 ERV says, "God said to Moses, 'I will show mercy to anyone I want to show mercy to. I will show pity to anyone I choose.' So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do."

What does all of this mean? It means that God does whatever He wants and He plans everything.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/18/2014 7:55:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM, Angelos wrote:


What does all of this mean? It means that God does whatever He wants and He plans everything.

yup...
or it means god is a human invention...
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/18/2014 7:56:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON."
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
subgenius
Posts: 124
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4/18/2014 10:07:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM, Angelos wrote:
In a biblical perspective, I have been studying the case of Adam and Eve, free-will and the reason to why evil is created.
...(snip)...
What does all of this mean? It means that God does whatever He wants and He plans everything.

I appreciate your post and the topic. This is a great topic to discuss and it is often difficult for most people to reconcile any concept of an "omnipotent" God with any concept of free-will. I believe you have made a good effort here but I would offer the following criticism at this point.
I believe some of your references are on the topic but might be misleading without their proper context. For example, the book of Romans has the rather obvious context of being written for the Gentiles, for the Romans themselves. So apart from the emphasis for monotheism this notion of "reconciliation" is being addressed in your cited chapter 9. However, Paul recognizes that this reconciliation is twofold - that the difficulty for us to reconcile, theoretically, Divine omnipotence with human free-will and responsibility - and in the book of Romans Paul focuses on the Divine. Doing so by stating how God has the right to condemn because God is always just. And that a man has no right to contend that fact (Job 40:2). Basically the argument in Romans 9 is that God has the absolute right as well as power to deal with his own creation as he pleases, and to contend this notion is presumptuous and irreverent.
Ok, that being said...one should note that this sort of objection is typically the fruit of sin. The idea being planted as a seed from frustration. Frustration because of an assumption with an improvable theory that God having a plan must surely mean that man has no agency.
You see the issue is your question itself. Even though it is an interesting intellectual exercise which has no resolve, it is an unnecessary and insulting spiritual exercise.
Consider how Paul essentially relates the notion that a defective clay pot has no right to contend with the potter.
Again, it is important to take this particular chapter in context. This particular point is specific for its audience and pretty much the only place it occurs in the Bible.
Consider other more obvious declaration for the "free-will" of man:
Galatians 6:7
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Revelation 22:12
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

So just because the consequences of our actions are according to God's will does not prevent us from having the freedom to choose.

Now, with regards to your supposition for the "creation" of Evil:

"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death"
(James 1:13"15).

A more deliberate review of Isaiah 45:6-7 shows that the necessity of God creating "good" and creating"evil" actually confirms the presence of free-will. For why create "options" if there is no ability to choose between them - this is the reasonable conclusion. This is even further noted by the tree of the knowledge and good and evil being in the garden in the first place...and likewise how we see that the "snake" did not make Eve take the fruit, but rather it was her desire upon temptation.
So, the tree is the first manifestation of man's free will...not by choosing to eat the fruit, but earlier when the choice was for obedience, for not eating the fruit.

To this end, free will exists consistently and throughout the scriptures and is fundamental to any sincere doctrine of Christianity.
subgenius
Posts: 124
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4/18/2014 10:15:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 7:56:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON."

hmmm...you seem to completely misunderstand this verse, and likely the whole chapter.
The "without any reason" is an emphasis on the notion in Job 17:9. It is actually God proving the power of His Grace to Satan. It is actually an important detail to realize when noting someone as having a character of righteousness. It is easy to accept punishment from master when one feels they deserve it, then the punishment essentially fulfills a desire...but to accept punishment without reason is a defeat for Satan.
Dwint
Posts: 47
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4/18/2014 10:36:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:15:01 AM, subgenius wrote:
At 4/18/2014 7:56:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON."

hmmm...you seem to completely misunderstand this verse, and likely the whole chapter.
The "without any reason" is an emphasis on the notion in Job 17:9. It is actually God proving the power of His Grace to Satan. It is actually an important detail to realize when noting someone as having a character of righteousness. It is easy to accept punishment from master when one feels they deserve it, then the punishment essentially fulfills a desire...but to accept punishment without reason is a defeat for Satan.

But why "battle" Satan in the first place? He doesn't even need to exist. People would still sin without Satan. God could kill Satan at any time and make sure nothing changes. This is nothing more than another primitive idea that good and evil must fight. All ancient cultures had good gods and evil gods that would battle. In Christianity, Satan is not a god, there is no actual battle between good and evil. Satan is not God's equal and serves no real purpose. The only reason Satan is in the Bible is to make the good vs evil battle possible.
Hitchens is the way!
subgenius
Posts: 124
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4/18/2014 11:26:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:36:03 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/18/2014 10:15:01 AM, subgenius wrote:
At 4/18/2014 7:56:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON."

hmmm...you seem to completely misunderstand this verse, and likely the whole chapter.
The "without any reason" is an emphasis on the notion in Job 17:9. It is actually God proving the power of His Grace to Satan. It is actually an important detail to realize when noting someone as having a character of righteousness. It is easy to accept punishment from master when one feels they deserve it, then the punishment essentially fulfills a desire...but to accept punishment without reason is a defeat for Satan.

But why "battle" Satan in the first place? He doesn't even need to exist. People would still sin without Satan. God could kill Satan at any time and make sure nothing changes. This is nothing more than another primitive idea that good and evil must fight. All ancient cultures had good gods and evil gods that would battle. In Christianity, Satan is not a god, there is no actual battle between good and evil. Satan is not God's equal and serves no real purpose. The only reason Satan is in the Bible is to make the good vs evil battle possible.

Satan is really not that prominent in the scriptures, and people tend to give him more credit than he likely deserves.
Anyway
Satan's existence is also inextricable with the notion of free-will and is quite another discussion. But God surely does not "destroy" him because of God's nature...perhaps God sees a possibility for redemption?
I agree that sin exists without Satan and the modern day emphasis on him is likely more out of convenience than any sort of doctrinal necessity. The story of Job seems to be one of the limited interactions in the Bible for Satan. Arguably the snake in the garden is Satan, but his limited "presence" in the scriptures seems to be deliberate as opposed to being necessary.

Th good v. evil battle is an inevitable consequence of free-will. This is the fundamental option. As such we see it manifest in every culture, tradition, and history. It is, as you say, primal to the human condition.

Think about it this way. If you had your own children, you likely would want to teach them about "life". You would often, especially when they are young, "command" them to do certain things and they would do them....sometimes out of fear...sometimes out of understanding...and sometimes out of love. But there would come a time when they realize they desire to "not obey" you...while this may be unsettling for you, there are times you allow it...allow for them to realize the consequences of their actions...and with this you hope they learn, hope they make choices for themselves...
now
did you create pain and suffering for them? should you have sheltered them from every possible burden? should you always and forever control their thoughts and actions? Are you their source of good and evil? Will they contend with you that you should have made all their choices for them?
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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4/18/2014 11:31:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:07:10 AM, subgenius wrote:
often difficult for most people to reconcile any concept of an "omnipotent" God with any concept of free-will.

Absolutely no idea from the get go.

You go girl.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Angelos
Posts: 30
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4/18/2014 3:13:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:07:10 AM, subgenius wrote:
- and in the book of Romans Paul focuses on the Divine. Doing so by stating how God has the right to condemn because God is always just. And that a man has no right to contend that fact (Job 40:2). Basically the argument in Romans 9 is that God has the absolute right as well as power to deal with his own creation as he pleases, and to contend this notion is presumptuous and irreverent.:

We have no rights to question the biblical God, that is true. However, this proves that we have no free-will. If we have free-will, why would it be wrong to question the biblical God?

You see the issue is your question itself. Even though it is an interesting intellectual exercise which has no resolve, it is an unnecessary and insulting spiritual exercise.:

I believe this is not insulting at all. I should have stated this before publishing the post. I am trying to make His creations understand, in a biblical perspective, why evil is created in the first place. The Scriptures provided me with the answers, which I have stated in my original post.

Consider how Paul essentially relates the notion that a defective clay pot has no right to contend with the potter.
Again, it is important to take this particular chapter in context. This particular point is specific for its audience and pretty much the only place it occurs in the Bible.:

Does that mean it only applies to the people Paul was speaking to?

Consider other more obvious declaration for the "free-will" of man:
Galatians 6:7
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.":

And the verse Paul says after that (Galatians 6:8 ERV) states, "If you live to satisfy your sinful self, the harvest you will get from that will be eternal death. But if you live to please the Spirit, the harvest from the Spirit will be eternal life."

Once again, this proves that we cannot do what we want. We can only do what the biblical God wants.

Revelation 22:12
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.":

Romans 9:15-16 ERV says, "God said to Moses, 'I will show mercy to anyone I want to show mercy to. I will show pity to anyone I choose.' So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do."

It does not matter what we do; the biblical God, having the power to control His creations, makes His own choices regardless of what we do.

So just because the consequences of our actions are according to God's will does not prevent us from having the freedom to choose.:

Then, does that mean I can choose to disobey God? Why would God make the choice of going against Him? He does not want anyone to go against Him, but to fear Him.

"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:13"15).:

Evil cannot temp God because He created evil. Having His own creations tempting Him contradicts His reputation as omnipotent. God does not tempt anyone, that is true. However, due to the fact that sin entered the world because of Adam along with the knowledge of good and evil, it is obvious that we will desire to do things that will make us disobey God. And, when we disobey Him, we are to be punished for our actions. James 3:15 supports the fact that God created evil because He wants His creations to fear Him.

A more deliberate review of Isaiah 45:6-7 shows that the necessity of God creating "good" and creating"evil" actually confirms the presence of free-will. For why create "options" if there is no ability to choose between them - this is the reasonable conclusion.:

We have the ability to choose what we want, that is true. However, just because we have the ability to choose what we want, we will face the consequences of our actions, which you have said in your post. If I have free-will, I wouldn't be punished to disobey God. Therefore, one of the reasons why God created good and evil is to prove His existence, not free-will. (Isaiah 45:6 ERV).

This is even further noted by the tree of the knowledge and good and evil being in the garden in the first place...and likewise how we see that the "snake" did not make Eve take the fruit, but rather it was her desire upon temptation.:

It's not Eve's fault for eating the fruit because she has no knowledge of good or evil. Eve was not tempted; she was tricked (Genesis 3:13 ERV). Satan tricked Eve, not tempted her. Therefore, Satan is the cause of Eve eating from the tree.

So, the tree is the first manifestation of man's free will...not by choosing to eat the fruit, but earlier when the choice was for obedience, for not eating the fruit.:

Adam and Eve obeyed God, but then they disobeyed Him. And the result was that they were punished. If Adam and Eve had free-will, then God would allow them to eat from the special tree. However, God strictly forbidden them to not eat from the special tree, for they will die if they do so.

To this end, free will exists consistently and throughout the scriptures and is fundamental to any sincere doctrine of Christianity.:

"Anything or anyone you follow will be your master. You can follow sin, or you can obey God. Following sin brings spiritual death, but obeying God makes you right with him." (Romans 6:16 ERV)

"You cannot serve two masters at the same time. You will hate one master and love the other. Or you will be loyal to one and not care about the other. You cannot serve God and Money at the same time." (Luke 16:13 ERV)
subgenius
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4/18/2014 7:08:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 3:13:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
...(snip)...
If I have free-will, I wouldn't be punished to disobey God.
...(snip)...

This sums up the error in your reasoning on this topic.
There is reason to believe or expect that having free-will somehow "frees" one from the consequences - reward or punishment - resulting from whatever choice one makes.

If you choose to submit yourself, your desires, to the Lord then you have still made that choice freely. Likewise, the scriptures teach that such a choice being freely made is the only manner by which one may please the Lord.
This is the fundamental difference with "Satan" or "evil" - whereas they would prefer you not have a choice and be forced into submission regardless of your will. God will not "force" you to choose His way, you must do that for yourself - for there is not other way to enter His gate.
Angelos
Posts: 30
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4/18/2014 9:26:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 7:08:59 PM, subgenius wrote:
There is reason to believe or expect that having free-will somehow "frees" one from the consequences - reward or punishment - resulting from whatever choice one makes.


What do you mean by free-will 'somehow frees' one from consequences? Whatever you do, the biblical God will judge you!

If you choose to submit yourself, your desires, to the Lord then you have still made that choice freely. Likewise, the scriptures teach that such a choice being freely made is the only manner by which one may please the Lord.:

That's why I agreed with you that we have the ability to choose what we want to do. However, the Scriptures states that whatever we do, we will face the consequences. We know that disobeying God is wrong, which is why we'll be punished. That is why we cannot have evil desires. Therefore, we have the ability to choose death or life. Whichever you choose, you will gain it. The death I am talking about is the 'eternal punishment'. The life I am talking about is the 'eternal life'.

However, we know the God does not want anyone to 'die' (suffer eternal punishment). Do you really think God enjoys people 'dying'? Do you really think God wants people suffer eternal punishment? No. He will do whatever He can to make His creations accept life, for it is what He wants.

And where does it say in the Scriptures that a freely made choice is the only manner that pleases the Lord?

God will not "force" you to choose His way, you must do that for yourself - for there is not other way to enter His gate.:

He does forces His creations to accept His way. Proof of how He forces His creations to accept His way is that if you do not, you will face eternal punishment. Are you really saying that free-will is the way to enter His gate? That's like saying, "I can do evil and still be accepted." And if you are saying free-will is the way to enter His gate, then Jesus Christ didn't have to die.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/19/2014 2:35:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 10:15:01 AM, subgenius wrote:
At 4/18/2014 7:56:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON."

hmmm...you seem to completely misunderstand this verse

projecting?

i didn't say anything about that verse...you did..ooops.
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/19/2014 3:18:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 7:56:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan,
Just to throw a spanner in to the dis-functioning biblical tales -

e.g. . . . . . . . . evil may not dwell with you. (Psalm 5:4) ESV Story book

&

Also fatal to Botchtowerites - . . . . . . . No one bad may reside for any time with you. (Psalm 5:4) NWT Botchtower propaganda

Hence a god engaging in personal conversation with say a naughty supernatural angel, is spurious!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/19/2014 4:26:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM, Angelos wrote:
In a biblical perspective, I have been studying the case of Adam and Eve, free-will and the reason to why evil is created. I have gathered enough supportive verses from the Scriptures to provide a conclusive answer. Not only have I read the Scriptures, but I read answers from many members of this community.

Adam & Eve

Many of us are familiar with the case of Adam and Eve's actions in eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To summarize the case, this is what happened according to the Scriptures:

1) Adam is created and Eve was created after. (Gen. 2:7, 22)
2) The biblical God told them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Otherwise, they will die. (Gen. 3:3)
3) Satan (or Lucifer) tricked Eve into eating from the Tree. (Gen. 3:4-6)
4) Adam, too, ate from the Tree. (Gen. 3:6)
5) Adam and Eve now have knowledge of Good and Evil. They hid from God when He entered the garden. (Gen. 3:7)
6) The biblical God punished Adam, Eve and Satan. (Gen. 3:14-19)

Now, who caused all of this? Is it Adam, Eve, Satan or God?

Supporting Adam and Eve: These two people did not know what is evil or good before eating from the special tree. Proof of how they have no knowledge of good or evil is by reading Genesis 2:25, which states that Adam and Eve were naked, but they were not ashamed. However, when they ate from the special tree, that's when they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:7 states that when they saw themselves naked, they gathered some fig leaves, sewed them together and wore them for clothes.

One may simply say, "God warned them about death." However, as I have said before, Adam and Eve does not know what is good or evil when they are told that they'll die if they ever eat from the special tree. If they knew death was 'evil', it contradicts Genesis 3:7. Therefore, we can assume that Adam and Eve are simply listening to what they are being told to do.

Supporting Satan: Satan knew he had an advantage to make Adam and Eve turn against God. Satan knew that Eve has no knowledge of good or evil, which is why he used trickery to make Eve eat from the tree. In fact, what Satan said to Eve is true; if Eve eats from the tree, she will learn about good and evil, and then she will be like God (Genesis 3:5). Eve does not know if it's right or wrong to listen to Satan's words. That is why Satan used the advantage to make her eat from the tree.

Supporting God: God warned Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat from the tree. Although Adam and Eve did not know what is good or evil, the warning of God's punishment is enough to make them obey His instructions (Genesis 3:3).

Answer: It is by a biblical fact that God caused this to happen.

First, Adam and Eve did not know what is good or evil. Telling them that they will die does not give them knowledge about good and evil. What gives Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil is from the special tree, not what God tells them. If God says, "Death is an evil thing." it will make the special tree pointless!

Second, Satan cannot be at fault here. Satan copied what God did, but in an opposite way; Satan told Eve to eat from the special tree. Once again, Eve has no idea if it's right or wrong to listen to Satan. We can assume this applies to God, too; Adam and Eve does not know if it's right or wrong to listen to God. Therefore, Satan is doing exactly what God does, but in a way to make Adam and Eve turn against God.

This all leads to the conclusion that God planned this out. God made Satan trick Eve into eating from the tree. I will prove to you that the biblical God controls His creations.


Evil

This leads to the question, "Why did the biblical God created evil in the first place?"

Answer: To make His creations fear Him and know He exists.

Isaiah 45:7 states that the biblical God cause/creates evil. There are those who claim that the word 'evil' in the verse does not mean 'treachery', but calamity. However, it leads to the question, "Why did the biblical God created calamity in the first place?" Regardless if the word 'evil' in the verse means treachery or calamity, the question of why the biblical God created them in the first place still remains.

However, people deny that the biblical God created evil. Instead, they believe that Satan or mankind is the cause of evil. What they don't know is that this completely contradicts the biblical God's reputation as Creator of everything! If the biblical God did not create evil, what did? If it's Satan, why did the biblical God made Satan in the first place? If it's an absence of good, does that mean that good caused/created evil?

The biblical God created evil in the first place because it was His plan. His plan is to make His creations fear him and know He exists. Isaiah 45:6 supports Isaiah 45:7, which states that God do various things (both good and evil) to make His creations know His existence. Romans 9:22 states that God wants to make His power and anger be known unto His people. Therefore, God created evil to make His creations know His existence, power and anger.

Free-Will

This leads to the final point of this topic: free-will does not exists in a biblical perspective.

Romans 9:19 ERV states a question asked by mankind. The question says, "If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?" The question states that God controls His creations. Therefore, we can assume that since God is the Creator of everything, He controls everything, too.

Now, many believe that God created evil because of free-will, for God loves us. However, it contradicts God's perfect reputation. If God is perfect in everything He does, why would He create evil in the first place if He knows the outcomes?

Romans 9:15-16 ERV says, "God said to Moses, 'I will show mercy to anyone I want to show mercy to. I will show pity to anyone I choose.' So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do."

What does all of this mean? It means that God does whatever He wants and He plans everything.

There are only two basic problems with your reasoning, and they are:

1: The initial assumption that "knowledge of good and bad" means knowledge of which is which.

It can also, and I believe does, mean the knowledge of the effects of good and bad on your life.

I believe that because understanding it that way fits in better with the overall scenario.

However the lack of the knowledge of good or bad is largely irrelevant to why Eve allowed herself to be conned.

Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.

Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack. He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.

However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.

That would have solved the whole problem there and then.
Jingram994
Posts: 211
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4/19/2014 5:40:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 4:26:02 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

There are only two basic problems with your reasoning, and they are:

1: The initial assumption that "knowledge of good and bad" means knowledge of which is which.

I assume that it does. The tree would hardly be important otherwise, no?

It can also, and I believe does, mean the knowledge of the effects of good and bad on your life.

However the lack of the knowledge of good or bad is largely irrelevant to why Eve allowed herself to be conned.

Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.

You're trying to tell me that Adam & Eve had absolutely no understanding of basic cause and effect before they ate that fruit? Then they were deliberately mentally stunted by God and *did* deserve to have those things.

Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack. He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.

However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. Trying to tell me that things can happen that he doesn't want to happen and didn't plan to happen exactly as they did is just plain ludicrous. If God didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit. If God didn't want Satan to be able to 'tempt' her into doing this, he would not have been successful in this venture. If God had wanted Adam to teach her more, Adam would have taught her more. There really is no room whatsoever for any kind of failure of planning or execution when the person you are talking about has absolute power and absolute knowledge of everything.
The fact that you are trying to imply that the situation could have been better solved by killing this woman and just giving Adam another playmate is frankly horrifying.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 5:40:25 AM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 4/19/2014 4:26:02 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

There are only two basic problems with your reasoning, and they are:

1: The initial assumption that "knowledge of good and bad" means knowledge of which is which.

I assume that it does. The tree would hardly be important otherwise, no?



It can also, and I believe does, mean the knowledge of the effects of good and bad on your life.

However the lack of the knowledge of good or bad is largely irrelevant to why Eve allowed herself to be conned.

Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.

You're trying to tell me that Adam & Eve had absolutely no understanding of basic cause and effect before they ate that fruit? Then they were deliberately mentally stunted by God and *did* deserve to have those things.


Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack. He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.

However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. Trying to tell me that things can happen that he doesn't want to happen and didn't plan to happen exactly as they did is just plain ludicrous. If God didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit. If God didn't want Satan to be able to 'tempt' her into doing this, he would not have been successful in this venture. If God had wanted Adam to teach her more, Adam would have taught her more. There really is no room whatsoever for any kind of failure of planning or execution when the person you are talking about has absolute power and absolute knowledge of everything.
The fact that you are trying to imply that the situation could have been better solved by killing this woman and just giving Adam another playmate is frankly horrifying.

If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?

I am not sure whether you have misunderstood the concept of Omniscience and omnipotence, or of morality and honour, or even both, but whilst God does have the ability to know anything he wants to know, and the power to do anything he wants to do the controlling factor is, in the first instance whether or not he wants to.

God is a highly moral being, and any moral being can be forced into a position where their options are limited by a being who has a lesser, or no, moral imperative.

God granted his creatures free will. Along with free will comes freedom of thought.

God is not like "Big Brother" of Orwellian fame and so trust also comes along with that package.

That means that God does not, even though he could, pry into our private thoughts, or exercise control over us without our permission, so ti is easy for one of his creatures to do something God does not want them to.

Satan's challenge, and the accusations against God and men that came with it gave God only three alternatives.

1: wipe everything out and start again.

2: Wipe out just Satan, Adam and Eve and starts again from there.

3: Allow Satan the opportunity to prove his case.

The problem with the first one is that it is unfair to the innocent.

The problem with the second is that whilst it removes the guilty only what is there to stop it happening again, unless God wants to act as a tyrant, which is not his style?

That only leaves the third option, which is still not entirely fair on the innocent, but can be made at least to be less unfair. It will also allow for the accumulation of sufficient evidence for God to be able to show that Satan's challenge was impossible to sustain, and therefore sentence any future rebels to instant oblivion.

Of all those alternatives, God wisely chose the 3rd, and arranged for a resurrection to compensate those who died in the meantime.

God is not a tyrant or a bully, and only wants those to serve him who are happy to do so. However out of love for those who do, God cannot allow any who don;t to be in a position to disrupt the peace that will ensue from being faithful to God, therefore they will not be allowed to enjoy the benefits of what will in the end be the only life on offer.

Simple as that.

However if you do not like what is on offer then that is your choice and you will simply bear the consequences of that decision.
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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4/19/2014 9:25:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:40:25 AM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 4/19/2014 4:26:02 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

There are only two basic problems with your reasoning, and they are:

1: The initial assumption that "knowledge of good and bad" means knowledge of which is which.

I assume that it does. The tree would hardly be important otherwise, no?



It can also, and I believe does, mean the knowledge of the effects of good and bad on your life.

However the lack of the knowledge of good or bad is largely irrelevant to why Eve allowed herself to be conned.

Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.

You're trying to tell me that Adam & Eve had absolutely no understanding of basic cause and effect before they ate that fruit? Then they were deliberately mentally stunted by God and *did* deserve to have those things.


Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack. He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.

However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. Trying to tell me that things can happen that he doesn't want to happen and didn't plan to happen exactly as they did is just plain ludicrous. If God didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit. If God didn't want Satan to be able to 'tempt' her into doing this, he would not have been successful in this venture. If God had wanted Adam to teach her more, Adam would have taught her more. There really is no room whatsoever for any kind of failure of planning or execution when the person you are talking about has absolute power and absolute knowledge of everything.
The fact that you are trying to imply that the situation could have been better solved by killing this woman and just giving Adam another playmate is frankly horrifying.

If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?

I am not sure whether you have misunderstood the concept of Omniscience and omnipotence, or of morality and honour, or even both, but whilst God does have the ability to know anything he wants to know, and the power to do anything he wants to do the controlling factor is, in the first instance whether or not he wants to.

God is a highly moral being, and any moral being can be forced into a position where their options are limited by a being who has a lesser, or no, moral imperative.

God granted his creatures free will. Along with free will comes freedom of thought.

God is not like "Big Brother" of Orwellian fame and so trust also comes along with that package.

That means that God does not, even though he could, pry into our private thoughts, or exercise control over us without our permission, so ti is easy for one of his creatures to do something God does not want them to.

Satan's challenge, and the accusations against God and men that came with it gave God only three alternatives.

1: wipe everything out and start again.

2: Wipe out just Satan, Adam and Eve and starts again from there.

3: Allow Satan the opportunity to prove his case.

The problem with the first one is that it is unfair to the innocent.

The problem with the second is that whilst it removes the guilty only what is there to stop it happening again, unless God wants to act as a tyrant, which is not his style?

That only leaves the third option, which is still not entirely fair on the innocent, but can be made at least to be less unfair. It will also allow for the accumulation of sufficient evidence for God to be able to show that Satan's challenge was impossible to sustain, and therefore sentence any future rebels to instant oblivion.

Of all those alternatives, God wisely chose the 3rd, and arranged for a resurrection to compensate those who died in the meantime.

God is not a tyrant or a bully, and only wants those to serve him who are happy to do so. However out of love for those who do, God cannot allow any who don;t to be in a position to disrupt the peace that will ensue from being faithful to God, therefore they will not be allowed to enjoy the benefits of what will in the end be the only life on offer.

Simple as that.

However if you do not like what is on offer then that is your choice and you will simply bear the consequences of that decision.

Poor old Pascal............the ultimate fall back.
Dummy it only scares believers.
Grow up.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/19/2014 9:41:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 9:25:44 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:40:25 AM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 4/19/2014 4:26:02 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

There are only two basic problems with your reasoning, and they are:

1: The initial assumption that "knowledge of good and bad" means knowledge of which is which.

I assume that it does. The tree would hardly be important otherwise, no?



It can also, and I believe does, mean the knowledge of the effects of good and bad on your life.

However the lack of the knowledge of good or bad is largely irrelevant to why Eve allowed herself to be conned.

Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.

You're trying to tell me that Adam & Eve had absolutely no understanding of basic cause and effect before they ate that fruit? Then they were deliberately mentally stunted by God and *did* deserve to have those things.


Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack. He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.

However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. Trying to tell me that things can happen that he doesn't want to happen and didn't plan to happen exactly as they did is just plain ludicrous. If God didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit. If God didn't want Satan to be able to 'tempt' her into doing this, he would not have been successful in this venture. If God had wanted Adam to teach her more, Adam would have taught her more. There really is no room whatsoever for any kind of failure of planning or execution when the person you are talking about has absolute power and absolute knowledge of everything.
The fact that you are trying to imply that the situation could have been better solved by killing this woman and just giving Adam another playmate is frankly horrifying.

If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?

I am not sure whether you have misunderstood the concept of Omniscience and omnipotence, or of morality and honour, or even both, but whilst God does have the ability to know anything he wants to know, and the power to do anything he wants to do the controlling factor is, in the first instance whether or not he wants to.

God is a highly moral being, and any moral being can be forced into a position where their options are limited by a being who has a lesser, or no, moral imperative.

God granted his creatures free will. Along with free will comes freedom of thought.

God is not like "Big Brother" of Orwellian fame and so trust also comes along with that package.

That means that God does not, even though he could, pry into our private thoughts, or exercise control over us without our permission, so ti is easy for one of his creatures to do something God does not want them to.

Satan's challenge, and the accusations against God and men that came with it gave God only three alternatives.

1: wipe everything out and start again.

2: Wipe out just Satan, Adam and Eve and starts again from there.

3: Allow Satan the opportunity to prove his case.

The problem with the first one is that it is unfair to the innocent.

The problem with the second is that whilst it removes the guilty only what is there to stop it happening again, unless God wants to act as a tyrant, which is not his style?

That only leaves the third option, which is still not entirely fair on the innocent, but can be made at least to be less unfair. It will also allow for the accumulation of sufficient evidence for God to be able to show that Satan's challenge was impossible to sustain, and therefore sentence any future rebels to instant oblivion.

Of all those alternatives, God wisely chose the 3rd, and arranged for a resurrection to compensate those who died in the meantime.

God is not a tyrant or a bully, and only wants those to serve him who are happy to do so. However out of love for those who do, God cannot allow any who don;t to be in a position to disrupt the peace that will ensue from being faithful to God, therefore they will not be allowed to enjoy the benefits of what will in the end be the only life on offer.

Simple as that.

However if you do not like what is on offer then that is your choice and you will simply bear the consequences of that decision.

Poor old Pascal............the ultimate fall back.
Dummy it only scares believers.
Grow up.

Actually believers are far from scared of it, because they know there is nothing to be afraid of apart from fear itself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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4/19/2014 9:44:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 9:41:47 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 9:25:44 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:40:25 AM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 4/19/2014 4:26:02 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

There are only two basic problems with your reasoning, and they are:

1: The initial assumption that "knowledge of good and bad" means knowledge of which is which.

I assume that it does. The tree would hardly be important otherwise, no?



It can also, and I believe does, mean the knowledge of the effects of good and bad on your life.

However the lack of the knowledge of good or bad is largely irrelevant to why Eve allowed herself to be conned.

Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.

You're trying to tell me that Adam & Eve had absolutely no understanding of basic cause and effect before they ate that fruit? Then they were deliberately mentally stunted by God and *did* deserve to have those things.


Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack. He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.

However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. Trying to tell me that things can happen that he doesn't want to happen and didn't plan to happen exactly as they did is just plain ludicrous. If God didn't want Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have eaten the fruit. If God didn't want Satan to be able to 'tempt' her into doing this, he would not have been successful in this venture. If God had wanted Adam to teach her more, Adam would have taught her more. There really is no room whatsoever for any kind of failure of planning or execution when the person you are talking about has absolute power and absolute knowledge of everything.
The fact that you are trying to imply that the situation could have been better solved by killing this woman and just giving Adam another playmate is frankly horrifying.

If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?

I am not sure whether you have misunderstood the concept of Omniscience and omnipotence, or of morality and honour, or even both, but whilst God does have the ability to know anything he wants to know, and the power to do anything he wants to do the controlling factor is, in the first instance whether or not he wants to.

God is a highly moral being, and any moral being can be forced into a position where their options are limited by a being who has a lesser, or no, moral imperative.

God granted his creatures free will. Along with free will comes freedom of thought.

God is not like "Big Brother" of Orwellian fame and so trust also comes along with that package.

That means that God does not, even though he could, pry into our private thoughts, or exercise control over us without our permission, so ti is easy for one of his creatures to do something God does not want them to.

Satan's challenge, and the accusations against God and men that came with it gave God only three alternatives.

1: wipe everything out and start again.

2: Wipe out just Satan, Adam and Eve and starts again from there.

3: Allow Satan the opportunity to prove his case.

The problem with the first one is that it is unfair to the innocent.

The problem with the second is that whilst it removes the guilty only what is there to stop it happening again, unless God wants to act as a tyrant, which is not his style?

That only leaves the third option, which is still not entirely fair on the innocent, but can be made at least to be less unfair. It will also allow for the accumulation of sufficient evidence for God to be able to show that Satan's challenge was impossible to sustain, and therefore sentence any future rebels to instant oblivion.

Of all those alternatives, God wisely chose the 3rd, and arranged for a resurrection to compensate those who died in the meantime.

God is not a tyrant or a bully, and only wants those to serve him who are happy to do so. However out of love for those who do, God cannot allow any who don;t to be in a position to disrupt the peace that will ensue from being faithful to God, therefore they will not be allowed to enjoy the benefits of what will in the end be the only life on offer.

Simple as that.

However if you do not like what is on offer then that is your choice and you will simply bear the consequences of that decision.

Poor old Pascal............the ultimate fall back.
Dummy it only scares believers.
Grow up.

Actually believers are far from scared of it, because they know there is nothing to be afraid of apart from fear itself.

Keep telling yourself that old man cos there ain't no armageddon gonna save you. LOL
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
subgenius
Posts: 124
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4/19/2014 4:01:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 9:26:53 PM, Angelos wrote:
At 4/18/2014 7:08:59 PM, subgenius wrote:
There is reason to believe or expect that having free-will somehow "frees" one from the consequences - reward or punishment - resulting from whatever choice one makes.


What do you mean by free-will 'somehow frees' one from consequences? Whatever you do, the biblical God will judge you!

My mistake, i meant to type "there is NO reason..."

If you choose to submit yourself, your desires, to the Lord then you have still made that choice freely. Likewise, the scriptures teach that such a choice being freely made is the only manner by which one may please the Lord.:

That's why I agreed with you that we have the ability to choose what we want to do. However, the Scriptures states that whatever we do, we will face the consequences. We know that disobeying God is wrong, which is why we'll be punished. That is why we cannot have evil desires. Therefore, we have the ability to choose death or life. Whichever you choose, you will gain it. The death I am talking about is the 'eternal punishment'. The life I am talking about is the 'eternal life'.
Ok, but facing consequences is not contrary to having free-will...if anything the ability to have a "consequence" affirms the existence of free-will.

However, we know the God does not want anyone to 'die' (suffer eternal punishment). Do you really think God enjoys people 'dying'? Do you really think God wants people suffer eternal punishment? No. He will do whatever He can to make His creations accept life, for it is what He wants.
I do not presume to know what God wants per se...but even though He wants that it is contrary to His nature to make you do what He wants...His nature is to allow for you to choose for yourself, but likewise, His nature is always just and as such He will always be bound to the consequences of your choice.

And where does it say in the Scriptures that a freely made choice is the only manner that pleases the Lord?
2 Cor 8:3
2 Cor 9:7 is an example...who is ever joyful about being forced to do something?
Philemon 1:14 - "But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary."
Psalm 54:6 - "I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for it is good."
Proverbs 8:10
Proverbs 18:8
2 Peter 1:10
Luke 23:25
John 7:17
John 10:18
and countless notations in the Old Testament about "free-will" offerings.
and to the counter point - Daniel 8:25


God will not "force" you to choose His way, you must do that for yourself - for there is not other way to enter His gate.:

He does forces His creations to accept His way. Proof of how He forces His creations to accept His way is that if you do not, you will face eternal punishment. Are you really saying that free-will is the way to enter His gate? That's like saying, "I can do evil and still be accepted." And if you are saying free-will is the way to enter His gate, then Jesus Christ didn't have to die.
Christ's death, the atonement, serve the purpose of justice - for which there is no loophole with God, for as stated before, His nature is just (for example, God cannot lie nor break covenants) - Christ death does nothing for you if you do not freely accept His work. And again, even though one consequence may be more appealing to you than the other does not rob you of your ability to choose between them. Many time we make decisions based upon faith and many times we make decisions based upon reason...but hopefully you are in a position where you can make your decisions based upon both.
s-anthony
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4/19/2014 5:46:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM, Angelos wrote:
In a biblical perspective, I have been studying the case of Adam and Eve, free-will and the reason to why evil is created. I have gathered enough supportive verses from the Scriptures to provide a conclusive answer. Not only have I read the Scriptures, but I read answers from many members of this community.

Adam & Eve

Many of us are familiar with the case of Adam and Eve's actions in eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To summarize the case, this is what happened according to the Scriptures:

1) Adam is created and Eve was created after. (Gen. 2:7, 22)
2) The biblical God told them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Otherwise, they will die. (Gen. 3:3)
3) Satan (or Lucifer) tricked Eve into eating from the Tree. (Gen. 3:4-6)
4) Adam, too, ate from the Tree. (Gen. 3:6)
5) Adam and Eve now have knowledge of Good and Evil. They hid from God when He entered the garden. (Gen. 3:7)
6) The biblical God punished Adam, Eve and Satan. (Gen. 3:14-19)

Now, who caused all of this? Is it Adam, Eve, Satan or God?

Supporting Adam and Eve: These two people did not know what is evil or good before eating from the special tree. Proof of how they have no knowledge of good or evil is by reading Genesis 2:25, which states that Adam and Eve were naked, but they were not ashamed. However, when they ate from the special tree, that's when they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:7 states that when they saw themselves naked, they gathered some fig leaves, sewed them together and wore them for clothes.

One may simply say, "God warned them about death." However, as I have said before, Adam and Eve does not know what is good or evil when they are told that they'll die if they ever eat from the special tree. If they knew death was 'evil', it contradicts Genesis 3:7. Therefore, we can assume that Adam and Eve are simply listening to what they are being told to do.

Supporting Satan: Satan knew he had an advantage to make Adam and Eve turn against God. Satan knew that Eve has no knowledge of good or evil, which is why he used trickery to make Eve eat from the tree. In fact, what Satan said to Eve is true; if Eve eats from the tree, she will learn about good and evil, and then she will be like God (Genesis 3:5). Eve does not know if it's right or wrong to listen to Satan's words. That is why Satan used the advantage to make her eat from the tree.

Supporting God: God warned Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat from the tree. Although Adam and Eve did not know what is good or evil, the warning of God's punishment is enough to make them obey His instructions (Genesis 3:3).

Answer: It is by a biblical fact that God caused this to happen.

First, Adam and Eve did not know what is good or evil. Telling them that they will die does not give them knowledge about good and evil. What gives Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil is from the special tree, not what God tells them. If God says, "Death is an evil thing." it will make the special tree pointless!

Second, Satan cannot be at fault here. Satan copied what God did, but in an opposite way; Satan told Eve to eat from the special tree. Once again, Eve has no idea if it's right or wrong to listen to Satan. We can assume this applies to God, too; Adam and Eve does not know if it's right or wrong to listen to God. Therefore, Satan is doing exactly what God does, but in a way to make Adam and Eve turn against God.

This all leads to the conclusion that God planned this out. God made Satan trick Eve into eating from the tree. I will prove to you that the biblical God controls His creations.


Evil

This leads to the question, "Why did the biblical God created evil in the first place?"

Answer: To make His creations fear Him and know He exists.

Isaiah 45:7 states that the biblical God cause/creates evil. There are those who claim that the word 'evil' in the verse does not mean 'treachery', but calamity. However, it leads to the question, "Why did the biblical God created calamity in the first place?" Regardless if the word 'evil' in the verse means treachery or calamity, the question of why the biblical God created them in the first place still remains.

However, people deny that the biblical God created evil. Instead, they believe that Satan or mankind is the cause of evil. What they don't know is that this completely contradicts the biblical God's reputation as Creator of everything! If the biblical God did not create evil, what did? If it's Satan, why did the biblical God made Satan in the first place? If it's an absence of good, does that mean that good caused/created evil?

The biblical God created evil in the first place because it was His plan. His plan is to make His creations fear him and know He exists. Isaiah 45:6 supports Isaiah 45:7, which states that God do various things (both good and evil) to make His creations know His existence. Romans 9:22 states that God wants to make His power and anger be known unto His people. Therefore, God created evil to make His creations know His existence, power and anger.

Free-Will

This leads to the final point of this topic: free-will does not exists in a biblical perspective.

Romans 9:19 ERV states a question asked by mankind. The question says, "If God controls what we do, why does he blame us for our sins?" The question states that God controls His creations. Therefore, we can assume that since God is the Creator of everything, He controls everything, too.

Now, many believe that God created evil because of free-will, for God loves us. However, it contradicts God's perfect reputation. If God is perfect in everything He does, why would He create evil in the first place if He knows the outcomes?

Romans 9:15-16 ERV says, "God said to Moses, 'I will show mercy to anyone I want to show mercy to. I will show pity to anyone I choose.' So God will choose anyone he decides to show mercy to, and his choice does not depend on what people want or try to do."

What does all of this mean? It means that God does whatever He wants and He plans everything.

Apart from being an archetypal story, it makes no sense: Adam and Eve exist in a world that is neither good nor evil; for, in order for good to make sense, evil must exist. So, all things are valueless (value is determined by the good it offers to the appraiser.) Without value, things are meaningless. Therefore, the story is about the birth of consciousness, being lost in a sea of nothingness only to receive one's identity with the knowledge of good and evil, or value and meaning.
Keltron
Posts: 161
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4/19/2014 5:54:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Apart from being an archetypal story, it makes no sense: Adam and Eve exist in a world that is neither good nor evil; for, in order for good to make sense, evil must exist. So, all things are valueless (value is determined by the good it offers to the appraiser.) Without value, things are meaningless. Therefore, the story is about the birth of consciousness, being lost in a sea of nothingness only to receive one's identity with the knowledge of good and evil, or value and meaning.

Exactly!
Jingram994
Posts: 211
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4/20/2014 2:05:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?

No one 'had' to die. Are you serious? God did not 'need' to punish billions of people who were not even born when this happened just because he was slighted, despite the fact that he *knew* about this ahead of time and had the power and foresight to prevent it in an effectively unlimited number of ways without 'needing' to hurt or kill anyone.

I am not sure whether you have misunderstood the concept of Omniscience and omnipotence, or of morality and honour, or even both, but whilst God does have the ability to know anything he wants to know, and the power to do anything he wants to do the controlling factor is, in the first instance whether or not he wants to.

God is a highly moral being, and any moral being can be forced into a position where their options are limited by a being who has a lesser, or no, moral imperative.

God granted his creatures free will. Along with free will comes freedom of thought.

If God doesn't know everything, he is not omniscient. If God's ability to know things is restricted (whether externally or through his own desire) by the 'free will' of his 'creations', then God's ability to just 'know' things completely stopped the moment something else made a choice. This would effectively neuter God's power, so I find it a bit odd that you are using this description of God and effectively trying to justify taking away one of the core traits that he is universally described as having just to be capable of making this one argument. As I said, if God doesn't know everything, he is not omniscient. If God has any kind of 'real' limitation on his power, he is not omnipotent. As you have not actually justified the 'moral' limitations on his power or knowledge, and as they pretty much makes the being you are describing completely different from the actual described nature of God as omnipotent and Omniscient, I am going to assume they do not exist for the purposes of this argument.

God is not like "Big Brother" of Orwellian fame and so trust also comes along with that package.

That means that God does not, even though he could, pry into our private thoughts, or exercise control over us without our permission, so ti is easy for one of his creatures to do something God does not want them to.

Satan's challenge, and the accusations against God and men that came with it gave God only three alternatives.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. There isn't anything he can't do, and implying that a less powerful creature can exert such coercive force over him is absolutely ludicrous. I am not suggesting that God 'should' have brainwashed people into being perfect and just made the situation physically impossible to happen in the first place, or that he should have just obliterated the person he knew would do this well ahead of time.
I am *pointing out* that an omniscient, omnipotent being *had* to have known about this ahead of time, and that there are an infinite number of ways he could have prevented or 'fixed' it without harming anyone or necessarily infringing on anyone's free will, at least to a great enough degree to warrant not doing so anyway.

1: wipe everything out and start again.

2: Wipe out just Satan, Adam and Eve and starts again from there.

3: Allow Satan the opportunity to prove his case.

The problem with the first one is that it is unfair to the innocent.

The problem with the second is that whilst it removes the guilty only what is there to stop it happening again, unless God wants to act as a tyrant, which is not his style?

That only leaves the third option, which is still not entirely fair on the innocent, but can be made at least to be less unfair. It will also allow for the accumulation of sufficient evidence for God to be able to show that Satan's challenge was impossible to sustain, and therefore sentence any future rebels to instant oblivion.

No, an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot be limited in his options. If God had wanted to, he could have simply prevented Satan from being able to actually do what he wanted without harming anyone, or simply changed things so that his doing so did not have unwarranted negative consequences for anyone else.
He could just as easily have allowed free will whilst preventing the sort of consequences of that free will that lead to people dying or having their own free will be infringed on by others. Those consequences are part of God's 'creation'; they do not *necessarily* have to exist if he doesn't want them to. Honestly, setting this exercise in 'real freedom' up to fail right from the start by rigging the reality the game is set in is incredibly coercive and a massive waste of time.
Angelos
Posts: 30
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4/20/2014 2:23:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 4:01:56 PM, subgenius wrote:
2 Cor 8:3
2 Cor 9:7 is an example...who is ever joyful about being forced to do something?
Philemon 1:14 - "But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary."
Psalm 54:6 - "I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for it is good."
Proverbs 8:10
Proverbs 18:8
2 Peter 1:10
Luke 23:25
John 7:17
John 10:18
and countless notations in the Old Testament about "free-will" offerings.
and to the counter point - Daniel 8:25



Very well. You have proven the existence of free-will in a biblical perspective. I am going to have to revise my articles. However, if free-will exists, God will judge us based upon our actions. Am I right on this part?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/20/2014 3:43:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
: At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.
More of your penis motivated ideology of excrement!

Eve was never ordered by Story book god not to eat from that tree, you lie! (See Gen. 2:16) propaganda

Eve didn't literally exist in Story book land then either!

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack.
The Serpent spoke only Truth, so if she was attacked by anything it was your as_hole Story book lying god!

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.
What crap you speak!

Age doesn't necessitate superiority except in as_hole patriarchal mentalities like yours!

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.
The Serpent spoke absolute Truth whilst your god the as_hole was the liar and worthy to be ' turned on '.

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?
More of your ideological excrement!

They were BOTH Created from Day 1 of their literal existence dependent on the Tree of Life to make them IMmortal = live forever!

Hence they were innately Mortal and subject to inevitable Death and Story book god thus LIED that they brought Death upon themselves through supposed sin!

As always MCB your Posts are full of lies, deceptions & your typical penis motivated BS!

Your garbage often ends with a threat yet you also claim your Story book god is a (ahem) loving god? '.

Threats are narcissistic coercion which also negates the notion of a freewill!

The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies. (WordWeb)

YOU have NO freewill either MCB because if you did then you & every other so called believer are Freely choosing to remain malignant sinners!

Why do you Freely choose to remain a malignant sinner MCB?

You remain as always a psychotic, penis motivated loser!

Your vindicated mentor & Saviour moi!
12_13
Posts: 1,364
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4/20/2014 7:10:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM, Angelos wrote:
In a biblical perspective, I have been studying the case of Adam and Eve, free-will and the reason to why evil is created...

You had few points that I disagree with:

1. I think nakedness is really not evil thing, because there is no good proof for that. Adam and Eve were ashamed of it, but it does not mean it was evil thing.

2. Evil is lack of good, it is not created directly; it begins as a result when good is rejected. It is like darkness that exists if light is off. Evil and darkness are nothing really. By now it would be good to understand that evil is really same as rejecting God or living apart from God.

3. I think there is no reason to say that eating the fruit was evil thing. It may have been stupid thing, but I think there is no reason to say that it was evil thing. Therefore there is no need to know evil and good like God to make right decision and ask for example more knowledge from God.

4. I don"t see any reason to think that death is evil thing. At least some people that want euthanasia or abortion think it as a good thing.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/20/2014 7:33:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 3:43:37 AM, Composer wrote:
: At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Even knew they had been ordered not to eat from that tree, and therefore could only be persuaded to disobey by Satan's ploy of telling her that God was lying to her and withholding something she had a right to.
More of your penis motivated ideology of excrement!

Eve was never ordered by Story book god not to eat from that tree, you lie! (See Gen. 2:16) propaganda

Eve didn't literally exist in Story book land then either!


At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Had Adam done a better job of teaching her about God, she would not have been vulnerable to that attack.
The Serpent spoke only Truth, so if she was attacked by anything it was your as_hole Story book lying god!

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
He was after all, her senior, though we have no idea by how long, and had been given that responsibility.
What crap you speak!

Age doesn't necessitate superiority except in as_hole patriarchal mentalities like yours!

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
However, the whole situation could have been sorted out somehow, even if by replacing Eve with another female, had Adam not turned on God and tried to blame God for his own failings.
The Serpent spoke absolute Truth whilst your god the as_hole was the liar and worthy to be ' turned on '.

At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?
More of your ideological excrement!

They were BOTH Created from Day 1 of their literal existence dependent on the Tree of Life to make them IMmortal = live forever!

Hence they were innately Mortal and subject to inevitable Death and Story book god thus LIED that they brought Death upon themselves through supposed sin!

As always MCB your Posts are full of lies, deceptions & your typical penis motivated BS!

Your garbage often ends with a threat yet you also claim your Story book god is a (ahem) loving god? '.

Threats are narcissistic coercion which also negates the notion of a freewill!

The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies. (WordWeb)

YOU have NO freewill either MCB because if you did then you & every other so called believer are Freely choosing to remain malignant sinners!

Why do you Freely choose to remain a malignant sinner MCB?

You remain as always a psychotic, penis motivated loser!

Your vindicated mentor & Saviour moi!


The only garbage here is yours not mine.

I do not need to threaten, though I can pass on God's promises for good or ill, as is my duty to do.

"The Good News of the Kingdom" is great news for those who wish to be faithful, but absolute disaster for those who do not..

Your choice, no-one else's. I hold no enmity towards you, merely pity.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/20/2014 7:42:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 7:10:44 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:23:44 AM, Angelos wrote:
In a biblical perspective, I have been studying the case of Adam and Eve, free-will and the reason to why evil is created...

You had few points that I disagree with:

1. I think nakedness is really not evil thing, because there is no good proof for that. Adam and Eve were ashamed of it, but it does not mean it was evil thing.


No nakedness was not evil, or God would have created them clothed.

It was merely the effect of the evil thinking which came in after they ate from the tree that made them so aware.

That is another reason that I feel it was not the knowledge of what is good and bad, because then nakedness would not have appeared a problem, but the knowledge fo the effects of good and bad.

One of it's effects is feelings of guilt.

2. Evil is lack of good, it is not created directly; it begins as a result when good is rejected. It is like darkness that exists if light is off. Evil and darkness are nothing really. By now it would be good to understand that evil is really same as rejecting God or living apart from God.

That is exactly right. Evil is anything that we allow to take us away from God's love.


3. I think there is no reason to say that eating the fruit was evil thing. It may have been stupid thing, but I think there is no reason to say that it was evil thing. Therefore there is no need to know evil and good like God to make right decision and ask for example more knowledge from God.

That's an interesting thought. The effects of doing so were certainly evil. Adam may not have made it clear to Eve just how wrong it was to disobey God, but he certainly knew.


4. I don"t see any reason to think that death is evil thing. At least some people that want euthanasia or abortion think it as a good thing.

Death is nether good nor evil, it is merely a consequence of our physical incompleteness (imperfection) brought on us by Adam's sin, and probably a direct result of the loss of the tree of life to sustain us.

It would appear from the account that there was something which that "tree of life" supplied which was needed to sustain us eternally. Losing that particular nutrient allows us to age and die.

No doubt after Armageddon the tree, or it's equivalent, will be replaced.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/20/2014 7:47:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 2:23:21 AM, Angelos wrote:
At 4/19/2014 4:01:56 PM, subgenius wrote:
2 Cor 8:3
2 Cor 9:7 is an example...who is ever joyful about being forced to do something?
Philemon 1:14 - "But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary."
Psalm 54:6 - "I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for it is good."
Proverbs 8:10
Proverbs 18:8
2 Peter 1:10
Luke 23:25
John 7:17
John 10:18
and countless notations in the Old Testament about "free-will" offerings.
and to the counter point - Daniel 8:25



Very well. You have proven the existence of free-will in a biblical perspective. I am going to have to revise my articles. However, if free-will exists, God will judge us based upon our actions. Am I right on this part?

You are perfectly correct, in fact that is the whole basis of the judgement to come, our choices.

Did we listen to his word or his people?

That will be a very important decision in this time of the end especially.

If you study the biblical record God has always provided choices, and the Gibeonites are the perfect example of that.

They were part of a people long condemned for reasons I shan't go into here, but reinforced by their opposition to God's people, and yet when they chose to sue for peace they not only got peace, but God performed one of his greatest ever miracles in protecting them from the enemies that resulted from them accepting peace with Israel.

God always gives us a choice, and is currently presenting the whole of the population of the earth with a choice that will soon result in life or permanent death for us depending on which way we choose.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/20/2014 7:53:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 2:05:47 AM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 4/19/2014 9:18:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

If Eve had been put to death, which let's face it happened anyway, and replaced by another, then no-one else would ever have had to die, so one death would have saved the billions of deaths there have been since. What is so horrifying about that?

No one 'had' to die. Are you serious? God did not 'need' to punish billions of people who were not even born when this happened just because he was slighted, despite the fact that he *knew* about this ahead of time and had the power and foresight to prevent it in an effectively unlimited number of ways without 'needing' to hurt or kill anyone.


I am not sure whether you have misunderstood the concept of Omniscience and omnipotence, or of morality and honour, or even both, but whilst God does have the ability to know anything he wants to know, and the power to do anything he wants to do the controlling factor is, in the first instance whether or not he wants to.

God is a highly moral being, and any moral being can be forced into a position where their options are limited by a being who has a lesser, or no, moral imperative.

God granted his creatures free will. Along with free will comes freedom of thought.


If God doesn't know everything, he is not omniscient. If God's ability to know things is restricted (whether externally or through his own desire) by the 'free will' of his 'creations', then God's ability to just 'know' things completely stopped the moment something else made a choice. This would effectively neuter God's power, so I find it a bit odd that you are using this description of God and effectively trying to justify taking away one of the core traits that he is universally described as having just to be capable of making this one argument. As I said, if God doesn't know everything, he is not omniscient. If God has any kind of 'real' limitation on his power, he is not omnipotent. As you have not actually justified the 'moral' limitations on his power or knowledge, and as they pretty much makes the being you are describing completely different from the actual described nature of God as omnipotent and Omniscient, I am going to assume they do not exist for the purposes of this argument.


God is not like "Big Brother" of Orwellian fame and so trust also comes along with that package.

That means that God does not, even though he could, pry into our private thoughts, or exercise control over us without our permission, so ti is easy for one of his creatures to do something God does not want them to.

Satan's challenge, and the accusations against God and men that came with it gave God only three alternatives.

God is omnipotent and omniscient. There isn't anything he can't do, and implying that a less powerful creature can exert such coercive force over him is absolutely ludicrous. I am not suggesting that God 'should' have brainwashed people into being perfect and just made the situation physically impossible to happen in the first place, or that he should have just obliterated the person he knew would do this well ahead of time.
I am *pointing out* that an omniscient, omnipotent being *had* to have known about this ahead of time, and that there are an infinite number of ways he could have prevented or 'fixed' it without harming anyone or necessarily infringing on anyone's free will, at least to a great enough degree to warrant not doing so anyway.


1: wipe everything out and start again.

2: Wipe out just Satan, Adam and Eve and starts again from there.

3: Allow Satan the opportunity to prove his case.

The problem with the first one is that it is unfair to the innocent.

The problem with the second is that whilst it removes the guilty only what is there to stop it happening again, unless God wants to act as a tyrant, which is not his style?

That only leaves the third option, which is still not entirely fair on the innocent, but can be made at least to be less unfair. It will also allow for the accumulation of sufficient evidence for God to be able to show that Satan's challenge was impossible to sustain, and therefore sentence any future rebels to instant oblivion.

No, an omnipotent, omniscient being cannot be limited in his options. If God had wanted to, he could have simply prevented Satan from being able to actually do what he wanted without harming anyone, or simply changed things so that his doing so did not have unwarranted negative consequences for anyone else.
He could just as easily have allowed free will whilst preventing the sort of consequences of that free will that lead to people dying or having their own free will be infringed on by others. Those consequences are part of God's 'creation'; they do not *necessarily* have to exist if he doesn't want them to. Honestly, setting this exercise in 'real freedom' up to fail right from the start by rigging the reality the game is set in is incredibly coercive and a massive waste of time.

No, but he can and does limit himself, that is my point.

Because of his self imposed limitations he can be forced into positions which limit the options that are, in the circumstances, available to him without offending his principles.

Which is why, in the end he had no other course of action available to him than the one he took.

As I say, self imposed limits, but limits none the less.

God is a highly moral being therefore his word is his bond and cannot be broken, for good or ill. He expects the same from us, which is why, if you study scripture enough, you will find that every promise he has ever made has been a conditional promise. If we wish to benefit from them, we have to obey the Ts and Cs, as in any contract.

Yes, the life to come will be the result of a contract between us and God, with which we will be expected to choose to comply.