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Secular government or ????

Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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4/19/2014 11:43:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Okay, I've heard the claim that this is a Christian nation (The US) many times. I would like to combat this.

Secular Government: Defined as a government which makes no affiliation or bases no laws solely on the basis of a belief set (or lack thereof).

Under god and in god we trust were added in the 50's as part of the Red Scare (It was 54 or 53. There is some discrepancy because of implementation and the date it was conceived, so one of those two years)

Freedom of religion means that you not only have the right to practice your religion, but the right to not practice all other religions. Freedom from religion is fundamental to freedom of religion.

The US is a secular nation, as in the church is not supposed to be involved in the state affairs and vice versa.

My question, if you accept that this is a secular nation, then do you think that there is a better system of religious ties (or lack of) to better the government?

If you don't think this is a secular nation, why?

If you accept this is a secular nation, and like it, then I do not care what you have to say, and you are probably wasting my time.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
anthonyhooker
Posts: 1
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7/9/2017 8:27:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 4/19/2014 11:43:48 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Okay, I've heard the claim that this is a Christian nation (The US) many times. I would like to combat this.

Secular Government: Defined as a government which makes no affiliation or bases no laws solely on the basis of a belief set (or lack thereof).

Under god and in god we trust were added in the 50's as part of the Red Scare (It was 54 or 53. There is some discrepancy because of implementation and the date it was conceived, so one of those two years)

Freedom of religion means that you not only have the right to practice your religion, but the right to not practice all other religions. Freedom from religion is fundamental to freedom of religion.

The US is a secular nation, as in the church is not supposed to be involved in the state affairs and vice versa.

My question, if you accept that this is a secular nation, then do you think that there is a better system of religious ties (or lack of) to better the government?

If you don't think this is a secular nation, why?

If you accept this is a secular nation, and like it, then I do not care what you have to say, and you are probably wasting my time.

Most people who say America is a secular government think America was founded with a complete separation of church and state. They think the founding fathers wanted the government to have nothing whatever to do with anything religious. Which is how a secular government would indeed be.

But look at what the government, and specifically the founding fathers did in the name of government.

1. George Washington
October 3, 1789
"Whereas it is the DUTY OF ALL NATIONS to (1)acknowledge the providence of Almighty God ,(2)TO OBEY HIS WILL, (3) to be grateful for His benefits, (4)and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and
Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by (5) acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Notice he says"It is the duty NATIONS," not individuals. And he list 5 things and then especially names one of them. " by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government"

He issued another one January 1, 1795. Never mind what the prayer proclamations say. And it does not even matter "which god" as many try to argue "they don't say which god!" The fact remains it is religion coming from government.

John Adams (2), James Madison (4).

Thomas Jefferson, who is the hero of secularist gave money to the Kaskaskia Indian tribes in the treaty of 1803 in article 3 :

"And whereas, The greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic church to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe THE DUTIES OF HIS OFFICE and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church. "

That comes up to nine instances that ACTUAL founders issued religious things through the government.

Samuel Chase said ""Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people."
Supreme Court of Maryland, "Runkel v. Winemiller", 4 H & McH. 276, 288, 1799

Issued by Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase as an Official Supreme Court finding.

Richard Henry Lee
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."
(Source: Richard Henry Lee,"The Letters of Richard Henry Lee, James Curtis Ballagh, editor (New York: The MacMillan Company, 1914), Vol. II, p. 411. In a letter to Colonel Mortin Pickett on March 5, 1786.)

I could go on but this should be enough.
MrDelaney
Posts: 310
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7/10/2017 2:25:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/9/2017 8:27:48 PM, anthonyhooker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 11:43:48 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Okay, I've heard the claim that this is a Christian nation (The US) many times. I would like to combat this.

Secular Government: Defined as a government which makes no affiliation or bases no laws solely on the basis of a belief set (or lack thereof).

Under god and in god we trust were added in the 50's as part of the Red Scare (It was 54 or 53. There is some discrepancy because of implementation and the date it was conceived, so one of those two years)

Freedom of religion means that you not only have the right to practice your religion, but the right to not practice all other religions. Freedom from religion is fundamental to freedom of religion.

The US is a secular nation, as in the church is not supposed to be involved in the state affairs and vice versa.

My question, if you accept that this is a secular nation, then do you think that there is a better system of religious ties (or lack of) to better the government?

If you don't think this is a secular nation, why?

If you accept this is a secular nation, and like it, then I do not care what you have to say, and you are probably wasting my time.

Most people who say America is a secular government think America was founded with a complete separation of church and state. They think the founding fathers wanted the government to have nothing whatever to do with anything religious. Which is how a secular government would indeed be.

But look at what the government, and specifically the founding fathers did in the name of government.

1. George Washington
October 3, 1789
"Whereas it is the DUTY OF ALL NATIONS to (1)acknowledge the providence of Almighty God ,(2)TO OBEY HIS WILL, (3) to be grateful for His benefits, (4)and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and
Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by (5) acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Notice he says"It is the duty NATIONS," not individuals. And he list 5 things and then especially names one of them. " by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government"

He issued another one January 1, 1795. Never mind what the prayer proclamations say. And it does not even matter "which god" as many try to argue "they don't say which god!" The fact remains it is religion coming from government.

John Adams (2), James Madison (4).

Thomas Jefferson, who is the hero of secularist gave money to the Kaskaskia Indian tribes in the treaty of 1803 in article 3 :

"And whereas, The greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic church to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe THE DUTIES OF HIS OFFICE and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church. "

That comes up to nine instances that ACTUAL founders issued religious things through the government.

Samuel Chase said ""Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people."
Supreme Court of Maryland, "Runkel v. Winemiller", 4 H & McH. 276, 288, 1799

Issued by Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase as an Official Supreme Court finding.

Richard Henry Lee
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."
(Source: Richard Henry Lee,"The Letters of Richard Henry Lee, James Curtis Ballagh, editor (New York: The MacMillan Company, 1914), Vol. II, p. 411. In a letter to Colonel Mortin Pickett on March 5, 1786.)

I could go on but this should be enough.

I'm not sure we can claim for certain that the government was intended to be secular, but we can definitely claim it was not intended to be a Christian government.

The Treaty of Tripoli clearly stated:
"the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

That was signed in 1796 by John Adams and ratified by the senate without debate, unanimously.

The founding fathers each had their own religious beliefs for certain, but it's hard to ignore just how clear that statement is in regards to Christianity specifically.

But like I said (and as anthony listed) the options are not simply Christian or secular.
lotsoffun
Posts: 2,007
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7/12/2017 3:59:39 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 4/19/2014 11:43:48 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Okay, I've heard the claim that this is a Christian nation (The US) many times. I would like to combat this.

Secular Government: Defined as a government which makes no affiliation or bases no laws solely on the basis of a belief set (or lack thereof).

Under god and in god we trust were added in the 50's as part of the Red Scare (It was 54 or 53. There is some discrepancy because of implementation and the date it was conceived, so one of those two years)

Freedom of religion means that you not only have the right to practice your religion, but the right to not practice all other religions. Freedom from religion is fundamental to freedom of religion.

The US is a secular nation, as in the church is not supposed to be involved in the state affairs and vice versa.

My question, if you accept that this is a secular nation, then do you think that there is a better system of religious ties (or lack of) to better the government?

If you don't think this is a secular nation, why?

If you accept this is a secular nation, and like it, then I do not care what you have to say, and you are probably wasting my time.

Secularism is a huge step forward for mankind. Th U.S. is a nation founded on Judaeo/Christian values. This is the best the world has. I don't mean the U.S. but secularism and Judaeo/Christian values. Islam? No F#cking way. It is stuck in hell.