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If God exists

Cerebral_Narcissist
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2/4/2010 5:11:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If the Judaeo-Christian God actually existed, would he even be worthy of our worship?

This being created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge and therefore intention that they would violate his laws and he would punish them with an existence of suffering. Not only that but he also hold their children personally responsible for the crime.

Not to mention the flooding of the earth, the whole immolation of sodom, the demand to execute homosexuals.

Surely if the existence of such being were to be confirmed we should embrace his counter-part.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 5:42:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/4/2010 5:11:04 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If the Judaeo-Christian God actually existed, would he even be worthy of our worship?

This being created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge and therefore intention that they would violate his laws and he would punish them with an existence of suffering. Not only that but he also hold their children personally responsible for the crime.

Not to mention the flooding of the earth, the whole immolation of sodom, the demand to execute homosexuals.

Surely if the existence of such being were to be confirmed we should embrace his counter-part.


In philosophy today we did some work on this. I understand that if fatelism exists of deteriminism exists then God being all knowing would know that there will be evil ect...

We we given a arcitcal and it says as it quotes, "How can I be free and responsible if God has already chosen what I am going to do?"

This arctical does not even consider that possibility of, "How can I be unfree and unresponsible if God has already chosen what I am going to do?"

God knows what is to come, but what concerns us is that we do not. No one likes to be responsible of how much they drink, whether they can have sex before marrage and so on. So people choose the doubting option.

People choose to remain in their state of sinfulness and they use the excuse, "Well if God did exist and there is such thing as determinism then I will just put myself under Hims power."

Then do so and accept Christ!
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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2/4/2010 10:01:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:11:04 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If the Judaeo-Christian God actually existed, would he even be worthy of our worship?

This being created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge and therefore intention that they would violate his laws and he would punish them with an existence of suffering. Not only that but he also hold their children personally responsible for the crime.

Not to mention the flooding of the earth, the whole immolation of sodom, the demand to execute homosexuals.

Surely if the existence of such being were to be confirmed we should embrace his counter-part.

You should read the books 'Wizards First Rule', 'Stone of tears' and 'blood of the fold'. The auther is an athiest but I feel he very much covers the idea well enough in his main characters view, Richard Rhal, about prophecy. Though Prophocy exist in Richards world he does not let what it say's he will do determine what he will do. he is the balnce of free will to prophacy.

It is odd that if you know these people are going to go wrong why make them to start with. well I think it indicates a few things ethier
1) you are aware they can be salvaged
2) you are determined to make something greater than the animals even though you know this creature will use free will the wrong way.
3) In truth your forknowledge of how these creatures will go long has been exagerated by others and in fact you understand that there is an even chance they will do the right thing. So you make them and practice something called 'hope'.
4) because of quantim physics and 'scrimgoers cat' the creatures adam and eve enevitably will sin with there free will but they will also not sin. thus you have two universes and you made them for the good one and tolorate the other, doing what you can to salvage it, for you wish to waist nothing.

As for your thoughts on exucution Gay's, if he is real then we must notice that unlike us, the people from the times of leviticus were givin everything, they didnt have to belive without seeing, they got to see there god part water, spead plauges, ect... all that awsome stuff that we have been denied. And when you are given more, more is expected of you and because of that, consiquences are greater.

Plus, seeing as your all the people destroyed by his flood were given life by him, its not the same if I took your life. I could not justify why I would have any right to take your life so if I did it would, you know, wrong. but if God ended your life he hasnt taken something that wasnt his to start with, because it is his. Like us, those people were not garenteed tomarow, it wasnt there right to futher exist in those day's, if he had let them live, then it would have been a blessing, like a landlord giving you another month to come up with rent even though he can call the cops to throw you out.

Now the land lord analagy is not so perfect that it can be applied in any greater degree, so please dont get picky over it.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/4/2010 11:19:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 10:01:46 AM, Marauder wrote:
It is odd that if you know these people are going to go wrong why make them to start with. well I think it indicates a few things ethier
1) you are aware they can be salvaged
No you arent. If they are predestinged, then the ones that are salvaged, are salvaged, and the ones that are not, are not.
2) you are determined to make something greater than the animals even though you know this creature will use free will the wrong way.
Again, free will is utterly useless if you know who will choose what.
3) In truth your forknowledge of how these creatures will go long has been exagerated by others and in fact you understand that there is an even chance they will do the right thing. So you make them and practice something called 'hope'.
There is no even chance to choose a path, because the path is already chosen.
4) because of quantim physics and 'scrimgoers cat' the creatures adam and eve enevitably will sin with there free will but they will also not sin. thus you have two universes and you made them for the good one and tolorate the other, doing what you can to salvage it, for you wish to waist nothing.
What does Quantum physics and Schrodingers Cat have to do with anything.

As for your thoughts on exucution Gay's, if he is real then we must notice that unlike us, the people from the times of leviticus were givin everything, they didnt have to belive without seeing, they got to see there god part water, spead plauges, ect... all that awsome stuff that we have been denied. And when you are given more, more is expected of you and because of that, consiquences are greater.

Thats a lie. We know from the story of Lazarus, where Lazarus asks Abraham for a drop of water, and when Abraham refuses, and Lazarus asks to be sent so that his brothers may know that Hell is real and that they may forgoe being sent there, and Abrahams reply is along the lines of "No, they have Moses and the Prophets to tell them of what is true, and if they do not heed the prophets and their words, then they will go to hell".

Therefore, the people of leviticus were not able to see or hear or talk to God or see the miracles, and instead, they had to rely on the word of the different prophets of God to tell them of what happened. So they were not given more, and therefore your argument fails.

Plus, seeing as your all the people destroyed by his flood were given life by him, its not the same if I took your life. I could not justify why I would have any right to take your life so if I did it would, you know, wrong. but if God ended your life he hasnt taken something that wasnt his to start with, because it is his. Like us, those people were not garenteed tomarow, it wasnt there right to futher exist in those day's, if he had let them live, then it would have been a blessing, like a landlord giving you another month to come up with rent even though he can call the cops to throw you out.
Actually, no. If youre going to use the Landlord analogy, youve basically made the argument that the Landlord is free to throw you out at any time, with any excuse, ranging from "I felt like kicking you out" to "You looked at me funny and therefore, begone". And i dont see that as a valid argument at all, and i dont think that the landlord has the right to kick out someone who had always paid their rent on due and was generally a good person.

Now the land lord analagy is not so perfect that it can be applied in any greater degree, so please dont get picky over it.

Then dont use it. Simple enough.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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2/4/2010 11:23:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:11:04 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If the Judaeo-Christian God actually existed, would he even be worthy of our worship?

This being created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge and therefore intention that they would violate his laws and he would punish them with an existence of suffering. Not only that but he also hold their children personally responsible for the crime.

I am very sleepy so sorry that I am only replying to one part. *yawn

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
http://www.lds.org...
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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2/4/2010 12:14:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 11:19:07 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/4/2010 10:01:46 AM, Marauder wrote:
It is odd that if you know these people are going to go wrong why make them to start with. well I think it indicates a few things ethier
1) you are aware they can be salvaged
No you arent. If they are predestinged, then the ones that are salvaged, are salvaged, and the ones that are not, are not.
predestination can not coincide with free will, so if there is no free will then adam did not sin because it was not his choice. Just because God can percive what will happen as if it already had and is happining does not mean that fate is unavoidable because in some sense God still has to live in time for that to happen that way, Because you are suggesting he would be confined to what has happened in the futuer the same way we cannot do anything about the past because we live in the present. But God does not live in time.
2) you are determined to make something greater than the animals even though you know this creature will use free will the wrong way.
Again, free will is utterly useless if you know who will choose what.
I just ment He must take the sacrifice of letting these creatures do the wrong thing as worth in trade with some pro's he feels comes out of the creation.
3) In truth your forknowledge of how these creatures will go long has been exagerated by others and in fact you understand that there is an even chance they will do the right thing. So you make them and practice something called 'hope'.
There is no even chance to choose a path, because the path is already chosen.
Theory three means that very assumption must be wrong.
4) because of quantim physics and 'scrimgoers cat' the creatures adam and eve enevitably will sin with there free will but they will also not sin. thus you have two universes and you made them for the good one and tolorate the other, doing what you can to salvage it, for you wish to waist nothing.
What does Quantum physics and Schrodingers Cat have to do with anything.
Schrodingers Cat is both dead and alive, So adam and eve both took the forbidden fruit and did not take it. in some alternate universe with a different quantim phase adam and eve's decendants live in peace because no one has ever sinned.
Gosh more people need to watch star treck!


As for your thoughts on exucution Gay's, if he is real then we must notice that unlike us, the people from the times of leviticus were givin everything, they didnt have to belive without seeing, they got to see there god part water, spead plauges, ect... all that awsome stuff that we have been denied. And when you are given more, more is expected of you and because of that, consiquences are greater.

Thats a lie. We know from the story of Lazarus, where Lazarus asks Abraham for a drop of water, and when Abraham refuses, and Lazarus asks to be sent so that his brothers may know that Hell is real and that they may forgoe being sent there, and Abrahams reply is along the lines of "No, they have Moses and the Prophets to tell them of what is true, and if they do not heed the prophets and their words, then they will go to hell".

Therefore, the people of leviticus were not able to see or hear or talk to God or see the miracles, and instead, they had to rely on the word of the different prophets of God to tell them of what happened. So they were not given more, and therefore your argument fails.

Moses put his staff in the sea and it divided. then all these people from levitical times walked right through it. thats more than I've ever been givin on mirical count. For 40 years they ate something called 'mana' that just apeared on the ground in the morning and lived of it. thats another level of obviously supernatural that I've never been permited to experince.
though these people were given more than we it doesnt go against the Lazarus story but rather reinforces it. they had all these things and just like abraham said in Jesuses parable they stilled sinned and strayed and all that kind of stuff. But they did it in better circumstances so consequenses would have a related difference

Plus, seeing as your all the people destroyed by his flood were given life by him, its not the same if I took your life. I could not justify why I would have any right to take your life so if I did it would, you know, wrong. but if God ended your life he hasnt taken something that wasnt his to start with, because it is his. Like us, those people were not garenteed tomarow, it wasnt there right to futher exist in those day's, if he had let them live, then it would have been a blessing, like a landlord giving you another month to come up with rent even though he can call the cops to throw you out.
Actually, no. If youre going to use the Landlord analogy, youve basically made the argument that the Landlord is free to throw you out at any time, with any excuse, ranging from "I felt like kicking you out" to "You looked at me funny and therefore, begone". And i dont see that as a valid argument at all, and i dont think that the landlord has the right to kick out someone who had always paid their rent on due and was generally a good person.

Now the land lord analagy is not so perfect that it can be applied in any greater degree, so please dont get picky over it.

Then dont use it. Simple enough.

Do you have better analogy for 'Its his to take and still be just' or 'your life is on loan, you dont have a right to longer use'?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/4/2010 2:40:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 12:14:51 PM, Marauder wrote:
predestination can not coincide with free will, so if there is no free will then adam did not sin because it was not his choice. Just because God can percive what will happen as if it already had and is happining does not mean that fate is unavoidable because in some sense God still has to live in time for that to happen that way, Because you are suggesting he would be confined to what has happened in the futuer the same way we cannot do anything about the past because we live in the present. But God does not live in time.

Again this utterly fails to address the point.

And i can show the fallacy of your argument with one simple question.

You said that this doesnt mean that fate is unavoidable. Therefore my question to you, is it possible to avoid fate?

I just ment He must take the sacrifice of letting these creatures do the wrong thing as worth in trade with some pro's he feels comes out of the creation.

Which addresses my argument, how?

Theory three means that very assumption must be wrong.

No, it doesnt, and this is the logical contradiction that exists with free will and omnipotence. This is why your argument fails.

Schrodingers Cat is both dead and alive, So adam and eve both took the forbidden fruit and did not take it. in some alternate universe with a different quantim phase adam and eve's decendants live in peace because no one has ever sinned.
Gosh more people need to watch star treck!

First of all, youre basically making an argument for parallel universes. Please prove that scientifically.

Secondly, Fail. Schrodingers cat is a paradox, and paradoxes are illogical and fallacios by their very definition. your application of Schrodingers cat, is the same as someone who says "According to Schrodingers cat, my money both exists and doesnt exist at the same time." Sorry, but no.

Moses put his staff in the sea and it divided. then all these people from levitical times walked right through it. thats more than I've ever been givin on mirical count. For 40 years they ate something called 'mana' that just apeared on the ground in the morning and lived of it. thats another level of obviously supernatural that I've never been permited to experince.

First of all, the levitical laws shouldve been applied until Jesus Christ came and changed the laws. Therefore, by sheer practicality, people who followed the levitical laws couldnt all have witnessed Moses, unless everyone lived for 2000 years between the time Moses was alive and Jesus Christ was born. Your argument fails.

Secondly, the generation after Moses alone is enough to disprove your claim. Fail.

though these people were given more than we it doesnt go against the Lazarus story but rather reinforces it. they had all these things and just like abraham said in Jesuses parable they stilled sinned and strayed and all that kind of stuff. But they did it in better circumstances so consequenses would have a related difference

First of all, no. If the miracles were supposedly the proof that these people needed, then Lazarus being resurrected and going to his brothers to tell them that Hell is real, should have been no different than Moses parting the red sea. Both are miracles. Infact, the real appication of Lazarus and Abraham is along the lines of Doubting Thomas, were people believe simply due to faith and reading and being told that these things occured, rather than actually having seen them first hand. That alone crushes your argument. Fail.

Secondly, if you are correct, then the story would imply that the other prophets that Abraham mentions in the story were also going around doing miracles. Which is fine, because Jesus himself said that people will come and do even greater miracles than he. However, that would mean that there should be no reason why miracle are not occuring today. Your argument fails no matter which way you look at it.

Do you have better analogy for 'Its his to take and still be just' or 'your life is on loan, you dont have a right to longer use'?

No, because i dont find "I brought you into this world and i can take you out", as being moral, or just, or anything of the sort. Which is why all efforts to create a sufficient analogy to describe this, fails, because in all other instances, it is utterly immoral and unjust and unfair.
jharry
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2/7/2010 9:22:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:11:04 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If the Judaeo-Christian God actually existed, would he even be worthy of our worship?

This being created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge and therefore intention that they would violate his laws and he would punish them with an existence of suffering. Not only that but he also hold their children personally responsible for the crime.

Not to mention the flooding of the earth, the whole immolation of sodom, the demand to execute homosexuals.

Surely if the existence of such being were to be confirmed we should embrace his counter-part.

I guess I would answer yes. If this God exist then he made us. He does what He wills with us. We have no choice in the matter. He flooded the earth? He made the earth and has the power to flood it. He created us? He says don't poke around in your brothers butt, I say "ok". What else could you say? "No, I'm greater then you?" He wiped out a city? Seriously? If there really is a God then there really is a Heaven. If you knew there was a God without a doubt you would actually turn down Heaven to satisfy your ego? Really really?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/7/2010 9:26:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 9:22:44 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/4/2010 5:11:04 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If the Judaeo-Christian God actually existed, would he even be worthy of our worship?

This being created Adam and Eve with the foreknowledge and therefore intention that they would violate his laws and he would punish them with an existence of suffering. Not only that but he also hold their children personally responsible for the crime.

Not to mention the flooding of the earth, the whole immolation of sodom, the demand to execute homosexuals.

Surely if the existence of such being were to be confirmed we should embrace his counter-part.

I guess I would answer yes. If this God exist then he made us. He does what He wills with us. We have no choice in the matter. He flooded the earth? He made the earth and has the power to flood it. He created us? He says don't poke around in your brothers butt, I say "ok". What else could you say? "No, I'm greater then you?" He wiped out a city? Seriously? If there really is a God then there really is a Heaven. If you knew there was a God without a doubt you would actually turn down Heaven to satisfy your ego? Really really?

take it to a smaller scale. say your dad is a real jerk, beats your mom, yells constantly, makes everyone in your house miserable. in short: cruel guy. do you love him? should you love him? if your best friend was living in that environment would you tell him to stay and love his father because his father made him?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
jharry
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2/7/2010 9:44:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 9:26:19 PM, belle wrote:

take it to a smaller scale. say your dad is a real jerk, beats your mom, yells constantly, makes everyone in your house miserable. in short: cruel guy. do you love him? should you love him? if your best friend was living in that environment would you tell him to stay and love his father because his father made him?

Well, that is hard to do when the topic is God. My father and mother gave me the flesh that I'm in right now, they didn't create me or give me life. I made those statements under the pretense of this thread. If God really exists. God gave me my life, and I have a certain dignity because of that.

And for fact my father was and is a drunk. He did beat my mother, and us when we tried to stop him. I stayed for the love of my mother and siblings, it was better for me to take the beatings instead of them. And you know what? I thank God for those beatings and an awful father. I now have three healthy, very smart happy children. I have a nice home. We lived in a share cropper house as a kid. I have nice vehicles. We had a old Ford truck that we had to ride in the back of, rain or shine. My children have college educations waiting on them when the get ready and choose to go. I don't have to tell you about education when I was a kid. Do you know why all this happened. In my experiences as a father and husband I have learned to do the exact opposite of what my father did. And it has worked great so far. And I'm tough as nails, I can do anything I put my mind too (except math, but that hasn't slowed me down much, oh yeah, and grammar/spelling) and I have done it all on my own. So yes I would encourage some one to stay if they have the grit. If you don't, run. I don't have rose colored glass, I've seen the evil (or whatever you call it) in people. I know simple truths. Life's a b1tch and then you die.

Now back to God. It's hard to equate God with my earthly father. If God exists then there aint no running away from Him. If I believe He doesn't exist then I can run away. But if there were proof beyond a shadow of a doubt then how could do anything except what He wants you to. I've always thought this was a selfish little argument. but that's just my opinion.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
belle
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2/7/2010 9:47:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 9:44:45 PM, jharry wrote:

Now back to God. It's hard to equate God with my earthly father. If God exists then there aint no running away from Him. If I believe He doesn't exist then I can run away. But if there were proof beyond a shadow of a doubt then how could do anything except what He wants you to. I've always thought this was a selfish little argument. but that's just my opinion.

so even if he is a cruel tyrant, you should follow him in all things? because he created the universe? and is the cause of all the suffering in your life? (indirectly at least).

but no authority other than god is subject to this reverence?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
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2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:04:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 9:47:38 PM, belle wrote:
At 2/7/2010 9:44:45 PM, jharry wrote:

Now back to God. It's hard to equate God with my earthly father. If God exists then there aint no running away from Him. If I believe He doesn't exist then I can run away. But if there were proof beyond a shadow of a doubt then how could do anything except what He wants you to. I've always thought this was a selfish little argument. but that's just my opinion.

so even if he is a cruel tyrant, you should follow him in all things? because he created the universe? and is the cause of all the suffering in your life? (indirectly at least).

but no authority other than god is subject to this reverence?

And in the end if God exists all that wouldn't matter. I can defend what you call suffering but we are talking about if God really exists and we have proof. Created the universe, can you do that? If this deity has this power how could you question it? The suffering I dealt with at the hands of my father has made me a better man in many many ways. I still talk to my father, I still give him respect. Do you want to know why? Because I'm commanded to. That is my faith and my faith alone. I could never call another human to that kind of faith. I don't have that authority. But agian, that is just me.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:05:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain

Like I said. If God exists then would you actually fight Him? You would choose Hell or your pride and ego? Just a simple honest question, please don't take as an insult.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/7/2010 10:17:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:05:57 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain

Like I said. If God exists then would you actually fight Him? You would choose Hell or your pride and ego? Just a simple honest question, please don't take as an insult.

so basically, worship god cause he has power over you and you're scared sh.tless of him? sounds like an awesome guy!
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:19:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain

Here is another question that has always plagued me. I know for my self that if I could throw off the "chains" of false belief in a God that only seems to hate me then I wouldn't feel the need to constantly attack the false belief or the people that believe that way. Unless I was still trying to convince myself, and gather to people that believe as I do so I could in some way reinforce my decision. Now please don't take that the wrong way, I mean no insult by that. I have a habit of being brutally honest and saying what I'm thinking. I've been wrong before. But it seems to me that if I no longer believed I wouldn't give a damn about what my money says. I would be too busy blowing it on booze, drugs and women. I would think I wouldn't matter to me any more. It wouldn't matter to me because I would have no reason to care about it. A Christian fights hard to keep God in America because he believes it matters. Why does an Atheist fight so hard to get rid of a God that they don't believe in? Unless it's a huge ego and pride that causes him to not believe in the first place and those urges have to be forced on everyone else also. Personally I don't care if you don't believe. If anyone has never heard of Jesus on this site then I would care. But I have a feeling that most of the Atheists here either came from Theist homes or they have studied the Word more then me to try and defeat it. I think no less of an Atheist then I do the Christian that is a liar and a cheat. They both have a chance, they just have to choose, and until the last day I'm in NO place to judge ANYONE for ANYTHING. Some of my best friends don't believe, some of my worst enemies claim Jesus in their lives. We are all human and deserve certain respects because of that.
but, that is just my opinion.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GeoLaureate8
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2/7/2010 10:23:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:05:57 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain

Like I said. If God exists then would you actually fight Him?

The question is does he deserve to be worshiped. Of course, if a ruthless dictator demanded that I worship him and used force with his fascist regime, then should I fight him? Probably not. Does he deserve to be worshiped? No.

You would choose Hell or your pride and ego?

Would I rather be a servant in Heaven or free in Hell? I'd prefer Hell. What's worse than being a slave to a celestial dictator for eternity?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:28:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:17:31 PM, belle wrote:
At 2/7/2010 10:05:57 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain

Like I said. If God exists then would you actually fight Him? You would choose Hell or your pride and ego? Just a simple honest question, please don't take as an insult.

so basically, worship god cause he has power over you and you're scared sh.tless of him? sounds like an awesome guy!

Again. I don't see how any of that would matter. Now please don't think that I agree with what you say about Him. I was simply commenting on the relevance of the argument. Am I wrong about the last sentence?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:33:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:23:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/7/2010 10:05:57 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/7/2010 9:50:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No, he does not deserve to be worshiped. No one does, especially Yahweh.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins

"[A God] who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!" - Mark Twain

Like I said. If God exists then would you actually fight Him?

The question is does he deserve to be worshiped. Of course, if a ruthless dictator demanded that I worship him and used force with his fascist regime, then should I fight him? Probably not. Does he deserve to be worshiped? No.

You would choose Hell or your pride and ego?

Would I rather be a servant in Heaven or free in Hell? I'd prefer Hell. What's worse than being a slave to a celestial dictator for eternity?

And that is why we have a choice, I believe. If that is your choice I respect it and wish you good luck with it. And I would still defend your life it came down to it. I would even give up my life for you if it came down to that. I would even say kill me, instead of him. I would rather die and go onto what I believe is waiting for me then to see you die and go onto what I believe is waiting for you with what you say and believe. I would beg God at His feet that He gives you more time. but again, that is just me. But I think it is pointless to shove Him down your throat until you feel like throwing up, that is counter productive. I would hope and pray if that day ever comes, you would see that kind of sacrifice and you might begin to think about it a little more. But that is just my opinion.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:35:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Now if you would like I would be more then happy to address to the best of my abilities any wrong you believe God has done to His people. but that is totally up to you, you may have had this conversation with others in the past. Just an offer. But not tonight, I must sleep soon.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GeoLaureate8
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2/7/2010 10:36:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:19:11 PM, jharry wrote:
Here is another question that has always plagued me. I know for my self that if I could throw off the "chains" of false belief in a God that only seems to hate me then I wouldn't feel the need to constantly attack the false belief or the people that believe that way.

So if the popular belief was that blacks are an inferior race and deserve to be enslaved, you wouldn't feel the need to correct this false and immoral belief?

Unless I was still trying to convince myself, and gather to people that believe as I do so I could in some way reinforce my decision. Now please don't take that the wrong way, I mean no insult by that. I have a habit of being brutally honest and saying what I'm thinking.

I don't know how anyone could think that recruiting others to believe like them would in any way strengthen that belief.

I've been wrong before. But it seems to me that if I no longer believed I wouldn't give a damn about what my money says. I would be too busy blowing it on booze, drugs and women.

See what religion has done to your mind? You need religion to keep you in line and know no other way to live moral without religion. This is one of the reasons why I attack and try to eradicate fallacious religious beliefs.

I would think I wouldn't matter to me any more. It wouldn't matter to me because I would have no reason to care about it.

Again, absence of religion =/= nihilism.

A Christian fights hard to keep God in America because he believes it matters. Why does an Atheist fight so hard to get rid of a God that they don't believe in?

Religion enslaves the mind, and by fighting religion, we are freeing minds from oppressive beliefs that enslave the masses.

Unless it's a huge ego and pride that causes him to not believe in the first place and those urges have to be forced on everyone else also. Personally I don't care if you don't believe.

You might not care, but the Bible says that I ought to be stoned for not believing and sent to hell to burn for eternity. If people believe the Bible is right (as I assume any Christian would), then the majority of the population feels that I ought to be stoned to death and burn for eternity. You don't see this as a problematic belief?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jharry
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2/7/2010 10:57:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:36:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/7/2010 10:19:11 PM, jharry wrote:
Here is another question that has always plagued me. I know for my self that if I could throw off the "chains" of false belief in a God that only seems to hate me then I wouldn't feel the need to constantly attack the false belief or the people that believe that way.

So if the popular belief was that blacks are an inferior race and deserve to be enslaved, you wouldn't feel the need to correct this false and immoral belief?

God doesn't see slave or free. He sees us. He doesn't think it matters whether you are free or in slavery. He doesn't care what color you are, people do.

Unless I was still trying to convince myself, and gather to people that believe as I do so I could in some way reinforce my decision. Now please don't take that the wrong way, I mean no insult by that. I have a habit of being brutally honest and saying what I'm thinking.

I don't know how anyone could think that recruiting others to believe like them would in any way strengthen that belief.

You may not know how, but it could be possible.


I've been wrong before. But it seems to me that if I no longer believed I wouldn't give a damn about what my money says. I would be too busy blowing it on booze, drugs and women.

See what religion has done to your mind? You need religion to keep you in line and know no other way to live moral without religion. This is one of the reasons why I attack and try to eradicate fallacious religious beliefs.

If I didn't believe in God then morals wouldn't matter to me. I wouldn't bother following His commandments. Is drinking against the law? Is having sex with hundreds of women? I would have no reason to care about how I live my life in those things. I could abort children, there is no law against that. I think you are talking about some theory or thought. I'm talking about common sense.
nihilism

I would think I wouldn't matter to me any more. It wouldn't matter to me because I would have no reason to care about it.

Again, absence of religion =/= nihilism.

Again. I aint talking about that. I know some people can me just as if not "moral" as I. You may see religion as a book of rules. I see it as a way of life. And that life is LOVE.


A Christian fights hard to keep God in America because he believes it matters. Why does an Atheist fight so hard to get rid of a God that they don't believe in?

Religion enslaves the mind, and by fighting religion, we are freeing minds from oppressive beliefs that enslave the masses.

I'm sorry but that is simply your opinion. That is what it is to you, personally. It is different to me. If I choose to be "enslaved" then why do you care? I don't like to complain about things until the effect me. I would feel I would be extremely arrogant if I did. But again, that is just me.


Unless it's a huge ego and pride that causes him to not believe in the first place and those urges have to be forced on everyone else also. Personally I don't care if you don't believe.

You might not care, but the Bible says that I ought to be stoned for not believing and sent to hell to burn for eternity. If people believe the Bible is right (as I assume any Christian would), then the majority of the population feels that I ought to be stoned to death and burn for eternity. You don't see this as a problematic belief?

Will you walk outside today and be stoned? I don't believe you should be stoned? Who said they were going to stone you? Point them out so I can stand in your place, seriously. I know I can't throw a single stone at you, that is what Jesus said. I think you skipped over the last half of the Book my friend.

Why should you be stoned? In your own opinion. What are you referring to?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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2/7/2010 11:03:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think I may have touched a nerve with my questions, I apologize. I would hate to cause you to hate God even more then you do now. Let's start over tomorrow. We can start with the offensives you believe God has committed. I can give the best answers that I can, in the end that is all I can do. If you wish to end this conversation I fully understand. It is up to you.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GeoLaureate8
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2/7/2010 11:37:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:57:20 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/7/2010 10:36:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So if the popular belief was that blacks are an inferior race and deserve to be enslaved, you wouldn't feel the need to correct this false and immoral belief?

God doesn't see slave or free. He sees us. He doesn't think it matters whether you are free or in slavery. He doesn't care what color you are, people do.

That's not what I was talking about. I was giving an example of why someone would feel the need to eradicate certain beliefs.

See what religion has done to your mind? You need religion to keep you in line and know no other way to live moral without religion. This is one of the reasons why I attack and try to eradicate fallacious religious beliefs.

If I didn't believe in God then morals wouldn't matter to me. I wouldn't bother following His commandments.

I have several arguments against the 10 Commandments.

1. The 10 Commandments are inherently immoral. If you only refrain from killing because a divine, stone tablet tells you not to, YOU are an IMMORAL person. If you commit good deeds and refrain from evil, ONLY because you are commanded to, you are an immoral person.

Can you call yourself moral if a man with a gun forced you to give money to a homeless person? Or did you do the good deed for your own sake?

This is the core of the 10 Commandments. Don't do these things because I said not to. Has nothing to do with how you feel what is right and wrong. Only that God tells you how you must act. Taking orders is not moral, bottom line.

2. Half of the commandments aren't even moral to begin with.

- Do not worship other gods (religious intolerance, God is jealous)

- Do not make graven images (wtf)

- Don't take the Lord's name in vain (God is arrogant and prideful)

- Don't work on the Sabbath (absurd, this has nothing to do with morality)

- Honor your parents (even child abusing, throwing babies in garbages, type parents?)

- Don't covet your neighbor's wife (we can be convicted of thought crime?)

Is drinking against the law? Is having sex with hundreds of women? I would have no reason to care about how I live my life in those things. I could abort children, there is no law against that.

I don't care about the law. Like I said before, I don't need God, federal law, or any other authority to know that killing is wrong.

I'm sorry that you feel the only thing from stopping you from raping a baby is God. This truly is a shame.

Again, absence of religion =/= nihilism.

Again. I aint talking about that. I know some people can me just as if not "moral" as I.

Yes, you are saying that without religion, everyone would be nihilists who live life without limits or morals.

You may see religion as a book of rules. I see it as a way of life. And that life is LOVE.

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." - Genesis 7:4

Aah, religion, can't you just feel the love? Do you see love when you read that Bible verse?

Religion enslaves the mind, and by fighting religion, we are freeing minds from oppressive beliefs that enslave the masses.

I'm sorry but that is simply your opinion. That is what it is to you, personally. It is different to me. If I choose to be "enslaved" then why do you care? I don't like to complain about things until the effect me. I would feel I would be extremely arrogant if I did. But again, that is just me.

Again, I was telling you why I feel the need to fight against these beliefs. You acted as if only Christians have a reason to fight for their beliefs and that secularists have no moral obligation to combat what they feel are evil beliefs.

You might not care, but the Bible says that I ought to be stoned for not believing and sent to hell to burn for eternity. If people believe the Bible is right (as I assume any Christian would), then the majority of the population feels that I ought to be stoned to death and burn for eternity. You don't see this as a problematic belief?

Will you walk outside today and be stoned? I don't believe you should be stoned? Who said they were going to stone you? Point them out so I can stand in your place, seriously.

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." - Leviticus 24:16

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:27

"Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die." - 1 Kings 21:10

I know I can't throw a single stone at you, that is what Jesus said. I think you skipped over the last half of the Book my friend.

Oh really? First of all [Jesus = God] in Christian theology, so every atrocious word that God says can be attributed to Jesus. So whenever God commands genocide and stoning people, remember that Jesus IS God according to Christianity. (I personally think this is cruel to the actually character Jesus, but that's what Christianity does to him.)

Also, Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (OT) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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2/7/2010 11:38:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 11:03:06 PM, jharry wrote:
I think I may have touched a nerve with my questions, I apologize. I would hate to cause you to hate God even more then you do now. Let's start over tomorrow. We can start with the offensives you believe God has committed. I can give the best answers that I can, in the end that is all I can do. If you wish to end this conversation I fully understand. It is up to you.

Uh, this is debate.org, lol. We're supposed to be having this debate. If it gets heated, well, even more fun it is.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tkubok
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2/8/2010 6:52:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 10:57:20 PM, jharry wrote:
God doesn't see slave or free. He sees us. He doesn't think it matters whether you are free or in slavery. He doesn't care what color you are, people do.
Thats an argument in favor for slavery if ive ever heard one.

You may not know how, but it could be possible.
Do you believe the earth is flat?


If I didn't believe in God then morals wouldn't matter to me. I wouldn't bother following His commandments. Is drinking against the law? Is having sex with hundreds of women? I would have no reason to care about how I live my life in those things. I could abort children, there is no law against that. I think you are talking about some theory or thought. I'm talking about common sense.
nihilism

Although i think youre a guy, so i have no idea how you are going abort your baby, i find nothing wrong with drinking, or having sex with a hundred women, although id say good luck to the latter. And neither does the bible, apparently, because, well, how many wives did King David have? And what happened to Noah after the Flood? Wasnt he caught Drunk and naked and banned Canaan into an eternity of slavery? Didnt Lot become so drunk he couldnt tell that his daughters were having sex with him? And these guys were the most righteous people that God had specifically tried to save! Didnt Moses go around the kingdoms and didnt God command him to slaughter all the people in the lands, including splitting apart the wombs of women so that the unborn children will not survive?

Common sense tells us that there is nothing against drinking. Common sense tells us that there is nothing against having sex, or lots of sex, whether it be with multiple wives, as was the case with King David, or one. i find nothing wrong with none of these.

Again. I aint talking about that. I know some people can me just as if not "moral" as I. You may see religion as a book of rules. I see it as a way of life. And that life is LOVE.

Unbelievers burn in hell for all eternity? Thats alot of LOVE.

I'm sorry but that is simply your opinion. That is what it is to you, personally. It is different to me. If I choose to be "enslaved" then why do you care? I don't like to complain about things until the effect me. I would feel I would be extremely arrogant if I did. But again, that is just me.

If you saw a child on the street, being forced by her parents to be sold as a sex slave, you would feel nothing? You would not even think about freeing her? Really?

I mean, sure, the child may not affect you. But i dont find anything arrogant to believe that I am better than the parents who are forcing this child into prostitution, and least of all, i find nothing arrogant to wish for her to be free.

but again, thats just me. Maybe youre the type of person who would pay the parents and have sex with the child. I dont know, im not you.

Will you walk outside today and be stoned? I don't believe you should be stoned? Who said they were going to stone you? Point them out so I can stand in your place, seriously. I know I can't throw a single stone at you, that is what Jesus said. I think you skipped over the last half of the Book my friend.

First of all, if youre talking about the story where Jesus says "Those of you without Sin shall cast the first stone", youre wrong, that passage has nothing to do with mercy, or banishing the laws that dictate when to stone someone. If you actually took the time to read the levitical laws and the story, you would notice that the Levitical laws, specifically state that both the adulterous man AND woman must be taken and stoned. Jesus saw no man, only the woman, and therefore believed that he was being set up by the townsmen, and stopped the stoning. Jesus was following the laws to the letter.

However, just because we will not be stoned today when we walk out, does nothing to change the fact that this is a levitical law that was considered moral 3000 years ago. This book is the epitomy of morality? Of the way of life that one should live? What sort of society would allow these things to occur?

Why should you be stoned? In your own opinion. What are you referring to?

He is reffering to the levitical laws regarding stoning an unruly child or an adulterer or a woman who is being betrothed, that is raped, and did not or could not shout for help.
Marauder
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2/8/2010 12:10:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 2:40:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/4/2010 12:14:51 PM, Marauder wrote:

And i can show the fallacy of your argument with one simple question.

You said that this doesnt mean that fate is unavoidable. Therefore my question to you, is it possible to avoid fate?

Well, its accepted in physics today that space is in flux (as opposed to static) and that space and time are part of each other so we call them space-time now. If space can change then so could time. So yes, it is possible to avoid fate. Look at Reagan, it was his fate to die in that assasination attempt, but he lived. =)


I just ment He must take the sacrifice of letting these creatures do the wrong thing as worth in trade with some pro's he feels comes out of the creation.

Which addresses my argument, how?

Somewhere I forgot to add an 'or' after each theory. So possible explination 2) God found the trade to be worth it; addresses your argument in that even if he knows what we will do, putting the burden to choose to do those things on us is inherently worth the trade of perfectly obedient people that have no participation in being obedient. In a sense there would be no obedience in a scenario like that anyway because your just doing what your made. you 'function' not 'obey' in that world.

Theory three means that very assumption must be wrong.

No, it doesnt, and this is the logical contradiction that exists with free will and omnipotence. This is why your argument fails.

they would only contridict if Omnipotence ment doing everthing. But it means haveing the power to do everything. I have the power to smoke cigarettes, but I dont. Its not my argument that fails hear.


First of all, youre basically making an argument for parallel universes. Please prove that scientifically.

Secondly, Fail. Schrodingers cat is a paradox, and paradoxes are illogical and fallacios by their very definition. your application of Schrodingers cat, is the same as someone who says "According to Schrodingers cat, my money both exists and doesnt exist at the same time." Sorry, but no.

True, and I cannot prove it, thats why for all purposes we should not belive theory 4 as a likely canidate. I included it because the other 3 would not necessaraly be true in a situation like that.

First of all, the levitical laws shouldve been applied until Jesus Christ came and changed the laws. Therefore, by sheer practicality, people who followed the levitical laws couldnt all have witnessed Moses, unless everyone lived for 2000 years between the time Moses was alive and Jesus Christ was born. Your argument fails.

God gave the Levitical laws in the time of moses. What is the 'good' thing to do is not always the same, it depends on what the situation warants. So if God gave those laws to the people, then it can only be said with sertainty that God was calling that appropriate at the time he gave them. It does not rule it out that if God were to speak today he would tell us to do the same thing with gay's, but it doesnt assume that ethior.

First of all, no. If the miracles were supposedly the proof that these people needed, then Lazarus being resurrected and going to his brothers to tell them that Hell is real, should have been no different than Moses parting the red sea. Both are miracles. Infact, the real appication of Lazarus and Abraham is along the lines of Doubting Thomas, were people believe simply due to faith and reading and being told that these things occured, rather than actually having seen them first hand. That alone crushes your argument. Fail.

A man can hear an Owl and choose to not belive there is an Owl there simply because its dark and his sense of sight and hearing are in disagreement.
as long as were speaking of the first story as true then it proves Abrahams statement. Moses people in his time did see miricals, and that didnt cause them to do the right thing. So we can see why abraham would say such a thing like 'a man resurected from the dead' wont make them belive because the people who wandered in the wilderness for 40 years are an example of that.

Second off, though a great many sermons have been written about how tomas would have been better off to belive without seeing, We shouldnt overlook the point that Jesus did infact show himself to Thomas. The story of thomas would indicate that you will be blessed if you belive without seeing, not curesed for having to see.

Secondly, if you are correct, then the story would imply that the other prophets that Abraham mentions in the story were also going around doing miracles. Which is fine, because Jesus himself said that people will come and do even greater miracles than he. However, that would mean that there should be no reason why miracle are not occuring today. Your argument fails no matter which way you look at it.

rape goes on in the world without any case in paticular reaching my ears, children starve whose names I will never know, and people vanish without my awarness of there existance in the first place.
Incedents of miracles are reported in other places in world that I have heard about much the same as the statistics I have been given of the children that starve. But these instances are taken as seriously as the number of people who claim to have seen bigfoot.
However If your intrested in hearing of the accounts, the 6 day war is good place to start your search http://www.israelnationalnews.com...
So many things went impossibley perfect for Israel during that war.

Do you have better analogy for 'Its his to take and still be just' or 'your life is on loan, you dont have a right to longer use'?

No, because i dont find "I brought you into this world and i can take you out", as being moral, or just, or anything of the sort.

I agree that that saying doesnt justify your dad killing you, but I cant realy tell you why, can you tell me why it doesnt. its almost as if we refer to an objective morality that we have not made up. Anyway, I do differ with you on that statement failing when we apply it to god. Your dad is a carcause compleatly independant from you. But God is omnipresent witch means he is part of the fabric of your very being. He is in a different position to say what to do with you than your dad is.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
jharry
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2/8/2010 3:50:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/7/2010 11:37:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/7/2010 10:57:20 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/7/2010 10:36:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

How is Christianity immoral exactly? And what set of morals are you judging this by?


See what religion has done to your mind? You need religion to keep you in line and know no other way to live moral without religion. This is one of the reasons why I attack and try to eradicate fallacious religious beliefs.

How do you know what I believe? Sure you could ask me if this might be the cause of my belief or if I have some daddy issues that I mask with religion or some other meaningless babble. But here you are superimposing what you believe I am onto me. If I said you were an Atheist because you daddy raped you and your nerdy and have no friends, would this not be the exact same thing you are trying to do to me? By the way those would be extremely insulting to even say to someone and would do nothing more the hurt my arguments. You think I believe I can't be moral without God. And I never said that, you come into this conversation with these false assumptions already on the tip of your tongue and they end up being useless.


If I didn't believe in God then morals wouldn't matter to me. I wouldn't bother following His commandments.

Like I said, I wouldn't care, not that I can't do it without God but simply that I wouldn't care. And His commandments are to love. If I cheat on my wife I would devastate her, hurt her dearly. I love her so I don't. Thou shalt not commit adultery. It's not about laws, its about LOVE. To love others more then myself. When you say hurtful things about people it hurts them, when you call some one an idiot it hurts them. Instead of considering some one might be ignorant on a subject and trying to better educate them you blast them with insults as you do later in your in this post. That's why I feel like you are full of horse manure when you say you are trying to eradicate something because it is immoral. Insulting people and attacking them into submission is no better then what you say religion does to people.


I have several arguments against the 10 Commandments.

A simple character flaw like your abusive attacks are easy to see. It seems like you are very selfish and want people to bend to your belief system, if you would like to talk about that then I would love to maturely talk about that. But if I'm right, the 10 commandments were written for people that have that flaw. Peoples pride and ego can blind them into actually believing they are doing good while all along they are only feeding their lust for self glory and maybe even self justification.


Can you call yourself moral if a man with a gun forced you to give money to a homeless person? Or did you do the good deed for your own sake?

I'm called to do that by Our Lord. I hope you know that it is very easy for humans to fall into being selfish. Money gets tight so you don't give this time. Oh well I have a few extra bucks but I made it later so I will hold onto it. Well I have to get a bigger house so my house payment goes from 300.00 to over a 1000.00. We can fool and blind ourselves much easier the we know. Jesus calls us to live that way everyday, and it's still very hard to do.


I don't care about the law. Like I said before, I don't need God, federal law, or any other authority to know that killing is wrong.

"So you live by your own set of "morals?" What if someone else thinks like you and killing is within their own "moral" limit? Would you call them a sinner? And you know what I mean, just answer.


I'm sorry that you feel the only thing from stopping you from raping a baby is God. This truly is a shame.

I meaningless pathetic attack to try and demoralize me so you can feel like you are right. When your alone and it's quiet do you think about this?


Yes, you are saying that without religion, everyone would be nihilists who live life without limits or morals.

No everyone would be free to make up their own "morals". And one person doesn't feel like child prostitution is "immoral", because they don't feel it would be "moral" then would you agree? If I thought something you believed to be "moral" as "immoral" would you give a damn? Would you stop? You are not everyone and everyone is not you.

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." - Genesis 7:4

And yet again, if God exists, He created it so it His to destroy. I know you don't like that (if God exists) but its as useless hating gravity because you will die if you jump off a cliff. If God exists it is His and there is nothing you can do about it. Please get over yourself on that issue.


Aah, religion, can't you just feel the love? Do you see love when you read that Bible verse?

Maybe with that verse alone. But why did God flood the earth? Because of the depravity in it. He saved us by destroying what was bad in the world. Maybe that concept is to big are simple for you to understand, but try thinking about it for a while. But please don't forget that He created it and all he little creatures too. Do you feel guilty when you eat something? A plant is a living thing too.


Religion enslaves the mind, and by fighting religion, we are freeing minds from oppressive beliefs that enslave the masses.

How is my mind enslaved? Because you say it is? Because I disagree with you? What wound have you suffered at the hand of a Christian? What wound has anyone suffered at the hand of an Atheist. I will not be the one to lump ALL Atheists into one bag, I would be a damn fool to do hat.



Again, I was telling you why I feel the need to fight against these beliefs. You acted as if only Christians have a reason to fight for their beliefs and that secularists have no moral obligation to combat what they feel are evil beliefs.

I fight it in my life, I stop bad things from happening to people around me. That's all one can do. If everyone did this then the war would be won. Again, what is evil about Christians? About me?

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." - Leviticus 24:16


I know I can't throw a single stone at you, that is what Jesus said. I think you skipped over the last half of the Book my friend.

Oh really? First of all [Jesus = God] in Christian theology, so every atrocious word that God says can be attributed to Jesus. So whenever God commands genocide and stoning people, remember that Jesus IS God according to Christianity. (I personally think this is cruel to the actually character Jesus, but that's what Christianity does to him.)

Also, Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (OT) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17

And He did, He came to give Love. He sacrificed Himself so that we could be free. What a mean God, gave up place in Heaven to become what He has killed and hated for thousands of years. And then die for them without doing anything to deserve death. He did what we couldn't. If God exists. He kept the covenant that God made with His people. Do this and don't do this and I will give you this. AS a matter of fact people can't be "moral" even with a "moral" code set down by God. You say you know killing is bad without God. But that still doesn't mean you will never be able to kill someone. You try to give human attributes to God and God is not human. If He exists. You call God evil because He destroyed city? By what standards are you judging this? Your own, and who died and made you God to be able to judge what is good and evil? Did you create the universe? If God exists? You know what is moral and immoral? SO everyone must subscribe to your set of standards? I'm afraid you are no better t
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen