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Why iS God not accountable?

Poikilotherm
Posts: 62
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4/23/2014 6:23:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If a designer, architect, engineer and builder were to build your home and the structure then collapsed, logically you'd be looking to make someone accountable.

As God is the creator of all things, why I ask is he not accountable for all the faults and failures of his creations.

Before anyone answers by saying God gave man free will I would argue that, that free will is given with the strengths and weaknesses he placed within each of us himself.
Poikilotherm
Posts: 62
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4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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4/23/2014 8:51:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.

And who is going to punish God for His horrible actions?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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4/23/2014 11:21:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.

God is by definition perfect. Thus your inability to understand is because you cloud your mind. God asks us for one thing. To love unreservedly. If you honestly seek the truth you will find Him.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/23/2014 11:26:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 8:51:53 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.

And who is going to punish God for His horrible actions?

me...
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/23/2014 11:30:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:21:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.

God is by definition perfect.
based on what criteria? is it wishful thinking....???
lame.

Thus your inability to understand
who wants to justify gullibility based on wishful thinking...
lame
is because you cloud your mind.
sorry i question everything....being gullible isn't a good thing, didn't you know...i am being consistent with all the claims being presented to me...
i require empirical evidence, if that is too much to ask for then you are selling something not worth my time...

God asks us for one thing. To love unreservedly.
BS...

If you honestly seek the truth you will find Him.
BS...your propensity to be arrogant is noted
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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4/23/2014 11:30:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:26:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/23/2014 8:51:53 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.

And who is going to punish God for His horrible actions?

me...

Lol, go wrangle up the Alpha and Omega, this I gotta see.
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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4/23/2014 11:36:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:21:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:


God is by definition perfect.

To which god do you refer?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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4/23/2014 11:45:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:30:37 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:21:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:

God is by definition perfect.
based on what criteria? is it wishful thinking....???
lame.

Logically God must be the most perfect thing conceivable, otherwise there is something greater than Him and He is not God.

Thus your inability to understand
who wants to justify gullibility based on wishful thinking...
lame

Hardly a rebuttal.

is because you cloud your mind.
sorry i question everything....being gullible isn't a good thing, didn't you know...i am being consistent with all the claims being presented to me...
i require empirical evidence, if that is too much to ask for then you are selling something not worth my time...

So if you are in love you need empirical evidence?

God asks us for one thing. To love unreservedly.
BS...

Good argument.

If you honestly seek the truth you will find Him.
BS...your propensity to be arrogant is noted

Hey thanks. You should talk to bulproof. Both of you are cut from the same cloth.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/23/2014 11:47:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:30:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:26:48 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/23/2014 8:51:53 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 7:17:59 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

If the proclamations I've heard such as sinners not being welcomed into the gates of heaven or the threats of eternal damnation are examples of punishment for failing and not living up to the expectations of the creator it would be the fault of the creator himself as he created us with our weaknesses. As with the house analogy you would make the architect/designer/engineer/builder accountable therefore God himself would be accountable for the weaknesses of his own design.

And who is going to punish God for His horrible actions?

me...

Lol, go wrangle up the Alpha and Omega, this I gotta see.

your delusions are you delusions and have no bearing on me...sorry.
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/23/2014 11:52:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:45:47 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:30:37 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:21:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:

God is by definition perfect.
based on what criteria? is it wishful thinking....???
lame.

Logically God must be the most perfect thing conceivable, otherwise there is something greater than Him and He is not God.

you didn't answer the question....what standard justifies this logic?


Thus your inability to understand
who wants to justify gullibility based on wishful thinking...
lame

Hardly a rebuttal.
you never provided a standard, a form of measurement or criteria that would establish your logic....i'm still waiting for your response.

is because you cloud your mind.
sorry i question everything....being gullible isn't a good thing, didn't you know...i am being consistent with all the claims being presented to me...
i require empirical evidence, if that is too much to ask for then you are selling something not worth my time...

So if you are in love you need empirical evidence?
i realize that whomever i love is NOT ACCOUNTABLE TO ME
and it's all based on MY WISHFUL THINKING, MY HOPE, MY DESIRE TO BE LOVED
got it...question is are you willing to concede to the same thing when it comes to claims about an all encompassing authority over EVERYONE


God asks us for one thing. To love unreservedly.
BS...

Good argument.
yes it is.

If you honestly seek the truth you will find Him.
BS...your propensity to be arrogant is noted

Hey thanks. You should talk to bulproof. Both of you are cut from the same cloth.

now now now...you should rejoice and be glad you are being made fun of for your delusions....matthew 5:11

suck it up
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
Jingram994
Posts: 211
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4/23/2014 12:19:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:45:47 AM, Geogeer wrote:

Logically God must be the most perfect thing conceivable, otherwise there is something greater than Him and He is not God.

No, God is simply the greatest possible being that can exist. If we instead open this up to 'the greatest possible being that we can conceive of', there's a very good chance that reality isn't going to give a sh*t that we can conceive of a being greater than the greatest that can actually exist, so our ability to conceive of it doesn't mean anything.

There is no requirement that this include 'perfection', which is actually a subjective value quality by definition when applied to a being rather than an object. A great being, even 'the greatest' being, is still able to fail and make mistakes, or lack good ethical values, or any number of other things of that nature.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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4/23/2014 12:21:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:52:35 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:45:47 AM, Geogeer wrote:

Logically God must be the most perfect thing conceivable, otherwise there is something greater than Him and He is not God.

you didn't answer the question....what standard justifies this logic?

Logic itself. If God is not all powerful, then He is not God. Morality is based off of that which is in conformance with God's will. If God was not perfect then he could change his mind, if he could change his mind then morality would not be absolute, if morality were not absolute then it would be unjust for him to make judgement on mankind, etc, etc, etc...

A logical truism is that you cannot give what you do not have. Thus, as an example, any sense of justice that you have can only be as great as the one who gave it to you. Thus justice is only as perfect as the one who authors right and wrong. If God did not posess perfect justice you would have no sense of justice because he himself could not impart it to you because an imperfect justice is not justice at all.

So if you are in love you need empirical evidence?
i realize that whomever i love is NOT ACCOUNTABLE TO ME
and it's all based on MY WISHFUL THINKING, MY HOPE, MY DESIRE TO BE LOVED
got it...question is are you willing to concede to the same thing when it comes to claims about an all encompassing authority over EVERYONE

We are His creation, and His nature is greater than ours. Thus we are as accountable to Him as he chooses. As he is perfect he acts perfectly in this capacity as well.

Hey thanks. You should talk to bulproof. Both of you are cut from the same cloth.

now now now...you should rejoice and be glad you are being made fun of for your delusions....matthew 5:11

suck it up

Nah, there are people who actually make logical counter arguments.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/23/2014 12:33:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think God is accountable for everything that happens, including human decisions.

Proverbs 16:9 "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps."

Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord."

Proverbs 20:24 "Man"s steps are ordained by the Lord. How then can man understand his way?"

Jeremiah 10:23 "I know, O Lord, that a man"s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."

Psalm 139:16 "And in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me,
when as yet there was not one of them."
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/23/2014 12:36:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:45:47 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:30:37 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:21:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:

God is by definition perfect.
based on what criteria? is it wishful thinking....???
lame.

Logically God must be the most perfect thing conceivable, otherwise there is something greater than Him and He is not God.

This does not necessarily follow (although I can see why it is prima facie).

1. It might not be possible to have a being more perfect as that would invoke logical contradictions (a simple one is the heaviest possible stone and the strongest possible lifter).

2. There is no reason to conclude that because it's logically possible for there to be a greater being, that there necessarily needs to be one.
Resolved: the Zombie Apocalypse Will Happen
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PGA
Posts: 4,049
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4/23/2014 2:22:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 6:23:38 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
If a designer, architect, engineer and builder were to build your home and the structure then collapsed, logically you'd be looking to make someone accountable.

God made an 'if/then' covenant with mankind in Adam. Man built his own home in rejecting God's good command. Man chose to live outside of God's command and God applied the penalty He said He would as a lesson for man.

As God is the creator of all things, why I ask is he not accountable for all the faults and failures of his creations.

He imposed penalties only after man chose to do his own thing in becoming sinful. He judged sin thus showing He is both just and good.

Before anyone answers by saying God gave man free will I would argue that, that free will is given with the strengths and weaknesses he placed within each of us himself.

He gave man, in Adam, the ability to choose to know Him and learn of His goodness or reject Him and find out that man cannot live without God without creating a hell on earth.

Peter
12_13
Posts: 1,364
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4/23/2014 2:36:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 6:23:38 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:

As God is the creator of all things, why I ask is he not accountable for all the faults and failures of his creations.

Before anyone answers by saying God gave man free will I would argue that, that free will is given with the strengths and weaknesses he placed within each of us himself.

I don"t think God has done any mistakes. People have ability to do good things, but they love more evil and rather do bad things. I think there is no ways to blame God for that, because people are not forced to do wrong things.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 2:54:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 6:23:38 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:
If a designer, architect, engineer and builder were to build your home and the structure then collapsed, logically you'd be looking to make someone accountable.

As God is the creator of all things, why I ask is he not accountable for all the faults and failures of his creations.

Before anyone answers by saying God gave man free will I would argue that, that free will is given with the strengths and weaknesses he placed within each of us himself.

Poikilotherm, this is an issue that concerns me too. That is why, as a theist, whenever someone claims God is wholly good and perfect I respond with "Wrong." God is as much responsible for the poor quality of our world as we are, and therefore when people get hurt or killed in it, who DOES DESERVE much of the blame!

If God is a God that punishes for sin, he's as much punishing people for their sins as he is punishing them for his own!

That is why I hold the position that God is neither worthy of worship or unconditional adoration! God is simply another organism in our universe--but with much more power.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 2:56:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I take the position that God doesn't just punish us for OUR sins; he punishes us for HIS sins as well!

It's a theistical view I still firmly support!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/23/2014 3:06:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

Bad parenting.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/23/2014 3:08:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 2:36:27 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 6:23:38 AM, Poikilotherm wrote:

As God is the creator of all things, why I ask is he not accountable for all the faults and failures of his creations.

Before anyone answers by saying God gave man free will I would argue that, that free will is given with the strengths and weaknesses he placed within each of us himself.

I don"t think God has done any mistakes. People have ability to do good things, but they love more evil and rather do bad things. I think there is no ways to blame God for that, because people are not forced to do wrong things.

His mistake was creating Satan in the first place. His mistake was giving mandates without explanation. his mistake was putting the tree in such a readily availeable place, which was easily accessible.
Poikilotherm
Posts: 62
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4/23/2014 3:21:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Typically believers avoid the basic question being asked. Immediately they refer to the testimonies of the mortal men that contributed their accounts into the bible with phrases such as "god commanded".

This merely indicates they have accepted these words as truth without questioning.

I as an agnostic I can accept that there most likely is a creative force behind our existence but I believe it's beyond our comprehension to know exactly what it is and I find it offensive that others claim they do.

As to perceiving a God that's giving out smiley or grumpy stamps I cannot . That might offer comfort to many and the purpose of having people accept that thinking has always been the way of various religions to control their flocks.

Control by fear and threats is what dictators tend to do.

Believing there is a judgmental God and that some karma or payback for evil doers is forthcoming is most likely wishful thinking and I believe that sister Teresa was treated no different than a serial killer after her death.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 3:21:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 6:36:22 AM, Smithereens wrote:
One is accountable for the consequences of their actions. Which action do you believe God ought to be held accountable for?

Smithereens, God is largely responsible for all the pain and suffering he's forced biological life to endure to get to this point. He definitely shares much of the blame, since he followed through with his idea of creating biological life in the first place.

And I agree with one of posters that already commented.

God is guilty of bad parenting. He's also guilty of creating a living world and forcing it to endure hardships just so that he could have company in the universe!

God deserves a large amount of the blame for the poor quality of our world, even if humans do too!
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 3:38:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:21:32 PM, Poikilotherm wrote:
Typically believers avoid the basic question being asked. Immediately they refer to the testimonies of the mortal men that contributed their accounts into the bible with phrases such as "god commanded".

This merely indicates they have accepted these words as truth without questioning.

I as an agnostic I can accept that there most likely is a creative force behind our existence but I believe it's beyond our comprehension to know exactly what it is and I find it offensive that others claim they do.

As to perceiving a God that's giving out smiley or grumpy stamps I cannot . That might offer comfort to many and the purpose of having people accept that thinking has always been the way of various religions to control their flocks.

Control by fear and threats is what dictators tend to do.

Yes they do. This is why even though I believe in a God the idea will never make me very comfortable. There is something scary about God that will always separate me from wholly liking him.

Believing there is a judgmental God and that some karma or payback for evil doers is forthcoming is most likely wishful thinking and I believe that sister Teresa was treated no different than a serial killer after her death.

There is karma and there is payback for sins, but not in the way we humans tend to believe. Frequently people not even associated with a sin God is punishing are harmed in his punishments.

Jesus, who was allegedly blameless, died for the sins of people he hardly knew--and that's also a way God judges sin. Innocent people die for the sins of the guilty, and this is why we shouldn't go around celebrating sin. Not only is sin destructive to our society but the consequences (both direct and divine) can hurt people not even participating in the original sinful act!
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 3:43:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you don't like the idea of innocent people--young children, innocent adults, the elderly--suffering from the crimes and sins of others, then you (and we) should do everything in our power from participating in and promoting destructive evil in our world!

Sin doesn't just kill the sinner.
Poikilotherm
Posts: 62
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4/23/2014 3:57:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why would a loving God choose to create chaos and conflict and not a utopia where everything was absolutely perfect ?

If we as mortals design something imperfect and it fails we usually blame ourselves and try to fix it so why would an all knowing all powerful loving creator of everything not wish to to the same ?

If a mortal rises to great power and kills thousands of innocent people we condemn his actions but when a sweet innocent child too young to have committed any sins is cursed with some deadly disease and suffers intolerable pain God gets a free pass.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 4:09:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:57:27 PM, Poikilotherm wrote:
Why would a loving God choose to create chaos and conflict and not a utopia where everything was absolutely perfect ?

If we as mortals design something imperfect and it fails we usually blame ourselves and try to fix it so why would an all knowing all powerful loving creator of everything not wish to to the same ?

If a mortal rises to great power and kills thousands of innocent people we condemn his actions but when a sweet innocent child too young to have committed any sins is cursed with some deadly disease and suffers intolerable pain God gets a free pass.

Poikilotherm, this assumes God is capable of creating a Utopia in the first place. I don't think God can. I don't subscribe to the view that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.

I think God is much more powerful than a human (I actually believe God is the conscious, super-intelligent universe) and I think God is much, much smarter than a human. But I do not believe his power is infinite and his intelligence is endless. I think both are relatively finite.

A Utopia is something God wants humans to construct, but I don't think the results will be perfect--so we shouldn't expect eternal joy and happiness either.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 4:12:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction:

A Utopia is something God wants humans to construct, but I don't think the results will be perfect--so we shouldn't expect perpetual joy and happiness either.