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Intelligent design ?

Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!

So I started thinking about the natural world and what it is.............and is not.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Sun..................causes cancer.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/23/2014 1:20:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Assuming this is not a joke, I think you have a big misunderstanding of what intelligent design is. Intelligent design is the idea that certain features of the universe were engineered by a person. It is based on both cosmology and biology. In cosmology, appeal is made to the fine-tuning of various constants in the universe that make life possible. In biology, appeal is made both to the information found in DNA and in the improbability of life emerging from non-life by purely natural causes apart from an engineer.

At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!

Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of ID sources, but if that's how they argue, I'd be surprised.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

I've never heard anybody argue that pop on the landscape is evidence for intelligent design.

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

So?

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

Yes. Viruses have RNA. Parasites have DNA. These molecules have information that direct the production of functional proteins. The argument is that information only comes from minds, so these things are examples of what ID folks refer to as "intelligent design."

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

No. There's life in the ocean, too.

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Probably. Changing weather is necessary to sustain life on earth.

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Yes.

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Bras and pants are designed by intelligent beings, namely humans, so yes, they are examples of intelligent design.

Sun..................causes cancer.

Also necessary for life on earth.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

All the suffering in the world is consistent with intelligent design. Intelligent design is not a theory about morality.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/23/2014 1:28:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!

So I started thinking about the natural world and what it is.............and is not.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Sun..................causes cancer.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

Dude.

We have just suffered 5 days of trolling by Neutral. What do you hope to accomplish by trolling Theists in return? Why kick up a storm when we have finally gotten out of one of our own, which I will add was the most unpleasant experience AI have had on DDO.

By all means post topics discussing intelligent design but don't appeal to ridicule and hilarity from the get-go, it's just plain rude. You should know this having just been on the receiving end of it.
Resolved: the Zombie Apocalypse Will Happen
http://www.debate.org...

The most basic living cell was Intelligently Designed:
http://www.debate.org...

God most likely exists:
http://www.debate.org...
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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4/23/2014 2:44:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!

Uhhhh, that's not really how the argument goes.... Not even close.

So I started thinking about the natural world and what it is.............and is not.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Sun..................causes cancer.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

Meh, you are not a very good troll.
12_13
Posts: 1,364
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4/23/2014 2:46:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

According to the Bible, all was good at the beginning. There were no problems. Then people rejected God and after that they have done many bad things and this world has been corrupted. I think it is not designers fault. It is users fault, because user abandoned good and wants all kind of evil things and ruins this world by greed and unloving attitude.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/23/2014 3:56:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Design doesn't have to ake things perfect for there to be design. I can design a torture rack, that's still designed, even though it causes massive pain and suffering.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/23/2014 7:43:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 2:44:33 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!


Uhhhh, that's not really how the argument goes.... Not even close.

For some it does.


So I started thinking about the natural world and what it is.............and is not.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Sun..................causes cancer.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

Meh, you are not a very good troll.

Not trolling, if your going to take things from the natural world and claim they are the result of intelligent design and not only that the the intelligent designer is this great all powerful wise, person etc etc...........yeah well the evidence I pointed out doesn't suggest that.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/23/2014 7:53:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 1:20:09 PM, philochristos wrote:
Assuming this is not a joke, I think you have a big misunderstanding of what intelligent design is. Intelligent design is the idea that certain features of the universe were engineered by a person. It is based on both cosmology and biology. In cosmology, appeal is made to the fine-tuning of various constants in the universe that make life possible. In biology, appeal is made both to the information found in DNA and in the improbability of life emerging from non-life by purely natural causes apart from an engineer.

At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!

Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of ID sources, but if that's how they argue, I'd be surprised.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

I've never heard anybody argue that pop on the landscape is evidence for intelligent design.

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

So?

This suggest the world wasn't made with us in mind.


Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

Yes. Viruses have RNA. Parasites have DNA. These molecules have information that direct the production of functional proteins. The argument is that information only comes from minds, so these things are examples of what ID folks refer to as "intelligent design."

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

No. There's life in the ocean, too.

So ? people want to claim that we are the product of intelligent design, once again this evidence seems to go the other way.


It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Probably. Changing weather is necessary to sustain life on earth.

The intelligent designer could not sustain life without too hot and too cold ? can we take the all powerful intelligent designer off the table now ?


Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Yes.

I doubt it.

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Bras and pants are designed by intelligent beings, namely humans, so yes, they are examples of intelligent design.

Kinda missed the point there.

Once again, this shows how we don't live in an ideal world, we


Sun..................causes cancer.

Also necessary for life on earth.

Not if your an all powerful all knowing intelligent designer.


Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

All the suffering in the world is consistent with intelligent design. Intelligent design is not a theory about morality.

Anything is logically compatible with intelligent design, that's part of the joke, no matter how things turn out............well that was part of the plan.

Doesn't mean we should believe it, doesn't mean it's plausible.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/23/2014 7:58:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:56:15 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Design doesn't have to ake things perfect for there to be design. I can design a torture rack, that's still designed, even though it causes massive pain and suffering.

You mean intelligent design and yes I agree.

But you can' have it both ways, if your going to make claims about ID based on the natural world and not prior religious beliefs, even granting the natural world is ID the LAST inference you would make is that the intelligent designer is all powerful, all knowing, just, compassionate etc etc.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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4/23/2014 8:51:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 7:43:01 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 4/23/2014 2:44:33 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!


Uhhhh, that's not really how the argument goes.... Not even close.

For some it does.



So I started thinking about the natural world and what it is.............and is not.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Sun..................causes cancer.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

Meh, you are not a very good troll.

Not trolling, if your going to take things from the natural world and claim they are the result of intelligent design and not only that the the intelligent designer is this great all powerful wise, person etc etc...........yeah well the evidence I pointed out doesn't suggest that.

The evidence you provided is a straw man. Likewise, when did I say I was an advocate of I.D.

Not a troll? I thought you were kidding... In that case, I can only believe that you are not well versed or educated in the actual evidence that many people who are scientists and physicists use when stating the I.D. premise and demonstrate evidence by pointing out the fine-tuned universe, the properties and constants of the big bang as well as theories behind quantum mechanics. This is not the same thing as theological creationism. Intelligent design has it's roots in something all together different and is separate from creationism. Nice try though :-/
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/23/2014 9:05:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 8:51:54 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 4/23/2014 7:43:01 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 4/23/2014 2:44:33 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 4/23/2014 11:22:03 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So you know how the argument goes....

Just look around you, how amazing and beautiful it is, how can you now this was all made by an intelligent creator............puppies, rainbows, sunsets, complexity, the order..................more puppies !!!


Uhhhh, that's not really how the argument goes.... Not even close.

For some it does.



So I started thinking about the natural world and what it is.............and is not.

In the natural world, well there is no sewage system, were you poop is where it stays........is that part of the intelligent design ?

We have built all sorts of shelter, houses, apartments etc why ? cause living in the natural environment is not too pleasant.

Ebola virus, parasites that cause blindness, is that part of the intelligent design ?

We need fresh water to live,...............huh !!! jokes on us, most of the earths water is undrinkable. Is that like some kind of joke by God ?

It's too hot, it's too cold.........................is that part of the intelligent design ?

Animals eating other animals, everything is trying to eat everything else to stay alive, part of the plan eh ?

Oh, clothes are not exactly natural now are they, you don't see ducks wearing pants. is that part of the intelligent design ? Bra's are of satan ?

Sun..................causes cancer.

Human history is a testament of just trying to stay alive, think of all of those who died in misery and suffering, and for those who do manage to keep alive, oh now you have the fun of trying to make a good life.........in cruel cruel world where the odds are stacked against you in this so called "intelligently designed" world.

Meh, you are not a very good troll.

Not trolling, if your going to take things from the natural world and claim they are the result of intelligent design and not only that the the intelligent designer is this great all powerful wise, person etc etc...........yeah well the evidence I pointed out doesn't suggest that.

The evidence you provided is a straw man. Likewise, when did I say I was an advocate of I.D.

Not a troll? I thought you were kidding... In that case, I can only believe that you are not well versed or educated in the actual evidence that many people who are scientists and physicists use when stating the I.D. premise and demonstrate evidence by pointing out the fine-tuned universe,

Yeah I know that one......

1) You can't infer that something is ID just because the outcome is astronomical improbable (eg life permitting constants, a certain sequence of numbers from rolling a dice). Improbable happens all the time, it's just that when it comes to our selves suddenly some see the hand of God........

2) The data is biased, you don't find life forms in non life permitting universes. Observer selection effect needs to be taken into account.

the properties and constants of the big bang as well as theories behind quantum mechanics.

I plead ignorance to any argument based on quantum mechanics. BUt for those who like to use "order" of the universe to try and justify ID, two words.............Quantum Entanglement.

This is not the same thing as theological creationism. Intelligent design has it's roots in something all together different and is separate from creationism. Nice try though :-/

Agreed. We can come up with many different kinds of ID, eg six day creation, theistic evolution, we all live in the matrix.

In hindsight my comments were directed at those who advocate ID as an entity who is all powerful, all knowing etc etc. What alot of people have in mind when they say "God".
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12