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What is good and what is evil?

GodSands
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2/4/2010 4:00:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What really is good and evil and who decides what good and evil is? This is the question here, so I will reason with this question and if you feel I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

Lets create a scenerio, I think rape and child abuse is a definite no no. It is absolutely wrong and evil.

However another person comes along and thinks that rape and child abuse is a good thing. Because his parents raised him to think rape and child abuse is a good thing to commit.

Who can say he his wrong by what he thinks is good, that being rape and child abuse?

If you say, "I do" then you are only saying he is wrong according to your own authority. That does not justify what good and evil is because who told you what good and evil is? Parents? Where did your parensts get their idea of good and evil?

If you say he is wrong by thinking rape and child abuse is good according to a ruler and their authority then Hitler was a good leader because he ruled over Germany as the authority. The law maker of that country of that time. So if you reason that good and evil is determined by the ruler of a country then according to your reasoning, Hitler was a good person in his own country.

So who decides what good and evil is, is rape good? Is child abuse good? Who can say they are not? What you think is good may not really be good at all or perhaps only according to you or your society. But who can say our society is absolutely good? Who can say what we think is good according to our own planet is really good?

Another planet may think what we think is good being absolutely evil.

As I have gone from an individual to leader to a country to our planet earth, there has been no reason to think what we presume is good and evil really being good and evil.

Lets go either further out and what have you? An authority of the entire universe who decides what good and evil is, and that be God.

Anyone disagree?
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 5:04:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Unexpectedly no one has replied, usually by now there would be a few or at least one other response, yet there are none.

Can anyone defeat the reasoning here?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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2/4/2010 5:12:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 4:00:15 PM, GodSands wrote:
Lets go either further out and what have you? An authority of the entire universe who decides what good and evil is, and that be God.

You made a beautiful argument for subjective morality and then you asserted a conclusion based on the contradictory reasoning that an objective morality must for some reason exist.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 5:16:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/4/2010 5:12:00 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 2/4/2010 4:00:15 PM, GodSands wrote:
Lets go either further out and what have you? An authority of the entire universe who decides what good and evil is, and that be God.

You made a beautiful argument for subjective morality and then you asserted a conclusion based on the contradictory reasoning that an objective morality must for some reason exist.


Subjective morality does not exist, objective morality does. There is a right and there is a wrong (good and evil), unless you want to begin by admitting rape and child abuse might actually be seen as a good thing in some persons eyes.

Which would make you subject on whether there might be something in you saying that rape and child abuse might actually be good. God decides what is good and evil, that is my conclusion, anyony disagree?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/4/2010 5:17:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
[Human Nature + social circumstance] defines the two
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/4/2010 5:18:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:17:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
[Human Nature + social circumstance's affecting the development of that nature + reasoning] defines the two

Fixd
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 5:28:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/4/2010 5:17:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
[Human Nature + social circumstance] defines the two

Sorry? So my nature and my society are the reasons why I think rape is evil? Didn't I cover this?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/4/2010 5:36:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:28:10 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 2/4/2010 5:17:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
[Human Nature + social circumstance] defines the two

Sorry? So my nature and my society are the reasons why I think rape is evil? Didn't I cover this?

by social circumstances I more mean that if you lived in a society, and did not live under extremely destitute circumstances..... Not that you got your ideas of the good from society.

this (plus good reasoning) (in normal humans) I submit ought to cause them to have the same conception of "good".

Of course if different peoples/races etc. are truly different ( which i see no reason whatsoever to posit), or if psychopathy is somehow genetic, then my "ought to" claim wouldn't hold up.

But then I don't usually think of psychopaths as fully human anyways.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 5:44:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/4/2010 5:36:26 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/4/2010 5:28:10 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 2/4/2010 5:17:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
[Human Nature + social circumstance] defines the two

Sorry? So my nature and my society are the reasons why I think rape is evil? Didn't I cover this?

by social circumstances I more mean that if you lived in a society, and did not live under extremely destitute circumstances..... Not that you got your ideas of the good from society.

this (plus good reasoning) (in normal humans) I submit ought to cause them to have the same conception of "good".

Of course if different peoples/races etc. are truly different ( which i see no reason whatsoever to posit), or if psychopathy is somehow genetic, then my "ought to" claim wouldn't hold up.

But then I don't usually think of psychopaths as fully human anyways.


Little to do with my argument, you have only presented your own opinion, do you or do you not disagree with my statment on good and evil?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/4/2010 5:50:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:44:13 PM, GodSands wrote:

Little to do with my argument, you have only presented your own opinion, do you or do you not disagree with my statment on good and evil?

I did present my own opinion on where good and evil comes from, and did not mention God.

If you'd like me to get more detailed; I think our nature comes from evolution and see no reason to believe in god
But I think you already know this

I disagree with your assertion, for there are simpler and better explanations (like the one I spelled out) for the existence of the good.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 5:56:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/4/2010 5:50:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/4/2010 5:44:13 PM, GodSands wrote:

Little to do with my argument, you have only presented your own opinion, do you or do you not disagree with my statment on good and evil?

I did present my own opinion on where good and evil comes from, and did not mention God.

If you'd like me to get more detailed; I think our nature comes from evolution and see no reason to believe in god
But I think you already know this

I disagree with your assertion, for there are simpler and better explanations (like the one I spelled out) for the existence of the good.


You said in short that good and evil comes from our society, but where did society get their idea on good and evil? And even so, who says their good and evil is absolutely correct and right?

You mentioned evolution, again, what if another planet had evolved creatures of intelligence and they thought what we thought was good was evil for example, what would you say then, "Your planet is wrong, ours is right!"?
MTGandP
Posts: 702
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2/4/2010 6:00:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:16:12 PM, GodSands wrote:
Subjective morality does not exist, objective morality does. There is a right and there is a wrong (good and evil), unless you want to begin by admitting rape and child abuse might actually be seen as a good thing in some persons eyes.
But that's exactly what you did.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/4/2010 6:06:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/4/2010 6:00:35 PM, MTGandP wrote:
At 2/4/2010 5:16:12 PM, GodSands wrote:
Subjective morality does not exist, objective morality does. There is a right and there is a wrong (good and evil), unless you want to begin by admitting rape and child abuse might actually be seen as a good thing in some persons eyes.
But that's exactly what you did.


No, I gave an example of a person who believes that rape and child abuse is a good thing. I did not state that rape and child abuse are good things. I believe they are absolutely evil based on the factor that God makes the rules.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/4/2010 8:10:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 5:56:32 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 2/4/2010 5:50:13 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/4/2010 5:44:13 PM, GodSands wrote:

Little to do with my argument, you have only presented your own opinion, do you or do you not disagree with my statment on good and evil?

I did present my own opinion on where good and evil comes from, and did not mention God.

If you'd like me to get more detailed; I think our nature comes from evolution and see no reason to believe in god
But I think you already know this

I disagree with your assertion, for there are simpler and better explanations (like the one I spelled out) for the existence of the good.


You said in short that good and evil comes from our society,
No, I said from our nature, and natural social interaction (NOT ideas from society, I clarified this)
but where did society get their idea on good and evil? And even so, who says their good and evil is absolutely correct and right?
It's not ideas from society, it's ideas from our nature.
You mentioned evolution, again, what if another planet had evolved creatures of intelligence and they thought what we thought was good was evil for example, what would you say then, "Your planet is wrong, ours is right!"?

I would say that Human moral cares may very well be different from the cares of intelligent aliens.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/5/2010 3:08:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/4/2010 4:00:15 PM, GodSands wrote:
What really is good and evil and who decides what good and evil is? This is the question here, so I will reason with this question and if you feel I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

Lets create a scenerio, I think rape and child abuse is a definite no no. It is absolutely wrong and evil.

However another person comes along and thinks that rape and child abuse is a good thing. Because his parents raised him to think rape and child abuse is a good thing to commit.

Who can say he his wrong by what he thinks is good, that being rape and child abuse?

If you say, "I do" then you are only saying he is wrong according to your own authority. That does not justify what good and evil is because who told you what good and evil is? Parents? Where did your parensts get their idea of good and evil?

If you say he is wrong by thinking rape and child abuse is good according to a ruler and their authority then Hitler was a good leader because he ruled over Germany as the authority. The law maker of that country of that time. So if you reason that good and evil is determined by the ruler of a country then according to your reasoning, Hitler was a good person in his own country.

So who decides what good and evil is, is rape good? Is child abuse good? Who can say they are not? What you think is good may not really be good at all or perhaps only according to you or your society. But who can say our society is absolutely good? Who can say what we think is good according to our own planet is really good?

Another planet may think what we think is good being absolutely evil.

As I have gone from an individual to leader to a country to our planet earth, there has been no reason to think what we presume is good and evil really being good and evil.

Lets go either further out and what have you? An authority of the entire universe who decides what good and evil is, and that be God.

Anyone disagree?

Only God, Jesus Christ, is good.. everything else is infinitely corruptible.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/5/2010 4:23:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/5/2010 3:08:34 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Only God, Jesus Christ, is good.. everything else is infinitely corruptible.

Including DATCMOTO. Hence why no one takes him seriously - we all know that he is corrupted by these literally holier-than-thou thoughts, unable or unwilling to admit that others might be equal in stature to him. His false modesty and willful stupidity on simple scientific subjects which I'm sure he could understand if he for once opened his mind is a sign of how corrupted this poor fool truly is.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/5/2010 5:08:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would say that Human moral cares may very well be different from the cares of intelligent aliens.

But these aliens believe that rape of humans specifically is a good thing to commit, not because they have anything against humans, it is just what they see is good. Their idea on pain and punishment is completey different to ours, since they evolved differently.

Thedy also abuse our child because they believe that if child are abused they will learn how to servive in the harshes of conditions. Is that good or evil? And who says?
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/5/2010 5:15:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Only God, Jesus Christ, is good.. everything else is infinitely corruptible.

A Christian who has been made blameless has become clean and pure in the sight of God due to the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Sin attacks the flesh, but those in Christ are dead to the flesh, although we will commit sin, it is only seen as sin by others because we still life in the physical body that restricts us from being perfect.

God sees to the heart not at the flesh. God sees the flesh of the unsaved because their spirit is dead. Please I am being sencere and I am being sencere by asking you to correct me. I will take correction.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/6/2010 3:44:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/6/2010 2:41:28 AM, GodSands wrote:
Has anyone got any argument against mine? I know of one, but do you? Haha.

You just made an entire argument in the first post against the notion of morality coming from authority, and then you concluded that morality must come from God, another authority. FAIL. This is just pitiful.

So God says genocide is ok, therefore its moral because he said so. WRONG. That's not what defines good and evil.

What defines good and evil is the golden rule. If you wouldn't want to be raped, then don't rape others. It's evil. If you want to be loved, then loving others is good.
A refutation might be that a person is masochistic, and wants to be raped or assaulted, but that person wants it done under their consent which is different than doing it to somebody who doesn't want it done to them, so its still remains unrefuted.

(The Golden rule is not a Christian concept so don't even go there. It dates back to Confucious long before Christianity.)

And GodSands, if you think morality comes from God, then does he command things because its moral, or is it moral because he commands it?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/6/2010 4:06:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/5/2010 4:23:00 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/5/2010 3:08:34 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Only God, Jesus Christ, is good.. everything else is infinitely corruptible.

Including DATCMOTO. Hence why no one takes him seriously - we all know that he is corrupted by these literally holier-than-thou thoughts, unable or unwilling to admit that others might be equal in stature to him. His false modesty and willful stupidity on simple scientific subjects which I'm sure he could understand if he for once opened his mind is a sign of how corrupted this poor fool truly is.

Grade school tactics; (name calling) how will I cope?
The Cross.. the Cross.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/6/2010 4:08:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/6/2010 3:44:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/6/2010 2:41:28 AM, GodSands wrote:
Has anyone got any argument against mine? I know of one, but do you? Haha.

You just made an entire argument in the first post against the notion of morality coming from authority, and then you concluded that morality must come from God, another authority. FAIL. This is just pitiful.

So God says genocide is ok, therefore its moral because he said so. WRONG. That's not what defines good and evil.

What defines good and evil is the golden rule. If you wouldn't want to be raped, then don't rape others. It's evil. If you want to be loved, then loving others is good.
A refutation might be that a person is masochistic, and wants to be raped or assaulted, but that person wants it done under their consent which is different than doing it to somebody who doesn't want it done to them, so its still remains unrefuted.

(The Golden rule is not a Christian concept so don't even go there. It dates back to Confucious long before Christianity.)

And GodSands, if you think morality comes from God, then does he command things because its moral, or is it moral because he commands it?


Ok so you have this Golden rule. Say on another planet rape and child abuse is a good thing. For example: Everyone there is enjoying watching one get raped but the one getting raped. But after the raping is over, everyone including the rape victum watches it back. Everyone including the rape victum enjoyes the play back.

Is rape a good or evil thing in this scenario? The Golden rule says that if you don't want to be hated, don't hate. If you want to be loved, love others. But in this case, the alien who was raped, would actually disagree with you on this point because the alien who was raped enjoyed the play back of watching it back.

God chooses what is good and evil because God created the universe. End of that. If God says rape is evil it is evil, and we will agree because we are made from the image of God. But if there is not a God and we were not made from His image then what is good and what is evil?

What if somebody hates to be loved? Or loves to be hated? Would you hate this person because it applies to the Golden rule?
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/6/2010 5:20:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So you claim that evolution has build up what good and evil is...You begin and explain why evolution determines what good and evil is. Consider the notion of other planets which have evolved intelligent life also.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/6/2010 5:29:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/6/2010 5:20:54 AM, GodSands wrote:
So you claim that evolution has build up what good and evil is...You begin and explain why evolution determines what good and evil is. Consider the notion of other planets which have evolved intelligent life also.

well lets start with Bugs.

Intelligent, Alien, bugs...

I don't think that Intelligence necessitates Morality. I think that Morality to be a function of social animals, and specifically, in our case, is a function of our social Nature.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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2/6/2010 5:43:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 2/6/2010 5:29:32 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/6/2010 5:20:54 AM, GodSands wrote:
So you claim that evolution has build up what good and evil is...You begin and explain why evolution determines what good and evil is. Consider the notion of other planets which have evolved intelligent life also.

well lets start with Bugs.

Intelligent, Alien, bugs...

I don't think that Intelligence necessitates Morality. I think that Morality to be a function of social animals, and specifically, in our case, is a function of our social Nature.

Just intelligent beings, not bugs. Bugs maybe intelligent at what they do, but that does mean they are intelligent overall.

Morality is a function of our social nature. But in our socieity rape is considered unsocial. You are an outcast if you commit a rape, and you become more apart of society if you (always female) are victums of rape.

But what if on another planet rape is a good thing, if you are the rapists on this other planet you are rewarded well and so is the victum, because without the victum rape would not occour. Is this good or evil?
mattrodstrom
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2/6/2010 5:48:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/6/2010 5:29:32 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

I don't think that Intelligence necessitates Morality. I think that Morality to be a function of social animals, and specifically, in our case, is a function of our social Nature.

Other animals might not care one way or another about what we consider "moral" dilemmas, they might just care to suck your blood.

"Intelligence", by itself, doesn't make one care about anything. It just serves as a means to best understand and enact those things one cares about.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/6/2010 5:49:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/6/2010 5:43:55 AM, GodSands wrote:
Is this good or evil?

"Evil" as in the natural, and regularly occurring, human concept of evil?

I'd say yes.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/6/2010 5:53:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/6/2010 5:49:57 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/6/2010 5:43:55 AM, GodSands wrote:
Is this good or evil?

"Evil" as in the natural, and regularly occurring, human concept of evil?

I'd say yes.

Actually, No.

b/c I don't think that immoral creatures are deserving of moral rights.

It's not immoral to squish bugs, or (in the future) unplug uncaring, intelligent, computers.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."