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GodChoosesLife
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5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Truth_seeker
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5/4/2014 4:04:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Good points, i think your pastor has made a few great notes. I believe that God made 3 levels of his divine presence. 1. The natural world - everyone can see God's glory, both unbelievers and believers alike, but cannot see God's own true nature. 2. The spiritual realm - that is everything that is in spirit: angels, demons, and especially the Holy Ghost. Only those who are reborn through the life of Christ that they can understand the character of God through his Son. 3. The third heaven or God's abode - we as Christians have been redeemed, but we cannot fully enter into the deepest, most holiest place of God's presence because that would mean that we leave these earthly bodies and be transformed into heavenly ones through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The curse for disobedience given by Adam will lead us to a natural death, but a spiritual death to the cross where Jesus died will allow us to reach eternal life after his Resurrection!

If you noticed, the Cherubim have a set of wings covering their faces. This is because of their recognition and submission to the greatest, most and holiest perfect being of all: God.
Truth_seeker
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5/4/2014 4:08:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The very purpose of God manifesting himself in the body of Jesus Christ was to show man God's very own character and being because that is how we would understand.
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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5/4/2014 4:15:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Near-death experiencers who have reported seeing the light know without a doubt they have seen God. Once they enter into the light of God they never want to leave.

Excerpt from Jayne Smith's Near-Death Experience

"The joy of being in the light of God can be so intense, we may think we are going to shatter. But God will not let us shatter. We are not permitted to take in more of this bliss and joy than we are able to handle at a time."

Perhaps reading the experiences of people who had near death experiences will help shed some light on your understanding.

http://www.near-death.com...
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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5/4/2014 4:40:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)

If you're referring to Exodus 33 it is unclear as to whether or not the Lord means "man" cannot see my face, or if He means anyone period, of course because He is speaking to Moses it would be my opinion that He means "Human" cannot look at God and live in this verse.

If you,re thinking of John 1 it is also unclear to me anyway if He is speaking of physical creatures or spiritual as well.

Nonetheless Moses was able to behold God's glory although he was unable to look upon God's face he was able to get close to Him. So don't forget that part, you WILL be able to see God, and get close to Him.
SNP1
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5/4/2014 5:45:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 4:15:04 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Near-death experiencers who have reported seeing the light know without a doubt they have seen God. Once they enter into the light of God they never want to leave.

Excerpt from Jayne Smith's Near-Death Experience

"The joy of being in the light of God can be so intense, we may think we are going to shatter. But God will not let us shatter. We are not permitted to take in more of this bliss and joy than we are able to handle at a time."

Perhaps reading the experiences of people who had near death experiences will help shed some light on your understanding.

http://www.near-death.com...

You realize that near death experiences have been explainable for years?

When someone is close to death your brain activity actually increases. In experiments with rats it showed that the gamma frequency brain waves, which carry the most information, actually doubled during cardiac arrest.

http://www.bbc.com...
http://io9.com...
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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5/4/2014 5:58:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 5:45:52 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 4:15:04 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Near-death experiencers who have reported seeing the light know without a doubt they have seen God. Once they enter into the light of God they never want to leave.

Excerpt from Jayne Smith's Near-Death Experience

"The joy of being in the light of God can be so intense, we may think we are going to shatter. But God will not let us shatter. We are not permitted to take in more of this bliss and joy than we are able to handle at a time."

Perhaps reading the experiences of people who had near death experiences will help shed some light on your understanding.

http://www.near-death.com...

You realize that near death experiences have been explainable for years?

When someone is close to death your brain activity actually increases. In experiments with rats it showed that the gamma frequency brain waves, which carry the most information, actually doubled during cardiac arrest.

http://www.bbc.com...
http://io9.com...

Yes, I am aware of these studies. I am also aware of studies that suggest there is more to it. Studies are being conducted even today to further understand this phenomena. I review the totality of information out there - not just the ones that coincide with an agenda. Many of these resurrected patients awaken with very strange stories. They claim that they were conscious during the operation and out of their body, hovering above the doctors" head and from that vantage point they could see and hear what everyone was doing and saying. In one case, a woman told her doctor the serial number of his drill after the surgery. The skeptics explain that when the brain is deprived of oxygen it hallucinates. How does a hallucination explain these numerous types of experiences. This is just their theory. It is a very irrational explanation, but let us give them the benefit of doubt. It still does not explain the fact that the experiences of many of these patients are verifiable.
SNP1
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5/4/2014 6:06:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 5:58:11 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Yes, I am aware of these studies. I am also aware of studies that suggest there is more to it.

Can you link some?

Studies are being conducted even today to further understand this phenomena. I review the totality of information out there - not just the ones that coincide with an agenda.

I have looked at all the information I could find.

Many of these resurrected patients awaken with very strange stories.

Many people also dream strange things.

They claim that they were conscious during the operation and out of their body, hovering above the doctors" head and from that vantage point they could see and hear what everyone was doing and saying.

We are starting to understand out of body experiences (do not lump them together with NDEs. It might be a type of NDE but it is also different enough).

Scientists can induce OOBEs by using a virtual-reality-style set up of cameras linked to a head-mounted video display. Dr. Ehrsson's experiment involves participants wearing goggles containing a video screen for each eye. Each screen is fed images from a separate camera behind the participant and, because the two images were combined by the brain into a single image, they see a 3D image of their own back. Dr. Ehrsson then moves a plastic rod towards a location just below the cameras while the participant's real chest was simultaneously touched in the corresponding position. The participants report feeling that they are located back where the cameras are been placed, watching a body that belonged to someone else.

http://www.theguardian.com...
http://www.livescience.com...

Scientists at the University of Ottawa tracked down a woman who is able to enter this out of body experience state at will. In the experiment they hooked her up to the brain scanner and she saw herself floating in the air above herself, watching herself move while feeling completely unaware of her physical body. The MRI showed a deactivation of her visual cortex, while the part of her brain responsible for imagining body movement lit up.

http://www.geekosystem.com...

In one case, a woman told her doctor the serial number of his drill after the surgery.

Link please.

The skeptics explain that when the brain is deprived of oxygen it hallucinates. How does a hallucination explain these numerous types of experiences.

Ask the scientists that proved that. Also, mixing NDEs and OOBEs is not appropriate as they would obviously be different scientifically.

This is just their theory. It is a very irrational explanation, but let us give them the benefit of doubt. It still does not explain the fact that the experiences of many of these patients are verifiable.

How are they verifiable? If you are talking about OOBEs, we are still studying them. We understand that they do not require a soul to happen, but we do not yet completely understand them either.
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SemperVI
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5/4/2014 6:12:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
SNP1, I am not really interested in debating this issue with you - particularly on this thread.

I apologize GodChoosesLife. It was not my intent to get your thread hijacked. Hopefully this will bump it back to the topic at hand.
Idealist
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5/4/2014 6:18:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)

I think that the answer to this question would rely very much on how you define "seeing God." Would a person be able to see him as something other than his true form, like pure light? Is pure light his true form?

One thing I sometimes think about is that with all the knowledge God's mind would have to hold, there is no way that a human mind would be capable of understanding or even absorbing it all. Any person who got too close would be burned-up like a moth which circles a flame too closely. Looking at God in this light, either human minds would have to vastly increase in their capacity for knowledge or they would still not be able to be of like mind with God even in Heaven. Just the thought of a being with such a vast intellect can be frightening. If there's one thing scarier than the unknown it is probably the unknowable.
GodChoosesLife
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5/4/2014 6:18:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 6:12:41 PM, SemperVI wrote:
SNP1, I am not really interested in debating this issue with you - particularly on this thread.

I apologize GodChoosesLife. It was not my intent to get your thread hijacked. Hopefully this will bump it back to the topic at hand.

No problem, I still need to read what you all wrote anyways. Well I already did, just need to thoroughly read and analyze each of your points. Thank you for your apology and consideration. :)
I really do appreciate it greatly.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Conservative101
Posts: 191
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5/4/2014 6:22:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

I think that once we're in heaven, we are focused on becoming more spiritual. I think that if we commit sin in mortal life then we have the opportunity to repent and become better in the life to come. In my religion we believe in a state right after death, before judgement and resurrection, those who don't know the gospel are taught by those who do. They are given the opportunity to accept the gospel and accept Christ as their savior or they can reject him, and it is thereafter that we are judged. Just my two cents.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)
When in doubt, start riots and scream racism
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)

We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.
GodChoosesLife
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5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Intrepid
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5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).
GodChoosesLife
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5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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5/4/2014 8:13:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either.
And he knows this how?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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5/4/2014 8:25:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 6:18:24 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)

I think that the answer to this question would rely very much on how you define "seeing God." Would a person be able to see him as something other than his true form, like pure light? Is pure light his true form?

One thing I sometimes think about is that with all the knowledge God's mind would have to hold, there is no way that a human mind would be capable of understanding or even absorbing it all. Any person who got too close would be burned-up like a moth which circles a flame too closely. Looking at God in this light, either human minds would have to vastly increase in their capacity for knowledge or they would still not be able to be of like mind with God even in Heaven. Just the thought of a being with such a vast intellect can be frightening. If there's one thing scarier than the unknown it is probably the unknowable.

Pure light is not even capable of thinking let alone intelligent design.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

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Intrepid
Posts: 372
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5/4/2014 8:36:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?

By looking at it...?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/4/2014 9:05:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 8:25:37 PM, debateuser wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:18:24 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)

I think that the answer to this question would rely very much on how you define "seeing God." Would a person be able to see him as something other than his true form, like pure light? Is pure light his true form?

One thing I sometimes think about is that with all the knowledge God's mind would have to hold, there is no way that a human mind would be capable of understanding or even absorbing it all. Any person who got too close would be burned-up like a moth which circles a flame too closely. Looking at God in this light, either human minds would have to vastly increase in their capacity for knowledge or they would still not be able to be of like mind with God even in Heaven. Just the thought of a being with such a vast intellect can be frightening. If there's one thing scarier than the unknown it is probably the unknowable.

Pure light is not even capable of thinking let alone intelligent design.

Really? I talk to my lightbulb all the time. Its somewhat intelligent, so pure light must be far more intelligent.
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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5/4/2014 9:24:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 8:36:36 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?

By looking at it...?

Where do you do that?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/4/2014 9:30:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 9:24:34 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:36:36 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?

By looking at it...?

Where do you do that?

Hes hiding behind your couch. Havent you searched for him, yet?
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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5/4/2014 9:38:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 9:24:34 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:36:36 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?

By looking at it...?

Where do you do that?

You can't now without a miracle, since Jesus is physically dead.
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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5/4/2014 9:48:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 9:38:52 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 9:24:34 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:36:36 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?

By looking at it...?

Where do you do that?

You can't now without a miracle, since Jesus is physically dead.

So what do you mean by this
Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/4/2014 10:24:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 8:25:37 PM, debateuser wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:18:24 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/4/2014 3:49:10 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Today in church, my pastor was talking about why he believes that we cannot see God and even when those who are saved are in heaven will still not be able to look upon God. He explained that even the angels and cheraphims and others creatures that are already in heaven cannot look upon God either. Which I do believe that as humans we cannot see or look upon God just because like in the times of Moses, he was only able to see the back of Gods garment because had he seen God for who He truly was Moses would've died instantly. The reason for this is because God is perfectly holy and we as humans are full of sin an therefore are imperfectly unholy and -thus would define why we cannot see Him today.

Whereas the issue I cannot fully decide on is whether or not once in heaven, why we wouldn't we be able to look upon God if well be in His presence... I mean sin will no longer be of concern for us, we will have new bodies and new spirits as scripture says? So why wouldn't we be able to look upon God at this point? Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning and I'm sure were able to look upon God but they didn't die. Sin is what killed them spiritually and physically. Sure the angels and cheraphims and all those creatures already in heaven don't look upon God, but who's to really say that they can't? I mean, God made them perfectly. They too could've chosen to fall as other fallen angels did but thy didn't. So therefore they're perfectly innocent.

Now my pastor made a point that the angels and other creatures and us as humans are not Godly because well, were not God. That may be a good argument to gain from, but I still am undecided. Jesus lived on the earth but no one was struck dead when they looked upon Him. Yes He is the Son of God, but In terms of them being One, He permitted them to see Him even though He was a man in those times, but yet, He was still seen by His Disciples and even those who refused and rejected Him. So what would be the difference to that to being in heaven and actually being in their Presence for eternity? Why wouldn't we possibly be able to look upon God if we'd be without sin in heaven with Him?

What do my Christians think of this??? What's your position on these things?? Anyone else may give responses if you wish as well :)

I think that the answer to this question would rely very much on how you define "seeing God." Would a person be able to see him as something other than his true form, like pure light? Is pure light his true form?

One thing I sometimes think about is that with all the knowledge God's mind would have to hold, there is no way that a human mind would be capable of understanding or even absorbing it all. Any person who got too close would be burned-up like a moth which circles a flame too closely. Looking at God in this light, either human minds would have to vastly increase in their capacity for knowledge or they would still not be able to be of like mind with God even in Heaven. Just the thought of a being with such a vast intellect can be frightening. If there's one thing scarier than the unknown it is probably the unknowable.

Pure light is not even capable of thinking let alone intelligent design.

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough - the appearance could be one of pure light, kind of like a man standing behind a powerful spotlight. :)
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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5/4/2014 10:46:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 9:48:15 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 9:38:52 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 9:24:34 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:36:36 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 8:11:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/4/2014 7:33:46 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:41:47 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:40:14 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:24:53 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 5/4/2014 6:23:48 PM, Intrepid wrote:
We have already seen the face of God through Jesus. That being said, I think everything you just said about "not being able to see God" is basically a bunch of balderdash.

I think you missed my point. But thank you :)

Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

True, but remember they are 3 in 1? Trinity... They're their own Beings but united as One.. Make sense?

Yes I know that, but how is that relevant?

How do you see the face of jesus?

By looking at it...?

Where do you do that?

You can't now without a miracle, since Jesus is physically dead.

So what do you mean by this
Jesus was fully human and fully divine. God (The father) is fully divine. We can see Jesus's face. We can see the face of a divine being. Therefore we can see the face of God (the father).

I meant God physically revealed his face through the incarnation of Jesus, not that we can presently see Jesus' face lol.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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5/4/2014 11:08:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 4:04:30 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Good points, i think your pastor has made a few great notes. I believe that God made 3 levels of his divine presence. 1. The natural world - everyone can see God's glory, both unbelievers and believers alike, but cannot see God's own true nature. 2. The spiritual realm - that is everything that is in spirit: angels, demons, and especially the Holy Ghost. Only those who are reborn through the life of Christ that they can understand the character of God through his Son. 3. The third heaven or God's abode - we as Christians have been redeemed, but we cannot fully enter into the deepest, most holiest place of God's presence because that would mean that we leave these earthly bodies and be transformed into heavenly ones through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The curse for disobedience given by Adam will lead us to a natural death, but a spiritual death to the cross where Jesus died will allow us to reach eternal life after his Resurrection!

If you noticed, the Cherubim have a set of wings covering their faces. This is because of their recognition and submission to the greatest, most and holiest perfect being of all: God.

Yes, I did know about the cherubims situation, my pastor mentioned that as well. So that makes sense as well. Mmm, I may be convinced after all. I still wanna be sure though.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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5/4/2014 11:09:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 4:08:07 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
The very purpose of God manifesting himself in the body of Jesus Christ was to show man God's very own character and being because that is how we would understand.

Yeh, I understand this actually.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad