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Islamic Apologists

Objectivity
Posts: 1,664
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5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?
PureX
Posts: 2,448
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5/6/2014 10:44:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

I am imagining a photo of an Arab terrorist, with a bomb strapped to his chest and the caption underneath: "Islamic Apologist".
Fatihah
Posts: 8,849
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5/6/2014 11:56:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

Response: The fact that of every verse that says to fight non-believers, not one says to attack first or fight the innocent and there are verses that forbid fighting those who are peaceful. Therefore the alleged violent verses refer to self-defense, and self-defense is just. Proving Islam is peaceful and tolerant.
Objectivity
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5/7/2014 11:37:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 10:44:16 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

I am imagining a photo of an Arab terrorist, with a bomb strapped to his chest and the caption underneath: "Islamic Apologist".

lol
Objectivity
Posts: 1,664
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5/7/2014 11:43:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 11:56:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

Response: The fact that of every verse that says to fight non-believers, not one says to attack first or fight the innocent and there are verses that forbid fighting those who are peaceful. Therefore the alleged violent verses refer to self-defense, and self-defense is just. Proving Islam is peaceful and tolerant.

Quran (2:191-193) "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

This verse basically clarifies that 'fight' is used in a violent context:

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Quran (4:74)

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Quran (4:104)

Yes, killing an enemy while they are fleeing is definitely self defense.

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Obviously not self defense or a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Once again, evidence of the Quran promoting violence against non believers, not self defense.

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:5) -

The only way to not be slain (killed) is by becoming a Muslim.

Need I say anything more?
Fatihah
Posts: 8,849
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5/7/2014 12:20:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2014 11:43:51 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 5/6/2014 11:56:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

Response: The fact that of every verse that says to fight non-believers, not one says to attack first or fight the innocent and there are verses that forbid fighting those who are peaceful. Therefore the alleged violent verses refer to self-defense, and self-defense is just. Proving Islam is peaceful and tolerant.

Quran (2:191-193) "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

This verse basically clarifies that 'fight' is used in a violent context:

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Quran (4:74)

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Quran (4:104)

Yes, killing an enemy while they are fleeing is definitely self defense.

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Obviously not self defense or a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Once again, evidence of the Quran promoting violence against non believers, not self defense.

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:5) -

The only way to not be slain (killed) is by becoming a Muslim.


Need I say anything more?
Response: And in every verse you quoted that says to fight, not one says to fight first or attack the innocent. Therefore the fighting is in reference to offense or defense. And since verse 8:61 forbids fighting those who incline to peace and verse 2:256 forbids using compulsion, then the context proves that every verse you quoted refers to self-defense. Thus making my point.
bulproof
Posts: 27,924
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5/8/2014 1:31:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2014 12:20:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/7/2014 11:43:51 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 5/6/2014 11:56:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

Response: The fact that of every verse that says to fight non-believers, not one says to attack first or fight the innocent and there are verses that forbid fighting those who are peaceful. Therefore the alleged violent verses refer to self-defense, and self-defense is just. Proving Islam is peaceful and tolerant.

Quran (2:191-193) "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

This verse basically clarifies that 'fight' is used in a violent context:

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Quran (4:74)

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Quran (4:104)

Yes, killing an enemy while they are fleeing is definitely self defense.

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Obviously not self defense or a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Once again, evidence of the Quran promoting violence against non believers, not self defense.

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:5) -

The only way to not be slain (killed) is by becoming a Muslim.


Need I say anything more?
Response: And in every verse you quoted that says to fight, not one says to fight first or attack the innocent. Therefore the fighting is in reference to offense or defense. And since verse 8:61 forbids fighting those who incline to peace and verse 2:256 forbids using compulsion, then the context proves that every verse you quoted refers to self-defense. Thus making my point.

Explain how an ambush is defensive? especially when there is no mention of being attacked but it does mention attacking.
The lies that have indoctrinated you are simply meaningless to intelligent adults. You know what that says about you.
Heaven is just a tall building away.
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Fatihah
Posts: 8,849
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5/8/2014 8:30:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/8/2014 1:31:10 AM, bulproof wrote:

Explain how an ambush is defensive? especially when there is no mention of being attacked but it does mention attacking.
The lies that have indoctrinated you are simply meaningless to intelligent adults. You know what that says about you.

Response: And in every verse quoted that says to fight, not one says to fight first or attack the innocent. Therefore the fighting is in reference to offense or defense. And since verse 8:61 forbids fighting those who incline to peace and verse 2:256 forbids using compulsion, then the context proves that every verse you quoted refers to self-defense. Thus making my point. Debunked as usual.

Your inability to comprehend simple basic English is amusing. You know what it says about you.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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5/8/2014 8:57:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Explain how an ambush is defensive? especially when there is no mention of being attacked but it does mention attacking.
The lies that have indoctrinated you are simply meaningless to intelligent adults. You know what that says about you.

Objectivity tried to do a "hack-job" on the Quran, and left out verses before/after the ones he posted, that would contradict the image he's trying to present.

For instance, the "ambush" verse is qualified in previous verses, as only applying after a peace-treaty with the polytheists has expired, and they don't want it renewed. After the quoted verse, it also says if a polytheist should seek protection from you, you must give it to him.

It would be nice if you would actually read the Quran in its full context, before calling people liars/indoctrinated, as the only one who is coming off that way here, is you.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
bulproof
Posts: 27,924
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5/8/2014 9:33:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/8/2014 8:57:23 AM, HPWKA wrote:
Explain how an ambush is defensive? especially when there is no mention of being attacked but it does mention attacking.
The lies that have indoctrinated you are simply meaningless to intelligent adults. You know what that says about you.

Objectivity tried to do a "hack-job" on the Quran, and left out verses before/after the ones he posted, that would contradict the image he's trying to present.

For instance, the "ambush" verse is qualified in previous verses, as only applying after a peace-treaty with the polytheists has expired, and they don't want it renewed. After the quoted verse, it also says if a polytheist should seek protection from you, you must give it to him.

It would be nice if you would actually read the Quran in its full context, before calling people liars/indoctrinated, as the only one who is coming off that way here, is you.

I've actually read a lot of the koran and your equivocations and excuses only make sense to muslims.

Nowhere in the quoted text does it mention polytheists and nowhere does it mention being attacked.

It does however mention attacking.

Muslims and you can tell as many lies as you like, unfortunately those of us who can read and think for ourselves can see your lies for what they are.

LIES.
Heaven is just a tall building away.
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HPWKA
Posts: 401
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5/8/2014 11:47:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Nowhere in the quoted text does it mention polytheists and nowhere does it mention being attacked.

That's my whole point. The original author didn't quote verses that were either before/after the ones he DID choose to quote, because they contradict the story he's trying to tell.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/11/2014 12:20:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?
Your evidence is nonsensical. Have you ever practised critical text analysis? Citing a small fraction of a text to prove your point, and ignoring the context, terminology, historical background, and more - is amateurish, and certainly not sufficient to be evidence for anything, besides, again, your amateurish approach toward the subject.
Mirza
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5/11/2014 12:22:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2014 11:43:51 AM, Objectivity wrote:
Need I say anything more?
No, you need to take a literature and history class, both very helpful when it comes to dealing with analysis and textual criticism.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/11/2014 12:25:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/8/2014 1:31:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
Explain how an ambush is defensive?
Ambush has been used for various purposes, also of the defensive kind, through the existence of military conflict. An ambush in the case of the Qur'anic events was a pre-emptive strike, where war was already happening and a surprise attack was the best method for achieving victory. Or where a treaty was breached, so war was enacted by this very thing.
bulproof
Posts: 27,924
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5/11/2014 12:32:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/11/2014 12:25:38 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/8/2014 1:31:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
Explain how an ambush is defensive?
Ambush has been used for various purposes, also of the defensive kind, through the existence of military conflict. An ambush in the case of the Qur'anic events was a pre-emptive strike, where war was already happening and a surprise attack was the best method for achieving victory. Or where a treaty was breached, so war was enacted by this very thing.

So the book for all men of all time isn't. OK

It's all roundabouts and swings.
Heaven is just a tall building away.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/11/2014 12:33:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/11/2014 12:32:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/11/2014 12:25:38 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/8/2014 1:31:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
Explain how an ambush is defensive?
Ambush has been used for various purposes, also of the defensive kind, through the existence of military conflict. An ambush in the case of the Qur'anic events was a pre-emptive strike, where war was already happening and a surprise attack was the best method for achieving victory. Or where a treaty was breached, so war was enacted by this very thing.

blah blah
Good point.
bulproof
Posts: 27,924
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5/11/2014 1:11:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/11/2014 12:33:57 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/11/2014 12:32:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/11/2014 12:25:38 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/8/2014 1:31:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
Explain how an ambush is defensive?
Ambush has been used for various purposes, also of the defensive kind, through the existence of military conflict. An ambush in the case of the Qur'anic events was a pre-emptive strike, where war was already happening and a surprise attack was the best method for achieving victory. Or where a treaty was breached, so war was enacted by this very thing.

blah blah
Good point.

Must you continually LIE? Is that a religious thing?
Heaven is just a tall building away.
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Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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5/11/2014 8:53:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

You find this in many ancient holy books. The reason for this was that they were created in areas where those people were few, persecuted, or feared invasion or persecution. The religious texts are an extension of that fear, or desire for those on top to control.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Valtin
Posts: 50
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5/11/2014 2:00:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2014 11:43:51 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 5/6/2014 11:56:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

Response: The fact that of every verse that says to fight non-believers, not one says to attack first or fight the innocent and there are verses that forbid fighting those who are peaceful. Therefore the alleged violent verses refer to self-defense, and self-defense is just. Proving Islam is peaceful and tolerant.

Quran (2:191-193) "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

This verse basically clarifies that 'fight' is used in a violent context:

"Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Quran (4:74)

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Quran (4:104)

Yes, killing an enemy while they are fleeing is definitely self defense.

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Obviously not self defense or a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Once again, evidence of the Quran promoting violence against non believers, not self defense.

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:5) -

The only way to not be slain (killed) is by becoming a Muslim.


Need I say anything more?

I could refute all of your claims, because you are basically cherry picking, but I'd rather not waste time, you can debate me in this topic if you believe what you have said in the full context is what it seems -Permission of killing innocent human beings-.
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Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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5/12/2014 5:26:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/6/2014 10:06:32 AM, Objectivity wrote:
There is rather clear evidence from the Quran (which I will cite if need be) that condones and promotes violence in the Islamic religion against non believers, what arguments do apologists have for Islam that claim it is a peaceful religion or is a tolerant religion?

Usually it's ignorance of the context that leads to the judgement you have.

Bring the verses and I will show you.

By the way , if you don't want to waste your time, instead of reading one verse just read the chapter from the beginning, and if you don't speak Arabic, then don't read from translation of the meanings of Quran, rather read from translation of scholarly Tafseer ( books of interpretation of Quran) like Tafseer ibn Katheer, and Tabary ect.