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God creates people knowing they'll go to hell

Mhykiel
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5/13/2014 1:13:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

Are you mad because God is not pro-abortion for hellions?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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5/13/2014 1:16:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So an all-loving god created a being with free will, but knew it would be damned for eternal, unimaginable torment before it was even born?
Mhykiel
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5/13/2014 2:26:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:16:49 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
So an all-loving god created a being with free will, but knew it would be damned for eternal, unimaginable torment before it was even born?

You mean because an all-loving god gave that person a chance. Well if he didn't give the person a chance at life it would not really be free will, and not be all-loving, and be pretty much wrong, plus maybe that hell bond person needs to be born to bring something of god's will to pass so more people can be saved. It's not really being saved by your humility and acceptance if you just poof pop into heaven.

I don't know god's will so I can not say, but I certainly can say it would be a pretty raw deal if a soul was sent straight to hell.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/13/2014 9:41:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 2:26:57 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:16:49 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
So an all-loving god created a being with free will, but knew it would be damned for eternal, unimaginable torment before it was even born?

You mean because an all-loving god gave that person a chance. Well if he didn't give the person a chance at life it would not really be free will, and not be all-loving, and be pretty much wrong, plus maybe that hell bond person needs to be born to bring something of god's will to pass so more people can be saved. It's not really being saved by your humility and acceptance if you just poof pop into heaven.

I don't know god's will so I can not say, but I certainly can say it would be a pretty raw deal if a soul was sent straight to hell.

God knows all.
God knows that bul is in(there is no will be for god) heaven, can bul make a decision that will send him to hell and therefore prove god wrong?????
God knows, it's not a matter of what will happen, it's a matter of what is for god.
Can a person prove god's knowledge wrong?
Fanath
Posts: 830
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5/13/2014 10:35:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:13:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

Yep. Pretty obvious...
Are you mad because God is not pro-abortion for hellions?

I mean... I guess it kinda sucks that God gives us evil people.
Dude... Stop...
Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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5/13/2014 11:39:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mhykiel 2
You mean because an all-loving god gave that person a chance. Well if he didn't give the person a chance at life it would not really be free will, and not be all-loving, and be pretty much wrong, plus maybe that hell bond person needs to be born to bring something of god's will to pass so more people can be saved. It's not really being saved by your humility and acceptance if you just poof pop into heaven.
I don't know god's will so I can not say, but I certainly can say it would be a pretty raw deal if a soul was sent straight to hell.
There are a gazillion people who never existed and therefore never had a chance at life or a chance to make any choice. Is that wrong ?
If I gave you the chance to give me 100 euro, would you be grateful ?
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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5/13/2014 11:49:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 10:35:47 AM, Fanath wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:13:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

Yep. Pretty obvious...
Are you mad because God is not pro-abortion for hellions?

I mean... I guess it kinda sucks that God gives us evil people.

God created everything good. It is our choices that are evil.
Fanath
Posts: 830
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5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 11:49:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 10:35:47 AM, Fanath wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:13:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

Yep. Pretty obvious...
Are you mad because God is not pro-abortion for hellions?

I mean... I guess it kinda sucks that God gives us evil people.

God created everything good. It is our choices that are evil.

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.
Dude... Stop...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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5/13/2014 1:06:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.

- Jeremiah 29:11
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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5/13/2014 1:07:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:13:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

Are you mad because God is not pro-abortion for hellions?

Couldn't god simply create people that won't sin? I mean, for a 'normal' person, even if they were a skilled craftsman, they might make an imperfection of serious degree every once in a while. However, the Christian or all powerful deity is not supposed to be imperfect. This deity is all knowing, all powerful and all loving. So then, can this deity not create everyone perfect, or in a situation that gives them at the very least equal opportunity to be good or bad?

Isn't a person born to a poor family in a radical religious area significantly more likely to become a religious terrorist? Or a person that is drafted against their will significantly more likely to commit a war crime then one who had the choice of whether or not to enter the war? (not volunteer vs. draftee, but all people who are not drafted, whether they fight or not vs. draftees)
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
subgenius
Posts: 124
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5/13/2014 1:08:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

No, it is not true.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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5/13/2014 1:10:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

If there is true free will, then there is randomness to some degree. if there is randomness, then god cannot be all knowing. Also, what if there is something you don't know that you don't know?

In short, if god cannot know if we are evil, then he is not all knowing, and therefore, a less intelligent deity then we thought.

I personally much prefer all knowing to all powerful.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
subgenius
Posts: 124
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5/13/2014 1:17:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:07:43 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:13:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that?

Are you mad because God is not pro-abortion for hellions?

Couldn't god simply create people that won't sin? I mean, for a 'normal' person, even if they were a skilled craftsman, they might make an imperfection of serious degree every once in a while. However, the Christian or all powerful deity is not supposed to be imperfect. This deity is all knowing, all powerful and all loving. So then, can this deity not create everyone perfect, or in a situation that gives them at the very least equal opportunity to be good or bad?

Reference "The Stepford Wives" and/or "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"...and everyone currently does have "equal opportunity"
Isn't a person born to a poor family in a radical religious area significantly more likely to become a religious terrorist?

No
Or a person that is drafted against their will significantly more likely to commit a war crime then one who had the choice of whether or not to enter the war? (not volunteer vs. draftee, but all people who are not drafted, whether they fight or not vs. draftees)

Definitely No...but i do agree on one point...it is more likely that one will commit a war crime if they are actually in the war
Fanath
Posts: 830
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5/13/2014 1:18:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

Well we definitely don't have free will. God made us with the knowledge of what would happen, he knew where our "free will" would take us. There's other variables that God put on earth that makes it extremely clear that we have no free will.
Dude... Stop...
subgenius
Posts: 124
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5/13/2014 1:20:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:10:35 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

If there is true free will, then there is randomness to some degree. if there is randomness, then god cannot be all knowing. Also, what if there is something you don't know that you don't know?

In short, if god cannot know if we are evil, then he is not all knowing, and therefore, a less intelligent deity then we thought.

I personally much prefer all knowing to all powerful.

just because you know everything does not equate to doing anything about anything.
Additionally, it is common among Christian theologians to assume God's knowledge of everything is inherent as opposed to total...whereas God chooses to not know some things for the sake of free will....this idea being rejected by the likes John Calvin for the sake of his "predestination" theory.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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5/13/2014 1:44:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:10:35 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

If there is true free will, then there is randomness to some degree. if there is randomness, then god cannot be all knowing. Also, what if there is something you don't know that you don't know?

In short, if god cannot know if we are evil, then he is not all knowing, and therefore, a less intelligent deity then we thought.

I personally much prefer all knowing to all powerful.

Your premise would hold true if God was constrained by time, however God is not and all of time is in the present to him.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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5/13/2014 1:47:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:18:25 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

Well we definitely don't have free will. God made us with the knowledge of what would happen, he knew where our "free will" would take us. There's other variables that God put on earth that makes it extremely clear that we have no free will.

Then you've reduced yourself to a chemical reaction. You are trying to put all of your failings on God instead of manning up to them.
Fanath
Posts: 830
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5/13/2014 1:58:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:44:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:10:35 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

If there is true free will, then there is randomness to some degree. if there is randomness, then god cannot be all knowing. Also, what if there is something you don't know that you don't know?

In short, if god cannot know if we are evil, then he is not all knowing, and therefore, a less intelligent deity then we thought.

I personally much prefer all knowing to all powerful.

Your premise would hold true if God was constrained by time, however God is not and all of time is in the present to him.

That supports what I'm saying. God know's what happens in our timeline...
Dude... Stop...
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/13/2014 2:00:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:06:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?




My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.


- Jeremiah 29:11

+1
Fanath
Posts: 830
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5/13/2014 2:02:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:47:01 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:18:25 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

Well we definitely don't have free will. God made us with the knowledge of what would happen, he knew where our "free will" would take us. There's other variables that God put on earth that makes it extremely clear that we have no free will.

Then you've reduced yourself to a chemical reaction. You are trying to put all of your failings on God instead of manning up to them.

Nope. God probably isn't real, but it's his fault that anybody fails he is real.
Dude... Stop...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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5/13/2014 2:20:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:58:40 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:44:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:10:35 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

If there is true free will, then there is randomness to some degree. if there is randomness, then god cannot be all knowing. Also, what if there is something you don't know that you don't know?

In short, if god cannot know if we are evil, then he is not all knowing, and therefore, a less intelligent deity then we thought.

I personally much prefer all knowing to all powerful.

Your premise would hold true if God was constrained by time, however God is not and all of time is in the present to him.

That supports what I'm saying. God know's what happens in our timeline...

Yes he does, but he doesn't make you do it, it is your choice.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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5/13/2014 2:44:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

I think so.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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5/13/2014 2:56:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Not really. O.o
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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5/13/2014 2:57:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Would deny a criminal his life? A thief perhaps? Better to never have lived at all, eh?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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5/13/2014 3:17:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 2:57:50 PM, neutral wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?

Would deny a criminal his life? A thief perhaps? Better to never have lived at all, eh?

If hell is his final destination then yes. In retrospect if I had control of whether or not I was born and knew I was going to hell I'd rather not be born at all.
Benshapiro
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5/13/2014 3:18:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 2:00:35 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:06:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:38:42 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Even before they were born. Is this not true?




My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.


- Jeremiah 29:11

+1

"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12) "Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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5/13/2014 3:20:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:47:01 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:18:25 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

Well we definitely don't have free will. God made us with the knowledge of what would happen, he knew where our "free will" would take us. There's other variables that God put on earth that makes it extremely clear that we have no free will.

Then you've reduced yourself to a chemical reaction. You are trying to put all of your failings on God instead of manning up to them.

A man chooses his heart but not his footsteps.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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5/13/2014 3:22:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/13/2014 1:44:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:10:35 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 5/13/2014 1:03:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/13/2014 12:50:26 PM, Fanath wrote:

Nope. God would make them holding the future knowledge that we would be evil. It's completely his fault for putting the creations in an order that would create evil.

Only if you assume that we are nothing but dominoes in a chain without free will.

If there is true free will, then there is randomness to some degree. if there is randomness, then god cannot be all knowing. Also, what if there is something you don't know that you don't know?

In short, if god cannot know if we are evil, then he is not all knowing, and therefore, a less intelligent deity then we thought.

I personally much prefer all knowing to all powerful.

Your premise would hold true if God was constrained by time, however God is not and all of time is in the present to him.

That is not possible. If god ever completes an action, that requires two temporal states to create cause and effect.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved