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God is evil

nonprophet
Posts: 100
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5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If there really was a God that created us, he (it) has to be the most evil thing that
ever existed.
He creates living beings that are self-aware. He then gives us certain instincts that compel us to do certain things.
One instinct is the survival instinct which compels us to do whatever it takes to
survive. Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact
that every living thing dies.
Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though
it is futile to even try.
In addition, we are compelled by hunger to nourish ourselves. The only way to
do that is to consume other living things. That means we must kill (plants or animals) against their own survival instinct, in order to try to survive ourselves. Yes, I do believe plants have a survival instinct. Plants try to grow towards sunlight in order to survive, for example.
Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware
beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.
Christian_Debater
Posts: 24
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5/14/2014 10:03:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
If there really was a God that created us, he (it) has to be the most evil thing that
ever existed.
He creates living beings that are self-aware. He then gives us certain instincts that compel us to do certain things.
One instinct is the survival instinct which compels us to do whatever it takes to
survive. Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact
that every living thing dies.
Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though
it is futile to even try.
In addition, we are compelled by hunger to nourish ourselves. The only way to
do that is to consume other living things. That means we must kill (plants or animals) against their own survival instinct, in order to try to survive ourselves. Yes, I do believe plants have a survival instinct. Plants try to grow towards sunlight in order to survive, for example.
Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware
beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

Interesting perspective. Would you like to further talk about it - more specifically, Christianity?

I'd be glad to answer all of your questions, but I'm going to ask first if you really want an answer, or if you want to just bash God. I can't force you to listen afterall.

Moreover, after reading over your argument in our debate, you are improving in your debating skills. Congratulations.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/15/2014 1:42:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
If there really was a God that created us, he (it) has to be the most evil thing that
ever existed.

God is life and life can indeed be very cruel but life is not a supernatural entity. It is an energy which works through living things.

He creates living beings that are self-aware. He then gives us certain instincts that compel us to do certain things.

Nothing but humans create humans. It always takes two to make one and that has always been the case in reality. Any other stories about human origins are stories which were taught to humans by humans who had no knowledge of the reproduction process but believed fairy tales about human origins.

One instinct is the survival instinct which compels us to do whatever it takes to
survive. Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact
that every living thing dies.
Individual life forms die daily but life goes on due to lifes own reproduction cycles. Life lives and dies at the same time.

Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though
it is futile to even try.

Life is what it is and all we can do is follow our instincts and learn what we can to pass down to future generations so they will hopefully be less ignorant and superstitious than the present generations. If we can manage to make our children smarter than we are, we will have accomplished something worthwhile.

In addition, we are compelled by hunger to nourish ourselves. The only way to
do that is to consume other living things. That means we must kill (plants or animals) against their own survival instinct, in order to try to survive ourselves. Yes, I do believe plants have a survival instinct. Plants try to grow towards sunlight in order to survive, for example.

Life has a tendency to reproduce and renew itself in spite of destroying itself.

Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware
beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.

We are merely the containers of the seeds of life. The containers perish but life keeps reproducing new seed containers by growing its own seeds. Many come from one.

This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.

It is what it is. All we can do is accept death as part of the cycle of life. In the end we are all just fertilizer and food for the earth.

Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.

Your body is nothing but a temporary tent in which you live. The physical things die but the thoughts, knowledge and all those intangible things remain in the hearts and minds of those who embrace them.

If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.

Life ( God) creates life in its own image. That image lives and dies daily. It is a natural cycle.

So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The cycle of life contains positives as well as negatives. If we had one without the other life would not be balanced and we would have no clue that anything we currently determine to be positive was actually positive since there would be no opposites with which to make comparisons.

The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

Life is not a supernatural being which enjoys making anything struggle any more than you enjoy making mistakes or being ignorant of anything. Those who enjoy causing suffering to others are not well adjusted and have mental problems. That includes any supernatural entities who threaten people with eternal torture if they do not believe in them while at the same time not revealing themselves to them. Life plainly is what it is and all we can do is make the most of it and learn what we can from it. Crazy humans do crazy thing. Supernatural gods are myths and crazy notions invented by our ignorant ancestors so they can control other humans to do as they say in their precious supernatural writings. There is great power in the pen when people believe what you write.

Father God is no more supernatural than Mother Nature. It is a term invented to personify natural phenomenon and make people believe that their wrong doings or sins somehow cause the natural disasters on earth. It is part of ancient superstition which has been passed down for generations for all eternity and will always be passed down by those who are brainwashed by it and don't question their own cultural teachings.

Some of us live and learn. Others just exist and learn nothing in the process.
Keltron
Posts: 161
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5/15/2014 1:48:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
God is moral. What I mean by that is that God is the embodiment of our collective moral values. The interesting thing about morality is that it is very often the measure of what evil is permissible, rather than what good is desirable.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/15/2014 2:32:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
If there really was a God that created us, he (it) has to be the most evil thing that
ever existed.
He creates living beings that are self-aware. He then gives us certain instincts that compel us to do certain things.
One instinct is the survival instinct which compels us to do whatever it takes to
survive. Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact
that every living thing dies.
Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though
it is futile to even try.
In addition, we are compelled by hunger to nourish ourselves. The only way to
do that is to consume other living things. That means we must kill (plants or animals) against their own survival instinct, in order to try to survive ourselves. Yes, I do believe plants have a survival instinct. Plants try to grow towards sunlight in order to survive, for example.
Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware
beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

Can you prove with say, biblical text, or reasoning that God gets enjoyment out of seeing mankind suffer?

Can you show me where this suffering is applied with out a just cause?
ethang5
Posts: 4,098
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5/15/2014 6:35:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
If there really was a God that created us, he (it) has to be the most evil thing that
ever existed.
He creates living beings that are self-aware. He then gives us certain instincts that compel us to do certain things.
One instinct is the survival instinct which compels us to do whatever it takes to
survive. Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact
that every living thing dies.
Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though
it is futile to even try.
In addition, we are compelled by hunger to nourish ourselves. The only way to
do that is to consume other living things. That means we must kill (plants or animals) against their own survival instinct, in order to try to survive ourselves. Yes, I do believe plants have a survival instinct. Plants try to grow towards sunlight in order to survive, for example.
Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware
beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

If all the Bible said was that God exists, nonprophet would be quite right.

But almost all his gripes listed above are addressed in Christian doctrine. I say "almost all" because some of them need tweaking to be less incorrect. For example,

Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware beings (without them asking for it),

Um, we may be attracted to sex, but we aren't attracted to making babies. And we could argue whether "compelled" is the correct word here. Also, no matter how attracted or compelled homosexuals are to sex, they won't make babies.

Now, I know the OP doesn't mention Christianity, but if it includes Christianity's version of God in this condemnation, that would be illogical. You cannot leave out parts of the story and then claim the story doesn't make sense. For example,

Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact that every living thing dies.

This simply isn't the whole story. 1. The creator did not make it so that everything dies. And, 2. Survival is not 100% impossible. It is a person's right to reject Christianity's narrative, but it isn't reasonable to reject it and then call the remaining half story a fabrication.

This claim....
Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though it is futile to even try.
Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.

....will completely fall apart if the claim is wrong about us being "compelled" to "have sex and make new self-aware beings".

Are we so compelled? Are homosexuals exceptions?
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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5/15/2014 11:20:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

According to the Bible, everything was good, when good created. And I believe that. And then people rejected God and now we have all kind of unpleasant things. I think it is our fault, not God"s.
Angelos
Posts: 30
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5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.
Fanath
Posts: 830
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5/15/2014 12:54:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 10:03:26 PM, Christian_Debater wrote:
I'd be glad to answer all of your questions, but I'm going to ask first if you really want an answer, or if you want to just bash God. I can't force you to listen afterall.

I'm willing to listen to your logic on why the Christian God isn't iniquitous.
Dude... Stop...
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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5/15/2014 5:03:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Assuming such an all-powerful/all-knowing God exists, couldn't it follow that whatever he then wills, is by definition, "morally right"? The fact that some of us may disagree with his actions wouldn't reflect one way or another on them.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/15/2014 5:15:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
If there really was a God that created us, he (it) has to be the most evil thing that
ever existed.
He creates living beings that are self-aware. He then gives us certain instincts that compel us to do certain things.
One instinct is the survival instinct which compels us to do whatever it takes to
survive. Yet, this same "creator" made survival 100% impossible due to the fact
that every living thing dies.
Nobody asks to be born, so we are forced to exist and try to survive even though
it is futile to even try.
In addition, we are compelled by hunger to nourish ourselves. The only way to
do that is to consume other living things. That means we must kill (plants or animals) against their own survival instinct, in order to try to survive ourselves. Yes, I do believe plants have a survival instinct. Plants try to grow towards sunlight in order to survive, for example.
Another thing that we are compelled to do is have sex and make new self-aware
beings (without them asking for it), so that they too are forced into the same situation of futile survival.
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

Well, we have enough nukes in the world to allow us to be "kind" enough to everyone to blast them out of existence in just a matter of minutes. That has to be a lot better than the "torture" of surviving, no? In just a little while there would be no more hunger, no more fear, no more depressing acts of sex. Good is evil and evil is good. Hmmm...how ironic.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/15/2014 5:25:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 1:48:53 AM, Keltron wrote:
God is moral. What I mean by that is that God is the embodiment of our collective moral values. The interesting thing about morality is that it is very often the measure of what evil is permissible, rather than what good is desirable.

It's amazing how few people actually seem to understand that.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/15/2014 5:31:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.

Parents punish their children in order to instill a sense of right and wrong. I can't count how many times I was punished as a child, but I don't think it was because my parents wanted me to fear them. At most they wanted me to respect their authority so i would listen to them and learn from their knowledge. Now answer honestly: how annoying is a spoiled child who has never been punished?
ethang5
Posts: 4,098
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6/3/2014 11:05:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 5:31:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.

Parents punish their children in order to instill a sense of right and wrong. I can't count how many times I was punished as a child, but I don't think it was because my parents wanted me to fear them. At most they wanted me to respect their authority so i would listen to them and learn from their knowledge. Now answer honestly: how annoying is a spoiled child who has never been punished?

Very.

You would probably conclude that his parents didn't love him very much.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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6/3/2014 11:52:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 11:05:06 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 5:31:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.

Parents punish their children in order to instill a sense of right and wrong. I can't count how many times I was punished as a child, but I don't think it was because my parents wanted me to fear them. At most they wanted me to respect their authority so i would listen to them and learn from their knowledge. Now answer honestly: how annoying is a spoiled child who has never been punished?

Very.

You would probably conclude that his parents didn't love him very much.

Do you think that maybe the parents were teaching the child the difference between obedience and disobedience?
Just like god DIDN"T with A&E?

God's capacity as a parent can be compared to how bricks float in the air.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/3/2014 12:12:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 11:20:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 5/14/2014 8:46:06 PM, nonprophet wrote:
This whole system is really just torture. Here we are, given no choice but to either
kill and try to survive another day or end up not existing anymore.
Also, the "reward" for surviving is the slow deterioration of our bodies causing us
pain, blindness, sickness and many other problems to deal with.
If God created life, he also created pain and suffering with diseases and old age.
So, if God really "loves" us, why did he create this endless cycle of pain, suffering
and the futile desire to survive?
The only reasonable answer is that he ENJOYS making us struggle, which is sadistic, not loving.

According to the Bible, everything was good, when good created. And I believe that. And then people rejected God and now we have all kind of unpleasant things. I think it is our fault, not God"s.

I dont see how that is fair, for adam and eve to represent all of humanity like that, without our knowledge.

Nor do i find punishing people who do not understand the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, as fair or just either.

And neither do you, im guessing.
ethang5
Posts: 4,098
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6/3/2014 1:15:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 11:52:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/3/2014 11:05:06 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 5:31:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.

Parents punish their children in order to instill a sense of right and wrong. I can't count how many times I was punished as a child, but I don't think it was because my parents wanted me to fear them. At most they wanted me to respect their authority so i would listen to them and learn from their knowledge. Now answer honestly: how annoying is a spoiled child who has never been punished?

Very.

You would probably conclude that his parents didn't love him very much.

Do you think that maybe the parents were teaching the child the difference between obedience and disobedience?

No. Allowing a child to be disobedient is hardly teaching him the difference.

Just like god DIDN"T with A&E?

Yet Adam and Eve disagree with you. Funny huh?

God's capacity as a parent can be compared to how bricks float in the air.

God is not your parent. You are of your Father the devil, which is why you do the works of your father.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/3/2014 2:51:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 12:12:42 PM, tkubok wrote:
I dont see how that is fair, for adam and eve to represent all of humanity like that, without our knowledge.

I think it is fair that we are all hear to learn, because I believe all would want to learn what good and evil is. And I think this is not bad, because God has given us opportunity to come back to life.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

Nor do i find punishing people who do not understand the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, as fair or just either.

I think God has not done wrong judgment. Adam and Eve knew what will happen if they eat the fruit, and still they chose it, even though they could have asked more information directly from God.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/3/2014 3:15:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 2:51:00 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/3/2014 12:12:42 PM, tkubok wrote:
I dont see how that is fair, for adam and eve to represent all of humanity like that, without our knowledge.

I think it is fair that we are all hear to learn, because I believe all would want to learn what good and evil is. And I think this is not bad, because God has given us opportunity to come back to life.

How does that make it fair in the first place?

I think God has not done wrong judgment. Adam and Eve knew what will happen if they eat the fruit, and still they chose it, even though they could have asked more information directly from God.

Sure. But why would you punish them? When a child of 4-5 is told not to do something, even if they knew what would happen, you wouldnt punish them by kicking them out of the house, or sentencing them to death, would you?
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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6/3/2014 9:01:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 11:05:06 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 5:31:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.

Parents punish their children in order to instill a sense of right and wrong. I can't count how many times I was punished as a child, but I don't think it was because my parents wanted me to fear them. At most they wanted me to respect their authority so i would listen to them and learn from their knowledge. Now answer honestly: how annoying is a spoiled child who has never been punished?

Very.

You would probably conclude that his parents didn't love him very much.

I would probably conclude that his parents weren't wise enough to differentiate between what was good for him and what was easiest for them.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/4/2014 2:04:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/3/2014 3:15:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
Sure. But why would you punish them? When a child of 4-5 is told not to do something, even if they knew what would happen, you wouldnt punish them by kicking them out of the house, or sentencing them to death, would you?

People wanted to know good and evil like God. To know them like God, we had to enter this world. Here we can learn what evil and good really means. Therefore this world is really only like lesson that we must have, because of what Adam and Eve chose. I think this lesson is not actually punishment. I think this is more likely gift.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/5/2014 4:50:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you are claiming that evil objectively exist, can you explain how it can objectively exist without God?

Second of all, you did not prove that gratuitous or unjustified evil exists. If you have evidence that is not based on human subjectivity (Predation is good for the predator and bad for the prey) then kindly provide it.

Abrahamic religions don't just believe that God is good (if you assume morality is objective) and omnipotent; there are many other characteristics like just, wise, etc...

You are using an argument from ignorance, "I don't see the wisdom, therefore the wisdom doesn't exist", however that is like claiming that you are omniscient and infinitely wise and knowing of the characteristics and attributes of God.

Finally, you are assuming that the purpose of this world is to be happy, have fun, and party. That exists in the concept of heaven. I consider this world a testing place. Suffering motivates us to improve. We feel lonely and unsafe, we make communities. We are uncomfortable, we create comfort. We feel the pain of ignorance, we seek knowledge.
The bottom line is, if there is no suffering, there is no reason to worship God at all.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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6/5/2014 9:43:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The analogy of the Christian god being a "good" parent and the source of morality is simply absurd. If we sold our kids in to slavery multiple times (at least 5 or 6 times) would we be considered a good parents? What about letting our children be raped, and forcing them to marry their rapist? What about killing some of our children? What about killing other people's children because we thought they were bad? The list goes on and on. If the Christian god is real, he is not a good parent, nor is he moral. Often the "punishments" in the Bible do not fit the offenses and are grossly malicious, so stop deluding yourselves. Have you guys pushing god as the source of morality and/or god is a good parent actually read the Bible?!
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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6/5/2014 10:14:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 9:43:45 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
The analogy of the Christian god being a "good" parent and the source of morality is simply absurd. If we sold our kids in to slavery multiple times (at least 5 or 6 times) would we be considered a good parents? What about letting our children be raped, and forcing them to marry their rapist? What about killing some of our children? What about killing other people's children because we thought they were bad? The list goes on and on. If the Christian god is real, he is not a good parent, nor is he moral. Often the "punishments" in the Bible do not fit the offenses and are grossly malicious, so stop deluding yourselves. Have you guys pushing god as the source of morality and/or god is a good parent actually read the Bible?!

Well, that's assuming you take the Bible literally and we assume that the Bible was written by Jesus himself.

Clearly, that's not the case. The Bible is infused with plenty of passages reflecting the cultural norms of the time, and was made by humans with biases and opinions. It was inspired off of Jesus's teachings, but it wasn't actually written by Jesus himself.
slo1
Posts: 4,330
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6/5/2014 10:22:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 5:31:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/15/2014 12:34:04 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God created all these evil (calamities, tragedies, immoral actions, etc.) because of one reason: to show His power and anger. The biblical God wants His own creations to fear Him. It has been shown many times throughout the bible that we must fear the biblical God. Otherwise, He'll punish us.

Parents punish their children in order to instill a sense of right and wrong. I can't count how many times I was punished as a child, but I don't think it was because my parents wanted me to fear them. At most they wanted me to respect their authority so i would listen to them and learn from their knowledge. Now answer honestly: how annoying is a spoiled child who has never been punished?

Indeed! Spare putting out cigarettes on the child spoil the child!

God who smites millions of people and punishes them to hell by eliminating their opportunity to earn their way to heaven can not be compared to a Father who appropriately disciplines a child.
slo1
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6/5/2014 10:36:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I love watching all the spin when it comes to the morality of God. By any human definition of justice it is rather clear that God is not just.

Anyone who prompts Christianity can only honestly conclude that we don't know why God acts the way he does but we will trust it is for good and not evil.

I'm more about Ronnie Reagan's, "Trust but verify". Of course when someone gives you the reason not to trust them you are just a sucker if you do.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/5/2014 12:02:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 10:36:23 AM, slo1 wrote:
I love watching all the spin when it comes to the morality of God. By any human definition of justice it is rather clear that God is not just.

Anyone who prompts Christianity can only honestly conclude that we don't know why God acts the way he does but we will trust it is for good and not evil.

I'm more about Ronnie Reagan's, "Trust but verify". Of course when someone gives you the reason not to trust them you are just a sucker if you do.

Again, by assuming the existence of objective morality, then provide a basis for it other than God who supposedly doesn't exist.
You are claiming that a line is crooked. So what is the straight line and where does it come from?

I am not a Christian, but in Abrahamic religions, judgement and justice is provided in the after life.
slo1
Posts: 4,330
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6/5/2014 1:38:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 12:02:54 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 6/5/2014 10:36:23 AM, slo1 wrote:
I love watching all the spin when it comes to the morality of God. By any human definition of justice it is rather clear that God is not just.

Anyone who prompts Christianity can only honestly conclude that we don't know why God acts the way he does but we will trust it is for good and not evil.

I'm more about Ronnie Reagan's, "Trust but verify". Of course when someone gives you the reason not to trust them you are just a sucker if you do.

Again, by assuming the existence of objective morality, then provide a basis for it other than God who supposedly doesn't exist.
You are claiming that a line is crooked. So what is the straight line and where does it come from?

I am not a Christian, but in Abrahamic religions, judgement and justice is provided in the after life.

There is no such thing as objective morality, Christian God or no God. God's will does not equal objective morality just because it may have ultimate power to do what it wants. In fact its will as documented in the bible is pretty much against the best subjective morality mankind has laid out to maximize the quality of life for all humans including its definition of justice.

The true Christian God is a vengeful God. One does not worship it because it knows objectively what morality is. One worships God because one is afraid of him and what he will do to you if you don't live by some rule set that nobody can even agree upon anyway.

If you are lucky enough to be born in the house of someone lucky enough to practice the right rule set, maybe just maybe you will be able to make it to heaven. The rest of us were judged long before we were even born.
Skepticalone
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6/5/2014 2:04:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 10:14:04 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/5/2014 9:43:45 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
The analogy of the Christian god being a "good" parent and the source of morality is simply absurd. If we sold our kids in to slavery multiple times (at least 5 or 6 times) would we be considered a good parents? What about letting our children be raped, and forcing them to marry their rapist? What about killing some of our children? What about killing other people's children because we thought they were bad? The list goes on and on. If the Christian god is real, he is not a good parent, nor is he moral. Often the "punishments" in the Bible do not fit the offenses and are grossly malicious, so stop deluding yourselves. Have you guys pushing god as the source of morality and/or god is a good parent actually read the Bible?!

Well, that's assuming you take the Bible literally and we assume that the Bible was written by Jesus himself.

Clearly, that's not the case. The Bible is infused with plenty of passages reflecting the cultural norms of the time, and was made by humans with biases and opinions. It was inspired off of Jesus's teachings, but it wasn't actually written by Jesus himself.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. Unless you mean Jesus in the sense of the "trinity" inspired men to write the Bible, then you obviously don't know what you are talking about. Most people would never say "Jesus wrote the Bible" (I certainly would not). The New Testament is the first time we hear of Jesus's teaching and parts of the Old testament predates Jesus (assuming he actually existed) by some 1500 years. For clarity, I was referring to the whole Bible. Jesus obviously thought some (if not all) of the OT stories were to be taken literally judging by his words in the NT. So, if you accept Jesus as the son of god, then you must take at least some of the old testament literally. The story of Noah's ark, Cain and Abel, the exodus of the Jews/manna from heaven, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jonah in the whale were not viewed as fiction by Jesus. So, if you like I can choose from one of those to make my point: If the Christian god is real, he is not a good parent, nor is he moral. I reject your explanation.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten