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Hell!!!!!!!

matt.mcguire88
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5/15/2014 6:02:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hell is a place of fire and brimstone where the skin melts off your face....... ONLY kidding.

So okay it seems that the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?............. Let's look at it from a different point of view other than having your feelings hurt.

But let's imagine for a moment that God never revealed the concept and reality of a place called Hell. While it is true, even the thought of a place like Hell is not even enough to deter man from evil........a man from murder...a man from being a filthy vile animal....
Now let's imagine what the world might be like if the concept of Hell was not looming over our heads?..... ever thought about that? I'm willing to bet all that I have to suggest we WOULD be faaaaar worse off, okay it's my own opinion but think about it... What would a man do without fear of consequence?

Now another point I would like to make is that Hell within "Christian" teachings is very small in comparison with the rest of the picture, God's mercy, forgiveness, acceptance, redeeming nature, long suffering and patients that we might be willing to comply and learn. Every single individual that is alive is a redeemable soul, that means that the verses concerning Hell are for warning (and for good merit), nobody has to go there, and no non believer should reject Christianity based on the idea of Hell. You cannot mix evil with good, therefore there must be a separation (Heaven and Hell), God cannot allow evil within righteousness.

Having said that no one knows what Hell actually is in the first place unless we have first hand experience. I think God to be wise to have revealed this reality because it is only logical. Not the idea of "torturing souls", but the reality of good and evil and that God sees it for what it is and will judge it.
Ragnar
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5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

Regarding hell: (again, IMO) some people use it as a threat. It goes along the lines of "you either agree with me or suffer." I have actually heard such an argument applied to children "if you don't get your child baptized. They'll might go to hell, and suffer" (admittedly paraphrased). People who do this tend to forget that officially many people are recognized as being in heaven (saints), yet not one person in the history of Christianity, is evil enough to be officially recognized as being in hell.

The definition of terrorism is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion," many (not all, not even most) people talking about hell, cross the line into becoming terrorists.
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SemperVI
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5/15/2014 6:18:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Honestly, I don't believe it would have any bearing on the outcome of humanity throughout the ages as illustrated by you're own arguments.

Such ideas do not, and will not deter the nature of man when he or she personifies atrocities (evil). If this were the case, the death penalty would be an effective deterrent. As such, it succeeds 100% in only one thing, this being recidivism.
matt.mcguire88
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5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Regarding hell: (again, IMO) some people use it as a threat. It goes along the lines of "you either agree with me or suffer." I have actually heard such an argument applied to children "if you don't get your child baptized. They'll might go to hell, and suffer" (admittedly paraphrased). People who do this tend to forget that officially many people are recognized as being in heaven (saints), yet not one person in the history of Christianity, is evil enough to be officially recognized as being in hell.

The definition of terrorism is "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion," many (not all, not even most) people talking about hell, cross the line into becoming terrorists.
matt.mcguire88
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5/15/2014 7:15:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 6:18:10 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Honestly, I don't believe it would have any bearing on the outcome of humanity throughout the ages as illustrated by you're own arguments.

Wow...

Such ideas do not, and will not deter the nature of man when he or she personifies atrocities (evil). If this were the case, the death penalty would be an effective deterrent. As such, it succeeds 100% in only one thing, this being recidivism.

While I said this in the OP, I still believe that the concept serves it's purpose in it's own way.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/15/2014 8:11:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 6:02:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Hell is a place of fire and brimstone where the skin melts off your face....... ONLY kidding.

Hell is a state of mind and conscience.... Not kidding.

So okay it seems that the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?............. Let's look at it from a different point of view other than having your feelings hurt.

I doubt any unbelievers get their knickers in a knot over something they don't believe in.
The only people who get their feelings hurt over anything are the overly sensitive and immature. It makes no difference what they believe.

But let's imagine for a moment that God never revealed the concept and reality of a place called Hell. While it is true, even the thought of a place like Hell is not even enough to deter man from evil........a man from murder...a man from being a filthy vile animal....

God never revealed anything to anyone. Mans own imagination creates fantasies in the minds and hearts of mankind. Humans reveal these fantasies to each other through stories and various art forms.
No imaginary place can deter people from following their own instincts and feeding their own lusts.

Now let's imagine what the world might be like if the concept of Hell was not looming over our heads?..... ever thought about that? I'm willing to bet all that I have to suggest we WOULD be faaaaar worse off, okay it's my own opinion but think about it... What would a man do without fear of consequence?

There is always a fear of consequences when one has experienced unwanted consequences and understands them, but there is never a fear of consequences when people only perceive consequences as a fantasy. Hell is definitely just a concept and an imaginary threat. One needs to believe it exits to fear it. Plenty of people live in hell on earth and have done absolutely nothing to deserve such hardships, pain and suffering in their lives. Death to some of those people is the only way to escape the hell they live in. Many commit suicide to escape their hell on earth. The concept of being eternally tortured in a lake of fire is barbaric and very superstitious. You would think todays generations would have left all that behind by now and advanced mentally and emotionally but it seems the barbaric beliefs of our superstitious ancestors has a greater effect on human nature than people like to admit.

Now another point I would like to make is that Hell within "Christian" teachings is very small in comparison with the rest of the picture, God's mercy, forgiveness, acceptance, redeeming nature, long suffering and patients that we might be willing to comply and learn. Every single individual that is alive is a redeemable soul, that means that the verses concerning Hell are for warning (and for good merit), nobody has to go there, and no non believer should reject Christianity based on the idea of Hell. You cannot mix evil with good, therefore there must be a separation (Heaven and Hell), God cannot allow evil within righteousness.

What exactly do people need redeeming from? Babies are born innocent not guilty of anything like Christianity teaches. No one is guilty of anything till they actually commit a crime by breaking a law. No new born has ever broken any laws.
With what exactly do people need to comply... Certain religious rules and concepts of Christianity or some other religion or mere simple human kindness and compassion?
Adults teach the youth about consequences in reality. Actions cause reactions and they are often immediate or at least happen during ones earthly lifetime. No person needs to wait till after they die to be rewarded for their actions or suffer the consequences of wrong doings. To believe there is a reward or punishment after death is a fantasy. The only place people go after death is into the grave.
The dead know nothing and feel nothing according to the bible. If that is true they cannot feel pain of suffering or even happiness. The dead simply rest in peace and are not even aware of anything. They end up in the same state as they were before they were born... Knowing nothing and having no awareness of their own existence.

Having said that no one knows what Hell actually is in the first place unless we have first hand experience. I think God to be wise to have revealed this reality because it is only logical. Not the idea of "torturing souls", but the reality of good and evil and that God sees it for what it is and will judge it.

Plenty of people know what hell actually is. If they did not, they would not describe it as a place of pain, suffering and torture. The term "hell on earth" would not exist. The place of pain and suffering is something people experience within themselves. It is not a location outside of themselves. It is a state of heart, mind and conscience. You can live in hell on earth or heaven on earth. It all depends on ones attitudes and motives and how one relates to their own circumstances. No soul can be tortured outside of a body. A spirit is intangible and cannot be physically harmed. You cannot hurt dead people.
Ragnar
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5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

When it crosses the line into terrorism.

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made, I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.
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matt.mcguire88
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5/16/2014 7:35:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:11:32 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:02:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Hell is a place of fire and brimstone where the skin melts off your face....... ONLY kidding.

Hell is a state of mind and conscience.... Not kidding.

I agree. Excuse my humor in this post, not meant to be disrespectful.

So okay it seems that the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?............. Let's look at it from a different point of view other than having your feelings hurt.

I doubt any unbelievers get their knickers in a knot over something they don't believe in.
The only people who get their feelings hurt over anything are the overly sensitive and immature. It makes no difference what they believe.

Agree, although I see many Atheists and so forth expressing otherwise.

But let's imagine for a moment that God never revealed the concept and reality of a place called Hell. While it is true, even the thought of a place like Hell is not even enough to deter man from evil........a man from murder...a man from being a filthy vile animal....

God never revealed anything to anyone. Mans own imagination creates fantasies in the minds and hearts of mankind. Humans reveal these fantasies to each other through stories and various art forms.

Yeah yeah, I know all about your fantasy stuff, unfortunately for you it is your own opinion, what nobody can change.
No imaginary place can deter people from following their own instincts and feeding their own lusts.

I did say this, however I know is has some affect, I don't think anyone could blow that off.

Now let's imagine what the world might be like if the concept of Hell was not looming over our heads?..... ever thought about that? I'm willing to bet all that I have to suggest we WOULD be faaaaar worse off, okay it's my own opinion but think about it... What would a man do without fear of consequence?

There is always a fear of consequences when one has experienced unwanted consequences and understands them, but there is never a fear of consequences when people only perceive consequences as a fantasy. Hell is definitely just a concept and an imaginary threat. One needs to believe it exits to fear it. Plenty of people live in hell on earth and have done absolutely nothing to deserve such hardships, pain and suffering in their lives. Death to some of those people is the only way to escape the hell they live in. Many commit suicide to escape their hell on earth. The concept of being eternally tortured in a lake of fire is barbaric and very superstitious. You would think todays generations would have left all that behind by now and advanced mentally and emotionally but it seems the barbaric beliefs of our superstitious ancestors has a greater effect on human nature than people like to admit.

That is not really what's being discussed, which is why I mentioned that no one actually knows what Hell really is, rather than focusing on what Hell is, it's the mere concept of it or the idea of, does it serve a reasonable purpose? Is it something that Evil should be aware of?

Now another point I would like to make is that Hell within "Christian" teachings is very small in comparison with the rest of the picture, God's mercy, forgiveness, acceptance, redeeming nature, long suffering and patients that we might be willing to comply and learn. Every single individual that is alive is a redeemable soul, that means that the verses concerning Hell are for warning (and for good merit), nobody has to go there, and no non believer should reject Christianity based on the idea of Hell. You cannot mix evil with good, therefore there must be a separation (Heaven and Hell), God cannot allow evil within righteousness.

What exactly do people need redeeming from?

Simply and only their flesh, when that flesh is capable of committing evil when accountable. This just means that God can "make new" or "make righteous", that's what God does (the Biblical God).

Babies are born innocent not guilty of anything like Christianity teaches. No one is guilty of anything till they actually commit a crime by breaking a law. No new born has ever broken any laws.

I never said anything about babies, your pushing things on me that were never brought up. People are only accountable when they become accountable, and I don't think babies are guilty of anything, I have three of them lol. You must be focusing on the idea that Christianity teaches that all men fall short or that all men are born into sin, and to some extend I understand what is being said, but it needs to be kept within it's meaning, no need to drag babies into this conversation.

With what exactly do people need to comply... Certain religious rules and concepts of Christianity or some other religion or mere simple human kindness and compassion?

Yeah if a person complies with love, there's really nothing you can do wrong. For me, as a Christian I just try to comply what applies to me in scripture.

Adults teach the youth about consequences in reality. Actions cause reactions and they are often immediate or at least happen during ones earthly lifetime. No person needs to wait till after they die to be rewarded for their actions or suffer the consequences of wrong doings. To believe there is a reward or punishment after death is a fantasy. The only place people go after death is into the grave.

Thanks for your opinion.

The dead know nothing and feel nothing according to the bible. If that is true they cannot feel pain of suffering or even happiness. The dead simply rest in peace and are not even aware of anything. They end up in the same state as they were before they were born... Knowing nothing and having no awareness of their own existence.

Yes I agree it is unclear or it is at least open for discussion, which I already stated, I'm directing this towards the idea of Hell not what it actually is.


Having said that no one knows what Hell actually is in the first place unless we have first hand experience. I think God to be wise to have revealed this reality because it is only logical. Not the idea of "torturing souls", but the reality of good and evil and that God sees it for what it is and will judge it.

Plenty of people know what hell actually is. If they did not, they would not describe it as a place of pain, suffering and torture. The term "hell on earth" would not exist. The place of pain and suffering is something people experience within themselves. It is not a location outside of themselves.

This is would where I disagree, but it's simply our own beliefs. But yes, hell is on earth I never alluded otherwise. My own life has been one of great hardship and trials so I understand to some degree.

It is a state of heart, mind and conscience.

Yep, except in Christianity there is a place along with the conscience and mind but yes I understand what you believe about it.

You can live in hell on earth or heaven on earth.

Agree, done both.

It all depends on ones attitudes and motives and how one relates to their own circumstances. No soul can be tortured outside of a body. A spirit is intangible and cannot be physically harmed. You cannot hurt dead people.

The flesh can feel the flesh, the spirit can feel the spirit. While we are alive we can touch and feel our flesh, when we die our spirit is our "body" there will be senses no doubt.
matt.mcguire88
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5/16/2014 7:49:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

When it crosses the line into terrorism.

Understood. Do you think the God of the Bible should have revealed the concept of Hell?

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

Yep I see your point, but God is not an idiot lol, and that's most certainly not something I do at all which is why I was "confused" it was brought up. However, for the bad guys and the evil that is among us, the concept of Hell is something I'm grateful for that it at least gives something to consider no? I guarantee that in most cases all evil actions are premeditated, pre thought and even calculated and I'm sure the idea of Hell has it's impact in some form, not necessarily to spook people into Heaven but away from Hell.

You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made,

My friend I'm sad you feel attacked and because you do I have to consider what I did wrong and I apologize, forgive me that's not my intention.

I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.

Fair enough thank you.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
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5/16/2014 8:03:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

When it crosses the line into terrorism.

Telling someone about Hell can never really be an act of terrorism unless there's some sort of action in addition (physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, etc.). In and of itself it's merely a proclamation. If it's stated without any sort of manipulation, when you think about it could be more an act of terrorism not to tell someone about Hell. If the person is right, they may have spared someone's eternal life. And even if they are wrong, the intent was to spare someone's eternal life. That's hardly terrorism.

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made, I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.
Telling someone about Hell is a proclamation with the intent of doing the person ultimate good. The logical approach for an atheist to take would be gratitude. They don't have to believe that Hell exists to be grateful, because the intent of the Christian is for the ultimate good of those they warn. Of course many unbelievers tend to take offense instead of gratitude.
matt.mcguire88
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5/16/2014 8:16:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 7:49:38 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

When it crosses the line into terrorism.

Understood. Do you think the God of the Bible should have revealed the concept of Hell?

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

Yep I see your point, but God is not an idiot lol, and that's most certainly not something I do at all which is why I was "confused" it was brought up. However, for the bad guys and the evil that is among us, the concept of Hell is something I'm grateful for that it at least gives something to consider no? I guarantee that in most cases all evil actions are premeditated, pre thought and even calculated and I'm sure the idea of Hell has it's impact in some form, not necessarily to spook people into Heaven but away from Hell.

You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made,

My friend I'm sad you feel attacked and because you do I have to consider what I did wrong and I apologize, forgive me that's not my intention.

"Correction" I mean I feel bad that you might be offended by that statement, I don't want you to resent anything I said, that's not what I desire to do.

I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.

Fair enough thank you.
matt.mcguire88
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5/16/2014 8:37:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 8:03:43 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

When it crosses the line into terrorism.

Telling someone about Hell can never really be an act of terrorism unless there's some sort of action in addition (physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, etc.). In and of itself it's merely a proclamation. If it's stated without any sort of manipulation, when you think about it could be more an act of terrorism not to tell someone about Hell. If the person is right, they may have spared someone's eternal life. And even if they are wrong, the intent was to spare someone's eternal life. That's hardly terrorism.



Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made, I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.
Telling someone about Hell is a proclamation with the intent of doing the person ultimate good. The logical approach for an atheist to take would be gratitude. They don't have to believe that Hell exists to be grateful, because the intent of the Christian is for the ultimate good of those they warn. Of course many unbelievers tend to take offense instead of gratitude.

Great points, this is a very touchy subject because unfortunately for Christians, other christians are using the hell card to either "scare" atheists or dodge an argument, or at least they say "oh yeah, well you're going to HELL!" Which in turn has come back to bite them in the backside, because the entire objective is to bring awareness of Hell so that no one goes there. Using it as a weapon is disgraceful, using it as an insult is absolutely disgusting, some of it is our fault.
RoderickSpode
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5/16/2014 9:15:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 8:37:42 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 8:03:43 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.

Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?

When it crosses the line into terrorism.

Telling someone about Hell can never really be an act of terrorism unless there's some sort of action in addition (physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, etc.). In and of itself it's merely a proclamation. If it's stated without any sort of manipulation, when you think about it could be more an act of terrorism not to tell someone about Hell. If the person is right, they may have spared someone's eternal life. And even if they are wrong, the intent was to spare someone's eternal life. That's hardly terrorism.



Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.

I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?

Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.

You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made, I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.
Telling someone about Hell is a proclamation with the intent of doing the person ultimate good. The logical approach for an atheist to take would be gratitude. They don't have to believe that Hell exists to be grateful, because the intent of the Christian is for the ultimate good of those they warn. Of course many unbelievers tend to take offense instead of gratitude.

Great points, this is a very touchy subject because unfortunately for Christians, other christians are using the hell card to either "scare" atheists or dodge an argument, or at least they say "oh yeah, well you're going to HELL!" Which in turn has come back to bite them in the backside, because the entire objective is to bring awareness of Hell so that no one goes there. Using it as a weapon is disgraceful, using it as an insult is absolutely disgusting, some of it is our fault.
Yes, very true. Unfortunately the threat of Hell has been undoubtedly used to manipulate people. If someone doesn't do what someone else demands, someone doesn't give money periodically to a specific religious organization, etc. Then it does become abuse. I think sometimes it's used to scare/manipulate believers as well as atheists.
bulproof
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5/16/2014 9:20:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 8:37:42 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
.

Great points, this is a very touchy subject because unfortunately for Christians, other christians are using the hell card to either "scare" atheists or dodge an argument, or at least they say "oh yeah, well you're going to HELL!" Which in turn has come back to bite them in the backside, because the entire objective is to bring awareness of Hell so that no one goes there. Using it as a weapon is disgraceful, using it as an insult is absolutely disgusting, some of it is our fault.

And surely therein lies the problem. When in discussion with christians the final riposte always relies on the "you'll be sorry".

Disbelieve in my god and that is not good for you.

The boogeyman god.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
matt.mcguire88
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5/16/2014 10:16:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 9:20:13 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/16/2014 8:37:42 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
.

Great points, this is a very touchy subject because unfortunately for Christians, other christians are using the hell card to either "scare" atheists or dodge an argument, or at least they say "oh yeah, well you're going to HELL!" Which in turn has come back to bite them in the backside, because the entire objective is to bring awareness of Hell so that no one goes there. Using it as a weapon is disgraceful, using it as an insult is absolutely disgusting, some of it is our fault.

And surely therein lies the problem. When in discussion with christians the final riposte always relies on the "you'll be sorry".

Disbelieve in my god and that is not good for you.

The boogeyman god.

I know Bulproof, I feel ya on this one and I am sorry.
Brendan21
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5/16/2014 10:24:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I fail to see the point of some fear of eternal damnation for the sole motivator for people to do good through out their life. If the reason you are doing good things is only because of fear for your soul than clearly your missing the overall message of Jesus the Mad Philosopher. I like to abide to the moral code I was raised on (Catholic) because I would like to make heaven on earth for everyone, not allow suffering take place and just wait for some fantasy paradise that should be reserved for children when they can't sleep at night. Why can't we just do good for each other without some promise of a reward and a threat tied to the end of it. IMO people that abide by their code of morals without this promise is on a higher moral level then those eagerly seeking the reward at the end, with a hint of fear to keep them on the right path.
Ragnar
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5/16/2014 11:11:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 7:49:38 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.
Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?
When it crosses the line into terrorism.
Understood. Do you think the God of the Bible should have revealed the concept of Hell?

While I do not personally believe in God, I'll set that aside for the sake of argument...

While heaven is (likely) getting to spend eternity residing in God's presence, knowing joys of the soul beyond what we can predict or appreciate in this physical world. Then there's hell (I personally prefer Dante's hell, as it's more about being stuck with your peers doing the sin that you defined your life with), which if used too broadly (not Dante's) can imply that merely not being baptized puts you into the same room as Charles Manson and Adolf Hitler. More likely there's different layers, and other places in between (not entering heaven, but not being tortured in any way other than the denial of God's presence).

Yet as evidenced by us being able to carry on a thought provoking conversation, the concept of hell is at times positive. There is nothing inherently wrong with God revealing it.
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matt.mcguire88
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5/16/2014 11:15:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 10:24:27 AM, Brendan21 wrote:
"I fail to see the point of some fear of eternal damnation for the sole motivator for people to do good through out their life."

No, that is not what I'm saying at all, just like I told another poster however if that is the message that that you are getting from this I need to be clear that this is not my point. Maybe I communicated badly and that is my fault.

"If the reason you are doing good things is only because of fear for your soul than clearly your missing the overall message of Jesus the Mad Philosopher. "

That's a no brainer , and some how I must have been unclear.

" I like to abide to the moral code I was raised on (Catholic) because I would like to make heaven on earth for everyone, not allow suffering take place and just wait for some fantasy paradise that should be reserved for children when they can't sleep at night. Why can't we just do good for each other without some promise of a reward and a threat tied to the end of it. IMO people that abide by their code of morals without this promise is on a higher moral level then those eagerly seeking the reward at the end, with a hint of fear to keep them on the right path."

As Christians WE DO good for each other without rewards or threats, lol I don't do that and I don't know any that do...
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5/16/2014 11:21:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 11:11:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/16/2014 7:49:38 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.
Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?
When it crosses the line into terrorism.
Understood. Do you think the God of the Bible should have revealed the concept of Hell?

While I do not personally believe in God, I'll set that aside for the sake of argument...

While heaven is (likely) getting to spend eternity residing in God's presence, knowing joys of the soul beyond what we can predict or appreciate in this physical world. Then there's hell (I personally prefer Dante's hell, as it's more about being stuck with your peers doing the sin that you defined your life with), which if used too broadly (not Dante's) can imply that merely not being baptized puts you into the same room as Charles Manson and Adolf Hitler. More likely there's different layers, and other places in between (not entering heaven, but not being tortured in any way other than the denial of God's presence).

Interesting. Yeah I believe for the sake an overall view, the scripture tends to express one extreme or another, but yes I would have to believe that there are "in betweens", I trust God in a way I don't have to worry about what He decides, I'm for the most part at piece with it because it is something that is out of my hands.

Yet as evidenced by us being able to carry on a thought provoking conversation, the concept of hell is at times positive. There is nothing inherently wrong with God revealing it.
Brendan21
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5/16/2014 11:29:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 11:15:59 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 10:24:27 AM, Brendan21 wrote:
"I fail to see the point of some fear of eternal damnation for the sole motivator for people to do good through out their life."

No, that is not what I'm saying at all, just like I told another poster however if that is the message that that you are getting from this I need to be clear that this is not my point. Maybe I communicated badly and that is my fault.

"If the reason you are doing good things is only because of fear for your soul than clearly your missing the overall message of Jesus the Mad Philosopher. "

That's a no brainer , and some how I must have been unclear.

" I like to abide to the moral code I was raised on (Catholic) because I would like to make heaven on earth for everyone, not allow suffering take place and just wait for some fantasy paradise that should be reserved for children when they can't sleep at night. Why can't we just do good for each other without some promise of a reward and a threat tied to the end of it. IMO people that abide by their code of morals without this promise is on a higher moral level then those eagerly seeking the reward at the end, with a hint of fear to keep them on the right path."

As Christians WE DO good for each other without rewards or threats, lol I don't do that and I don't know any that do...

Your wording above makes it hard to understand but I think I get what your saying. My only point was that as a Christian(or other hell fearing religion) there is ALWAYS that threat of Hell, however loosely you believe in it or who for what reasons goes there, as well has the reward of heaven is ALWAYS there as well, theoretically urging the believer to do good at all times.
This all fine and dandy if people actually did abide by this, but that's not true as is evident in the world. So, the question remains, whats the point in the mystical threat and reward, when it's A) not working and B) when using logic and reason (no God involved) you can easily realize that what's good for the world is good for you, as well as the fact that we are all connected by living on the same planet.
I honestly feel like the self-righteousness narcissism that some believers hold give them the excuse to commit great evils, something that wouldn't happen if we were all philosophers at heart.
seeking-knowledge
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5/16/2014 11:32:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Point is, should a believer (of any religious creed) do good because they want to go to Heaven/because they fear Hell, or because they follow what God says, and want to to good to others just because they actually want to??

Personally, as a muslim, I do good because God enjoys good things and I want to please my Creator, but I would probably do good anyways.
Seeking for truth, and knowledge.
seeking-knowledge
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5/16/2014 11:34:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Better explaning: I think (Islamic) God tells us to become good persons, and a believer does so because he wants to please the Creator, but if he already was, he also gets a reward if he keeps on doing that to please God.
Seeking for truth, and knowledge.
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5/16/2014 11:38:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 8:03:43 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.
Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?
When it crosses the line into terrorism.
Telling someone about Hell can never really be an act of terrorism unless there's some sort of action in addition (physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, etc.). In and of itself it's merely a proclamation. If it's stated without any sort of manipulation, when you think about it could be more an act of terrorism not to tell someone about Hell. If the person is right, they may have spared someone's eternal life. And even if they are wrong, the intent was to spare someone's eternal life. That's hardly terrorism.

"can never ... Unless." Nice qualifier. However you are attempting to redefine terrorism (already in this conversation defined as "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion,") to not trying to terrify people, even if you feel it would be beneficial were they coerced with terror. I thought it was the bible that talked about the Tower Of Babel? If you think terrorism is sometimes a great thing, please state such outright, instead of attempting to refine it in direct conflict to it's already established meaning.

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.
I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?
Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.
You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made, I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.
Telling someone about Hell is a proclamation with the intent of doing the person ultimate good. The logical approach for an atheist to take would be gratitude. They don't have to believe that Hell exists to be grateful, because the intent of the Christian is for the ultimate good of those they warn. Of course many unbelievers tend to take offense instead of gratitude.

How grateful do you feel for Muslim attempts to convert you? Would you feel more grateful if they worked harder, by say going into the violent spectrum of terrorism? I mean it's "with the intent of doing [you] ultimate good."
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RoderickSpode
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5/16/2014 12:30:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 11:38:51 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/16/2014 8:03:43 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:24:25 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/15/2014 7:10:45 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:17:28 PM, Ragnar wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but the concept is not the problem, the way the concept is sometimes communicated is.
Excellent, so then the Bible concept is not something that is a problem? Just ignorant religious usage?
When it crosses the line into terrorism.
Telling someone about Hell can never really be an act of terrorism unless there's some sort of action in addition (physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, etc.). In and of itself it's merely a proclamation. If it's stated without any sort of manipulation, when you think about it could be more an act of terrorism not to tell someone about Hell. If the person is right, they may have spared someone's eternal life. And even if they are wrong, the intent was to spare someone's eternal life. That's hardly terrorism.

"can never ... Unless." Nice qualifier. However you are attempting to redefine terrorism (already in this conversation defined as "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion,") to not trying to terrify people, even if you feel it would be beneficial were they coerced with terror. I thought it was the bible that talked about the Tower Of Babel? If you think terrorism is sometimes a great thing, please state such outright, instead of attempting to refine it in direct conflict to it's already established meaning.

I'll give an example:

1. You're in a conversation with a Christian, and he tells you about his belief in Heaven and Hell, and what one must do to go to Heaven/avoid Hell. You eventually walk away from him, and proceed to go about your business. Was the Christian proclaiming his belief an act of terrorism. I don't think so. Do you?

2. You're in the same conversation with the same Christian telling you about his belief. You eventually walk away from him. However....he follows you. You ask him to leave, and he keeps threatening you with Hell fire. You threaten him with the law. However, he stalked you and pops up at your door, and continues to threaten you with Hell fire. This time you call the police on him. Does his action resemble that of a terrorist type act? I would say yes! If not actual terrorism, close enough to it. He's certainly violating the law.

Do you see a difference between the 2 scenarios?

Regarding heaven: (IMO) no Christian should do the right thing, to bribe their way into heaven; that would undermine the value of their good works.
I don't understand where you get this from??? How would I BRIBE my way into heaven and what does this have to do with what I said here?
Heaven and hell are deeply related topics. To use an analogy, if you treat a girl right but only do so in hopes of bedding her, you are not really a good person to her. If you refrain from committing evil actions only because you think you will get caught and punished, you are also not a good person. An actual good person does the right thing because of altruism, not in hope of reward or to avoid punishment.
You stated "the concept of Hell has all the unbelievers undies in a bunch, but why?" While I resent the Ad Hominem attacks you've made, I have provided one answer for why so many people may dislike the concept of hell, which in turn likely contributes to the rejection which seemed to have you confused.
Telling someone about Hell is a proclamation with the intent of doing the person ultimate good. The logical approach for an atheist to take would be gratitude. They don't have to believe that Hell exists to be grateful, because the intent of the Christian is for the ultimate good of those they warn. Of course many unbelievers tend to take offense instead of gratitude.

How grateful do you feel for Muslim attempts to convert you? Would you feel more grateful if they worked harder, by say going into the violent spectrum of terrorism? I mean it's "with the intent of doing [you] ultimate good."

I would be grateful if they told me their belief....yes. I welcome it. Not if they take it into a violent spectrum....no.
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5/16/2014 12:50:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 11:29:14 AM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 11:15:59 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 10:24:27 AM, Brendan21 wrote:
"I fail to see the point of some fear of eternal damnation for the sole motivator for people to do good through out their life."

No, that is not what I'm saying at all, just like I told another poster however if that is the message that that you are getting from this I need to be clear that this is not my point. Maybe I communicated badly and that is my fault.

"If the reason you are doing good things is only because of fear for your soul than clearly your missing the overall message of Jesus the Mad Philosopher. "

That's a no brainer , and some how I must have been unclear.

" I like to abide to the moral code I was raised on (Catholic) because I would like to make heaven on earth for everyone, not allow suffering take place and just wait for some fantasy paradise that should be reserved for children when they can't sleep at night. Why can't we just do good for each other without some promise of a reward and a threat tied to the end of it. IMO people that abide by their code of morals without this promise is on a higher moral level then those eagerly seeking the reward at the end, with a hint of fear to keep them on the right path."

As Christians WE DO good for each other without rewards or threats, lol I don't do that and I don't know any that do...

Your wording above makes it hard to understand but I think I get what your saying. My only point was that as a Christian(or other hell fearing religion) there is ALWAYS that threat of Hell, however loosely you believe in it or who for what reasons goes there, as well has the reward of heaven is ALWAYS there as well, theoretically urging the believer to do good at all times.
This all fine and dandy if people actually did abide by this, but that's not true as is evident in the world. So, the question remains, whats the point in the mystical threat and reward, when it's A) not working and B) when using logic and reason (no God involved) you can easily realize that what's good for the world is good for you, as well as the fact that we are all connected by living on the same planet.
I honestly feel like the self-righteousness narcissism that some believers hold give them the excuse to commit great evils, something that wouldn't happen if we were all philosophers at heart.

Yep and I see where I went wrong.

This is kinda where I'm at lol...
1. We know evil exists in the world, or at least it's among us.

2. Which I already stated, "even the knowledge of Hell is not enough to deter man from evil", so we know the idea of Hell itself has failed to abolish evil and or sin, this is obvious.

3. Which basically leaves me with a hypothetical question..... has the knowledge of Hell done anything at all? This is something we may never know because all we see is what is being done, not restrained...And has it served a worthy purpose? Is it really that bad of a concept in general and should people be offended by it or reject Christianity over it?
12_13
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5/16/2014 1:51:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/15/2014 6:02:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Having said that no one knows what Hell actually is in the first place unless we have first hand experience. I think God to be wise to have revealed this reality because it is only logical. Not the idea of "torturing souls", but the reality of good and evil and that God sees it for what it is and will judge it.

I think all should know better what the Bible tells about hell. According to the Bible hell is second death, where body and soul is destroyed.

I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
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5/16/2014 2:11:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 1:51:51 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:02:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Having said that no one knows what Hell actually is in the first place unless we have first hand experience. I think God to be wise to have revealed this reality because it is only logical. Not the idea of "torturing souls", but the reality of good and evil and that God sees it for what it is and will judge it.

I think all should know better what the Bible tells about hell. According to the Bible hell is second death, where body and soul is destroyed.

I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Yeah, I'm aware of the scriptures and this makes a good point. However For the sake of arguing what every religious person thinks Hell is, and what the scriptures mean I'm leaning more towards God revealing the concept of Hell in general, so I'm leaving my personal opinion out of it in general. I read a lot, and people really seem bothered by this subject, and so I am interested.
Skyangel
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5/16/2014 6:20:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 7:35:31 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/15/2014 8:11:32 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/15/2014 6:02:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Hell is a place of fire and brimstone where the skin melts off your face....... ONLY kidding.

Hell is a state of mind and conscience.... Not kidding.

I agree. Excuse my humor in this post, not meant to be disrespectful.

I don't consider your humor as disrespectful but I would like to ask you if you take the concept of the the lake of fire literally or not? If not, please explain how you imagine hell. You seem to agree it is a state of mind but further down in this conversation you seem to imply it is a place people go after death. I said "The place of pain and suffering is something people experience within themselves. It is not a location outside of themselves"
You disagreed with that so I am left presuming that you do think it is a location outside of people. Maybe you would like to clarify exactly what you think it is? Do you take the concept of hell being a lake of fire literally or not? If so why?

Now let's imagine what the world might be like if the concept of Hell was not looming over our heads?..... ever thought about that? I'm willing to bet all that I have to suggest we WOULD be faaaaar worse off, okay it's my own opinion but think about it... What would a man do without fear of consequence?

There is always a fear of consequences when one has experienced unwanted consequences and understands them, but there is never a fear of consequences when people only perceive consequences as a fantasy. Hell is definitely just a concept and an imaginary threat. One needs to believe it exits to fear it. Plenty of people live in hell on earth and have done absolutely nothing to deserve such hardships, pain and suffering in their lives. Death to some of those people is the only way to escape the hell they live in. Many commit suicide to escape their hell on earth. The concept of being eternally tortured in a lake of fire is barbaric and very superstitious. You would think todays generations would have left all that behind by now and advanced mentally and emotionally but it seems the barbaric beliefs of our superstitious ancestors has a greater effect on human nature than people like to admit.

That is not really what's being discussed, which is why I mentioned that no one actually knows what Hell really is, rather than focusing on what Hell is, it's the mere concept of it or the idea of, does it serve a reasonable purpose? Is it something that Evil should be aware of?

Any concept of hell serves it purpose to people who believe the concept. It serves no purpose except for entertainment to those who don't believe it.
Evil is not aware of anything. All people whether good or bad ought to be aware that all actions have consequences. Smart people learn to avoid unwanted consequences.

With what exactly do people need to comply... Certain religious rules and concepts of Christianity or some other religion or mere simple human kindness and compassion?

Yeah if a person complies with love, there's really nothing you can do wrong. For me, as a Christian I just try to comply what applies to me in scripture.

You just said if a person complies with love they can do nothing wrong, therefore if an unbeliever in God lives a life which is loving and kind toward their fellow man and basically lives in love all their lives do they still go to hell or not in your opinion? If so why?

The dead know nothing and feel nothing according to the bible. If that is true they cannot feel pain of suffering or even happiness. The dead simply rest in peace and are not even aware of anything. They end up in the same state as they were before they were born... Knowing nothing and having no awareness of their own existence.

Yes I agree it is unclear or it is at least open for discussion, which I already stated, I'm directing this towards the idea of Hell not what it actually is.

To have an idea or concept work you need to have a definition of that concept and understand what it is. If you don't know what it is and cannot define the idea, you have no concept. To have any idea of hell you need to define it and understand the meaning of it. That is the same as knowing what it is.

Plenty of people know what hell actually is. If they did not, they would not describe it as a place of pain, suffering and torture. The term "hell on earth" would not exist. The place of pain and suffering is something people experience within themselves. It is not a location outside of themselves.

This is would where I disagree, but it's simply our own beliefs. But yes, hell is on earth I never alluded otherwise. My own life has been one of great hardship and trials so I understand to some degree.

What exactly are you disagreeing with here? You seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

It is a state of heart, mind and conscience.

Yep, except in Christianity there is a place along with the conscience and mind but yes I understand what you believe about it.

Christianity seems to teach that hell is a place or location but I think too many Christians misinterpret that as a location outside of themselves instead of an inner place within themselves. The place of peace is only found within and the place of turmoil is also only found within. If it was not, no man could find inner peace in this life but would have to wait till after death before they even found that place which is also called heaven. It is all within you. The kingdom of God is within you and so is hell. The Truth (Jesus) saves people from the inner turmoil (Hell) and brings them into perfect peace ( Heaven ) by taking away the inner conflict. No person needs to wait till after they die to experience it. Forgiveness is eternal and anyone can attain it through putting right whatever caused their inner turmoil in the first place.

It all depends on ones attitudes and motives and how one relates to their own circumstances. No soul can be tortured outside of a body. A spirit is intangible and cannot be physically harmed. You cannot hurt dead people.

The flesh can feel the flesh, the spirit can feel the spirit. While we are alive we can touch and feel our flesh, when we die our spirit is our "body" there will be senses no doubt.

Thanks for your opinions but they are questionable. You cannot know that you will have any senses after death. That is something you might find out after you die and you might not. The fact is that if the scripture is true ( Ecc 9:5 ) and the dead know nothing, you won't even know if you are dead or alive.
The dead have flesh and they do not feel their flesh so your statement "The flesh can feel the feel the flesh is a false statement or it only applies to living people not to dead people. It is really the spirit which feels the flesh not the flesh which feels the flesh. If the flesh could feel the flesh, dead flesh would still feel itself. The life within you which is your spirit is what causes you to feel anything at all. That spirit came from the air and returns to the air after your body dies.
No one goes to a place called hell after they die.
The word Hell in Hebrew is "Sheowl" and it means the grave, the pit. It refers to nothing but the burial place.
The word Hell in Greek is "Geenna" That is also referring to a burial place. Geenna was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. It is a place of physical cremation.
Skyangel
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5/16/2014 6:32:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 8:37:42 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 8:03:43 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

Telling someone about Hell is a proclamation with the intent of doing the person ultimate good. The logical approach for an atheist to take would be gratitude. They don't have to believe that Hell exists to be grateful, because the intent of the Christian is for the ultimate good of those they warn. Of course many unbelievers tend to take offense instead of gratitude.

Great points, this is a very touchy subject because unfortunately for Christians, other christians are using the hell card to either "scare" atheists or dodge an argument, or at least they say "oh yeah, well you're going to HELL!" Which in turn has come back to bite them in the backside, because the entire objective is to bring awareness of Hell so that no one goes there. Using it as a weapon is disgraceful, using it as an insult is absolutely disgusting, some of it is our fault.

Every living person is aware that all will one day end up in the grave or be cremated. Since the Greek and Hebrew words for hell refer to the grave, in reality ALL are going to end up there regardless of whether they are Christians or not. Having an awareness of hell, death or the grave does not guarantee that you will not end up there. There is no way to stop people from dying and ending up in a grave. Death is part of life.
Any spiritual hell is an inner thing which people experience while they are alive not after they die.
The Truth ( Jesus) is the only way out of it. Tell the truth and you will not end up in trouble or inner turmoil conflict and guilt for telling lies.
Skyangel
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5/16/2014 6:53:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 11:34:43 AM, seeking-knowledge wrote:
Better explaning: I think (Islamic) God tells us to become good persons, and a believer does so because he wants to please the Creator, but if he already was, he also gets a reward if he keeps on doing that to please God.

Human nature tells humans to be good to each other. Most do it because they want to make other people happy which in turn makes them happy. No person needs to believe in or please any supernatural being in the sky in order to be a good person who lives in an attitude of loving and helping and being kind to his fellow man. Many Atheists and Agnostics are very kind helpful moral people who live by the standard of love and kindness without any God demanding they go through religious rituals daily. They are free from the bondage of religion.
The bible teaches that he who lives in love lives in God and God lives in him for God is Love. No person needs to believe in a supernatural person in the sky to live in Love.
The reality is that those who live in Love live in heaven on earth and those who live in an attitude of hate or "holier than thou" are already living in hell and bondage. People ought not be worried about going to hell. They should be concentrating on how to get out of the hell they are already in.