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Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History

Tyler5362
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5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.
PureX
Posts: 1,522
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5/17/2014 11:11:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hmmm " I'm wondering how exactly a "misstep" in history could even occur. Is there some invisible pre-existing outline for history that the reality of human experience could somehow have veered away from? And even if there were, how exactly would we find and decipher this outline?

Or, are you sitting there in your chair and saying to yourself; "human history, according to me, should have gone differently than it has, in the following ways ""? And if that's what you're doing, doesn't that strike you as a very strange thing to do? I mean, you'd be casting yourself in an almost God-like position, standing in judgment of all human history, and of the thoughts and actions of billions of other human beings.

I'm just sayin' ...
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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5/17/2014 1:15:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

Wow! Are we supposed to pretend that you are educated.

Lets digest this shall we:

The MASSIVE adjustment and trial of humanity has been about ... sexuality. Let pretend that attitudes toward sex and sexuality haven't changed radically since the advent of birth control and the sexual revolution. Human moors about sex have been the underpinning of human tragedy and strife ... that whole WWII thingy was totally about homosexual rights.

Lets also be blind to history, as in say, places like Spain (that's right boys and girls - the same place as the Inquisition!) homosexuality has been openly tolerated for large portions of Spanish history.

Lets also pretend that in China it was not only tolerated, but eventually became part of a rapacious practice of over lords, who would use sex as a means to diminish their inferiors ... leading Moa, right, and atheist, to place it atop his list of values that had corrupted Chinese values and lead to its colonization by European powers.

Nah, intolerance of homosexuality is OBVIOUSLY a religious thing and there is no reason to mention that fornication and having sex with turtles ALSO happens to violate religious commandments.

But heh, the forward looking atheist here thinks we should be having ex with turtles and other animals because that is OBVIOUSLY a sexual moral trait that was imposed on us by a heathen and evil religion and we must remove our shackles brothers!

I read things like the OP, and it reads like someone just joined a cult.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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5/18/2014 12:27:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 1:15:46 PM, neutral wrote:

Nah, intolerance of homosexuality is OBVIOUSLY a religious thing and there is no reason to mention that fornication and having sex with turtles ALSO happens to violate religious commandments.

What gives religious commandments any authority?

But heh, the forward looking atheist here thinks we should be having ex with turtles and other animals because that is OBVIOUSLY a sexual moral trait..

Strawman much? Please show me anything in the opening statement which suggested that bestiality is an appropriate conduct.

I read things like the OP, and it reads like someone just joined a cult.

What part of it appears to be cult-like in your opinion?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Oromagi
Posts: 857
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5/18/2014 1:42:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...
we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

I won't make a case for any religion and would prefer that folks did a better job of separating faith from knowledge. Nevertheless, I think your perspective on religion as a human adaptation or coping mechanism is overly pessimistic.

Think on this: the first evidence of ceremonial burial dates back 225,000 years. That's after we came up with fire and spears but long before we figured out dogs or farming or houses. Even proto-humans like Neanderthal had religion.

Humans developed religion before we developed art. In fact, archeologists tend to define all art and science as children of the religious impulse.

Consider: religion is not as old as murder but older than war. Religion comes before humans understand that there are other humans across the river so we have religion before we have the concept of race or foreign culture. We have religion before we have government or written words or boats or buildings.

So I can't get on board with the tragic misstep theory. If humans are indeed threatened by humanity I think we have to focus first on some less intrinsic aspect of humanity. If science emerges from our need to define the universe then we can't have science without religion. If music and theater emerge from our need to relate the universe then we can't have art without religion. Man without religion is probably not man any longer.
neutral
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5/18/2014 2:51:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 12:27:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
s.

What gives religious commandments any authority?

Your ability to yes them.

You think lying is good? So be it. Go ahead an try it, and when you are caught? Awe shucks.

Think promiscuity is good? Even in marriage? Give it a try. The couples engaged in it rave about it after all!

Yet here is how it usually ends:

http://www.psychologytoday.com...

The politics of Rome in your bedroom, eh? Sex was uncontrollable, and what we need for a healthy lifestyle? Controlling ones appetites, working on a relationship, these are ... inferior are they?

Homosexuality. Why do you think God banned this?

What was ancient Israel? A congregation of 12 tribes. In a tribe, how is property, dynasty, etc. passed along? Right, through male descendants. So what happens when male descendant are gay? Guess what they cannot do? Continue the line of descendants. That pretty much immediately invited attacks from tribes or enemies. Not exactly a best practice is it?

Spain and China, as I sated earlier, openly tolerated the practice. It ended. Why? Because when it comes to politics, to be engaged in sexual perfidy rather than matters of state, gives an opponent an opportunity - much as the harem's gave rebels a legitimate claim to expound upon. Why waste time with a boy when matters of state must be met? Particularly in eras when dynasty requires marriage and descendants. Its a waste. Not a best practice, and engaging in it, however much you otherwise honorable, gives your political opponents a opening against you. And in the knife fight of politics, you think someone will not use this against you?

Lets also be honest, homosexuality is a form of hyper sexuality. We have thrust the monogamous version into the public but that is not the norm is it? Venture into any gay bar and you will see the reality - wanton, open sexuality on display.

http://humbumbershoot.wordpress.com...

Even the most conservative estimates find that the top percentile of homosexual men are rapidly homosexual.

There are higher instances of open marriages in the homosexual community.

http://www.nytimes.com...

And the result?

http://www.nytimes.com...

So if you are God, would you recommend gay relationships as a best practice? And is this, obviously emotional, really the thing that has defined and driven human history?

Are we beings, as God claims, that are rational, disciplined, and able to control our baser desires like anger? Jealously? Sexual impulses? Or are we craven individuals driven by our desires? Our addictions?

Don't you think, even as we tolerate gay marriage, that we nevertheless have a duty to speak about sex in the reality of being able to control it? For most of human history, man has done just that and thrived. And when not? Sodom and Gommorrah offer examples: is that REALLY what you want to live?

Is selfishness the new norm? Or is their value is selflessness? Of controlling your desire to serve others?

I tell you what, I love my wife and routinely subordinate my desires to hers. She does the same in reverse, and what happens is? Wonderful.

God was not wrong was he? And even in the homosexual community, that remains advice that is a best practice, and stands in stark contrast to the Sodomy that is rampant in the community.



Strawman much? Please show me anything in the opening statement which suggested that bestiality is an appropriate conduct.

So you admit that religious positions DO have merit. You simply picked ONE of many and have decided that religion is scourge? Yet when confronted with the rest? Suddenly religion isn't so bad and you are being straw manned?

I mean, should you have sex with your daughter? Your mother? Your sister? Animals?

Stupid religion, eh?


What part of it appears to be cult-like in your opinion?

Religion has been around for how long? Right, the ENTIRE period of human history. Somehow we have developed. Yet brainwashed dolts suddenly find that something that has been around forever is actually been undermining the very thing that it helped create.

You are aware that, for several hundred years, there has been no major religious war in the West? That this arose, itself from a religious war - the 30 Years War - between Protestant Nations and Catholic Ones, that sewed such destruction that religious people, centuries ago, decided it was stupid. So they came up with other means to address their issues ... and in doing so laid the foundation of the modern Nation State.

400 years later, some cult member walks out and says that process is a dire threat? The lack of education or even basic skepticism to ask, "Wait a minute, I am alive DESPITE being surrounded by nefarious, evil, goodfornothing religious people! What gives?," is telling.

Its a Utopian concept, wherein a simplest solution will lead to complex problems being solved. Eliminate religion ... ALL problems solved.

Politics will go away.

Ethnicity will go away.

Competition for resources will go away..

Nationalism will go away.

Competing ideologies will go away. Fascism vs. Communism .. gone?

Strong dominating the weak will go away.

Imperialism will go away.

Racism with go away.

Etc Etc. Etc.

To ignore that in favor of, "No religion ... No problems!" ... Yeah, that is a cultish mentality if ever there was one.

You know, if you drink the cool aide, there will indeed be no more religion for you.
Beastt
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5/18/2014 6:38:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 2:51:17 AM, neutral wrote:
Your ability to yes them. [Gives religious commandments authority]

I'm not even sure what that means. My ability to "yes" them? Did you perhaps mean "test"? I have tested them. They tend to fail as often as not.

You think lying is good? So be it. Go ahead an try it, and when you are caught? Awe shucks.

Your wife comes in depressed and says she looks old. Perhaps you've been noticing a distinct maturity is starting to over-shadow her appearance. What do you say?

You hear that someone is pregnant and expecting and they're visibly excited but you feel it's a bad time for them to be starting a family. How honest are you going to be? Certainly there are many times when one should strive to be as honest as possible. There are other times when it's not so productive. Do I think theists are short-sighted and of limited intellect? Do you want the honest answer to that question? This is one of the problems with religion; it tries to apply the same rules as blanket values. Life isn't that simple.

Do yourself a favor; come Monday morning, make an attempt to take note of each time you're dishonest with family, co-workers, authority figures, etc. You'll find that you do it many times per hour. And if you didn't, you'd have no friends, no family, no job and be a complete social outcast. There are times when it's of major importance to be completely open and honest. There are other times when it's equally important to be dishonest for the sake of social harmony. Look how angry Christians get when atheists are bluntly honest with them? Most forums have a huge list of rules against such honesty.

Think promiscuity is good? Even in marriage? Give it a try. The couples engaged in it rave about it after all!

Promiscuity in marriage is (or should be) about loyalty to your partner. Religion makes itself the focus of behaviors and this may be one of the reasons that promiscuity in marriage is so common. When you forget that the person you love more than any in the world, is the victim, and begin to believe that the real victim is some intangible entity outside of physical existence, it makes it just as easy to believe that it's just a physical thing, and lacks the meaning it has with your spouse. Atheists are less inclined to promote social disharmony because we're responsible for ourselves. (Greg Paul Study)

Controlling ones appetites, working on a relationship, these are ... inferior are they?

I've said no such thing. You're missing the point entirely. Religious commandments aren't about controlling yourself. They're about letting others control you, under the guise of some overwhelming, yet unevidenced supreme being. People tend to be more responsible when they're allowed the opportunity to be responsible for themselves. As long as they're only appeasing an over-bearing parent, misbehavior is right around the corner. And that's what religion does - it provides an imaginary, over-bearing parent, who even sits in observance in your marital bedroom.

Homosexuality. Why do you think God banned this?

Here's the better question; what makes you think God had anything to say about it? This is something Christians, Muslims and others frequently forget; the one entity not present in any of their supposed messages from a supreme entity, is that very same supreme entity. God didn't write any of the Bible. Jesus didn't write any of the Bible. No one who even knew Jesus wrote any of the Bible. And the writings it contains were selected in the 4th century, by men serving only to benefit their own wants, desires, beliefs and agendas. God has nothing to do with any of it.

But as for whether or not homosexuality is banned in nature, it most certainly is not. If God is supposed to be in control, then he most certainly promotes homosexuality as it exists in nearly every sexual species.

Controlling ones appetites, working on a relationship, these are ... inferior are they?

You're welcome to either stop attempting to put words in my mouth, or to show me where I stated that observing the opposite of religious commandments would be preferable. You decide which of those things you feel most capable of doing.

So what happens when male descendant are gay?

So, you're suggesting that rampant socialism is preferable to allowing people their civil rights? You seem to be forgetting that telling someone they're not allowed to be gay is like telling them they're not allowed to be 5'10", not allowed to be dark skinned, or not allowed to have brown eyes. And the objections you raised was a human tradition which discriminates against people on the basis of their natural sexual orientation.

So if you are God, would you recommend gay relationships as a best practice? And is this, obviously emotional, really the thing that has defined and driven human history?

If I were God and I didn't want homosexuality to exist, I wouldn't design sexuality to allow for it. Your God who is supposed to be in control, isn't. People are. It wasn't God who prohibited it. It was humans. Before you try to claim anything in the Bible came from God, you need to be able to support that claim. And the history/origin of the Bible, eliminates any such possibility.

Are we beings, as God claims, that are rational, disciplined, and able to control our baser desires like anger? Jealously? Sexual impulses?

Firstly, where has God has ever claimed any such thing? Secondly, according to the Bible, God doesn't control his anger, jealousy, etc. And he's supposed to be perfect.

Don't you think, even as we tolerate gay marriage, that we nevertheless have a duty to speak about sex in the reality of being able to control it?

Why do you think it's your business to control other people's consensual sexual appetites?

Sodom and Gommorrah offer examples: is that REALLY what you want to live?

Sodom and Gommorrah is fiction. It's easy to control outcomes when you're just writing stories.

I tell you what, I love my wife and routinely subordinate my desires to hers. She does the same in reverse, and what happens is? Wonderful.
And this can't happen between homosexual partners? Why not?

God was not wrong was he?
Again, show me that God had anything to do with the Bible. You're operating completely upon a blatantly false premise.

And even in the homosexual community, that remains advice that is a best practice, and stands in stark contrast to the Sodomy that is rampant in the community.

Sorry, but sodomy exists in the heterosexual community as well. You're looking at things which exist throughout society, and attempting to blame it all on homosexuality. And you're ignoring the impropriety of simply telling people they are not allowed to be who and what they are. And you fail to recognize that it is people doing this and leveling these restrictions, not God.

Strawman much? Please show me anything in the opening statement which suggested that bestiality is an appropriate conduct.
So you admit that religious positions DO have merit.

Religion comes from people. And people sometimes grasp a partial understanding of what promotes societal harmony. Other times they simply exert their own biases under the facade of being best for society. You've completely skipped over considering whether any of these standards hold the authority they claim.

You simply picked ONE of many and have decided that religion is scourge? Yet when confronted with the rest? Suddenly religion isn't so bad and you are being straw manned?

You presented a straw man in suggesting that I was promoting bestiality, when in fact, I said nothing even remotely related to such context. You do understand that homosexuality and bestiality are two different things, do you not?

And for what it's worth, if you think God had anything to do with the Bible, why did God want Adam to engage in bestiality (Genesi
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Envisage
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5/18/2014 6:49:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

Religion and superstition seems inevitable considering how our brains evolved and the behavioral tendencies we developed in order to survive. So I think the OP is somewhat misplaced. Religion is the price we have to pay for us to be here as we are today.

If given the choice I wouldn't have let the universe run such a course, but I'm by no means sad that it did.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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5/18/2014 7:17:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 2:51:17 AM, neutral wrote:
Religion has been around for how long? Right, the ENTIRE period of human history.

As has atheism, homosexuality, disease, ignorance, war, hatred, infidelity, etc. What point were you hoping to present?

I mean, should you have sex with your daughter? Your mother? Your sister? Animals?
And you're filing this under homosexuality? It seems the only objection you've managed is that it doesn't allow for offspring to inherit your property. So you keep tossing incest (promoted in the Bible), and bestiality (promoted in the Bible), as though those practices fall under the title of "homosexuality". You do know what homosexuality is, don't you?

Stupid religion, eh?
Quite, but more accurately, those adhering to it. (Just being honest.)

Yet brainwashed dolts suddenly find that something that has been around forever is actually been undermining the very thing that it helped create.
One would be justified in suggesting it has been the "brainwashed dolts" who have prevented the wide-spread recognition that religion is a huge deficit to humanity, rather than the benefit it proclaims itself to be. It's the singular primary motivation for war, the primary justification for prejudice and bigotry, the chief reason people have for embracing their ignorance and rejecting knowledge and intellect. Just because something has been around for a long time, doesn't mean it's beneficial. I direct you again to; natural disasters, disease, ignorance, war, hatred, infidelity, etc. Those have been around throughout human history as well. Does that mean we should seek to preserve and promote them?

You are aware that, for several hundred years, there has been no major religious war in the West?
Are you aware that there has scarcely been a time in human history when there weren't multiple wars in some part of the world, and that the majority of those wars comprise a religious motivation?

But since you've mentions the west, have you noticed that the west is continually involving itself in the wars in the East? And have you noticed that many of these wars have an underlying religious motivation? In fact, the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were only approved by the American populace after a dishonest president assured the country that he "listens to God". And with that, many religious Americans forgot about the lack of evidence, ignored the fact that the targeted countries had nothing to do with the acts of terror to which America was victim, and grouped behind a dishonest public servant, in promoting an illegal war, on religious motivation, which is still being fought, and has lead to the death of well over 100,000 people. It is easy to suggest that those lives might have been spared had people remained rational, rather than falling to the prompting of religious references.

"Wait a minute, I am alive DESPITE being surrounded by nefarious, evil, goodfornothing religious people! What gives?"
Again, we're also surrounded by disease, natural disasters, ignorance, poverty, etc. Perhaps you should spend a few moments focusing on all of the people who haven't survived religion, rather than ignoring them.

Eliminate religion ... ALL problems solved.
Ridiculous exaggerations, offered in place of a point of debate is often indicative of a lack of any valid point to debate. I never said that the elimination of religion would solve all of the world's problems. But it would likely eliminate, and/or reduce a great many of them.

You know, if you drink the cool aide, there will indeed be no more religion for you.
There was also no more life for those who drank the "Kool Aid", and all of them were religious. The problem here; and the main point of my asking you about your reference to cults is that you don't seem to realize that the only difference between a "cult" and a "religion" is the number of members and its longevity. Aside from that, they're both a matter of subscribing to beliefs devoid of evidence, which are most often somewhat devoid of reason, rationality and a degree of intellect as well.

Your "cult" is no better than another man's "religion". So be aware that when you reference "cults", you're talking about the same kinds of beliefs you hold, and the very types of beliefs atheists tend to reject.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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5/18/2014 7:54:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 7:17:38 AM, Beastt wrote:


As has atheism, homosexuality, disease, ignorance, war, hatred, infidelity, etc. What point were you hoping to present?

So, is this a sly and completely lacking in humbleness admission that perhaps religion is the THE thing that has caused EVERY problem in the world?

Are you unaware of the OP?



And you're filing this under homosexuality? It seems the only objection you've managed is that it doesn't allow for offspring to inherit your property. So you keep tossing incest (promoted in the Bible), and bestiality (promoted in the Bible), as though those practices fall under the title of "homosexuality". You do know what homosexuality is, don't you?

Oh, those are promoted in the Bible? Have you ever read the Bible?

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Go must be using some form of reverse psychology here ... do NOT do these things, actually means ... ahem, go ahead and do them anyway. Are you one of those guys that thinks a woman saying no actually means yes?

Are you actually serious in your ignorance? Or just mean? DO you really think Christians promote beastiality? Are you insane? Or just so ignorant that its essentially the same thing?

Right, I'll bet that offended you, but running around saying, "Your religion PROMOTES beastiality you sickos," is just fine.

Ration atheism? This is not.

Quite, but more accurately, those adhering to it. (Just being honest.)

Right, the vast majority of religious people not raping animals and actually defying God.

What fabulous faith choice your atheism is that would lead you to think that way.



One would be justified in suggesting it has been the "brainwashed dolts" who have prevented the wide-spread recognition that religion is a huge deficit to humanity,

Well, there is the claim ... its support with anything other than propaganda? Right, as absent as your response to the reality of homosexuality. You are right because ... you are right.

Driven by any history? Not in the slightest.

So tell me atheist, why is there a WAR in Syria? They are ALL Muslims correct? And the Koran is pretty clear that Muslims should not kill Muslims correct? Yet there they are? Suna Shia you say? Well, then how do the Kurds fit into this? Why are the Alawites, a tribe, listed as a instigator and defender of the state sponsored military? Why would Iran and Russia be supporting this side? Are you telling me that RUSSIA, having fought resolutely against Muslim extremists in Chechnya is now in favor of Islamic regimes?

Do you see what you bigoted views of religion, totally lacking is observation support or study, do?

Of course not, that would require honesty. And what we are really after here is a sense of superiority, correct?

Thus I predict that Syria and its complexities will be mooted like any other actual discussion with ... any atheist these days. Its righteous anger we need instead.

Are you aware that there has scarcely been a time in human history when there weren't multiple wars in some part of the world, and that the majority of those wars comprise a religious motivation?

Are they? Well, lets take a look.

The Taliban. Umm ... ALL the tribes in Afghanistan are Muslim. The Taliban are mostly Pashtu, who believe they are destined to rule the rule Afghanistan. A kind of manifest destiny Afghan style. So could you explain how religion is driving the issue?

India, a MOASIST insurgency of Naxalites.

Nepal, same thing, slowly healing thanks to the implosion of the former feudal system.

Unighar insurgency in China. Is that religious? They trying to convert China to Islam, or are they a reaction to the flood of Han Chinese into their ancestral homeland and being largely locked out of the resulting political/economic realities?

North Korea? Religious? Really?

Mexican drug war? Religious?

Columbian drug war? Religious?

Lybia? Religious, or the inevitable result of being lead by a crazy, abusive dig bat?

Syria, already covered that.

Iraq? Suna Shia again right? Only its a competition for tribes and blocks for power, with, interestingy enough Iran and Saudi Arabia using proxies. What do you think would happen if these two regional powers just stopped interfering? And the Persian Aran competition? Yeah, it existed even before Islam.

Turkey's war again the Kurds?

Ukraine about religion?

Chechnyan nationalism about religion?

Central African Republic? Arguably religious, but there are those tribe thingy again.

Somalia? all sides are Muslims.

Nigeria? Boko Harem all Islam? And what was the last insurgency in Nigeria? From the same region? Only NOW its all about religion right?

South Sudan? Ethnic right?

Congo? Right Ethnic again.

The stuff between China and Vietnam about religion? Or resources?

So, by any stretch of the objective imagination, you are just flat our wrong.


But since you've mentions the west, have you noticed that the west is continually involving itself in the wars in the East?

So the last 12 years is our entire history is it?

Again, we're also surrounded by disease, natural disasters, ignorance, poverty, etc. Perhaps you should spend a few moments focusing on all of the people who haven't survived religion, rather than ignoring them.

Right, all those fortunate enough to have been raped by us ... those decoy animals have been helpful, eh?

Again, cry me a river for an atheist who can vote, get a job, and education, marry, has legal protections, etc., and yet chooses to take his God granted liberty and ... accuse people of being rapists and himself a victim of that rape ... all without any rape actually occurring. Odd that.


Eliminate religion ... ALL problems solved.
Ridiculous exaggerations, offered in place of a point of debate is often indicative of a lack of any valid point to debate.

Right, you are NOT attempting to ride the world of animal raping lunatics that are killing buy the MILLIONS with only a few fortunate enough to survive.

Who you fooling kiddo?


You know, if you drink the cool aide, there will indeed be no more religion for you.
There was also no more life for those who drank the "Kool Aid", and all of them were religious.

Agh, now atheists are immune to suicide.

You ever heard of the Shining path? November 17th? How about Madelyne Murry O'hare?


Your "cult" is no better than another man's "religion". So be aware that when you reference "cults", you're talking about the same kinds of beliefs you hold, and the very types of beliefs atheists tend to reject.

I'm talking about what brain dead process would lead an otherwise ration person to see rape and pillaging everywhere and walk around ignorantly accusing people of supporting beastiality without even the pretense to do some basic fact checking before launching such a ludicrously insane statement in public.

THAT is definitely the kind of unthinking prattle that earns the moniker 'cultish'.

Oh well, I am off to rape ... a rabbit or something ... that is what the Bible most certainly says ... nothing about that Jesus guy AT ALL.
bulproof
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5/18/2014 8:22:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 7:54:59 AM, neutral wrote:
Right, you are NOT attempting to ride the world of animal raping lunatics that are killing buy the MILLIONS with only a few fortunate enough to survive.

Translation anyone?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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5/18/2014 8:47:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 8:22:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/18/2014 7:54:59 AM, neutral wrote:
Right, you are NOT attempting to ride the world of animal raping lunatics that are killing buy the MILLIONS with only a few fortunate enough to survive.

Translation anyone?

Right forgot to translate that into bridge troll.

"I HATE RELIGION!!!! RAAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!!! RELIGIOUS PEOPLE RAPE ROCKS!!!!! RAAAAAGGHHH!!!! ME HAVE MASSIVE HEMORRHOID!!!!!! RAAAUGHHHH OOOOWWWW!!!!

Get it now?
Mineva
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5/18/2014 9:11:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 7:54:59 AM, neutral wrote:

The Taliban. Umm ... ALL the tribes in Afghanistan are Muslim. The Taliban are mostly Pashtu, who believe they are destined to rule the rule Afghanistan. A kind of manifest destiny Afghan style. So could you explain how religion is driving the issue?

India, a MOASIST insurgency of Naxalites.

Nepal, same thing, slowly healing thanks to the implosion of the former feudal system.

Unighar insurgency in China. Is that religious? They trying to convert China to Islam, or are they a reaction to the flood of Han Chinese into their ancestral homeland and being largely locked out of the resulting political/economic realities?

North Korea? Religious? Really?

Mexican drug war? Religious?

Columbian drug war? Religious?

Lybia? Religious, or the inevitable result of being lead by a crazy, abusive dig bat?

Syria, already covered that.

Iraq? Suna Shia again right? Only its a competition for tribes and blocks for power, with, interestingy enough Iran and Saudi Arabia using proxies. What do you think would happen if these two regional powers just stopped interfering? And the Persian Aran competition? Yeah, it existed even before Islam.

Turkey's war again the Kurds?

Ukraine about religion?

Chechnyan nationalism about religion?

Central African Republic? Arguably religious, but there are those tribe thingy again.

Somalia? all sides are Muslims.

Nigeria? Boko Harem all Islam? And what was the last insurgency in Nigeria? From the same region? Only NOW its all about religion right?

South Sudan? Ethnic right?

Congo? Right Ethnic again.

The stuff between China and Vietnam about religion? Or resources?


All of these turmoils has been launched by non-muslims, still they have so organized formations and intelligence network in muslim countries. Turkish government is trying to wipe them out from their land and you can see how difficult it is, like an ivy they are wrapped in everywhere and in every industry and every authority in the states, these foreing powers have parallel structures in addition to the actual state, parallel judicial organs, parallel troops, parallel police ... They completely seized Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, Egypt .. etc... These are not new things but ongoing for many years. I'm hopeful that new generation muslim youth will change the situation.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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5/18/2014 10:20:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The majority of human suffering, especially recently, has been caused by conflict over land, money, oil, ethnicity, and power, all secular concepts. Take away religion, and the majority, if not all, of human suffering remains.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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5/18/2014 12:51:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 9:11:40 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 5/18/2014 7:54:59 AM, neutral wrote:


The Taliban. Umm ... ALL the tribes in Afghanistan are Muslim. The Taliban are mostly Pashtu, who believe they are destined to rule the rule Afghanistan. A kind of manifest destiny Afghan style. So could you explain how religion is driving the issue?

India, a MOASIST insurgency of Naxalites.

Nepal, same thing, slowly healing thanks to the implosion of the former feudal system.

Unighar insurgency in China. Is that religious? They trying to convert China to Islam, or are they a reaction to the flood of Han Chinese into their ancestral homeland and being largely locked out of the resulting political/economic realities?

North Korea? Religious? Really?

Mexican drug war? Religious?

Columbian drug war? Religious?

Lybia? Religious, or the inevitable result of being lead by a crazy, abusive dig bat?

Syria, already covered that.

Iraq? Suna Shia again right? Only its a competition for tribes and blocks for power, with, interestingy enough Iran and Saudi Arabia using proxies. What do you think would happen if these two regional powers just stopped interfering? And the Persian Aran competition? Yeah, it existed even before Islam.

Turkey's war again the Kurds?

Ukraine about religion?

Chechnyan nationalism about religion?

Central African Republic? Arguably religious, but there are those tribe thingy again.

Somalia? all sides are Muslims.

Nigeria? Boko Harem all Islam? And what was the last insurgency in Nigeria? From the same region? Only NOW its all about religion right?

South Sudan? Ethnic right?

Congo? Right Ethnic again.

The stuff between China and Vietnam about religion? Or resources?



All of these turmoils has been launched by non-muslims, still they have so organized formations and intelligence network in muslim countries. Turkish government is trying to wipe them out from their land and you can see how difficult it is, like an ivy they are wrapped in everywhere and in every industry and every authority in the states, these foreing powers have parallel structures in addition to the actual state, parallel judicial organs, parallel troops, parallel police ... They completely seized Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, Egypt .. etc... These are not new things but ongoing for many years. I'm hopeful that new generation muslim youth will change the situation.

Actually, some of them clearly do have Muslims in them. And others ... do not. FARC guerrillas in Columbia ... not tied to Islam. The Naxalite Insurgency in India is Maoist, it eschews BOTH Hinduism and Islam.

This stuff is not hidden.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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5/18/2014 11:10:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 7:54:59 AM, neutral wrote:

So, is this a sly and completely lacking in humbleness admission that perhaps religion is the THE thing that has caused EVERY problem in the world?

How many times need I state that I've never suggested - nor would I suggest - that religion is the only problem plaguing the world? I've made that very clear, yet you continue to try to put words in my mouth. The world has many detrimental factors to consider. Religion is one of the major ones, but not the only one. Capisce?

Are you unaware of the OP?

Yes. Why do you ask?

Oh, those are promoted in the Bible? Have you ever read the Bible?

It would appear you are the one who hasn't read it. Take a gander at Genesis 2:18. God declares that man should not be alone and seeks to find Adam a "help meet"). That's when God creates all of the beasts of the field and brings them to Adam, (Genesis 2:19). But for Adam, "there was not found an help meet for him" (Genesis 2:20 KJV).

Only then does God put Adam to sleep, extract his rib, and create Eve for him. So it was God's original plan to have Adam copulate with beasts of the field. It was Adam who rejected that idea. So yes, the Bible presents the idea that God wanted man to copulate with animals, and the Bible claims that God is absolutely moral (despite promoting slavery, rape, infanticide, misogyny, etc.),

http://www.biblegateway.com...
Yes. That's called a "contradiction". The Bible is full of them. Different books from different authors, arising from different cultures, present different ideas. Some books claim God wanted us to engage in bestiality, other books claim he didn't.

Go must be using some form of reverse psychology here ... do NOT do these things, actually means ... ahem, go ahead and do them anyway. Are you one of those guys that thinks a woman saying no actually means yes?

No, I'm one of those guys who reads about Lot being the most righteous man (in God's eyes), and then notes that he had sex with his daughters, then offered them to a sex-crazed crowd as a method of protecting his guests. You seem to be one of those people who overlook that, simply because you know it can't possibly be correct. And yet, you still adhere to the Bible as holding some kind of authority which it doesn't actually possess. Perhaps you should show a glimpse of that proclaimed Christian humility at least until you start to understand who between us holds the upper hand in knowledge of the Bible.

Are you actually serious in your ignorance? Or just mean? DO you really think Christians promote beastiality? Are you insane? Or just so ignorant that its essentially the same thing?

If you want to suggest that I'm ignorant we can start a formal debate where I'll mop up the last remaining crumbs of Christianity with your embarrassed (figurative) carcass. If you want to get into the Pericope Adulteraea, the Johannine Coma, the methodology of the Council of Nicaea, the lack of evidence for even a historical Jesus, multiple contradictions in the Bible and the utter failure of Christianity itself in the false prophecy proclaimed in Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32 and Matthew 24:34, along with the origins of Yahweh in pagan mythology, just keep it up. Stop assuming that I'm ignorant when I show you things in the Bible of which you weren't aware. That's your ignorance, not mine.

Since it is clearly you who are unaware of what the Bible contains you would do well to proceed with caution. And no, Christians don't promote bestiality, but the Bible does. Christians are adamantly opposed to many things the Bible promotes; slavery, honor killings, giving up worldly possessions, having no thought for the morrow (days to come), raping women as a form of punishment, kidnapping young virgin women as spoils of war, infanticide, genocide... all of those things are promoted in the Bible and said to be God's moral justice. But Christians today realize how absurd that is. They just don't seem to understand how absurd it is to hold the Bible as the moral law, when it's filled with so much immoral barbarity that even they would never dream of trying to live by it's laws.

Right, I'll bet that offended you, but running around saying, "Your religion PROMOTES beastiality you sickos," is just fine.
Well, there's a difference. The bible does promote bestiality, incest, slavery, infanticide, bigotry, rape, hatred and war. If you doubt that, I'll show you.

Ration atheism? This is not.
The idea that atheism isn't rational is no different than claiming that disbelief in fairies isn't rational. Both are founded upon precisely the same set of logical premises,

Right, the vast majority of religious people not raping animals and actually defying God.
Genesis Chapter 2; read it.

What fabulous faith choice your atheism is that would lead you to think that way.
"Faith" is belief without evidence, or contrary to the evidence. There isn't a shred of evidence contrary to atheism, and not a shred of evidence for theism.

If you disagree, then present the evidence for God, or the evidence against atheism. Be my guest... think hard.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/19/2014 12:01:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

I'm not a fan of religion, but I strongly support spirituality. The trick is seeing the spiritual aspect that exists as part of every human being instead of dividing them into religious camps. There is something about mankind which makes it more important than the sum of all its characteristics.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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5/19/2014 12:29:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 12:01:13 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

I'm not a fan of religion, but I strongly support spirituality. The trick is seeing the spiritual aspect that exists as part of every human being instead of dividing them into religious camps. There is something about mankind which makes it more important than the sum of all its characteristics.
And that IMO is hubris.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/19/2014 1:44:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 12:29:17 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:01:13 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

I'm not a fan of religion, but I strongly support spirituality. The trick is seeing the spiritual aspect that exists as part of every human being instead of dividing them into religious camps. There is something about mankind which makes it more important than the sum of all its characteristics.
And that IMO is hubris.

Everybody has an opinion, I guess.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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5/19/2014 2:04:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 1:44:29 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:29:17 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:01:13 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

I'm not a fan of religion, but I strongly support spirituality. The trick is seeing the spiritual aspect that exists as part of every human being instead of dividing them into religious camps. There is something about mankind which makes it more important than the sum of all its characteristics.
And that IMO is hubris.

Everybody has an opinion, I guess.

Oh I didn't mean to disparage you in any way ideal. I am often , if not always, blunt.
I believe that the human belief in it's superiority and the rewards it is due as a result of that superiority is hubris.
It's the human condition, if you like.

It's the human paradox, we break the law of contradiction. We are both special and not special simultaneously.
We are special because of our superior intellect, we are not special because we die like everything else.
God's and religions are a natural consequence of this paradox.
That doesn't make them true.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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5/19/2014 3:32:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 10:20:34 AM, HPWKA wrote:
The majority of human suffering, especially recently, has been caused by conflict over land, money, oil, ethnicity, and power, all secular concepts. Take away religion, and the majority, if not all, of human suffering remains.

It seems you're forgetting that the reasons politicians go to war is often not the reason the actual combatants fight. it would seem that G.W. Bush knew this when he was seeking permission to proceed with his illegal war against Afghanistan and Iraq. The U.N. shot him down (and rightly so), so he simply turned to the largest segment of intellectually devoid Americans - the Christian majority. Not only does the statement "I choose to listen to God", not belong in the speech of any politician, it most certainly doesn't belong in the State of the Union address. And yet, that's exactly what we found our supposed rational Chief Executive officer spewing to the nation. And it worked! Within a week polls were showing majority approval for the invasion of another country, without provocation. We're still there.

Perhaps you should look at the combatants of some contemporary wars and see if you can perhaps glean their actual motivation for fighting.

- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

You can say all you want about the political motivations. But the actual motivation to fight seems almost invariably to come from a single source - people insisting that they have the more powerful sky-fairy.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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5/19/2014 10:45:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 7:17:38 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 5/18/2014 2:51:17 AM, neutral wrote:
Religion has been around for how long? Right, the ENTIRE period of human history.

As has atheism, homosexuality, disease, ignorance, war, hatred, infidelity, etc. What point were you hoping to present?

I mean, should you have sex with your daughter? Your mother? Your sister? Animals?
And you're filing this under homosexuality? It seems the only objection you've managed is that it doesn't allow for offspring to inherit your property. So you keep tossing incest (promoted in the Bible), and bestiality (promoted in the Bible), as though those practices fall under the title of "homosexuality". You do know what homosexuality is, don't you?

Stupid religion, eh?
Quite, but more accurately, those adhering to it. (Just being honest.)

Yet brainwashed dolts suddenly find that something that has been around forever is actually been undermining the very thing that it helped create.
One would be justified in suggesting it has been the "brainwashed dolts" who have prevented the wide-spread recognition that religion is a huge deficit to humanity, rather than the benefit it proclaims itself to be. It's the singular primary motivation for war, the primary justification for prejudice and bigotry, the chief reason people have for embracing their ignorance and rejecting knowledge and intellect. Just because something has been around for a long time, doesn't mean it's beneficial. I direct you again to; natural disasters, disease, ignorance, war, hatred, infidelity, etc. Those have been around throughout human history as well. Does that mean we should seek to preserve and promote them?

You are aware that, for several hundred years, there has been no major religious war in the West?
Are you aware that there has scarcely been a time in human history when there weren't multiple wars in some part of the world, and that the majority of those wars comprise a religious motivation?

But since you've mentions the west, have you noticed that the west is continually involving itself in the wars in the East? And have you noticed that many of these wars have an underlying religious motivation? In fact, the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were only approved by the American populace after a dishonest president assured the country that he "listens to God". And with that, many religious Americans forgot about the lack of evidence, ignored the fact that the targeted countries had nothing to do with the acts of terror to which America was victim, and grouped behind a dishonest public servant, in promoting an illegal war, on religious motivation, which is still being fought, and has lead to the death of well over 100,000 people. It is easy to suggest that those lives might have been spared had people remained rational, rather than falling to the prompting of religious references.

"Wait a minute, I am alive DESPITE being surrounded by nefarious, evil, goodfornothing religious people! What gives?"
Again, we're also surrounded by disease, natural disasters, ignorance, poverty, etc. Perhaps you should spend a few moments focusing on all of the people who haven't survived religion, rather than ignoring them.

Eliminate religion ... ALL problems solved.
Ridiculous exaggerations, offered in place of a point of debate is often indicative of a lack of any valid point to debate. I never said that the elimination of religion would solve all of the world's problems. But it would likely eliminate, and/or reduce a great many of them.

You know, if you drink the cool aide, there will indeed be no more religion for you.
There was also no more life for those who drank the "Kool Aid", and all of them were religious. The problem here; and the main point of my asking you about your reference to cults is that you don't seem to realize that the only difference between a "cult" and a "religion" is the number of members and its longevity. Aside from that, they're both a matter of subscribing to beliefs devoid of evidence, which are most often somewhat devoid of reason, rationality and a degree of intellect as well.

Your "cult" is no better than another man's "religion". So be aware that when you reference "cults", you're talking about the same kinds of beliefs you hold, and the very types of beliefs atheists tend to reject.

Go back and read the OP.

That "You" did not say it doesn't mean I cannot disagree with it. And when you sign up for the side saying it? Does that mean what is said in the OP was not uttered by an atheist?

You apparently disagree with the sentiment - so maybe you should tell your fellow atheists to stop being rabid anti-theists?

WTF are you even disagreeing with me, if the very words I take issue with ... 'you' didn't say them.

Either condemn them or acknowledge you share the sentiment, but the entire process of atheism doesn't revolve around whether or not YOU said something. Its in the OP atheist. Its not uncommon for atheists to similar things.

This absurd idea that I need EVERY atheist to say something before I am allowed to disagree with it is stupid. Irrational ... and rather cultish.

After all, how hard is the reverse?

The Westboro Baptist Church is an extremist group of Christians. I do not agree with them and indeed denounce what they say. It does not reflect the majority of my Christian views, and, not just I, but many actively condemn them and are working within the legal system to limit their actions and the damage they cause.

That sounds MUCH better than, "Phbt! I didn't say that .. therefore NO ONE can criticize what the Westboro Baptist church says."

Pretty stupid. Anyone saying that about the WBC would be laughed at. Yet here we sit with some atheist actually offering up, "I didn't say that," as if its is somehow relevant to a rejection of what IS WRITTEN in the OP.

Its illogical reasoning like that which causes me to think a great many atheists have checked out their brain to someone else and simply joined a cult.
bulproof
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5/19/2014 10:49:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ya just can't tell who the scotsmen are anymore. DAMN.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/20/2014 7:53:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 2:04:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/19/2014 1:44:29 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:29:17 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:01:13 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

I'm not a fan of religion, but I strongly support spirituality. The trick is seeing the spiritual aspect that exists as part of every human being instead of dividing them into religious camps. There is something about mankind which makes it more important than the sum of all its characteristics.
And that IMO is hubris.

Everybody has an opinion, I guess.

Oh I didn't mean to disparage you in any way ideal. I am often , if not always, blunt.
I believe that the human belief in it's superiority and the rewards it is due as a result of that superiority is hubris.
It's the human condition, if you like.

It's the human paradox, we break the law of contradiction. We are both special and not special simultaneously.
We are special because of our superior intellect, we are not special because we die like everything else.
God's and religions are a natural consequence of this paradox.
That doesn't make them true.

It's an understandable stance to take. I personally feel that there is a very obvious separation between man and animal (although I'm an animal lover myself) but I can see why some people don't. Some believe we are all just animals, and some (like my GF) believe animals have souls, too.
SeniorJunior15
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5/20/2014 9:10:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"


I"m concerned that you"re missing a few things in your analysis of the question. First off, you are resorting to a hasty generalization to prove your point. You say that "we" (whom I can only assume you meant to mean religious individuals) commit various injustices on the basis of religion, and therefore religion should be discredited. However, while religion may have caused various problems in history such as humans judging or fighting each other, it is extreme to generalize religious people as a "tragic misstep in human history" because there have been isolated incidents that would suggest as much. True, it may seem like these "isolated incidents" are too frequent and too significant, but compared to the number of religious individuals who have led kind, productive, and peaceful lives, the number of atrocities committed is not as glaringly significant.

Moreover, your argument ignores a common cause. You pointed out, correctly, that many people are religious. You pointed out, correctly, that human history has tragically included poor behavior between different peoples. However, this animosity does not necessarily have to be attributed to religion. Religion as a whole does not prove that human history is a tragedy. You fail to take into account that a third factor might be the cause of the hatred and bitter feeling.

Humans have a tendency to disagree, fight, and cause each other harm. It"s a bit Hobbesian, but there"s evil in this world. There is going to be war as long as there are humans. Religion is not necessarily the cause. In fact, religion, in more cases than not, has given meaning to people"s lives. In an otherwise chaotic world, people turned to religion and found some sense of order, morality, and purpose that has lent to humanity another innovation: a sense of morality. Far from being the cause of the evil you pointed out in your argument, religion is the reason you can look at said hatred and say, "this is wrong." Without religion and fundamental morality, you would have no reason to say that what you perceive around you is improper. If humanity had not developed religion, and, as an outgrowth, morality, there would be no sense of immorality upon which to blame religion.
mendel
Posts: 73
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5/21/2014 12:12:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"

What is to be said by this? How can we fix this?

The answer to that question is simple: we can't fix it. We are bound to go extinct if we keep going like this.

What your against is war, a very commendable thing. The reason your against religion is because it has been the cause of many wars. For the same price you should be against atheism and secularism because it brought us in the twentieth century the worst tyrannies and wars in human history Nazi Germany and communism.

The Nazi ideology was largely based on the ideas of evolution, and that there are all kinds of levels in the human race and some groups are subhuman etc. (ideas stemming from evolution) they believed in survival of the fittest, that the lower humans bring the rest of the world down and so on.
As well as communism was an atheistic society to the extreme, and they brought terrible tragedy to mankind.

So my opinion is that you got the whole thing wrong, it's not that religion brings war it's a type of religion, just like a type of secularism brings war.

Just as an as side, one of great things about Judaism is that it's not part of the religion, the belief that the whole world should convert to Judaism, because it says that every person could be an upright and moral gentile and be close to g-d and does not need to be Jewish. (in fact Jews discourage converts and explain this point to them,if they really want, then we go through the conversion process).If all people (both secular and religious) would be a little more, live and let live kind of style the world would be a better place.
dzuck114
Posts: 2
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6/1/2014 4:26:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2014 9:10:30 PM, SeniorJunior15 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"


I"m concerned that you"re missing a few things in your analysis of the question. First off, you are resorting to a hasty generalization to prove your point. You say that "we" (whom I can only assume you meant to mean religious individuals) commit various injustices on the basis of religion, and therefore religion should be discredited. However, while religion may have caused various problems in history such as humans judging or fighting each other, it is extreme to generalize religious people as a "tragic misstep in human history" because there have been isolated incidents that would suggest as much. True, it may seem like these "isolated incidents" are too frequent and too significant, but compared to the number of religious individuals who have led kind, productive, and peaceful lives, the number of atrocities committed is not as glaringly significant.

Moreover, your argument ignores a common cause. You pointed out, correctly, that many people are religious. You pointed out, correctly, that human history has tragically included poor behavior between different peoples. However, this animosity does not necessarily have to be attributed to religion. Religion as a whole does not prove that human history is a tragedy. You fail to take into account that a third factor might be the cause of the hatred and bitter feeling.

Humans have a tendency to disagree, fight, and cause each other harm. It"s a bit Hobbesian, but there"s evil in this world. There is going to be war as long as there are humans. Religion is not necessarily the cause. In fact, religion, in more cases than not, has given meaning to people"s lives. In an otherwise chaotic world, people turned to religion and found some sense of order, morality, and purpose that has lent to humanity another innovation: a sense of morality. Far from being the cause of the evil you pointed out in your argument, religion is the reason you can look at said hatred and say, "this is wrong." Without religion and fundamental morality, you would have no reason to say that what you perceive around you is improper. If humanity had not developed religion, and, as an outgrowth, morality, there would be no sense of immorality upon which to blame religion.

How can you say that it is a "hasty generalization" that humans have suffered throughout history due to religion. You say that more often than not religion leads to success and happiness and that religion comes with few "isolated incidents" of persecution. Are the attacks of radical jihadists "isolated" or have millions world wide experienced the ripple effects? Thousands die each year due to attacks over religion. Thousands more innocent civilians die in the retaliation attacks of the western world. Even today religion causes suffering around the globe.
You also argued that religion leads to honest, moral citizens. Was it moral when in 1492 Spain expelled thousands of Jews because of their religion? Was it moral when the crusaders murdered thousands of both Jews and Muslims? Clearly religion is intended to lead people to be moral but it has done exactly the opposite throughout history.
Religion in its spirit is a fantastic guideline for people to live by but throughout history corrupt people have used it for evil and their own personal gains.
rnl516
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6/3/2014 10:57:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2014 9:10:30 PM, SeniorJunior15 wrote:
At 5/16/2014 2:43:50 PM, Tyler5362 wrote:
Religion Is a Tragic Misstep in Human History...

...I understand that some of you may be offended by that bold statement. However, it is my statement. I view human history as a tragedy. Religion (as a whole) proves that. We go through life thinking nothing besides what sins we make and how we can prove, "God (Allah, etc..)," that we are worthy to go to heaven. We judge others by their religion and not by their character. We see people who believe things differently and scrutinize them accordingly to suit our own beliefs. We judge people's sexuality to better suit what is said in a, "Holy Book," that was written by a mere mortal like you and I. How many wars are there going to be that are going to be declared in the name of, "God?"


I"m concerned that you"re missing a few things in your analysis of the question. First off, you are resorting to a hasty generalization to prove your point. You say that "we" (whom I can only assume you meant to mean religious individuals) commit various injustices on the basis of religion, and therefore religion should be discredited. However, while religion may have caused various problems in history such as humans judging or fighting each other, it is extreme to generalize religious people as a "tragic misstep in human history" because there have been isolated incidents that would suggest as much. True, it may seem like these "isolated incidents" are too frequent and too significant, but compared to the number of religious individuals who have led kind, productive, and peaceful lives, the number of atrocities committed is not as glaringly significant.

Moreover, your argument ignores a common cause. You pointed out, correctly, that many people are religious. You pointed out, correctly, that human history has tragically included poor behavior between different peoples. However, this animosity does not necessarily have to be attributed to religion. Religion as a whole does not prove that human history is a tragedy. You fail to take into account that a third factor might be the cause of the hatred and bitter feeling.

Humans have a tendency to disagree, fight, and cause each other harm. It"s a bit Hobbesian, but there"s evil in this world. There is going to be war as long as there are humans. Religion is not necessarily the cause. In fact, religion, in more cases than not, has given meaning to people"s lives. In an otherwise chaotic world, people turned to religion and found some sense of order, morality, and purpose that has lent to humanity another innovation: a sense of morality. Far from being the cause of the evil you pointed out in your argument, religion is the reason you can look at said hatred and say, "this is wrong." Without religion and fundamental morality, you would have no reason to say that what you perceive around you is improper. If humanity had not developed religion, and, as an outgrowth, morality, there would be no sense of immorality upon which to blame religion.

I fully agree with the majority of your argument, but I take issue with the last point you made. "Without religion and fundamental morality, you would have no reason to say that what you perceive around you is improper. If humanity had not developed religion, and, as an outgrowth, morality, there would be no sense of immorality upon which to blame religion." The idea of morality being an outgrowth of religion has been debated for centuries and is not a given. Socrates addressed this question in a debate with Euthyphro. Socrates first started with the statement, "Because God commands it, it is moral", then the logical next step is that if God came to you and told you to torture someone, then that would become the morally right thing to do. Since God could come at anytime and switch what is moral or not, the basis of morality becomes arbitrary. In response to this socratic dilemma, many "Divine command theorist" responded that God commands something because it is moral. However, this statement then separates God from the moral. God becomes someone that recognizes right vs. wrong but does not command it, thereby strengthening the argument that morality exists separately from God.
However, regardless of whether religion is the reason you can look and say "this is wrong", religion does allow religious people to strengthen their ethical boundaries. Whether or not those boundaries come from God, does not impede religious people from staying within those boundaries to please God.