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The Paradox of A Just God -- No Forgiveness

bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/17/2014 4:37:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Found here [http://www.reddit.com...]

Essentially, the Paradox is that Christianity claims that one can always be forgiven by repenting and accepting Christ. However, a Just God would punish transgressions of His moral code for the victim's sake. Otherwise, the moral code is meaningless.

An alternate argument regarding a Just God has to do with doing good works. A Just God would allow people who did good works -- even without an expectation of going to heaven vs. hell -- into heaven. In fact, doing the good works for their own sake -- rather than to avoid hell -- would be seen as *more noble* by a Just God. However, an Unjust God would send such people to Hell for not believing in Him, even though the proof of His existence was not perfect.

Yet, if we're dealing with an Unjust God, all bets are off. An Unjust God doesn't even have to honor His promises to his own followers.

So either you have a Just God who lets atheists into heaven and does *not* forgive moral trangressions against others, *or* you have an Unjust God who does whatever he d@mn well pleases, which could be sending everyone to Hell. An Unjust God would be indistinguishable in many ways from the Christian devil.

Thoughts?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Measure
Posts: 142
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5/17/2014 7:25:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 4:37:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Found here [http://www.reddit.com...]

Essentially, the Paradox is that Christianity claims that one can always be forgiven by repenting and accepting Christ. However, a Just God would punish transgressions of His moral code for the victim's sake. Otherwise, the moral code is meaningless.

An alternate argument regarding a Just God has to do with doing good works. A Just God would allow people who did good works -- even without an expectation of going to heaven vs. hell -- into heaven. In fact, doing the good works for their own sake -- rather than to avoid hell -- would be seen as *more noble* by a Just God. However, an Unjust God would send such people to Hell for not believing in Him, even though the proof of His existence was not perfect.

Yet, if we're dealing with an Unjust God, all bets are off. An Unjust God doesn't even have to honor His promises to his own followers.

So either you have a Just God who lets atheists into heaven and does *not* forgive moral trangressions against others, *or* you have an Unjust God who does whatever he d@mn well pleases, which could be sending everyone to Hell. An Unjust God would be indistinguishable in many ways from the Christian devil.

Thoughts?

Is the idea of forgiveness offensive to you? Repentance is, heart change, where the one who is repenting, once done repenting and receives forgiveness, sets out to make restitution for the offence as much as in his hands are capable, regardless the cost to him/herself. If the heart stays the same neither repentance nor forgiveness has been experienced. An unjust god cares neither for repentance nor forgiveness, just punishment, for the transgression.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/17/2014 8:07:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 4:37:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Found here [http://www.reddit.com...]

Essentially, the Paradox is that Christianity claims that one can always be forgiven by repenting and accepting Christ. However, a Just God would punish transgressions of His moral code for the victim's sake. Otherwise, the moral code is meaningless.

An alternate argument regarding a Just God has to do with doing good works. A Just God would allow people who did good works -- even without an expectation of going to heaven vs. hell -- into heaven. In fact, doing the good works for their own sake -- rather than to avoid hell -- would be seen as *more noble* by a Just God. However, an Unjust God would send such people to Hell for not believing in Him, even though the proof of His existence was not perfect.

Yet, if we're dealing with an Unjust God, all bets are off. An Unjust God doesn't even have to honor His promises to his own followers.

So either you have a Just God who lets atheists into heaven and does *not* forgive moral trangressions against others, *or* you have an Unjust God who does whatever he d@mn well pleases, which could be sending everyone to Hell. An Unjust God would be indistinguishable in many ways from the Christian devil.

Thoughts?

People punish other people and people also punish themselves and feel individual guilt for wrong doings. No invisible person in the sky punishes or rewards anyone. Forgiveness is a human attitude. People decide whether or not to forgive.
What's the point of any invisible imaginary being forgiving you if you can't forgive yourself or others don't forgive you for what you do wrong in their opinions? Gaining a clear conscience is about making right whatever you have done wrong in the first place or forgiving yourself for the wrong if you can't make restitution for it.
God is life. In life we find forgiveness from some and unforgiveness from others. That's the paradox of life but that's the way it is. Does that make life unjust?
Life is not an invisible supernatural individual in the sky.
Those who worship the invisible individual in the sky are idolizing a fantasy.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/17/2014 9:07:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 7:25:24 PM, Measure wrote:
At 5/17/2014 4:37:10 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Found here [http://www.reddit.com...]

Essentially, the Paradox is that Christianity claims that one can always be forgiven by repenting and accepting Christ. However, a Just God would punish transgressions of His moral code for the victim's sake. Otherwise, the moral code is meaningless.

An alternate argument regarding a Just God has to do with doing good works. A Just God would allow people who did good works -- even without an expectation of going to heaven vs. hell -- into heaven. In fact, doing the good works for their own sake -- rather than to avoid hell -- would be seen as *more noble* by a Just God. However, an Unjust God would send such people to Hell for not believing in Him, even though the proof of His existence was not perfect.

Yet, if we're dealing with an Unjust God, all bets are off. An Unjust God doesn't even have to honor His promises to his own followers.

So either you have a Just God who lets atheists into heaven and does *not* forgive moral trangressions against others, *or* you have an Unjust God who does whatever he d@mn well pleases, which could be sending everyone to Hell. An Unjust God would be indistinguishable in many ways from the Christian devil.

Thoughts?

Is the idea of forgiveness offensive to you? Repentance is, heart change, where the one who is repenting, once done repenting and receives forgiveness, sets out to make restitution for the offence as much as in his hands are capable, regardless the cost to him/herself. If the heart stays the same neither repentance nor forgiveness has been experienced. An unjust god cares neither for repentance nor forgiveness, just punishment, for the transgression.

Infinite punishment for finite crimes in and of itself, is an unjust concept.

But mercy is the suspension of Justice. The fact that a murderer is repentant and pleads guilty, doesnt mean that we let them go off scott free. They still pay the price, they are still punished. Is our justice system, unjust, if we do not let people who plead guilty, go off without punishment?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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5/18/2014 12:15:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Is the idea of forgiveness offensive to you?

It's more the idea of paying for forgiveness that I find offensive.

Repentance is, heart change, where the one who is repenting, once done repenting and receives forgiveness, sets out to make restitution

What if you weren't forgiven? Would you still repent?

If the heart stays the same neither repentance nor forgiveness has been experienced.

Not according to Christian doctrine. It claims that as long as you accept that Jesus died for your sins, you're good to go and worthy of Heaven.

An unjust god cares neither for repentance nor forgiveness, just punishment, for the transgression.

But the whole idea of Christianity is to not be punished for your transgressions. Instead you let an innocent take the punishment and whistle "aren't I lucky" as you skip through the gates of Heaven.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire