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God (the Christian one) and beauty

Ragnar
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5/17/2014 5:00:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
While I remain an atheist, I thought I'd share a final project I wrote for one of my classes (this has already been turned in a month ago, and graded at 98% before a couple typos were fixed)...

Beauty.

In consideration of great suffering, such as the very tangible factor of death, God* is more beautiful if not constrained into the popular box of all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. While God may not be obviously tangible, perception is a series of impulses we choose to believe in. To believe in God is not vastly different than believing a fallen tree started as a standing tree which fell, as opposed to having begun as an already fallen tree. Both require inference, even if unequal levels of it.

People attempt to imagine an absolutely infallible supreme being, which is boxed into being a trinity of all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. As absolute maximums, these three traits try to place God above our ability to imagine, and fail. They in fact oversimplify God within our language, thereby degrading the beauty of God. First, this habit makes God an English inclusive entity,** running the risk of something similar to the nationalistic "Gott Mit Uns" (translated: God [is] with us/God [fights] with us) belt buckles seen in Nazi Germany. Second, it makes suffering easy to dismiss as a part of some unknowable plan, which has historically been intensified to the Augustinian theodicy of victim blaming.*** Third, it plainly places limits on God"s free will, as love is either a choice, or proof of the absence of free will. As the Imago Dei is measured by us having free will, and God cannot be without free will, God must love creation by choice.****

Love is a choice, which limits us. Once we love another, there are actions we can no longer take towards them, as well as actions we must take toward them. This is evidenced every day by the beauty of good parents guarding and providing for their children.***** However, ceasing to love is not a choice. A good parent cannot simply cease feeding his or her hungry children, nor can he or she throw out a single bad child, even if such would be of greater benefit to his or her well-behaved children.

If God loves creation, then there are actions which God can no longer take, and actions God must take. If God"s actions are limited by love, God has given up some power over creation. Therefore if God is all-loving, God can no longer be all-powerful. God is far more beautiful if able to be complex enough to have given up something.****** This also explains in better terms the historical inaction of God against evil, as demonstrated countless times by parents not dismissing the bad no matter how beneficial it would be to all the good.

Footnotes:
*Real or imagined, a beautiful and influential concept.
**While likely doing the same in other languages, it needlessly creates a division which is more likely to drive people apart than unite them.
***Attempting to pass (at least some) blame for the vileness in the world God created, to the victims of evil, rather than those who actually commit it.
****God without the Imago Dei, would not be defined as God; at least not to our understanding of having been made in the divine image.
*****This may be different for bad parents, but God is presumed good.
******Much like the notion of kenosis.
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Measure
Posts: 142
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5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 5:00:51 PM, Ragnar wrote:
While I remain an atheist, I thought I'd share a final project I wrote for one of my classes (this has already been turned in a month ago, and graded at 98% before a couple typos were fixed)...


Beauty.

In consideration of great suffering, such as the very tangible factor of death, God* is more beautiful if not constrained into the popular box of all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. While God may not be obviously tangible, perception is a series of impulses we choose to believe in. To believe in God is not vastly different than believing a fallen tree started as a standing tree which fell, as opposed to having begun as an already fallen tree. Both require inference, even if unequal levels of it.

People attempt to imagine an absolutely infallible supreme being, which is boxed into being a trinity of all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. As absolute maximums, these three traits try to place God above our ability to imagine, and fail. They in fact oversimplify God within our language, thereby degrading the beauty of God. First, this habit makes God an English inclusive entity,** running the risk of something similar to the nationalistic "Gott Mit Uns" (translated: God [is] with us/God [fights] with us) belt buckles seen in Nazi Germany. Second, it makes suffering easy to dismiss as a part of some unknowable plan, which has historically been intensified to the Augustinian theodicy of victim blaming.*** Third, it plainly places limits on God"s free will, as love is either a choice, or proof of the absence of free will. As the Imago Dei is measured by us having free will, and God cannot be without free will, God must love creation by choice.****

Love is a choice, which limits us. Once we love another, there are actions we can no longer take towards them, as well as actions we must take toward them. This is evidenced every day by the beauty of good parents guarding and providing for their children.***** However, ceasing to love is not a choice. A good parent cannot simply cease feeding his or her hungry children, nor can he or she throw out a single bad child, even if such would be of greater benefit to his or her well-behaved children.

If God loves creation, then there are actions which God can no longer take, and actions God must take. If God"s actions are limited by love, God has given up some power over creation. Therefore if God is all-loving, God can no longer be all-powerful. God is far more beautiful if able to be complex enough to have given up something.****** This also explains in better terms the historical inaction of God against evil, as demonstrated countless times by parents not dismissing the bad no matter how beneficial it would be to all the good.

Footnotes:
*Real or imagined, a beautiful and influential concept.
**While likely doing the same in other languages, it needlessly creates a division which is more likely to drive people apart than unite them.
***Attempting to pass (at least some) blame for the vileness in the world God created, to the victims of evil, rather than those who actually commit it.
****God without the Imago Dei, would not be defined as God; at least not to our understanding of having been made in the divine image.
*****This may be different for bad parents, but God is presumed good.
******Much like the notion of kenosis.

GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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5/17/2014 8:25:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I tried to consider this post carefully, but all I can think of now is German Nazis going around asking "Got mittens?"
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.
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bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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5/19/2014 3:12:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
At 5/17/2014 5:00:51 PM, Ragnar wrote:
While I remain an atheist, I thought I'd share a final project I wrote for one of my classes (this has already been turned in a month ago, and graded at 98% before a couple typos were fixed)...


Beauty.

In consideration of great suffering, such as the very tangible factor of death, God* is more beautiful if not constrained into the popular box of all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. While God may not be obviously tangible, perception is a series of impulses we choose to believe in. To believe in God is not vastly different than believing a fallen tree started as a standing tree which fell, as opposed to having begun as an already fallen tree. Both require inference, even if unequal levels of it.

People attempt to imagine an absolutely infallible supreme being, which is boxed into being a trinity of all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. As absolute maximums, these three traits try to place God above our ability to imagine, and fail. They in fact oversimplify God within our language, thereby degrading the beauty of God. First, this habit makes God an English inclusive entity,** running the risk of something similar to the nationalistic "Gott Mit Uns" (translated: God [is] with us/God [fights] with us) belt buckles seen in Nazi Germany. Second, it makes suffering easy to dismiss as a part of some unknowable plan, which has historically been intensified to the Augustinian theodicy of victim blaming.*** Third, it plainly places limits on God"s free will, as love is either a choice, or proof of the absence of free will. As the Imago Dei is measured by us having free will, and God cannot be without free will, God must love creation by choice.****

Love is a choice, which limits us. Once we love another, there are actions we can no longer take towards them, as well as actions we must take toward them. This is evidenced every day by the beauty of good parents guarding and providing for their children.***** However, ceasing to love is not a choice. A good parent cannot simply cease feeding his or her hungry children, nor can he or she throw out a single bad child, even if such would be of greater benefit to his or her well-behaved children.

If God loves creation, then there are actions which God can no longer take, and actions God must take. If God"s actions are limited by love, God has given up some power over creation. Therefore if God is all-loving, God can no longer be all-powerful. God is far more beautiful if able to be complex enough to have given up something.****** This also explains in better terms the historical inaction of God against evil, as demonstrated countless times by parents not dismissing the bad no matter how beneficial it would be to all the good.

Footnotes:
*Real or imagined, a beautiful and influential concept.
**While likely doing the same in other languages, it needlessly creates a division which is more likely to drive people apart than unite them.
***Attempting to pass (at least some) blame for the vileness in the world God created, to the victims of evil, rather than those who actually commit it.
****God without the Imago Dei, would not be defined as God; at least not to our understanding of having been made in the divine image.
*****This may be different for bad parents, but God is presumed good.
******Much like the notion of kenosis.


GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

And you know this how?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Ragnar
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5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bulproof, purely out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on what I wrote?
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annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/21/2014 6:19:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
Bulproof, purely out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on what I wrote?

I'll lay 8 to 5 that he didn't read 1/2 of it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why people claim on the one hand that God is (1) all-knowing, past and present and future and yet (2) all-powerful, except that He doesn't quite have the power to leave many things in the hands of man, or nature, or chance. The Bible gives multiple instances of God changing His mind, for whatever reason.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/21/2014 6:29:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
If God"s actions are limited by love, God has given up some power over creation. Therefore if God is all-loving, God can no longer be all-powerful.

"Given up" is .... I don't know .... perhaps not the best phrase. God set the whole thing in motion: He created Adam and Eve by miracle. They created the rest of us by procreation. Either that, or some inanimate elements got together and started living - and billions of years later can't explain where they came from.

It seems to me that God, in spite of the fact that He has an overall plan, has indeed voluntarily relinquished the microtuning of the creation. I see no evidence - nor do I expect to do so - of God's involvement in a miraculous way in anything post-A. D. 70. Prior to those few pre-A. D. 70 decades, 400 years had passed with no message of any kind from God.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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5/27/2014 10:56:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/21/2014 6:29:47 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
If God"s actions are limited by love, God has given up some power over creation. Therefore if God is all-loving, God can no longer be all-powerful.

"Given up" is .... I don't know .... perhaps not the best phrase. God set the whole thing in motion: He created Adam and Eve by miracle. They created the rest of us by procreation. Either that, or some inanimate elements got together and started living - and billions of years later can't explain where they came from.

It seems to me that God, in spite of the fact that He has an overall plan, has indeed voluntarily relinquished the microtuning of the creation. I see no evidence - nor do I expect to do so - of God's involvement in a miraculous way in anything post-A. D. 70. Prior to those few pre-A. D. 70 decades, 400 years had passed with no message of any kind from God.

"Relinquished" would indeed have been a better word choice. Thank you.
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annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/27/2014 11:47:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:56:31 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/21/2014 6:29:47 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
If God"s actions are limited by love, God has given up some power over creation. Therefore if God is all-loving, God can no longer be all-powerful.

"Given up" is .... I don't know .... perhaps not the best phrase. God set the whole thing in motion: He created Adam and Eve by miracle. They created the rest of us by procreation. Either that, or some inanimate elements got together and started living - and billions of years later can't explain where they came from.

It seems to me that God, in spite of the fact that He has an overall plan, has indeed voluntarily relinquished the microtuning of the creation. I see no evidence - nor do I expect to do so - of God's involvement in a miraculous way in anything post-A. D. 70. Prior to those few pre-A. D. 70 decades, 400 years had passed with no message of any kind from God.

"Relinquished" would indeed have been a better word choice. Thank you.

Possibly.

I have never believed God was there fine-tuning folks' every predetermined move.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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5/27/2014 11:56:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/21/2014 6:19:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
Bulproof, purely out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on what I wrote?

I'll lay 8 to 5 that he didn't read 1/2 of it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why people claim on the one hand that God is (1) all-knowing, past and present and future and yet (2) all-powerful, except that He doesn't quite have the power to leave many things in the hands of man, or nature, or chance. The Bible gives multiple instances of God changing His mind, for whatever reason.

Aye and there's the rub.
The christian god is a continually moving target. No christian believes in the same god that another christian believes in.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/27/2014 11:57:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:56:28 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/21/2014 6:19:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
Bulproof, purely out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on what I wrote?

I'll lay 8 to 5 that he didn't read 1/2 of it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why people claim on the one hand that God is (1) all-knowing, past and present and future and yet (2) all-powerful, except that He doesn't quite have the power to leave many things in the hands of man, or nature, or chance. The Bible gives multiple instances of God changing His mind, for whatever reason.

Aye and there's the rub.
The christian god is a continually moving target. No christian believes in the same god that another christian believes in.

Yeah, they do: they simply disagree concerning some of His attributes.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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5/28/2014 12:15:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:57:52 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:56:28 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/21/2014 6:19:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
Bulproof, purely out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on what I wrote?

I'll lay 8 to 5 that he didn't read 1/2 of it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why people claim on the one hand that God is (1) all-knowing, past and present and future and yet (2) all-powerful, except that He doesn't quite have the power to leave many things in the hands of man, or nature, or chance. The Bible gives multiple instances of God changing His mind, for whatever reason.

Aye and there's the rub.
The christian god is a continually moving target. No christian believes in the same god that another christian believes in.

Yeah, they do: they simply disagree concerning some of His attributes.
Woops he just moved again.
Quick ain't he?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/28/2014 12:17:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 12:15:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:57:52 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:56:28 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/21/2014 6:19:40 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/21/2014 12:39:33 AM, Ragnar wrote:
Bulproof, purely out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on what I wrote?

I'll lay 8 to 5 that he didn't read 1/2 of it.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why people claim on the one hand that God is (1) all-knowing, past and present and future and yet (2) all-powerful, except that He doesn't quite have the power to leave many things in the hands of man, or nature, or chance. The Bible gives multiple instances of God changing His mind, for whatever reason.

Aye and there's the rub.
The christian god is a continually moving target. No christian believes in the same god that another christian believes in.

Yeah, they do: they simply disagree concerning some of His attributes.
Woops he just moved again.
Quick ain't he?

Pffffffffffft
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/7/2014 2:30:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.

When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?

Right, it was a time when man was wicked beyond belief, and what got them in trouble was largely attacks on God's chosen people: the Jews. The Jews who HAD to survive if the message of God would find root. He gave wicked a pernicious men proof of his power to enable the survival of the Jewish people ... even giving them mana from Heaven when they were faced with starvation.

God STILL intervenes, but he does so with people rather than with Nations. Man has heard the word and chooses for himself. God's Plan of Salavation.

"Consider what the world would look like if it could be fair as we want it to be fair. No accidents could happen, no criminal act could occur, no natural disaster could affect us. That kind of world would have no logic. The natural laws that govern cause and effect would have to be different in every circumstance.

Would God stop carelessness and irresponsibility? Would he stop everyone from being hurt, from coming down with illnesses and diseases? What about death? Would God abolish death? He"d have to, if sorrow and suffering were to be eliminated.

During our entire lives we would be like babies, always under the interventionist eyes of our spiritual parent, God. No longer would we be free to choose, allowed to consider possible courses of action and to carry through on our choices.

We might agree that a world without suffering seems something of a fantasy. However, the question of God"s fairness doesn"t go away easily when we see so much suffering in the world."

http://www.gci.org...

Wouldn't it be nice if you atheists referred to our teachings rather than told us why they are all screwed up ... for a change.

You prefer slavery to free will and its attendant consequences? God does not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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6/7/2014 9:17:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 2:30:27 PM, neutral wrote:
At 5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.

When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?
Never
Right, it was a time when man was wicked beyond belief, and what got them in trouble was largely attacks on God's chosen people: the Jews. The Jews who HAD to survive if the message of God would find root. He gave wicked a pernicious men proof of his power to enable the survival of the Jewish people ... even giving them mana from Heaven when they were faced with starvation.
Now ya don't see how that confirms the Jews claim that they are the chosen race and not vice versa?
God STILL intervenes, but he does so with people rather than with Nations. Man has heard the word and chooses for himself. God's Plan of Salavation.
Salvation from his actions. Good god.
"Consider what the world would look like if it could be fair as we want it to be fair. No accidents could happen, no criminal act could occur, no natural disaster could affect us. That kind of world would have no logic. The natural laws that govern cause and effect would have to be different in every circumstance.
An omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent god can't come up with better than what we've got?
Would God stop carelessness and irresponsibility? Would he stop everyone from being hurt, from coming down with illnesses and diseases? What about death? Would God abolish death? He"d have to, if sorrow and suffering were to be eliminated.
He created all those things is he now incapable of uncreating them? Was he incapable the first time around?
During our entire lives we would be like babies, always under the interventionist eyes of our spiritual parent, God. No longer would we be free to choose, allowed to consider possible courses of action and to carry through on our choices.
That is precisely what he wanted according to your book. When A&E discovered right from wrong all of humanity was sentenced to death. Work that out.
We might agree that a world without suffering seems something of a fantasy. However, the question of God"s fairness doesn"t go away easily when we see so much suffering in the world."
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
http://www.gci.org...

Wouldn't it be nice if you atheists referred to our teachings rather than told us why they are all screwed up ... for a change.
If we are telling you why they are so screwed up, we must of necessity be referring to them.
You prefer slavery to free will and its attendant consequences? God does not.
That's precisely what your book says your god prefers.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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6/8/2014 2:30:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 9:17:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2014 2:30:27 PM, neutral wrote:
At 5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.

When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?
Never
Right, it was a time when man was wicked beyond belief, and what got them in trouble was largely attacks on God's chosen people: the Jews. The Jews who HAD to survive if the message of God would find root. He gave wicked a pernicious men proof of his power to enable the survival of the Jewish people ... even giving them mana from Heaven when they were faced with starvation.
Now ya don't see how that confirms the Jews claim that they are the chosen race and not vice versa?
God STILL intervenes, but he does so with people rather than with Nations. Man has heard the word and chooses for himself. God's Plan of Salavation.
Salvation from his actions. Good god.
"Consider what the world would look like if it could be fair as we want it to be fair. No accidents could happen, no criminal act could occur, no natural disaster could affect us. That kind of world would have no logic. The natural laws that govern cause and effect would have to be different in every circumstance.
An omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent god can't come up with better than what we've got?
Would God stop carelessness and irresponsibility? Would he stop everyone from being hurt, from coming down with illnesses and diseases? What about death? Would God abolish death? He"d have to, if sorrow and suffering were to be eliminated.
He created all those things is he now incapable of uncreating them? Was he incapable the first time around?
During our entire lives we would be like babies, always under the interventionist eyes of our spiritual parent, God. No longer would we be free to choose, allowed to consider possible courses of action and to carry through on our choices.
That is precisely what he wanted according to your book. When A&E discovered right from wrong all of humanity was sentenced to death. Work that out.
We might agree that a world without suffering seems something of a fantasy. However, the question of God"s fairness doesn"t go away easily when we see so much suffering in the world."
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
http://www.gci.org...

Wouldn't it be nice if you atheists referred to our teachings rather than told us why they are all screwed up ... for a change.
If we are telling you why they are so screwed up, we must of necessity be referring to them.
You prefer slavery to free will and its attendant consequences? God does not.
That's precisely what your book says your god prefers.

And you see Ragnar, an attempt to correct one of YOUR statements gets a retard who is apparently so daft and stupid (yet my and every other religious person's superior mind you) who is unaware that God actively intervened in the affairs of men (Sodom and Gommorah, Moses, Jericho, etc. ) and we are supposed to treat this seriously?

I mean when will an atheist step up and converse about WHY that is? I mean why would God side with Israel over a po dunk town like Jericho, with no actual strategic effect, even as Alexander butchers entire towns and razes them to the ground? Why are Roman legions allowed to commit atrocity while Jews are shorn from captivity?

There is an opportunity for discussion there, but, if we engage ... how long before the dregs of atheism interrupt with some off topic BS comments? Or just simple insults?
bulproof
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6/8/2014 5:58:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 2:30:19 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/7/2014 9:17:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2014 2:30:27 PM, neutral wrote:
At 5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.

When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?
Never
Right, it was a time when man was wicked beyond belief, and what got them in trouble was largely attacks on God's chosen people: the Jews. The Jews who HAD to survive if the message of God would find root. He gave wicked a pernicious men proof of his power to enable the survival of the Jewish people ... even giving them mana from Heaven when they were faced with starvation.
Now ya don't see how that confirms the Jews claim that they are the chosen race and not vice versa?
God STILL intervenes, but he does so with people rather than with Nations. Man has heard the word and chooses for himself. God's Plan of Salavation.
Salvation from his actions. Good god.
"Consider what the world would look like if it could be fair as we want it to be fair. No accidents could happen, no criminal act could occur, no natural disaster could affect us. That kind of world would have no logic. The natural laws that govern cause and effect would have to be different in every circumstance.
An omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent god can't come up with better than what we've got?
Would God stop carelessness and irresponsibility? Would he stop everyone from being hurt, from coming down with illnesses and diseases? What about death? Would God abolish death? He"d have to, if sorrow and suffering were to be eliminated.
He created all those things is he now incapable of uncreating them? Was he incapable the first time around?
During our entire lives we would be like babies, always under the interventionist eyes of our spiritual parent, God. No longer would we be free to choose, allowed to consider possible courses of action and to carry through on our choices.
That is precisely what he wanted according to your book. When A&E discovered right from wrong all of humanity was sentenced to death. Work that out.
We might agree that a world without suffering seems something of a fantasy. However, the question of God"s fairness doesn"t go away easily when we see so much suffering in the world."
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
http://www.gci.org...

Wouldn't it be nice if you atheists referred to our teachings rather than told us why they are all screwed up ... for a change.
If we are telling you why they are so screwed up, we must of necessity be referring to them.
You prefer slavery to free will and its attendant consequences? God does not.
That's precisely what your book says your god prefers.

And you see Ragnar, an attempt to correct one of YOUR statements gets a retard who is apparently so daft and stupid (yet my and every other religious person's superior mind you) who is unaware that God actively intervened in the affairs of men (Sodom and Gommorah, Moses, Jericho, etc. )
Do you have any evidence to support these claims? The bible is the claim not the evidence, just so you know.
and we are supposed to treat this seriously?

I mean when will an atheist step up and converse about WHY that is?
Why what is?
I mean why would God side with Israel over a po dunk town like Jericho,
I have no idea what po dunk is, but the walls of Jericho were destroyed by an earthquake 200yrs before the mythical Joshua could have ever been there. Read some archeological studies.
with no actual strategic effect, even as Alexander butchers entire towns and razes them to the ground? Why are Roman legions allowed to commit atrocity while Jews are shorn from captivity?
Once again I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, if anything.
There is an opportunity for discussion there, but, if we engage ... how long before the dregs of atheism interrupt with some off topic BS comments? Or just simple insults?
The insults come from you little fella, the derision comes from me.

What an intelligent and erudite response. Everything went straight over it's head, as usual, so out comes the self perpetuating hate and spittle riddled vitriol.
As usual no discussion from the poor little victim newt.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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6/8/2014 6:00:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 9:17:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2014 2:30:27 PM, neutral wrote:
At 5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.

When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?
Never
Right, it was a time when man was wicked beyond belief, and what got them in trouble was largely attacks on God's chosen people: the Jews. The Jews who HAD to survive if the message of God would find root. He gave wicked a pernicious men proof of his power to enable the survival of the Jewish people ... even giving them mana from Heaven when they were faced with starvation.
Now ya don't see how that confirms the Jews claim that they are the chosen race and not vice versa?
God STILL intervenes, but he does so with people rather than with Nations. Man has heard the word and chooses for himself. God's Plan of Salavation.
Salvation from his actions. Good god.
"Consider what the world would look like if it could be fair as we want it to be fair. No accidents could happen, no criminal act could occur, no natural disaster could affect us. That kind of world would have no logic. The natural laws that govern cause and effect would have to be different in every circumstance.
An omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent god can't come up with better than what we've got?
Would God stop carelessness and irresponsibility? Would he stop everyone from being hurt, from coming down with illnesses and diseases? What about death? Would God abolish death? He"d have to, if sorrow and suffering were to be eliminated.
He created all those things is he now incapable of uncreating them? Was he incapable the first time around?
During our entire lives we would be like babies, always under the interventionist eyes of our spiritual parent, God. No longer would we be free to choose, allowed to consider possible courses of action and to carry through on our choices.
That is precisely what he wanted according to your book. When A&E discovered right from wrong all of humanity was sentenced to death. Work that out.
We might agree that a world without suffering seems something of a fantasy. However, the question of God"s fairness doesn"t go away easily when we see so much suffering in the world."
I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
http://www.gci.org...

Wouldn't it be nice if you atheists referred to our teachings rather than told us why they are all screwed up ... for a change.
If we are telling you why they are so screwed up, we must of necessity be referring to them.
You prefer slavery to free will and its attendant consequences? God does not.
That's precisely what your book says your god prefers.

Well ragnar? How is this relevant to you attempt at bridge crossing? Helpful?
Ragnar
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6/8/2014 1:32:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 2:30:27 PM, neutral wrote:
At 5/19/2014 2:52:00 AM, Ragnar wrote:
At 5/17/2014 8:09:52 PM, Measure wrote:
GOD is love! Not some attribute of GOD.
Inaction? We like to see GOD as dealing with others they way we seem right. But don't look at my faults, but execute judgment on those bad people now. All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.
GOD has given up more than you will ever know.

Why the random all caps?

I admit I did not expect anyone to claim God lacks free will (the love issue), I have no response for that.

The policy of inaction is seen throughout history. Off the top of my head I can name a half dozen atrocities within the last century, each worse than crimes God is claimed to have destroyed whole cities over.

When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?
Clarify? Right now it sounds dangerously close to the very Augustinian theodicy of victim blaming mentioned above. Baring in mind, punishment is commonly defined as "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution."

Right, it was a time when man was wicked beyond belief, and what got them in trouble was largely attacks on God's chosen people: the Jews. The Jews who HAD to survive if the message of God would find root. He gave wicked a pernicious men proof of his power to enable the survival of the Jewish people ... even giving them mana from Heaven when they were faced with starvation.
And the inaction I mentioned was strongly exemplified during the Holocaust, which largely targeted the Jews.

God STILL intervenes, but he does so with people rather than with Nations. Man has heard the word and chooses for himself. God's Plan of Salavation.
This is a talk of Christianity, not any splinter religion. In Christianity the last confirmed prophet of God, was Jesus Christ (yes he was more than a prophet, that does not change him also being a prophet), about 2000 years ago. Claiming God does intervene, but through people, remind me what the Church said about the Holocaust when it was happening?

"[several paragraph quote, longer than the rest of neutral's words combined]"
http://www.gci.org...

Wouldn't it be nice if you atheists referred to our teachings rather than told us why they are all screwed up ... for a change.
Plenty such references in my original post.

You prefer slavery to free will and its attendant consequences? God does not.
What statement have I made, that leads to claims of me preferring slavery? I claim God is not a slave, which Measure found fault with, and you continued the conversation in his place quite awhile after he dropped out.
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neutral
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6/8/2014 1:49:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 1:32:42 PM, Ragnar wrote:

Clarify? Right now it sounds dangerously close to the very Augustinian theodicy of victim blaming mentioned above. Baring in mind, punishment is commonly defined as "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution."

When was the last time God destroyed an entire city? Like Sodom and Gomorra?

And the inaction I mentioned was strongly exemplified during the Holocaust, which largely targeted the Jews.

If their intent and protection was to deliver the message of God, and that message was safe, it makes little sense to treat man exposed to God, and all the children of said God, as a specially select group of people free of the consequences of their actions.

God warned as much even with that protection when he allowed Babylonians to art off the ten lost tribes. Its never been carte blanche.



This is a talk of Christianity, not any splinter religion.

So is that claim.

In Christianity the last confirmed prophet of God, was Jesus Christ (yes he was more than a prophet, that does not change him also being a prophet), about 2000 years ago. Claiming God does intervene, but through people, remind me what the Church said about the Holocaust when it was happening?

The church is not God. A man grappling with the enormity of what Hitler did is not an explanation for why God did not intervene. Should he have? Once that president is set, when should God stop and allow us to suffer and learn? Should he stop ... ALL murder? So there is no longer a need for self defense is there? Because no man can unrighteously kill you. And you quickly see that intervention removes far more than just suffering doesn't it?

Plenty such references in my original post.

No, really there is not. There is not a single link to anything that states why God allows suffering.

What statement have I made, that leads to claims of me preferring slavery? I claim God is not a slave, which Measure found fault with, and you continued the conversation in his place quite awhile after he dropped out.

Because that is the reality of an intervening God. God's Plan of Salvation requires a veil and to separated from God. This is required so that you might Sin. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. In order to learn, we must be allowed to sin ... to fail if you will. To disagree with God. We cannot do that if every time we disagree God flies down and prevents it ... all we can do is follow what HE allows rather than us.

You talk of extreme like Nazi Germany and WWII. That was devastating. But what does choice offer us that is not at that magnitude. The choice of who to marry and accept? The choice of which college to attend, how much stress and pressure to endure to seek a degree or more? These all require suffering to some extent ... and once God intervenes, when does he stop?

With mana from heaven, we see that this kind of intervention is not given lightly. The Jews had to be at the point of starvation before they received help. And they had to practically beg for it. Even for his chosen people. Even to protect his message from humanity, his intervention was grudging at best - he far preferred that man solve his own problems.

And the real trick? How does God stop WWII? By reigning down destruction on German Soldiers? Or the Russians who partook in the purges? Or the Americans who firebombed Dresden? The Japanese who raped and killed their way into China? Whom does he kill? Should he? Does evil beget evil?
Ragnar
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6/8/2014 2:18:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 1:49:17 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/8/2014 1:32:42 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Clarify? Right now it sounds dangerously close to the very Augustinian theodicy of victim blaming mentioned above. Baring in mind, punishment is commonly defined as "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution."
When was the last time God destroyed an entire city? Like Sodom and Gomorra?
Destroyed over lesser offences than those God has tolerated many times over in the last century. Unless you are claiming God worked through people in some plan to commit those genocides (as some claim), this only backs my claim that God has shown a recent policy of inaction.

And the inaction I mentioned was strongly exemplified during the Holocaust, which largely targeted the Jews.
If their intent and protection was to deliver the message of God, and that message was safe, it makes little sense to treat man exposed to God, and all the children of said God, as a specially select group of people free of the consequences of their actions.
And the racism comes out, the Holocaust was "punishment," "consequences of their actions" like having been born to the wrong racial group.
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neutral
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6/8/2014 2:25:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 2:18:31 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/8/2014 1:49:17 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/8/2014 1:32:42 PM, Ragnar wrote:

Destroyed over lesser offences than those God has tolerated many times over in the last century. Unless you are claiming God worked through people in some plan to commit those genocides (as some claim), this only backs my claim that God has shown a recent policy of inaction.

Right, the last century is not the same as four millennia ago.


And the inaction I mentioned was strongly exemplified during the Holocaust, which largely targeted the Jews.
If their intent and protection was to deliver the message of God, and that message was safe, it makes little sense to treat man exposed to God, and all the children of said God, as a specially select group of people free of the consequences of their actions.
And the racism comes out, the Holocaust was "punishment," "consequences of their actions" like having been born to the wrong racial group.

Am I supposed to treat this serious, atheist?

I never once uttered the word punishment. War happened, it happen ALOT. God has yet to intervene since ... couple of thousand years now.

WWII happened because human in leadership positions made policy decisions, man chose to go to war. God chose not to intervene.

Its not punishment ... it stye reality of free will. The Jews are, in the end, just other human being. Other children of God. They were protected when they were the ONLY followers of God on Earth. There is no Nation on Earth that does not have one of the monotheistic religion in these days. Which Nation does God punish? Which Soldiers does he kill? The ones that round up Jews in the beginning? But later see how evil it is and switch to protecting them?

Does he save the Russians from destruction? The same ones who turn around and slaughter a 250,000 Germans from Stalingrad down to 5,000?

Again, the question is where does God intervene without turning the whole process upside down?

Stating that as "racist punishment" is simply not accurate.
Ragnar
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6/8/2014 3:33:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 2:25:29 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/8/2014 2:18:31 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/8/2014 1:49:17 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/8/2014 1:32:42 PM, Ragnar wrote:

Destroyed over lesser offences than those God has tolerated many times over in the last century. Unless you are claiming God worked through people in some plan to commit those genocides (as some claim), this only backs my claim that God has shown a recent policy of inaction.
Right, the last century is not the same as four millennia ago.
So you're agreeing with me?

And the inaction I mentioned was strongly exemplified during the Holocaust, which largely targeted the Jews.
If their intent and protection was to deliver the message of God, and that message was safe, it makes little sense to treat man exposed to God, and all the children of said God, as a specially select group of people free of the consequences of their actions.
And the racism comes out, the Holocaust was "punishment," "consequences of their actions" like having been born to the wrong racial group.
Am I supposed to treat this serious, atheist?

I never once uttered the word punishment. War happened, it happen ALOT. God has yet to intervene since ... couple of thousand years now.
Never once used the word punishment, not even "When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?" http://www.debate.org...
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neutral
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6/8/2014 4:51:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 3:33:37 PM, Ragnar wrote:

So you're agreeing with me?

If the point is that context is different? Of course, it clearly is. Its an easy point to concede.



I never once uttered the word punishment. War happened, it happen ALOT. God has yet to intervene since ... couple of thousand years now.
Never once used the word punishment, not even "When was the last time God intervened in a method of punishment?" http://www.debate.org...

Yeah, the Holocaust was not punishment from God. SO when someone stats that the last time someone God intervened in a punitive action was several millennia ago, and you state that the Holocaust was 'punishment' - you are clearly leaving out several thousand years there.

Again. Why did WWII happen? Because God wanted to punish the Jews? Of course not. It happened because HUMANS, in power, used the combined might of their Nations to make war on one another. They chose that. In some cases they chose for honorable reasons. In others? Clearly those reasons were less than honorable.

Again, you want to be judge of God, so how does God judge? The Russians? Filled with a bunch of people who participated in mass murder during the purges. They clearly deserve to smoten by your standard. Yet they were also brutalized themselves when the Nazi's attacked. Are they villain or victim here? Which does God intervene to punish?

Here is another twist, if you say that innocents deserve to be saved, even for past sins ... noble, etc., then what happens when the Russians begin a campaign of rape as they approach Germany and exact retribution? Culminating in the rape of Berlin (the ladies of Berlin certainly did not cause WWII, Hilter did), and the enslavement of Eastern Europe.

Who is to be destroyed in that moral quagmire?

Man chose it. Man dealt with the consequences. And we are still here with a record to examine and learn from. At no point in Jewish history did God ever prevent War on the Jewish people. They fought their butts off in the OT, and when they followed God's will, they were delivered unto victory. When they did not? They lost horribly. To the point where over 80% of them were taken into captivity and never heard from again. (Ten Lost tribes).

SO I am uncertain exactly what it is that you are asking God to do? Once done ... that is it. Especially in this day an age. God is real. His commands are final. Doubt, uncertainty, and the entire reason for the veil are eliminated.

How is that 'good'?
Ragnar
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6/8/2014 7:10:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You've been caught red handed lying, and in response you continue in a long rant against God; one which never shows the depth of having actually read the original post.

Please man up and accept debate challenges, learn to admit you're wrong (you currently claim atheists are "all single, white males. All roughly the same age."), or go away.
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Mhykiel
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6/8/2014 7:17:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 7:10:18 PM, Ragnar wrote:
You've been caught red handed lying, and in response you continue in a long rant against God; one which never shows the depth of having actually read the original post.

Please man up and accept debate challenges, learn to admit you're wrong (you currently claim atheists are "all single, white males. All roughly the same age."), or go away.

The Atheist white male same age I think is from because from some one using the Nobel prize winners as evidence that the smartest scientific people are atheist. I suggested using such reasoning one could also conclude that the smartest scientific people are also white, male and similar ages.