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Question for theists

Hematite12
Posts: 400
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5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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5/19/2014 7:09:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It depends on the god in question. I'm a Christian and I believe that morality and truth are absolute, based on scripture.

However, again based on scripture, people will not be judged based by absolute criteria. For example, stealing is wrong. Period. But a person who had to steal in order to survive, will not be judged as harshly as a person who stole by pure greed. This still does not mean that stealing is "ok" under certain circumstances.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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5/19/2014 8:41:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

It may not. I think it's possible to have objective morality as long as there's a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator, but he doesn't have to be all powerful or all knowing. It's also possible for there to be an all powerful and all knowing entity and there not be any objective morals since maybe the being doesn't impose any obligations on anybody.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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5/19/2014 9:32:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 7:09:30 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
It depends on the god in question. I'm a Christian and I believe that morality and truth are absolute, based on scripture.


How can morality be absolute? What does it mean that something "ought" to be?

However, again based on scripture, people will not be judged based by absolute criteria. For example, stealing is wrong. Period. But a person who had to steal in order to survive, will not be judged as harshly as a person who stole by pure greed. This still does not mean that stealing is "ok" under certain circumstances.

This is a bit off topic, but you're actually telling me that stealing is inherently wrong under all circumstances?

So I can't steal weapons from Hitler?
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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5/19/2014 9:36:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 7:33:09 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Look at my Sig.

I read through generally.

I would say that a deity is/would be part of nature, for the purposes of the metaphysics/metaethics we are discussing. Just because God is intangible does not mean it gains special properties to bestow morals/purpose that nature doesn't already have.

To clarify, I'm not making a point on moral realism, simply that the existence or nonexistence of a God has nothing to do with moral realism.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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5/19/2014 9:37:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 8:41:36 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

It may not. I think it's possible to have objective morality as long as there's a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator, but he doesn't have to be all powerful or all knowing. It's also possible for there to be an all powerful and all knowing entity and there not be any objective morals since maybe the being doesn't impose any obligations on anybody.

Fair enough, but why is the existence of a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator a qualifier for the existence of objective morality?
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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5/19/2014 10:03:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 9:37:56 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 5/19/2014 8:41:36 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

It may not. I think it's possible to have objective morality as long as there's a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator, but he doesn't have to be all powerful or all knowing. It's also possible for there to be an all powerful and all knowing entity and there not be any objective morals since maybe the being doesn't impose any obligations on anybody.

Fair enough, but why is the existence of a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator a qualifier for the existence of objective morality?

I think that would be a sufficient condition for that being to have moral authority over us. If he created us, then has some claim over us. If he's transcendent, then he's completely other than us. If he's sovereign and autonomous, then he has no authority over him.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Mineva
Posts: 336
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5/20/2014 3:59:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

Religions, just to remind the morality already in you. Human kind is very prone to be affected by environmental factors and easly get used the differences.
bulproof
Posts: 25,218
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5/20/2014 5:37:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2014 3:59:16 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?


Religions, just to remind the morality already in you. Human kind is very prone to be affected by environmental factors and easly get used the differences.

Morality is a survival mechanism that evolved with humans and other animals to one extent or another.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Mineva
Posts: 336
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5/20/2014 7:00:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2014 5:37:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2014 3:59:16 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?


Religions, just to remind the morality already in you. Human kind is very prone to be affected by environmental factors and easly get used the differences.

Morality is a survival mechanism that evolved with humans and other animals to one extent or another.

We can explain with examples more easily. I will explain with my own religion, Islam.

Was sent to the humankind about 1400 years ago, was sent to people who could think and therefore could distinguish between good and evil. Good and evil wont change in time, a morally bad thing will be always a bad thing, a morally good thing will be always a good thing. For example to steal from others will be always a bad thing, its a bad thing because we can think about the "theft" action and we can decide about its positive and negative sides. As I said in my pre-post, humankind tend to change their habits and easly get used to it, even if its contrary to the human nature. Religion comes into play here, always reminds you of your nature.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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5/20/2014 7:06:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 10:03:37 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/19/2014 9:37:56 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 5/19/2014 8:41:36 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

It may not. I think it's possible to have objective morality as long as there's a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator, but he doesn't have to be all powerful or all knowing. It's also possible for there to be an all powerful and all knowing entity and there not be any objective morals since maybe the being doesn't impose any obligations on anybody.

Fair enough, but why is the existence of a sovereign, autonomous, and transcendent creator a qualifier for the existence of objective morality?

I think that would be a sufficient condition for that being to have moral authority over us. If he created us, then has some claim over us. If he's transcendent, then he's completely other than us. If he's sovereign and autonomous, then he has no authority over him.

That makes sense.

This is the most coherent explanation I've heard. I guess it goes into the rights of the creator over the created?
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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5/20/2014 7:13:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

It doesn't, really.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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5/20/2014 7:25:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?

I believe regardless of whether or not God exists, objective morality exists. However, if God exists (particularly the Judeo-Christian God), then objective morality is certain.
Nolite Timere
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/20/2014 7:29:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2014 7:00:14 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 5/20/2014 5:37:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/20/2014 3:59:16 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 5/19/2014 6:14:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
(For the record, I am a theist)

How does the existence or nonexistence of an all powerful and all knowing entity change whether or not there is "objective" morality?


Religions, just to remind the morality already in you. Human kind is very prone to be affected by environmental factors and easly get used the differences.

Morality is a survival mechanism that evolved with humans and other animals to one extent or another.


We can explain with examples more easily. I will explain with my own religion, Islam.

Was sent to the humankind about 1400 years ago, was sent to people who could think and therefore could distinguish between good and evil. Good and evil wont change in time, a morally bad thing will be always a bad thing, a morally good thing will be always a good thing. For example to steal from others will be always a bad thing, its a bad thing because we can think about the "theft" action and we can decide about its positive and negative sides. As I said in my pre-post, humankind tend to change their habits and easly get used to it, even if its contrary to the human nature. Religion comes into play here, always reminds you of your nature.

What exactly was sent to humanity 1400 years ago? Are you referring to the religion of Islam? Do you think that is somehow a "gift" to humanity? How does the terrorism in Islamic religion or any other religion help humanity or morality as a whole?
Religion has killed many people in the name of their Gods. Killing people is the same as STEALING their life away from them. How is that good for morality?
Mineva
Posts: 336
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5/21/2014 2:51:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/20/2014 7:29:46 PM, Skyangel wrote:

What exactly was sent to humanity 1400 years ago? Are you referring to the religion of Islam? Do you think that is somehow a "gift" to humanity? How does the terrorism in Islamic religion or any other religion help humanity or morality as a whole?
Religion has killed many people in the name of their Gods. Killing people is the same as STEALING their life away from them. How is that good for morality?

Not actually, just the media has imposed events in this way and the large part of people is ready to believe without questioning. This is complete a different subject of debate. So this topic will come out fully its intended purpose if I start to go into details about your question. I learned from my father not to believe in the media, he is an ex-soldier and private security company owner. Serving for businessmen in war zones. I have not had the opportunity to know about him so much, but I would say that he is a very smart man.
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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5/21/2014 4:42:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Without Deity morality is subjective and relative, whether you choose evolution or social pressure as source of morality.

For example, few decades ago homosexuality was wrong, but nowadays saying homosexuality is wrong is wrong.
This is red.