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Remorse and Value of Life

CrappyDebater
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2/11/2010 8:31:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Not looking for a debate here, just some ideas and insights. Atheists, Agnostics, Religious of all types, please tell me what you think.

Remorse. Remorse is a feeling like other humanly feelings.

1 : a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

On the way to work this morning I probably killed numerous creatures of various types, whether I ran over them or hit them with my car (insects), or stepped on them on my way into the building (Ants) etc... You could go as far as washing my hands (bacteria)..
Every September I go to California and hunt dove with my father. Killing male and female birds alike.

I have no sickening remorse for these events, and this makes me think.

Why does killing another human cause such remorse?
If humans are just another animal/creature, why is killing a human any different?

If there is anyone in these forums who has killed another human, perhaps in the Military etc., can you also give your thoughts and opinions please? I would especially like to hear from you.

Thanks everyone, I look forward to all the great answers and deep insight from everyone of you. Let's make this a good discussion!
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/11/2010 11:36:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
short version: because we empathize with other people- we know exactly what it is like to be a human and to suffer certain wrongs, and we can imagine what it is like to suffer those we have not had the back luck to encounter.

long version: some myriad of just so stories from evolutionary psychologists as to why such a propensity evolved in us. probably something to do with enhancing cooperative behaviors, which in turn enhance survival. ask an evolutionary psychologist :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/11/2010 11:48:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 11:36:10 AM, belle wrote:
short version: because we empathize with other people- we know exactly what it is like to be a human and to suffer certain wrongs, and we can imagine what it is like to suffer those we have not had the back luck to encounter.

long version: some myriad of just so stories from evolutionary psychologists as to why such a propensity evolved in us. probably something to do with enhancing cooperative behaviors, which in turn enhance survival. ask an evolutionary psychologist :P

Usually because it is something that either A) we did not intend to do (killed a human by accident or out of raw emotion). Or B) we changed our minds about it later and wish that we didn't do it.

Many people have remorse if they hit a bird with their car. One thing about the killing of insects and bacteria is that we don't see it. Heck, when I kill a spider for my wife, if I stop and think about the spider, feelings of remorse will build up, but if I don't think about, no problem.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
CrappyDebater
Posts: 334
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2/11/2010 12:29:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Okay, thanks for the responses.

I would like to add to my original post.

I too feel remorse when I kill an animal, but it varies.
Like, I have no problem smashing a cockroach, or destroying an Ant hill.
It seems like the bigger the animal the more remorse felt, -to an extent-
Like I would feel worse for killing a human than I would for killing a whale.

I know its just a movie, but i think Vigalante shows it rather accurately. Charles Bronson kills the first guy, and ends up back at his place puking his guts out.

I am also thinking, if it were someone you had never met before, and have no emotional attachments too, like a war situation... what thats like.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/11/2010 12:41:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I plan to kill many humans.

Now, if I were to kill someone without cause, and they were human, rationality's the kicker-- I know that I have increased my chances of being killed by means of providing a motive to rational people who fear they'll be the next on my kill without cause list. But if I have adequate cause (i.e. the person was already acting to kill me and thus only those like them, who already have such motives, can be affected-- and additional motivation is rather irrelevant)-- then the video is an accurate descriptor. And I don't plan to kill without cause.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/11/2010 12:47:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't understand it myself.
I find no logic in caring for others feeling except in ways that would benefit me.
I said before that I had psychopathy, that was refuted by some, but it is certain to me that I at least have it in philosophy. It just seems logical.

Can anyone give me just one good reason to EVER act in some way that is not in your self-interest??
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/11/2010 6:08:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 5:58:30 PM, Puck wrote:
Self interest =/= psychopathy.

Ok, Puck, whatever.

Have you gotten my message?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/11/2010 6:09:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 12:47:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can anyone give me just one good reason to EVER act in some way that is not in your self-interest??

Depends what you mean. Do you mean self interest as in, I'm directly doing this to benefit me, or self-interest as in, I do this because indirectly because it benefits me in a way I don't perceive?

If its the first, then yes, absolutely; being "altruistic" in that sense would have a lot of good consequences. I mean, I don't ever have to open the door for another person walking through, but I do, because its polite to do so, and I get a nice feeling out of it. Plus, people thank me, and have a good opinion of me, which furthers my reputation in society, which also has benefits.

If its the second, then you're entering a gray area.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/11/2010 6:13:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 6:08:26 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/11/2010 5:58:30 PM, Puck wrote:
Self interest =/= psychopathy.

Ok, Puck, whatever.

Whatever? That's hardly an argument. Note that caring, even if for one's personal gain (otherwise arguably contradictory) is counter to psychopathy.

Have you gotten my message?

Personality tests? Yes, and replied.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/11/2010 6:20:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 8:31:31 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:

On the way to work this morning I probably killed numerous creatures of various types, whether I ran over them or hit them with my car (insects), or stepped on them on my way into the building (Ants) etc... You could go as far as washing my hands (bacteria)..
Every September I go to California and hunt dove with my father. Killing male and female birds alike.

I have no sickening remorse for these events, and this makes me think.

Why does killing another human cause such remorse?
If humans are just another animal/creature, why is killing a human any different?

ants are like computers, birds are like somewhat smarter computers, people are like people.

We can empathize more with them, being that they're people and have human feelings.

In order to treat them like ants, or birds, you'd have to be pretty uncaring/empathizing yourself.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/11/2010 6:21:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 11:36:10 AM, belle wrote:
short version: because we empathize with other people- we know exactly what it is like to be a human and to suffer certain wrongs, and we can imagine what it is like to suffer those we have not had the back luck to encounter.

long version: some myriad of just so stories from evolutionary psychologists as to why such a propensity evolved in us. probably something to do with enhancing cooperative behaviors, which in turn enhance survival. ask an evolutionary psychologist :P

exactly :))
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/11/2010 6:23:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 12:47:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't understand it myself.
I find no logic in caring for others feeling except in ways that would benefit me.
I said before that I had psychopathy, that was refuted by some, but it is certain to me that I at least have it in philosophy. It just seems logical.

Can anyone give me just one good reason to EVER act in some way that is not in your self-interest??

Caring to is a really good reason, in fact it's the only reason to ever do anything.

Our nature makes us care.

You don't need more reason than that. There is no reason beyond that for anything.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/11/2010 8:50:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Our nature makes us care.

Ya might wanna remove "our" and "us."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/11/2010 9:00:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 8:50:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Our nature makes us care.

Ya might wanna remove "our" and "us."

lol ok... for you and FREEDO the site's "psychopaths" :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/11/2010 9:13:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 12:29:31 PM, CrappyDebater wrote:
Okay, thanks for the responses.

I would like to add to my original post.

I too feel remorse when I kill an animal, but it varies.
Like, I have no problem smashing a cockroach, or destroying an Ant hill.
It seems like the bigger the animal the more remorse felt, -to an extent-
Like I would feel worse for killing a human than I would for killing a whale.

I know its just a movie, but i think Vigalante shows it rather accurately. Charles Bronson kills the first guy, and ends up back at his place puking his guts out.

I am also thinking, if it were someone you had never met before, and have no emotional attachments too, like a war situation... what thats like.

I don't know where this might fit into all this but I have little to no remorse for killing an animal. Any animal. I think I saw a post or thread about this somewhere here. I think it may have something to do with environment /experiences, I don't know.

As a boy we lived a hard life. My father made good money but he spend it faster then he made it. So we had to do what most Americans don't do any more, live off the land. One example. We raised chickens, rabbits, cattle and a dozen other critters that fed us. I can remember from an early age having to go out and kill a pen raised rabbit for supper that night. I got one out, hit it behind the ears with a tire slap, nailed it to the tree, gutted it and skinned it. And size of the animal didn't seem to matter either. I slit pigs throats while they hung. Same with a cow. relationship didn't matter either. If a dog got sick or injured we had the only medicine we could afford, a .22 bullet. I learned very quickly about how deadly a gun could be at a very early age, that is why we never touched one unless we had approval. Could this have had an effect on my lack of remorse now? There was never anything "sadistic" about what we had to do, it was just that, what we had to do. I know people have heard about chickens with their heads cut off. If we lost one after the act we didn't so much as grin, if we did then a heavy hand would make contact with our head and our butts would be meeting the earth very quickly. It was never a joke or funny, it does seem that way to people that have never done these things though. What do you think?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
CrappyDebater
Posts: 334
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2/12/2010 9:50:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
As a boy we lived a hard life. My father made good money but he spend it faster then he made it. So we had to do what most Americans don't do any more, live off the land. One example. We raised chickens, rabbits, cattle and a dozen other critters that fed us. I can remember from an early age having to go out and kill a pen raised rabbit for supper that night. I got one out, hit it behind the ears with a tire slap, nailed it to the tree, gutted it and skinned it. And size of the animal didn't seem to matter either. I slit pigs throats while they hung. Same with a cow. relationship didn't matter either. If a dog got sick or injured we had the only medicine we could afford, a .22 bullet. I learned very quickly about how deadly a gun could be at a very early age, that is why we never touched one unless we had approval. Could this have had an effect on my lack of remorse now? There was never anything "sadistic" about what we had to do, it was just that, what we had to do. I know people have heard about chickens with their heads cut off. If we lost one after the act we didn't so much as grin, if we did then a heavy hand would make contact with our head and our butts would be meeting the earth very quickly. It was never a joke or funny, it does seem that way to people that have never done these things though. What do you think?

Interesting, do you think killing a human would bother you?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/12/2010 9:58:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 9:13:36 PM, jharry wrote:
What do you think?

I don't really see any problem with killing anything (that's not like a person) so long as you're not torturing the thing for sadistic pleasure.

But I think there are varying levels of "like a person" and the closer you get to how humans think and feel the more you ought to respect the animal.

If there's good reason to kill a dog or pig, like to alleviate it's suffering, or your families (like to eat it) then it should be done, though in the most humane manner available.

Plus I look forward to owning my own property and hunting/trapping rabbits and deer and the like :)

I think they're pretty far removed from human feeling (so far as I can tell) and so long as you try to kill'em quick I think it's all good.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/12/2010 4:10:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/12/2010 9:50:02 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:


Interesting, do you think killing a human would bother you?

I don't know. I guess it depends on the circumstances. I would hope that I would have more difficulty, but we can never say for sure until that time comes. And we can't forget that those were special circumstances, animals are for food. It was required at the time, unless we wanted to live off the government. But that wasn't an option either. Who knows.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/12/2010 4:40:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 6:09:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/11/2010 12:47:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can anyone give me just one good reason to EVER act in some way that is not in your self-interest??

Depends what you mean. Do you mean self interest as in, I'm directly doing this to benefit me, or self-interest as in, I do this because indirectly because it benefits me in a way I don't perceive?

If its the first, then yes, absolutely; being "altruistic" in that sense would have a lot of good consequences. I mean, I don't ever have to open the door for another person walking through, but I do, because its polite to do so, and I get a nice feeling out of it. Plus, people thank me, and have a good opinion of me, which furthers my reputation in society, which also has benefits.

If its the second, then you're entering a gray area.

Yes, your getting it, the first. I do nice things all the time for the sake of my own selfishness.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/12/2010 5:33:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/12/2010 4:40:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/11/2010 6:09:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/11/2010 12:47:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can anyone give me just one good reason to EVER act in some way that is not in your self-interest??

Depends what you mean. Do you mean self interest as in, I'm directly doing this to benefit me, or self-interest as in, I do this because indirectly because it benefits me in a way I don't perceive?

If its the first, then yes, absolutely; being "altruistic" in that sense would have a lot of good consequences. I mean, I don't ever have to open the door for another person walking through, but I do, because its polite to do so, and I get a nice feeling out of it. Plus, people thank me, and have a good opinion of me, which furthers my reputation in society, which also has benefits.

If its the second, then you're entering a gray area.

Yes, your getting it, the first. I do nice things all the time for the sake of my own selfishness.

sooooo wouldn't that include remorse for hurting those you care about? soooooo doesn't that make remorse logical and comprehensible?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/12/2010 6:05:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/12/2010 4:40:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/11/2010 6:09:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/11/2010 12:47:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Can anyone give me just one good reason to EVER act in some way that is not in your self-interest??

Depends what you mean. Do you mean self interest as in, I'm directly doing this to benefit me, or self-interest as in, I do this because indirectly because it benefits me in a way I don't perceive?

If its the first, then yes, absolutely; being "altruistic" in that sense would have a lot of good consequences. I mean, I don't ever have to open the door for another person walking through, but I do, because its polite to do so, and I get a nice feeling out of it. Plus, people thank me, and have a good opinion of me, which furthers my reputation in society, which also has benefits.

If its the second, then you're entering a gray area.

Yes, your getting it, the first. I do nice things all the time for the sake of my own selfishness.

Have you ever done something nice for some one that you've never met and have never seen again. And you did it without any one knowing but you and that person?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
PervRat
Posts: 963
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2/12/2010 7:37:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have never killed and probably never will, but there is one person I came very close to killing, someone I had invited in my house to live with myself, my boyfriend and girlfriend (I am bi). While my boyfriend and I were away at work, leaving him home with our girlfriend (yeah a 3-way thing ... the new guy was not part of it), he forced her into the bathroom and raped her.

I'll never forget when I got home. She was very sullen, said almost nothing. She was bruised. And yet, I didn't want to believe my friend could have done such a thing. A whole month went by before I finally did wake up to the fact he had done it.

As I wrestled with it, I began to remember things people had tried to warn me about him, and some seemingly unrelated things started falling into place. He had been abusive, controlling and even blackmailed his own fiance, he had been a serious menace to other friends of mine, and he had taken love letters his fiance had written them and used them to lure another young man, making that young man believe he was actually a woman.

This guy had lived homeless on the street, and I knew he would go on to do to others what he had done to my girlfriend, his own fiance, my own friends and others in his life years before. He could never change his own ways. I felt quite certain that, whatever the consequences to myself, killing him would have been the only way to make certain he could never do that to someone else.

In the end, I cowarded out. He got away with it, as I knew he would. I have no doubt he's gone on to do things with others ... a group of people worked on tracking him, and discovered he had weaseled his way in with a married couple with kids in another state. I already knew he had pedophilic tendancies, having taken a liking to a 15-yo boy I knew.

There have been a lot of times since I wish I had. And that really eats at me, especially given I'm a pacifist by nature. My life, my freedom really doesn't feel worth all the other innocent people he went on to hurt.

I dunno if its even close to what you are looking for ... I'm too much of a coward to actually hurt anyone. But it has been and continues to be on my mind, some 12 years on.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/12/2010 7:45:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'd fake quote you again Pervrat but you said it all.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/12/2010 7:57:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/12/2010 7:37:05 PM, PervRat wrote:
I have never killed and probably never will, but there is one person I came very close to killing, someone I had invited in my house to live with myself, my boyfriend and girlfriend (I am bi). While my boyfriend and I were away at work, leaving him home with our girlfriend (yeah a 3-way thing ... the new guy was not part of it), he forced her into the bathroom and raped her.

I'll never forget when I got home. She was very sullen, said almost nothing. She was bruised. And yet, I didn't want to believe my friend could have done such a thing. A whole month went by before I finally did wake up to the fact he had done it.

As I wrestled with it, I began to remember things people had tried to warn me about him, and some seemingly unrelated things started falling into place. He had been abusive, controlling and even blackmailed his own fiance, he had been a serious menace to other friends of mine, and he had taken love letters his fiance had written them and used them to lure another young man, making that young man believe he was actually a woman.

This guy had lived homeless on the street, and I knew he would go on to do to others what he had done to my girlfriend, his own fiance, my own friends and others in his life years before. He could never change his own ways. I felt quite certain that, whatever the consequences to myself, killing him would have been the only way to make certain he could never do that to someone else.

In the end, I cowarded out. He got away with it, as I knew he would. I have no doubt he's gone on to do things with others ... a group of people worked on tracking him, and discovered he had weaseled his way in with a married couple with kids in another state. I already knew he had pedophilic tendancies, having taken a liking to a 15-yo boy I knew.

There have been a lot of times since I wish I had. And that really eats at me, especially given I'm a pacifist by nature. My life, my freedom really doesn't feel worth all the other innocent people he went on to hurt.

I dunno if its even close to what you are looking for ... I'm too much of a coward to actually hurt anyone. But it has been and continues to be on my mind, some 12 years on.

Like I said, you can never know until the day comes. Your day has come and past, and now you know.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/15/2010 3:18:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/11/2010 8:31:31 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:
Not looking for a debate here, just some ideas and insights. Atheists, Agnostics, Religious of all types, please tell me what you think.

Remorse. Remorse is a feeling like other humanly feelings.

1 : a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

On the way to work this morning I probably killed numerous creatures of various types, whether I ran over them or hit them with my car (insects), or stepped on them on my way into the building (Ants) etc... You could go as far as washing my hands (bacteria)..
Every September I go to California and hunt dove with my father. Killing male and female birds alike.

I have no sickening remorse for these events, and this makes me think.

Why does killing another human cause such remorse?
If humans are just another animal/creature, why is killing a human any different?

If there is anyone in these forums who has killed another human, perhaps in the Military etc., can you also give your thoughts and opinions please? I would especially like to hear from you.

Thanks everyone, I look forward to all the great answers and deep insight from everyone of you. Let's make this a good discussion!

Remorse is an emotion and therefore part of our fallen nature; we may have genuine remorse but then repeat the original offence.
Ultimately it is a selfish response which has something to do with self justification.

Repentance is simply agreeing with God (on an objective code of conduct) and turning to Him for forgiveness.
The Cross.. the Cross.