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Problem of Evil

Romanii
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5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)
Benshapiro
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5/25/2014 1:24:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That's to say if gratuitous suffering even exists.

Seemingly, it does. For what Godly purpose does a person tortured for months on end by a psychopath before being brutally murdered serve? It's pointless evil and suffering. Or at least seems to be.

For me, the problem of evil and the hidden-ness of God in a world that clearly needs him are two of my main concerns.
Romanii
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5/25/2014 1:27:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:24:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
That's to say if gratuitous suffering even exists.

Seemingly, it does. For what Godly purpose does a person tortured for months on end by a psychopath before being brutally murdered serve? It's pointless evil and suffering. Or at least seems to be.

For me, the problem of evil and the hidden-ness of God in a world that clearly needs him are two of my main concerns.

Is your answer implying that we should just blindly accept that whatever God does is right and for the best without any evidence? That seems rather irrational, especially given that the evidence for God isn't super strong in the first place.
Benshapiro
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5/25/2014 1:30:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:27:27 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:24:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
That's to say if gratuitous suffering even exists.

Seemingly, it does. For what Godly purpose does a person tortured for months on end by a psychopath before being brutally murdered serve? It's pointless evil and suffering. Or at least seems to be.

For me, the problem of evil and the hidden-ness of God in a world that clearly needs him are two of my main concerns.

Is your answer implying that we should just blindly accept that whatever God does is right and for the best without any evidence? That seems rather irrational, especially given that the evidence for God isn't super strong in the first place.

No not all. I was saying gratuitous suffering seems to exist and directly contradicts the characteristics of proclaimed attributes of perfect righteousness, judgements, goodness, etc., of God.
Romanii
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5/25/2014 1:31:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:30:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:27:27 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:24:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
That's to say if gratuitous suffering even exists.

Seemingly, it does. For what Godly purpose does a person tortured for months on end by a psychopath before being brutally murdered serve? It's pointless evil and suffering. Or at least seems to be.

For me, the problem of evil and the hidden-ness of God in a world that clearly needs him are two of my main concerns.

Is your answer implying that we should just blindly accept that whatever God does is right and for the best without any evidence? That seems rather irrational, especially given that the evidence for God isn't super strong in the first place.

No not all. I was saying gratuitous suffering seems to exist and directly contradicts the characteristics of proclaimed attributes of perfect righteousness, judgements, goodness, etc., of God.

Oh, I see. Just building onto the OP.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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5/25/2014 1:37:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Unless we humans were able to comprehend God's infinite knowledge/wisdom/power, I don't see how we could legitimately question why things are the way they are. So essentially, its physically impossible for us to evaluate God/his plan, assuming its/he exists.

Does that make sense?
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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5/25/2014 1:46:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Is your answer implying that we should just blindly accept that whatever God does is right and for the best without any evidence? That seems rather irrational...

How is that irrational? Presupposing, as this question does, that the classical all powerful/knowing/wise God exists, doesn't it follow that whatever he ordains is "right", in pretty much every sense of the word?

I mean, in this scope, our personal objections/judgments about God's "plan", would carry literally ZERO logical/moral weight.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Romanii
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5/25/2014 1:48:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:37:14 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Unless we humans were able to comprehend God's infinite knowledge/wisdom/power, I don't see how we could legitimately question why things are the way they are. So essentially, its physically impossible for us to evaluate God/his plan, assuming its/he exists.

Does that make sense?

But how can starving children to death in Africa be for the best? We must be able to come up with at least one logical possibility...
HPWKA
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5/25/2014 2:01:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
But how can starving children to death in Africa be for the best? We must be able to come up with at least one logical possibility...

Unless we have infinite knowledge/wisdom/power (like God), then no, we have almost no chance of coming up with at least one logical/moral possibility.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Benshapiro
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5/25/2014 2:13:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:01:05 PM, HPWKA wrote:
But how can starving children to death in Africa be for the best? We must be able to come up with at least one logical possibility...

Unless we have infinite knowledge/wisdom/power (like God), then no, we have almost no chance of coming up with at least one logical/moral possibility.

So if your own reasoning doesn't allow you to come to a logical conclusion based on what you do know, why should you presuppose God even exists when moral contradictions are evident? It doesn't seem fair to disregard evident evidence of contradictions without evaluation.
HPWKA
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5/25/2014 2:15:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So if your own reasoning doesn't allow you to come to a logical conclusion based on what you do know, why should you presuppose God even exists when moral contradictions are evident? It doesn't seem fair to disregard evident evidence of contradictions without evaluation.

So I'm not presupposing God exists, this forum topic is. Also, what "moral contradictions" are you referring to?
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
mrsatan
Posts: 418
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5/25/2014 2:16:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen an argument against the problem of evil that was even close to decent, assuming the God you believe in is one who has perfect benevolence. Otherwise, the problem of evil isn't really a problem, as it doesn't argue against the existence of God, but rather against the possibility of God having that trait.

I can't say as I know what traditional Sikh beliefs about God entail, so without a description of what you believe God to be, that's the best response I can give.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
klkl47
Posts: 92
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5/25/2014 2:21:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

If God is a word that we use to describe the concept of 'good', than bad must exist or we would not be able recognize the good apart from anything. Ie our existence would have the flavor of a rock.

Suffering sucks for sure, I've been on both sides of it. It's the price of feeling anything I'm afraid.

Who knows, maybe we do enjoy 'no evil, all good' when we are dead. As we all know, no one know for sure.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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5/25/2014 2:37:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.

Hahaha I guess so... but that seems more neurological than consciousy.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2014 2:44:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:37:21 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.

Hahaha I guess so... but that seems more neurological than consciousy.

I haven't seen such arguments used by atheists in debates now I think of it... Maybe I should try it out and see how convincing I can make it...
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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5/25/2014 2:45:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:44:49 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:37:21 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.

Hahaha I guess so... but that seems more neurological than consciousy.

I haven't seen such arguments used by atheists in debates now I think of it... Maybe I should try it out and see how convincing I can make it...

I might end up using it on you in our Devil's Advocate Fine-Tuning debate :P
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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5/25/2014 2:48:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

Different religions will give you different answers. It has alot to do with your beliefs regarding the AfterLife.
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Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2014 2:56:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:45:40 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:44:49 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:37:21 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.

Hahaha I guess so... but that seems more neurological than consciousy.

I haven't seen such arguments used by atheists in debates now I think of it... Maybe I should try it out and see how convincing I can make it...

I might end up using it on you in our Devil's Advocate Fine-Tuning debate :P

Oh right...

Sorry I haven't responded to your message, I don't think I can do it until next week since I am in 4 debates right now..... And one of them I am defending young Earth creationism..... And another I'm defending Afghanistan... And I am so ignorant about it lol.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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5/25/2014 2:58:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:56:58 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:45:40 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:44:49 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:37:21 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.

Hahaha I guess so... but that seems more neurological than consciousy.

I haven't seen such arguments used by atheists in debates now I think of it... Maybe I should try it out and see how convincing I can make it...

I might end up using it on you in our Devil's Advocate Fine-Tuning debate :P

Oh right...

Sorry I haven't responded to your message, I don't think I can do it until next week since I am in 4 debates right now..... And one of them I am defending young Earth creationism..... And another I'm defending Afghanistan... And I am so ignorant about it lol.

LOL. Are you trying to take Wylted's position as Devil's Advocate king or something? :P
That's fine. I'm totally free until like the end of June.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/25/2014 3:00:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 2:58:44 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:56:58 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:45:40 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:44:49 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:37:21 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:35:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:27:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 2:23:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

I think the argument from bad design is a pretty decent argument against God beliefs that hold humans as some sort of special species in God's view.

Meh. I think that's pretty easily refuted by pointing out that consciousness is a more distinguishing characteristic than the body.

There are plenty of arguments one can make about the poor design of human conciousness, lol. Depression, anxiety, dodgy hormones, etc.

Hahaha I guess so... but that seems more neurological than consciousy.

I haven't seen such arguments used by atheists in debates now I think of it... Maybe I should try it out and see how convincing I can make it...

I might end up using it on you in our Devil's Advocate Fine-Tuning debate :P

Oh right...

Sorry I haven't responded to your message, I don't think I can do it until next week since I am in 4 debates right now..... And one of them I am defending young Earth creationism..... And another I'm defending Afghanistan... And I am so ignorant about it lol.

LOL. Are you trying to take Wylted's position as Devil's Advocate king or something? :P
That's fine. I'm totally free until like the end of June.

Zombies, check. Unicorns, check. Next on my list are leprechauns, fairies or dragons.

I think I'll do dragons... Those are cool :-)
CJKAllstar
Posts: 408
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5/25/2014 3:11:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Argument from Evil
(1) If God exists then he is omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good.
(2) If God were omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good then the world would not contain evil.
(3) The world contains evil.
Therefore:
(4) It is not the case that God exists.


I have an issue with the minor premise of this argument, which I believe is the main flaw. The second contention is, "If God were omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good then the world would not contain evil."

I understand the logic behind it. Omniscience implies knowledge of how to stop evil. Omnipotence requires the ability to stop evil. God can and knows how to stop evil. But the fault lies with omnibenevolence, "all lovingness." This argument begs the question about what it means to be all-loving. I'm not an expert on theological debates nor the Bible, but if God is all-loving, then everything he does in the Bible must still be in the frame of that. Such as flooding the world, cursing the world and the issues with Job.

If the Christian god is omnibenevolent, and he did the aforesaid actions, then those actions can still be within omnibenevolence. This means that the definition of omnibenevolence in the Bible is clearly different to what the argument from evil states. As for what it is, a Bible scholar would probably fare better at any thing I try, but the sacrifice of Jesus, the existence of the Holy Spirit, grace, favour, but also free-will, evil and Hell all are slightly related. I see the biblical definition of omnibenevolence as not manifesting in the want for that person to live in perfection, but the want of that person to diligently seek him and rewarding him with favour, grace and manifesting love, but giving the person the free will to truly make the choice and not under coercion.

By this definition, evil can exist on Earth. Evil has to exist for good actions to be "good". Being able to save a life is only useful if it can be taken away. So God created both, clearly, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isiah 45:7. With this, God also gave people free will which includes the possibility to commit evil. They did. As God is utmost perfection, dilligently seeking him is perfect and a God would want people to do that. So an omnibenevolent God would want people to seek him but out of their own will, or else it isn't true. Which is why if there is no hope of this happening whatsoever, and people are living in situations which are horrible, then God is warranted to flood the world and start again, because he is creating new beings who will now be seeking what is perfection.

God is warranted to test Job because Job still sought him, and in the end it was for the better. If people could sin but they were perfect, then they would never have a need for seeking God, which is perfection, so cursing the world allowed them to in the end do what is better.

This was quite rashly written and I would love a response, but in short this is what I quickly thought of just now about the problem of evil. Feel free to ask questions if confused or it would be preferable if you could refute this so I can see where to pick on. But, yeah. This is basically what I think about it.
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." - George Orwell
klkl47
Posts: 92
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5/25/2014 3:40:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:48:19 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:37:14 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Unless we humans were able to comprehend God's infinite knowledge/wisdom/power, I don't see how we could legitimately question why things are the way they are. So essentially, its physically impossible for us to evaluate God/his plan, assuming its/he exists.

Does that make sense?

But how can starving children to death in Africa be for the best? We must be able to come up with at least one logical possibility...

WE need to change it. Why are we always putting off to God that which man is capable of changing himself? I think before the internet...hard to know...but not now. Rather than debate God's existence why not start doing something about what you see?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/25/2014 4:18:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 3:11:10 PM, CJKAllstar wrote:
The Argument from Evil
(1) If God exists then he is omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good.
(2) If God were omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good then the world would not contain evil.
(3) The world contains evil.
Therefore:
(4) It is not the case that God exists.


I have an issue with the minor premise of this argument, which I believe is the main flaw. The second contention is, "If God were omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good then the world would not contain evil."

I understand the logic behind it. Omniscience implies knowledge of how to stop evil. Omnipotence requires the ability to stop evil. God can and knows how to stop evil. But the fault lies with omnibenevolence, "all lovingness." This argument begs the question about what it means to be all-loving. I'm not an expert on theological debates nor the Bible, but if God is all-loving, then everything he does in the Bible must still be in the frame of that. Such as flooding the world, cursing the world and the issues with Job.

If the Christian god is omnibenevolent, and he did the aforesaid actions, then those actions can still be within omnibenevolence.

Or it could just mean that the God depicted the bible isnt all loving. Or that the biblical God didn't actually do those things. Both of which are more plausible than saying God is ominbenevolent out one side of your mouth but he does patently evil things out the other side of your mouth.

This means that the definition of omnibenevolence in the Bible is clearly different to what the argument from evil states. As for what it is, a Bible scholar would probably fare better at any thing I try, but the sacrifice of Jesus, the existence of the Holy Spirit, grace, favour, but also free-will, evil and Hell all are slightly related. I see the biblical definition of omnibenevolence as not manifesting in the want for that person to live in perfection, but the want of that person to diligently seek him and rewarding him with favour, grace and manifesting love, but giving the person the free will to truly make the choice and not under coercion.

By this definition, evil can exist on Earth. Evil has to exist for good actions to be "good". Being able to save a life is only useful if it can be taken away. So God created both, clearly, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isiah 45:7. With this, God also gave people free will which includes the possibility to commit evil. They did. As God is utmost perfection, dilligently seeking him is perfect and a God would want people to do that. So an omnibenevolent God would want people to seek him but out of their own will, or else it isn't true. Which is why if there is no hope of this happening whatsoever, and people are living in situations which are horrible, then God is warranted to flood the world and start again, because he is creating new beings who will now be seeking what is perfection.

God is warranted to test Job because Job still sought him, and in the end it was for the better. If people could sin but they were perfect, then they would never have a need for seeking God, which is perfection, so cursing the world allowed them to in the end do what is better.

This was quite rashly written and I would love a response, but in short this is what I quickly thought of just now about the problem of evil. Feel free to ask questions if confused or it would be preferable if you could refute this so I can see where to pick on. But, yeah. This is basically what I think about it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/25/2014 4:28:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering?
The individual's purpose in this world is not to be happy. This life is a means to a further destination, thus any evil that befalls you perfectly fits with what God intended with your life.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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5/25/2014 4:29:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 4:28:12 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering?
The individual's purpose in this world is not to be happy. This life is a means to a further destination, thus any evil that befalls you perfectly fits with what God intended with your life.

That's... an adequate answer, I suppose.... but it requires quite a bit of blind faith to believe...
Skyangel
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5/25/2014 4:39:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

Some people say God is testing their faith like he did to Job by allowing Job to suffer.
Some people say it is to teach us to have compassion and empathy.

If no one ever suffered anything physically or emotionally, no one would ever need to be healed and we would have no one to comfort or console. We would know nothing about empathy or compassion.
We would also have no need for doctors or psychiatrists because no one would need their services.
We would have no need for medical researchers to discover cures for suffering people.
We would also have no need for police, lawyers etc etc if there were no evildoers or lawbreakers.

So what exactly IS the problem with evil in your opinion?
POPOO5560
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5/25/2014 4:41:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/25/2014 1:11:38 PM, Romanii wrote:
For the most part, I have always found arguments against the existence of God (other than lack of evidence) to be pure BS. However, I've been thinking about the Problem of Evil for quite some time now, and, I must say, that it is beginning to shake my faith in God just a little bit. Why DO people have to endure gratuitous suffering? I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate against any answers posted here to see if any of them actually hold up... Thanks in advance to anyone who participates :)

To know such thing, u must get derict answer from God himself. so where you go? to different scriptures of the world and take your choise....
Never fart near dog