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Religion and the impossible claim

EnlightenedMadman
Posts: 44
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5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.
Check it out! Envisage and I debate Young Earth Creationism.
http://www.debate.org...
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?
EnlightenedMadman
Posts: 44
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5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.
Check it out! Envisage and I debate Young Earth Creationism.
http://www.debate.org...
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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5/26/2014 3:12:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.
I would say that you are absolutely correct.

What is interesting is that just the acknowledgement that an intelligent being may have created the universe is not only acknowledging the possibility of the supernatural, but at least one of the most incredible displays of the supernatural our minds can imagine.

There's just no way around it.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/26/2014 7:09:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

The mind is programmed in many of us to be superstitious. Not knowing what caused the Big Bang, would cause many people to assume a god did.

It was actually discovered by a priest. So without his preconceived religious notions, this discovery may never have been made.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/26/2014 7:21:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 7:09:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

The mind is programmed in many of us to be superstitious. Not knowing what caused the Big Bang, would cause many people to assume a god did.

It was actually discovered by a priest. So without his preconceived religious notions, this discovery may never have been made.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Ohhh puhhleeeease.

We know what the BB hypothesis is.
I've asked what you or EM (in fact) would claim the cause of the BB was if you had no conceptualization of a god concept was?

OK I'll tell you what your answer will be.
The answer that is so frightening that you cannot even view it much less accept it.
The answer is.

I DON'T KNOW.

Why does that frighten you so much?
Oh that's right.
It's hell.
The questioning of even your god's existence is enough to sentence to you to eternal torture. That is enough, surely, to prevent you from answering the question.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/26/2014 7:43:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 7:21:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 7:09:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

The mind is programmed in many of us to be superstitious. Not knowing what caused the Big Bang, would cause many people to assume a god did.

It was actually discovered by a priest. So without his preconceived religious notions, this discovery may never have been made.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Ohhh puhhleeeease.

We know what the BB hypothesis is.

Do you? I mean do you really?
I've asked what you or EM (in fact) would claim the cause of the BB was if you had no conceptualization of a god concept was?

Me, It wouldn't affect any supernatural beliefs I do or don't have.

OK I'll tell you what your answer will be.
The answer that is so frightening that you cannot even view it much less accept it.
The answer is.

I DON'T KNOW.

That's not frightening at all. Even in all caps. It just isn't scary. The only thing man can really know is "I think, there for I am". Even that is debatable and rests on a few assumptions.

Why does that frighten you so much?
Oh that's right.
It's hell.

Hell isn't frightening. Hell would be preferable to non existence. I think your understanding of what actually draws people to religion and keeps them in it is, pretty weak. I'll sum it up for you. It's basically Maslow's hierarchy of needs. There's a few religious people, who become so through intellectual means, but mostly it's a result of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

The questioning of even your god's existence is enough to sentence to you to eternal torture.

There are certain denominations of Christians who believe this, but a thorough studying of the concept of hell within the bible would lead you to another conclusion.

That is enough, surely, to prevent you from answering the question.

What would you think of lightning if you had no concept of god. You'd create the God in your head and call the lightning and thunder Thor.

There is a reason every culture has their Gods. It's because it's hardwired into our DNA, to believe it. So without any preconceived notions, a belief in God would still arrive.

There is a reason why the Catholic Church championed the BB hypothesis. They believed it was proof of their God.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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5/26/2014 8:59:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 3:12:21 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

What is interesting is that just the acknowledgement that an intelligent being may have created the universe is not only acknowledging the possibility of the supernatural, but at least one of the most incredible displays of the supernatural our minds can imagine.

There's just no way around it.

There are a couple things I would like to point out. One is that the intelligence you are positing does not imply "a being", because if it did, then we'd have to ask where the "being" came from. And the other is that what you are referring to is not "the supernatural", but the metaphysical. And I think these are both important distinctions to keep in mind.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/26/2014 9:22:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 7:43:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
What would you think of lightning if you had no concept of god. You'd create the God in your head and call the lightning and thunder Thor.

Thank you for that confirmation.
I couldn't have said it better.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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5/26/2014 12:16:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 8:59:14 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:12:21 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

What is interesting is that just the acknowledgement that an intelligent being may have created the universe is not only acknowledging the possibility of the supernatural, but at least one of the most incredible displays of the supernatural our minds can imagine.

There's just no way around it.

There are a couple things I would like to point out. One is that the intelligence you are positing does not imply "a being", because if it did, then we'd have to ask where the "being" came from. And the other is that what you are referring to is not "the supernatural", but the metaphysical. And I think these are both important distinctions to keep in mind.
If we're talking about a being subject to physical and intellectual maturation, then it would make sense that the being would need a beginning. Other than that, my usage of the word being is just a means of identifying the existence of a creator.

As far as the metaphysical and supernatural, where do you draw the line as to what is metaphysical, and what is supernatural? If an intelligence is able to will the universe into existence (which is the closest we can deduct from the Bible), is that metaphysical, or would there have to be more mechanics involved? What about healing a blind person? What about resurrecting after 3 days? When is it metaphysical, supernatural.....and magic?
EnlightenedMadman
Posts: 44
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5/26/2014 12:17:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

My answer to that would be "I don't know" if I had never heard of a god.
Check it out! Envisage and I debate Young Earth Creationism.
http://www.debate.org...
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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5/26/2014 4:19:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 12:16:54 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/26/2014 8:59:14 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:12:21 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

What is interesting is that just the acknowledgement that an intelligent being may have created the universe is not only acknowledging the possibility of the supernatural, but at least one of the most incredible displays of the supernatural our minds can imagine.

There's just no way around it.

There are a couple things I would like to point out. One is that the intelligence you are positing does not imply "a being", because if it did, then we'd have to ask where the "being" came from. And the other is that what you are referring to is not "the supernatural", but the metaphysical. And I think these are both important distinctions to keep in mind.
If we're talking about a being subject to physical and intellectual maturation, then it would make sense that the being would need a beginning. Other than that, my usage of the word being is just a means of identifying the existence of a creator.

I understand, as we're getting to the point where language runs out of road, so to speak. But it's important to consider the idea that if this metaphysical intelligence "pre-exists, existence", then the question of how begs to be addressed.

As far as the metaphysical and supernatural, where do you draw the line as to what is metaphysical, and what is supernatural?[/QUOTE]The term "supernatural" implies an unnatural effect. And there is absolutely no evidence of such a condition or effect. The term "metaphysical" refers to a greater realm of reality that is NOT antithetical to the natural realm. It's simply transcendent of the natural realm.

The big difference for me is that the "supernatural" conflicts with the natural realm while the metaphysical realm is a deeper, transcendent realm that includes the expression of the natural realm.

If an intelligence is able to will the universe into existence (which is the closest we can deduct from the Bible), is that metaphysical, or would there have to be more mechanics involved? What about healing a blind person? What about resurrecting after 3 days? When is it metaphysical, supernatural.....and magic?

There is much we don't know.

I grasp the 'metaphysical' as being whatever it was/is that is causing order to develop within the otherwise purely chaotic expression of energy. The metaphysical, to me, is the set of parameters that dictate how energy can, and cannot express itself, and from which all existence as we know it, comes to exist as it does. This metaphysical 'logos' is the blueprint from which all 'being' comes. It isn't 'supernatural', it's the 'pre-essence' of the natural.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
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5/26/2014 8:49:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 4:19:33 PM, PureX wrote:
At 5/26/2014 12:16:54 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/26/2014 8:59:14 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:12:21 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

What is interesting is that just the acknowledgement that an intelligent being may have created the universe is not only acknowledging the possibility of the supernatural, but at least one of the most incredible displays of the supernatural our minds can imagine.

There's just no way around it.

There are a couple things I would like to point out. One is that the intelligence you are positing does not imply "a being", because if it did, then we'd have to ask where the "being" came from. And the other is that what you are referring to is not "the supernatural", but the metaphysical. And I think these are both important distinctions to keep in mind.
If we're talking about a being subject to physical and intellectual maturation, then it would make sense that the being would need a beginning. Other than that, my usage of the word being is just a means of identifying the existence of a creator.

I understand, as we're getting to the point where language runs out of road, so to speak. But it's important to consider the idea that if this metaphysical intelligence "pre-exists, existence", then the question of how begs to be addressed.

There's certainly nothing wrong with asking how (that I'm aware of). It doesn't necessarily mean that ever discovering an answer is possible. We pretty much accept that time travel into the past would have paradoxes that we cannot answer for (can someone meet their younger self?.....change the course of history?, etc.). We dismiss the idea of time travel because of the impossible mechanics involved to achieve such an endeavor (and possibly for ethical reasons). But....it doesn't mean that the past and future are not a reality that could potentially be affected by a sort of continuum violation.

So the concept of something well beyond our understanding due to it's paradoxical nature is not out of the question.

As far as the metaphysical and supernatural, where do you draw the line as to what is metaphysical, and what is supernatural?[/QUOTE]The term "supernatural" implies an unnatural effect. And there is absolutely no evidence of such a condition or effect. The term "metaphysical" refers to a greater realm of reality that is NOT antithetical to the natural realm. It's simply transcendent of the natural realm.

The big difference for me is that the "supernatural" conflicts with the natural realm while the metaphysical realm is a deeper, transcendent realm that includes the expression of the natural realm.

If someone was able to will anything they wanted into existence (and didn't know why), would that be supernatural or metaphysical?

If an intelligence is able to will the universe into existence (which is the closest we can deduct from the Bible), is that metaphysical, or would there have to be more mechanics involved? What about healing a blind person? What about resurrecting after 3 days? When is it metaphysical, supernatural.....and magic?

There is much we don't know.

If that person willed an ice cream cone to appear in their hand (including the flavor of their choice), scientists would want to do tests on them. If the person was of a sound nature, and didn't will for everyone to be wisked off into the cornfield, after examination scientists might be able to provide some answers. Or, they may not. And then it would be fairly logical to consider the possibility of the person having a divine gift of sorts.

I grasp the 'metaphysical' as being whatever it was/is that is causing order to develop within the otherwise purely chaotic expression of energy. The metaphysical, to me, is the set of parameters that dictate how energy can, and cannot express itself, and from which all existence as we know it, comes to exist as it does. This metaphysical 'logos' is the blueprint from which all 'being' comes. It isn't 'supernatural', it's the 'pre-essence' of the natural.

But like the created universe that may have been willed into existence (according to the Bible), the ice cream cone would also be very much a part of the natural realm. Scientists can study the ice cream cone that was willed into existence (possibly by divine intervention), and find nothing different about it than anything one would find at a Baskin Robbins.
steffon66
Posts: 240
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5/27/2014 4:42:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

just because you cant think of a better explanation doesnt mean there isnt one. if god created all this then what created him? and then what created what created him so on and so forth. and fyi you are an agnostic.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/27/2014 5:14:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 4:42:00 AM, steffon66 wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

just because you cant think of a better explanation doesnt mean there isnt one. if god created all this then what created him? and then what created what created him so on and so forth. and fyi you are an agnostic.

God is eternal. An attempt to state god must have been created is an attempt to distort a defining characteristic of god's nature. You attempt to establish a straw man argument by applying a non-eternal characteristic to god.

All observation points to the universe being finite and emergent from an uniform state to what it is now.

For a change in state to occur 1 of three things has to happen:

1. loss of energy
2. gain of energy
3. re- arrangement of energy

Sense we are talking about the universe as a whole 1 and 2 are unlikely due to the first law of thermodynamics. Leaving only the rearrangement of energy.

The universe was is a uniform state with no time or spatial dimensions. Meaning the universe would not be able to change it's state from eternally. The universe being in a uniform nontemporal nonspatial state would mean it would need to be re-arranged by an outside agent.

If you claim God not be uniform (unchanging) nontemporal, nonspatial, then you claim The universe can not have ever had such qualities either.

If you claim God can not be in every point of space and time at "once" (quotes for a nontemporal metaphysical interpretation of once) Then you will be claiming the universe in it's singularity state can not be those either.

If you claim God can not be all powerful, consisting of all the possible energy in the universe, then you are claiming the universe can not have this quality either.

So I digress there was a rearrangement of energy of the universe at a moment of no time or space. And it would have to have happened by influence from an outside agent. I consider this a creative act.

2nd. I think therefore I am. As argued is debatable. If I can not prove to you I exist with a logical argument, then I can not prove to you by logical argument my personal god exists.

As atheist, secularist or agnostics must do they have to argue for meaninglessness. There is no evidence a person can give because the methods we use to discern truth are majority of the time inductive. Meaning they measure validity and are not certain. People who want to accept there is no God are forced to the realm of astronomical odds, dreamed up hypothesis even when these dreams are counter to observed facts. They are forced to hide in the what-if and how-so.
bulproof
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5/27/2014 5:31:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 12:17:28 PM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

My answer to that would be "I don't know" if I had never heard of a god.

Now we need to know which of the tens of thousands of gods is being shoe horned into the story and why?
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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5/27/2014 9:01:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 8:49:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/26/2014 4:19:33 PM, PureX wrote:

I understand, as we're getting to the point where language runs out of road, so to speak. But it's important to consider the idea that if this metaphysical intelligence "pre-exists, existence", then the question of how begs to be addressed.

There's certainly nothing wrong with asking how (that I'm aware of). It doesn't necessarily mean that ever discovering an answer is possible. We pretty much accept that time travel into the past would have paradoxes that we cannot answer for (can someone meet their younger self?.....change the course of history?, etc.). We dismiss the idea of time travel because of the impossible mechanics involved to achieve such an endeavor (and possibly for ethical reasons). But....it doesn't mean that the past and future are not a reality that could potentially be affected by a sort of continuum violation.

So the concept of something well beyond our understanding due to it's paradoxical nature is not out of the question.

The term "supernatural" implies an unnatural effect. And there is absolutely no evidence of such a condition or effect. The term "metaphysical" refers to a greater realm of reality that is NOT antithetical to the natural realm. It's simply transcendent of the natural realm.

The big difference for me is that the "supernatural" conflicts with the natural realm while the metaphysical realm is a deeper, transcendent realm that includes the expression of the natural realm.

If someone was able to will anything they wanted into existence (and didn't know why), would that be supernatural or metaphysical?

It would depend on how it happens. The term "supernatural" implies that the thing willed into being occurs in defiance of physical nature, while the term "metaphysical" implies that it happens in accordance with the physics of natural phenomena. We may not understand that phenomena or it's physics, but nevertheless, it would occur in accordance with them.

There is much we don't know.

If that person willed an ice cream cone to appear in their hand (including the flavor of their choice), scientists would want to do tests on them. If the person was of a sound nature, and didn't will for everyone to be wisked off into the cornfield, after examination scientists might be able to provide some answers. Or, they may not. And then it would be fairly logical to consider the possibility of the person having a divine gift of sorts.

I disagree that our ignorance should be taken as evidence of metaphysical, or supernatural feats of magic. I use the term "divine" to imply a special kind of higher wisdom and value, not to imply supernatural feats or metaphysics, per se.

I grasp the 'metaphysical' as being whatever it was/is that is causing order to develop within the otherwise purely chaotic expression of energy. The metaphysical, to me, is the set of parameters that dictate how energy can, and cannot express itself, and from which all existence as we know it, comes to exist as it does. This metaphysical 'logos' is the blueprint from which all 'being' comes. It isn't 'supernatural', it's the 'pre-essence' of the natural.

But like the created universe that may have been willed into existence (according to the Bible), the ice cream cone would also be very much a part of the natural realm. Scientists can study the ice cream cone that was willed into existence (possibly by divine intervention), and find nothing different about it than anything one would find at a Baskin Robbins.

"Divine intervention" implies the defiance of physics to re-create the physical realm. It's not rational that the same intelligence that used natural physical processes to create everything that exists, would then decide to defy both what it has created and the processes that created it to suddenly re-create it.

The God of the Bible is not rational, and irrationality defies the implication of divine intelligence. And the most reasonable explanation for this discrepancy is that the God of the Bible is a human depiction, made irrational by our own projections.
AlbinoBunny
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5/27/2014 9:14:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

If the best explanation we have is one we pulled out of our azz then we don't need to believe it.

My position is I don't know.
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RoderickSpode
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5/27/2014 9:59:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 9:01:33 AM, PureX wrote:
At 5/26/2014 8:49:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 5/26/2014 4:19:33 PM, PureX wrote:

I understand, as we're getting to the point where language runs out of road, so to speak. But it's important to consider the idea that if this metaphysical intelligence "pre-exists, existence", then the question of how begs to be addressed.

There's certainly nothing wrong with asking how (that I'm aware of). It doesn't necessarily mean that ever discovering an answer is possible. We pretty much accept that time travel into the past would have paradoxes that we cannot answer for (can someone meet their younger self?.....change the course of history?, etc.). We dismiss the idea of time travel because of the impossible mechanics involved to achieve such an endeavor (and possibly for ethical reasons). But....it doesn't mean that the past and future are not a reality that could potentially be affected by a sort of continuum violation.

So the concept of something well beyond our understanding due to it's paradoxical nature is not out of the question.

The term "supernatural" implies an unnatural effect. And there is absolutely no evidence of such a condition or effect. The term "metaphysical" refers to a greater realm of reality that is NOT antithetical to the natural realm. It's simply transcendent of the natural realm.

The big difference for me is that the "supernatural" conflicts with the natural realm while the metaphysical realm is a deeper, transcendent realm that includes the expression of the natural realm.

If someone was able to will anything they wanted into existence (and didn't know why), would that be supernatural or metaphysical?

It would depend on how it happens. The term "supernatural" implies that the thing willed into being occurs in defiance of physical nature, while the term "metaphysical" implies that it happens in accordance with the physics of natural phenomena. We may not understand that phenomena or it's physics, but nevertheless, it would occur in accordance with them.

If a higher intelligence/power willed the universe into existence, would that be an act in defiance of physical nature?

There is much we don't know.

If that person willed an ice cream cone to appear in their hand (including the flavor of their choice), scientists would want to do tests on them. If the person was of a sound nature, and didn't will for everyone to be wisked off into the cornfield, after examination scientists might be able to provide some answers. Or, they may not. And then it would be fairly logical to consider the possibility of the person having a divine gift of sorts.

I disagree that our ignorance should be taken as evidence of metaphysical, or supernatural feats of magic. I use the term "divine" to imply a special kind of higher wisdom and value, not to imply supernatural feats or metaphysics, per se.

My point is that if a human were somehow able to will objects like food into existence, and scientists were left baffled as to how it happens, a divine (in the context I mean it in of, from, or like God or a god.) intervention or gifting would mostly be considered by some. Not everyone will completely dismiss the idea among even scientists. They may or may not draw a definite conclusion, but at least not dismiss the notion.

I grasp the 'metaphysical' as being whatever it was/is that is causing order to develop within the otherwise purely chaotic expression of energy. The metaphysical, to me, is the set of parameters that dictate how energy can, and cannot express itself, and from which all existence as we know it, comes to exist as it does. This metaphysical 'logos' is the blueprint from which all 'being' comes. It isn't 'supernatural', it's the 'pre-essence' of the natural.

But like the created universe that may have been willed into existence (according to the Bible), the ice cream cone would also be very much a part of the natural realm. Scientists can study the ice cream cone that was willed into existence (possibly by divine intervention), and find nothing different about it than anything one would find at a Baskin Robbins.

"Divine intervention" implies the defiance of physics to re-create the physical realm. It's not rational that the same intelligence that used natural physical processes to create everything that exists, would then decide to defy both what it has created and the processes that created it to suddenly re-create it.

We defy natural processes all of the time in order to help another human being (bypass surgery, replacing missing thumbs with the big toe, etc.). One could argue that by constantly preserving life this way, we are creating overpopulation. If we do it (and it apparently makes sense), why wouldn't a higher power (God) do the same at times?

The God of the Bible is not rational, and irrationality defies the implication of divine intelligence. And the most reasonable explanation for this discrepancy is that the God of the Bible is a human depiction, made irrational by our own projections.
Wouldn't we be more likely to make God rational by our own projections?

How do you know that the authors of the Bible considered God's actions rational by human terms?
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/27/2014 10:07:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. ...

Oh really! So, pretend I've never heard the word 'god', have no idea what you're talking about. Explain it to me.
This space for rent.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/27/2014 11:05:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:07:37 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. ...

Oh really! So, pretend I've never heard the word 'god', have no idea what you're talking about. Explain it to me.

Explain what to you?
The Big Bang?
Thunder and lightening?
What do you want me to explain?
Exactly.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/27/2014 11:39:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:05:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:07:37 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. ...

Oh really! So, pretend I've never heard the word 'god', have no idea what you're talking about. Explain it to me.

Explain what to you?
The Big Bang?
Thunder and lightening?
What do you want me to explain?
Exactly.

Exactly indeed. Let the record note that you cannot explain god in any way shape or form. Yet you responded to the concept of god. YOU did. Pretty interesting phenomenon, I'd say, and probably best if you find the integrity to research it for yourself.
This space for rent.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/27/2014 11:43:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 7:09:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
...

The mind is programmed in many of us to be superstitious. Not knowing what caused the Big Bang, would cause many people to assume a god did.


Why would you assume God? Why that assumption?

This is Dawin's logical flaw in his cargo gods argument - he fails to ask the question "Why gods"? Why do they make that particular error instead of some other? Why should humans ever have invented the concept of god or why should it be inate, if there is in fact no such thing as god(s)?
This space for rent.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/27/2014 12:16:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:39:00 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:05:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:07:37 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. ...

Oh really! So, pretend I've never heard the word 'god', have no idea what you're talking about. Explain it to me.

Explain what to you?
The Big Bang?
Thunder and lightening?
What do you want me to explain?
Exactly.

Exactly indeed. Let the record note that you cannot explain god in any way shape or form. Yet you responded to the concept of god. YOU did. Pretty interesting phenomenon, I'd say, and probably best if you find the integrity to research it for yourself.

Try as hard as you can to answer my questions.
I know that it is beyond your capacity, but you obviously disagree.

Off ya go now, answer my questions.
EnlightenedMadman
Posts: 44
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5/27/2014 12:32:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 5:31:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 12:17:28 PM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

My answer to that would be "I don't know" if I had never heard of a god.

Now we need to know which of the tens of thousands of gods is being shoe horned into the story and why?

As far as first causes go, why does it matter?
Check it out! Envisage and I debate Young Earth Creationism.
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bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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5/27/2014 12:38:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 12:32:09 PM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:31:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 12:17:28 PM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 3:47:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:15:55 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:13:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Let's do a little role play.
Let's say that you have never even heard of a god. The concept is completely foreign to you.
What caused the Big Bang?

That's a bit of a strange question. If I heard about the Big Bang, how would I not know what a god was? I can't remember a time in history where the idea of a god was totally foreign to mankind.

The question is simple, the imagination necessary to answer it not impressive. Your fear of the answer is palpable though.
Go on give it a go.
You may surprise yourself.

My answer to that would be "I don't know" if I had never heard of a god.

Now we need to know which of the tens of thousands of gods is being shoe horned into the story and why?

As far as first causes go, why does it matter?
Oh so your happy if it's Thor or Odin or Quetzalcoatl?
What makes any of them the first cause?
Or is it Fred Flinsttone?
Do you have a first cause or not?
Romanii
Posts: 4,863
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5/27/2014 1:42:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Causality doesn't necessarily apply to the nothingness that existed before the Big Bang. There doesn't need to be a cause for the Big Bang.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/27/2014 2:12:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:43:43 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/26/2014 7:09:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
...

The mind is programmed in many of us to be superstitious. Not knowing what caused the Big Bang, would cause many people to assume a god did.


Why would you assume God? Why that assumption?

This is Dawin's logical flaw in his cargo gods argument - he fails to ask the question "Why gods"? Why do they make that particular error instead of some other? Why should humans ever have invented the concept of god or why should it be inate, if there is in fact no such thing as god(s)?

I don't know. I think it probably has to do with group selection in evolution. There is benefits to having theistic beliefs.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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5/27/2014 2:17:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 1:42:34 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 5/26/2014 2:08:21 AM, EnlightenedMadman wrote:
A common argument used against Christianity is that in order to argue our position, we must claim to know that which we can't know about the universe.

This, however, isn't true at all for many of us.

As far as the Bible goes, when it says God created the universe, all it mentioned is that God did it; it doesn't go so far as to say what he used or what physically happened to create the universe. That's for us to find out. Right now, the evidence points to a big bang, and I accept it because that's where the evidence points to at the time. You may wonder how I could say the same about God, but the reason I believe God caused it is partly due to the fact that we don't have any better explanation as to what was before the big bang. Abstract objects have no causal ability, but intelligent agents do. It's similar to accepting a theory about anything else before something better comes along.

So if you've got a better explanation as to what caused the big bang and what was before it, I'd love to hear it.

Causality doesn't necessarily apply to the nothingness that existed before the Big Bang. There doesn't need to be a cause for the Big Bang.

No, I don't think that's right. You're confounding a mathematical paradox with metaphysical concepts. Math is full of such oddities, like wireless math involving the square roots of negative numbers.

So time and space go to zero (or unity, if you prefer) at the big bang. That's not the same as nothingness or saying it was un-caused. It IS saying that we have to go someplace that is currently unknown to us. It's one of the things I point out to the emotion-driven atheist - we don't have the option of understanding our origins. A comprehensible cosmos is not one of the options. No matter what path you follow you get to something that is simply impossible by our lights.
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