Total Posts:118|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is killing an unborn child murder?

SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 2:02:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

Clearly a successful if non-medical abortion was performed. Pro-choice should take offense to the terms 7-month-old unborn baby. Baby means born so you can not have unborn baby.

A 15 year old girl was not getting the right medical attention for a 7 month old growth inside her. Being that the fetus was not a person, there is no victim there.

But the shooter should be found for attempted murder / assault of the little girl.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.
bulproof
Posts: 25,298
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 11:20:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I wonder if killing a theist is wrong, considering that the theist will go to heaven?

Allegedly the purpose of their life.

Whatcha think?
SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 2:34:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:20:34 AM, bulproof wrote:
I wonder if killing a theist is wrong, considering that the theist will go to heaven?

Allegedly the purpose of their life.

Whatcha think?

Perhaps you should stop wondering - maybe think about getting a girl friend or maybe an xbox.
SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?
SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 2:41:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 2:02:59 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

Clearly a successful if non-medical abortion was performed. Pro-choice should take offense to the terms 7-month-old unborn baby. Baby means born so you can not have unborn baby.

A 15 year old girl was not getting the right medical attention for a 7 month old growth inside her. Being that the fetus was not a person, there is no victim there.

But the shooter should be found for attempted murder / assault of the little girl.

/* Something tells me others will take your argument seriously (sarc) */
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:24:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?

IMHO this is a silly question. It's similar to asking whether or not a corpse is considered alive just because given a very short amount of time in the past it was alive.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:27:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:24:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?

IMHO this is a silly question. It's similar to asking whether or not a corpse is considered alive just because given a very short amount of time in the past it was alive.

The two situations are quite different.

It's obvious when the person is alive and when he or she is dead in the situation you provided. It's also obvious that the fetus, in any stage of its development, is alive.

The analogy you provide is not sufficient, as we are not concerned with whether or not the baby is alive. Rather, we are concerned with a matter of morality and when a person should be considered human.
SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:35:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So then according to Wikipedia - this baby that was killed is not murder? Is the position you are taking up? Interesting you would prefer to argue semantics and not answer the simple question. IS THIS MURDER?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:41:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?

I wouldnt. I dont even know how you could determine how short the short amount of time is, and what a person considers "Short" seems to be subjective.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:58:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:41:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?

I wouldnt. I dont even know how you could determine how short the short amount of time is, and what a person considers "Short" seems to be subjective.

Interesting.

You are correct in that "short" is subjective. But then, I was asking a subjective question.

I suppose when I imagined "short" myself, I was thinking that it hypothetically refers to a second or less.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 8:08:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

In this case, yes.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 8:18:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:58:32 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:41:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?

I wouldnt. I dont even know how you could determine how short the short amount of time is, and what a person considers "Short" seems to be subjective.

Interesting.

You are correct in that "short" is subjective. But then, I was asking a subjective question.

I suppose when I imagined "short" myself, I was thinking that it hypothetically refers to a second or less.

Well, were talking about this in the context of law, but sure, its a subjective question.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 10:10:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:35:08 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So then according to Wikipedia - this baby that was killed is not murder? Is the position you are taking up? Interesting you would prefer to argue semantics and not answer the simple question. IS THIS MURDER?

Viability used to be 26 weeks, but now premature babies are being born as early as 22.

but despite the advance in medical science to sustain a premature birth, the fetus is still nonhuman, because it is not a person, and it does not show any signs of feeling pain. Just because something has fingers, lungs, brain, nerves, stomach, beating heart, blinking eyes... none of that constitutes human life. No! if it doesn't have it's nerve cells for pain sheathed in myelin yet duh.
Martley
Posts: 126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 10:43:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:10:25 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:35:08 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So then according to Wikipedia - this baby that was killed is not murder? Is the position you are taking up? Interesting you would prefer to argue semantics and not answer the simple question. IS THIS MURDER?

Viability used to be 26 weeks, but now premature babies are being born as early as 22.

but despite the advance in medical science to sustain a premature birth, the fetus is still nonhuman, because it is not a person, and it does not show any signs of feeling pain. Just because something has fingers, lungs, brain, nerves, stomach, beating heart, blinking eyes... none of that constitutes human life. No! if it doesn't have it's nerve cells for pain sheathed in myelin yet duh.

I'll admit... I love your posts, and look forward to them! Where else are you going to a myelin sheath reference!?
A Black Belt is a white belt who never quit.

The best time to do something was 20 years ago.... the second best to do something is now.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 10:54:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:43:33 PM, Martley wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:10:25 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:35:08 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So then according to Wikipedia - this baby that was killed is not murder? Is the position you are taking up? Interesting you would prefer to argue semantics and not answer the simple question. IS THIS MURDER?

Viability used to be 26 weeks, but now premature babies are being born as early as 22.

but despite the advance in medical science to sustain a premature birth, the fetus is still nonhuman, because it is not a person, and it does not show any signs of feeling pain. Just because something has fingers, lungs, brain, nerves, stomach, beating heart, blinking eyes... none of that constitutes human life. No! if it doesn't have it's nerve cells for pain sheathed in myelin yet duh.


I'll admit... I love your posts, and look forward to them! Where else are you going to a myelin sheath reference!?

Thank you I'm glad we can disagree and still have fun.
Martley
Posts: 126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 11:13:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:54:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:43:33 PM, Martley wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:10:25 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:35:08 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So then according to Wikipedia - this baby that was killed is not murder? Is the position you are taking up? Interesting you would prefer to argue semantics and not answer the simple question. IS THIS MURDER?

Viability used to be 26 weeks, but now premature babies are being born as early as 22.

but despite the advance in medical science to sustain a premature birth, the fetus is still nonhuman, because it is not a person, and it does not show any signs of feeling pain. Just because something has fingers, lungs, brain, nerves, stomach, beating heart, blinking eyes... none of that constitutes human life. No! if it doesn't have it's nerve cells for pain sheathed in myelin yet duh.


I'll admit... I love your posts, and look forward to them! Where else are you going to a myelin sheath reference!?

Thank you I'm glad we can disagree and still have fun.

Well you are thought provoking and well studied... I appreciate that regardless of your views. Always an interesting read.
A Black Belt is a white belt who never quit.

The best time to do something was 20 years ago.... the second best to do something is now.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 3:49:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:35:08 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:20:14 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:05:45 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:43:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/27/2014 2:40:36 PM, SemperVI wrote:
At 5/27/2014 11:08:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/26/2014 11:46:05 PM, SemperVI wrote:
Police: Unborn Baby Dies After Pregnant Teenager Shot Multiple Times While Opening Home Door

DUQUESNE, Pa. (AP) " Authorities in western Pennsylvania say a pregnant teenager lost her baby after she was shot four times at the front door of her Pittsburgh-area home.

Police in Allegheny County said the 15-year-old girl was shot when she opened the door of the Duquesne residence early Monday.

Relatives said the victim was recovering at a local hospital, but they and police said the seven-month-old unborn child did not survive.

Family members said they do not know anyone who would try to hurt the teenager.

Allegheny County investigators are asking anyone with information about the case to call them.

A 7 month old baby seems to be on the verge of being viable and can survive outside the womb, so it could be, yes.

Verge of Viability... Hmmmm. What does age have to do with verge of viability? Is a 1 day old fetus on the verge of viability? What makes a fetus a viable fetus? What is a nonviable fetus?

Survive outside the womb.

@semper - "viability" is Roe v Wade terminology for what constitutes a legal abortion. Viable fetuses generally aren't covered by Roe v Wade and generally are considered human beings.

So what is the "Verge of Viability"? At what point does this "Verge" exist?

I took tkubok's comments as implying that there is room for uncertainty. Otherwise, the law of the land is that if the fetus is not viable, it's not a human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So then according to Wikipedia - this baby that was killed is not murder? Is the position you are taking up? Interesting you would prefer to argue semantics and not answer the simple question. IS THIS MURDER?

All arguments are semantics. As it is, according to the wikipedia link, in some states it's murder, and in some states it's not. It's simply not clear, a sentiment which tkubok expressed as well. My own opinion is that aborting a 7 month fetus is ridiculously irresponsible without due cause, which at that point should only be endangerment of the mother, so I would be strictly against abortions in the third trimester.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 3:53:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:27:46 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 6:24:20 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/27/2014 5:14:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/27/2014 4:16:47 PM, tkubok wrote:

Survive outside the womb.

I have a question.

Would you consider it murder if the organism could not survive outside the womb, but, given a very short amount of time, it would have developed to be able to do so?

IMHO this is a silly question. It's similar to asking whether or not a corpse is considered alive just because given a very short amount of time in the past it was alive.

The two situations are quite different.

It's obvious when the person is alive and when he or she is dead in the situation you provided. It's also obvious that the fetus, in any stage of its development, is alive.

Is it clear though? Sometimes, if you chop a person's head off, the body may still be capable of reflexive action, similar to how anti-abortion advocates point to how a fetus reacts to the intrusive instruments used in an abortion.

The analogy you provide is not sufficient, as we are not concerned with whether or not the baby is alive. Rather, we are concerned with a matter of morality and when a person should be considered human.

A human being is alive.
A fetus is not a human being.
A fetus is not alive.

A human being is alive.
A corpse is not a human being.
A corpse is not alive.

The issue of being alive is quite relevant to whether or not a fetus is a human.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 10:35:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 3:53:27 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Is it clear though? Sometimes, if you chop a person's head off, the body may still be capable of reflexive action, similar to how anti-abortion advocates point to how a fetus reacts to the intrusive instruments used in an abortion.

When the person loses consciousness upon having their head cut off, that person dies regardless of their reflexive actions.


A human being is alive.
A fetus is not a human being.
A fetus is not alive.

You don't have to be a human being to be alive.


A human being is alive.
A corpse is not a human being.
A corpse is not alive.

The issue of being alive is quite relevant to whether or not a fetus is a human.

The fetus is alive, and the syllogism you provided doesn't make sense.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 10:56:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 10:35:59 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/28/2014 3:53:27 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Is it clear though? Sometimes, if you chop a person's head off, the body may still be capable of reflexive action, similar to how anti-abortion advocates point to how a fetus reacts to the intrusive instruments used in an abortion.

When the person loses consciousness upon having their head cut off, that person dies regardless of their reflexive actions.

If you're going to use the litmus test of consciousness, you're going to have to prove that a fetus has consciousness.

A human being is alive.
A fetus is not a human being.
A fetus is not alive.

You don't have to be a human being to be alive.

A human being is alive.
A corpse is not a human being.
A corpse is not alive.

The issue of being alive is quite relevant to whether or not a fetus is a human.

The fetus is alive, and the syllogism you provided doesn't make sense.

Hmm...let's try this again.

A human being is afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law.
A fetus/corpse is not a human being.
A fetus/corpse is not afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 11:03:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 10:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

If you're going to use the litmus test of consciousness, you're going to have to prove that a fetus has consciousness.

I am not simply saying that losing consciousness means you die. I was only referring to that particular scenario.

Perhaps a more general "rule" is when the person is no longer able to perform any functions that he or she would normally be able to do. This would not, of course, include sleep, as you are still capable of breathing, your heart still pumps blood, your mind is still working, and so on.


Hmm...let's try this again.

A human being is afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law.
A fetus/corpse is not a human being.
A fetus/corpse is not afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law.

But are only human beings afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law? No. For example, animals have some rights, too.

Regardless, by killing the fetus, you are killing a human that would be (assuming, of course, that the birth would be successfully completed). This is fundamentally different from killing bacteria or an insect, as such things will never develop to be humans.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 11:18:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 10:56:22 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/28/2014 10:35:59 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 5/28/2014 3:53:27 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

Is it clear though? Sometimes, if you chop a person's head off, the body may still be capable of reflexive action, similar to how anti-abortion advocates point to how a fetus reacts to the intrusive instruments used in an abortion.

When the person loses consciousness upon having their head cut off, that person dies regardless of their reflexive actions.

If you're going to use the litmus test of consciousness, you're going to have to prove that a fetus has consciousness.

A human being is alive.
A fetus is not a human being.
A fetus is not alive.

You don't have to be a human being to be alive.

A human being is alive.
A corpse is not a human being.
A corpse is not alive.

The issue of being alive is quite relevant to whether or not a fetus is a human.

The fetus is alive, and the syllogism you provided doesn't make sense.

Hmm...let's try this again.

A human being is afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law.
A fetus/corpse is not a human being.
A fetus/corpse is not afforded certain rights pertaining to life under law.

You might as well be grouping everything that isnt a human being, including skin cells, dogs, cats, etc. I dont know why you simply group a corpse and a fetus together, as if youre trying to make an appeal to emotions or something.