Total Posts:17|Showing Posts:1-17
Jump to topic:

Validity of Stone Paradox?

PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 6:16:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am interested in seeing what your responses are to the Stone Paradox. I'm sure many have heard it, but my question to you is this:

Is it a "valid" refutation to the existence of an omnipotent being (namely, God)?

That is to say, in your own personal opinion, do you find it to be a convincing argument?

Concerning my own, I find it to be silly.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 8:30:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:16:40 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I am interested in seeing what your responses are to the Stone Paradox. I'm sure many have heard it, but my question to you is this:

Is it a "valid" refutation to the existence of an omnipotent being (namely, God)?

That is to say, in your own personal opinion, do you find it to be a convincing argument?

Concerning my own, I find it to be silly.

It is definitely silly. Just a mildly amusing hypothetical based on the semantics of the word "omnipotent".
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 9:03:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's invalid because it ignores the fact that omnipotence does not mean the ability to do that which is logically impossible. It'd be logically impossible to create a stone that God was not sovereign over, as he would be the most perfect being in existence.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.
Chimera
Posts: 178
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 10:21:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But if God can't create this stone, then he isn't omnipotent either. Since he is supposed to be all powerful, he should be able to make this stone that would limit his omnipotence, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 10:29:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:21:22 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But if God can't create this stone, then he isn't omnipotent either. Since he is supposed to be all powerful, he should be able to make this stone that would limit his omnipotence, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Well the definition of omnipotence is "all powerful." Creating a rock too big to lift is doing something that would make God not all powerful. Since God can't not be all powerful he can't create a rock too big for him to lift. God also cannot sin (be imperfect) but this doesn't make him not omnipotent.

To an all-powerful being (not conditionally all powerful):

Limit your power via (X)
Or
Limit your power via (X)

It is impossible given that it is self-contradictory.
Chimera
Posts: 178
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 10:59:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:29:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:21:22 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But if God can't create this stone, then he isn't omnipotent either. Since he is supposed to be all powerful, he should be able to make this stone that would limit his omnipotence, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Well the definition of omnipotence is "all powerful." Creating a rock too big to lift is doing something that would make God not all powerful. Since God can't not be all powerful he can't create a rock too big for him to lift. God also cannot sin (be imperfect) but this doesn't make him not omnipotent.


To an all-powerful being (not conditionally all powerful):

Limit your power via (X)
Or
Limit your power via (X)

It is impossible given that it is self-contradictory.

This is the point of the paradox: God can neither create this stone, nor not create this stone. Because by doing either, he is not omnipotent.

If God creates this stone, but he cannot lift it, he isn't omnipotent.

If he can't create this stone, then his power is limited, meaning he is not omnipotent.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 11:15:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Its a pretty bad objection.

Can God make green sleep faster than Tuesday?

"His omnipotence means the power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. There is no limit to His power.

If you choose to say, 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prifex to them the two other words, 'God can.'

It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God."

-- c.s. lewis
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/27/2014 11:20:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:59:29 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:29:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:21:22 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But if God can't create this stone, then he isn't omnipotent either. Since he is supposed to be all powerful, he should be able to make this stone that would limit his omnipotence, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Well the definition of omnipotence is "all powerful." Creating a rock too big to lift is doing something that would make God not all powerful. Since God can't not be all powerful he can't create a rock too big for him to lift. God also cannot sin (be imperfect) but this doesn't make him not omnipotent.


To an all-powerful being (not conditionally all powerful):

Limit your power via (X)
Or
Limit your power via (X)

It is impossible given that it is self-contradictory.

This is the point of the paradox: God can neither create this stone, nor not create this stone. Because by doing either, he is not omnipotent.

If God creates this stone, but he cannot lift it, he isn't omnipotent.

If he can't create this stone, then his power is limited, meaning he is not omnipotent.

Which is why he can't create it because then he wouldn't be omnipotent. Also, remember that God can't sin. He can never lie. By proclaiming that he is omnipotent and he does something that limits his power, in the process he would sin because it'd be a lie that he is omniscient. God cannot sin and therefore cannot do anything to limit his power.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 12:46:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As I am pretty sure you are a Christian, I will address it as such.

At 5/27/2014 11:20:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Which is why he can't create it

God CAN'T create it = not all powerful = not omnipotent

because then he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Not being able to make it also means he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Also, remember that God can't sin.

Why?
The common "10 commandments" includes killing as a sin. Let us look at the kill count!

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

Biblical numbers only is over 2 million, estimation is over 20 million.

He can never lie.

Really?
Genesis 2:15-17 "And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE."

He did not die in the day he "eatest" from the fruit.

Also, here:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

By proclaiming that he is omnipotent and he does something that limits his power, in the process he would sin because it'd be a lie that he is omniscient. God cannot sin and therefore cannot do anything to limit his power.

If God cannot sin he is not omnipotent. He also sinned A LOT in the Old Testament. God also lies, so that doesn't seem to be a problem for him either.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 1:45:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In order to be omnipotent, God cannot violate logic, because then God wouldn't be God (X wouldn't be X). In any case, we can simply redefine omnipotence as "the ability to do all possible actions". If God is omnipotent, then "creating a stone so heavy even God cannot life it" is not a possible action.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 2:04:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:16:40 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I am interested in seeing what your responses are to the Stone Paradox. I'm sure many have heard it, but my question to you is this:

Is it a "valid" refutation to the existence of an omnipotent being (namely, God)?

That is to say, in your own personal opinion, do you find it to be a convincing argument?

Concerning my own, I find it to be silly.

I think it is silly. Of course God can make stone that he can"t lift. If he after that wants to lift it, he can create more power to him so that he can lift it.

But actually that question is same as, can God give up his power. And the answer is yes. After he has given up his power, he is not all powerful. And I think no one is claiming that God would be all powerful after he ahs given up that feature.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 2:39:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 6:16:40 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I am interested in seeing what your responses are to the Stone Paradox. I'm sure many have heard it, but my question to you is this:

Is it a "valid" refutation to the existence of an omnipotent being (namely, God)?

That is to say, in your own personal opinion, do you find it to be a convincing argument?

Concerning my own, I find it to be silly.

As an agnostic, I find it silly, also. First, why would anything omnipotent even concern itself with creating something outside of its own power to manipulate? Whether one could, or not, is irrelevant. The fundamental answer to the question is, "No." No omnipotent being could create any object that it could not subsequently move. If an omnipotent being can create it, it can move it. This does not, in any way, diminish its omnipotence, since the paradox of being able to do it is, indeed, quite meaningless. It's much like the book of lists:

A complete list of all books that are NOT self-referencing would be incomplete without listing itself, but false as soon as it lists itself. What, however, is the use of such a list? For me, it's almost like asking if an omnipotent eternal being (gawd) could kill itself.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 2:50:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 12:46:58 PM, SNP1 wrote:
As I am pretty sure you are a Christian, I will address it as such.

At 5/27/2014 11:20:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Which is why he can't create it

God CAN'T create it = not all powerful = not omnipotent

Right because if he did then he wouldn't be omnipotent and God isn't conditionally omnipotent. Whether or not he has the power to do this action without actualizing it, I don't know.

because then he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Not being able to make it also means he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Also, remember that God can't sin.

Why?
The common "10 commandments" includes killing as a sin. Let us look at the kill count!

The commandment is against murder, not killing.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

Biblical numbers only is over 2 million, estimation is over 20 million.

He can never lie.

Really?
Genesis 2:15-17 "And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE."

He did not die in the day he "eatest" from the fruit.

Where is the lie? In the day he partook of the fruit is the day he doomed himself to die.

Also, here:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

By proclaiming that he is omnipotent and he does something that limits his power, in the process he would sin because it'd be a lie that he is omniscient. God cannot sin and therefore cannot do anything to limit his power.

If God cannot sin he is not omnipotent. He also sinned A LOT in the Old Testament. God also lies, so that doesn't seem to be a problem for him either.

God is equally omnibenevolent. Being all powerful doesn't entail the power to do things against an equally all loving nature. I haven't seen any evidence of God sinning in the old testament.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 4:13:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:21:22 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But if God can't create this stone, then he isn't omnipotent either. Since he is supposed to be all powerful, he should be able to make this stone that would limit his omnipotence, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent.

God transcends concepts such as contradiction or logic. Trying to limit him with a finite argument from a finite mind is impossible, as he is an infinite being.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/28/2014 6:20:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/27/2014 10:59:29 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:29:16 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 5/27/2014 10:21:22 PM, Chimera wrote:
At 5/27/2014 9:42:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
It God could do something that limits his power he would not be omnipotent. Therefore he cannot create a stone too big to lift because if he could, he wouldn't be omnipotent.

But if God can't create this stone, then he isn't omnipotent either. Since he is supposed to be all powerful, he should be able to make this stone that would limit his omnipotence, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent.

Well the definition of omnipotence is "all powerful." Creating a rock too big to lift is doing something that would make God not all powerful. Since God can't not be all powerful he can't create a rock too big for him to lift. God also cannot sin (be imperfect) but this doesn't make him not omnipotent.


To an all-powerful being (not conditionally all powerful):

Limit your power via (X)
Or
Limit your power via (X)

It is impossible given that it is self-contradictory.

This is the point of the paradox: God can neither create this stone, nor not create this stone. Because by doing either, he is not omnipotent.

If God creates this stone, but he cannot lift it, he isn't omnipotent.

If he can't create this stone, then his power is limited, meaning he is not omnipotent.

Following the logic of the question, the answer would be: Yes, God could create a stone so big he could not lift ... and then lift it.