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Ignorant Goat herder's?

matt.mcguire88
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5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

Here are a few basic truths about some of the individuals in the Bible, some that stand out to me that I admire in no particular order, for the sake of time and space I'll name just a few...

Isaiah-
One of the most notable Prophets in all Judaism, a member of the Royal family.
Aside from his passion in his prophetic calling Isaiah was an active, respected political figure with an unwavering conviction against government corruption as well as spiritual destruction.
In his honest and straight forward character he had no fear of confronting adversity to establish truth and righteousness.
His political favor did not deter his convictions and he was known for attacking upper ruling classes in defense and support of the common people, for equality and fairness.
Not only was Isaiah fierce and steadfast in his beliefs, he was also a father of two and husband of the "prophetess", his own father's (Amoz) reputation was of noble descent.

Isaiah is known for his prophesies of warnings and hope for the people, the comming of the Messiah and the tyranny of Government. He was extremely passionate and vibrant in his his beliefs and very well written for his time.

Isaiah was murdered, sawed into two pieces.

Moses-
Former Prince of Egypt and notably the most important Prophet in Judaism, a leader and teacher of many and of a great Nation, Moses was taught the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Despite the reluctance to be a leader and speaker, Moses resumed great courage and faith to overcome self doubt and lack of confidence to become the father of a resilient Nation and a timeless belief in God.
The actions and humble character of Moses led him away from wealth, popularity and political favor to birth some of the most memorable and distinguished events in our history. It gave rise to one of the greatest Mono theistic beliefs that have ever existed.

His faith and belief in God were arguably the most important roles in the knowledge of the Creator as we know Him.

Daniel-
A well known educated man and major Prophet of the Old and remnants of the New test. Of Royal lineage and a survivor of Babylonian captivity he was favored for his uncommon abilities and wisdom.
Daniel, of great courage and faith was a faithful and obedient servant of God as well as attaining a high position in Government for 70 years. He also was unafraid of adversity and undeterred by political rivals, even in the face of lions to stay true to integrity, truth and righteousness.

Daniel remained true to his convictions despite great odds and sobering obstacles and became a prominent figure both spiritually and politically.. His fearless, creative and inspirational qualities not only attributed to his success in his position as governor, but a legacy and admiration that would last centuries.

Jesus Christ-
No need for introduction,
Arguably one of the most influential political and spiritual advisors to have ever graced this earth. His undying love and passion would and will go on to affect and inspire more Humans than perhaps anyone, ever.

He was murdered. Whipped, beaten, hung on nails and tortured. He willingly dominated fear and covered a multitude of evil.

Apostle Paul-
A highly educated and prominent political speaker and spiritual mentor. Paul, is recognizably one of the most important figures in all of Christianity, next to Christ.
"Saul" was born into a financially successful and highly esteemed family. He was both well known in political and religious affairs and his reputation preceded him.

Paul's loyal, radical and honest attributes paved the way to one of the most known "conversions" in all of history. A conversion that would face undeniable rejection and persecution.
Despite the beatings, imprisonment, starvation and treatment like most of us will never suffer Paul went on to write a series of epistles that reflected great passion, courage and love that would radiate, convict and instruct many and endure generations to come.

The Apostles lifestyle represents unbelievable inner strength and resilience, while having nothing to gain and everything to lose he chose truth.
With no motivation of greed, money or control he followed his devotion to God for the benefit of the people even unto death.

Paul was murdered, most likely beheaded.

The list goes on, Abraham, John the Baptist, Noah ect.....

Despite the general secular opinion regarding people of the Bible, I would say the actions, legacy and motivations left from a people of a ruthless and unsure existence speak for them selves. They were no more ignorant than the people thousands of years from now will think looking at what we did. For their time, these were honorable and dedicated individuals.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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5/29/2014 7:41:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

Here are a few basic truths about some of the individuals in the Bible, some that stand out to me that I admire in no particular order, for the sake of time and space I'll name just a few...

Isaiah-
One of the most notable Prophets in all Judaism, a member of the Royal family.
Aside from his passion in his prophetic calling Isaiah was an active, respected political figure with an unwavering conviction against government corruption as well as spiritual destruction.
In his honest and straight forward character he had no fear of confronting adversity to establish truth and righteousness.
His political favor did not deter his convictions and he was known for attacking upper ruling classes in defense and support of the common people, for equality and fairness.
Not only was Isaiah fierce and steadfast in his beliefs, he was also a father of two and husband of the "prophetess", his own father's (Amoz) reputation was of noble descent.

Isaiah is known for his prophesies of warnings and hope for the people, the comming of the Messiah and the tyranny of Government. He was extremely passionate and vibrant in his his beliefs and very well written for his time.

Isaiah was murdered, sawed into two pieces.

Moses-
Former Prince of Egypt and notably the most important Prophet in Judaism, a leader and teacher of many and of a great Nation, Moses was taught the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Despite the reluctance to be a leader and speaker, Moses resumed great courage and faith to overcome self doubt and lack of confidence to become the father of a resilient Nation and a timeless belief in God.
The actions and humble character of Moses led him away from wealth, popularity and political favor to birth some of the most memorable and distinguished events in our history. It gave rise to one of the greatest Mono theistic beliefs that have ever existed.

His faith and belief in God were arguably the most important roles in the knowledge of the Creator as we know Him.

Daniel-
A well known educated man and major Prophet of the Old and remnants of the New test. Of Royal lineage and a survivor of Babylonian captivity he was favored for his uncommon abilities and wisdom.
Daniel, of great courage and faith was a faithful and obedient servant of God as well as attaining a high position in Government for 70 years. He also was unafraid of adversity and undeterred by political rivals, even in the face of lions to stay true to integrity, truth and righteousness.

Daniel remained true to his convictions despite great odds and sobering obstacles and became a prominent figure both spiritually and politically.. His fearless, creative and inspirational qualities not only attributed to his success in his position as governor, but a legacy and admiration that would last centuries.

Jesus Christ-
No need for introduction,
Arguably one of the most influential political and spiritual advisors to have ever graced this earth. His undying love and passion would and will go on to affect and inspire more Humans than perhaps anyone, ever.

He was murdered. Whipped, beaten, hung on nails and tortured. He willingly dominated fear and covered a multitude of evil.

Apostle Paul-
A highly educated and prominent political speaker and spiritual mentor. Paul, is recognizably one of the most important figures in all of Christianity, next to Christ.
"Saul" was born into a financially successful and highly esteemed family. He was both well known in political and religious affairs and his reputation preceded him.

Paul's loyal, radical and honest attributes paved the way to one of the most known "conversions" in all of history. A conversion that would face undeniable rejection and persecution.
Despite the beatings, imprisonment, starvation and treatment like most of us will never suffer Paul went on to write a series of epistles that reflected great passion, courage and love that would radiate, convict and instruct many and endure generations to come.

The Apostles lifestyle represents unbelievable inner strength and resilience, while having nothing to gain and everything to lose he chose truth.
With no motivation of greed, money or control he followed his devotion to God for the benefit of the people even unto death.

Paul was murdered, most likely beheaded.

The list goes on, Abraham, John the Baptist, Noah ect.....

Despite the general secular opinion regarding people of the Bible, I would say the actions, legacy and motivations left from a people of a ruthless and unsure existence speak for them selves. They were no more ignorant than the people thousands of years from now will think looking at what we did. For their time, these were honorable and dedicated individuals.

Do you have anything ex-biblical evidence that any of these characters ever existed?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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5/29/2014 10:36:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 7:41:13 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

Here are a few basic truths about some of the individuals in the Bible, some that stand out to me that I admire in no particular order, for the sake of time and space I'll name just a few...

Isaiah-
One of the most notable Prophets in all Judaism, a member of the Royal family.
Aside from his passion in his prophetic calling Isaiah was an active, respected political figure with an unwavering conviction against government corruption as well as spiritual destruction.
In his honest and straight forward character he had no fear of confronting adversity to establish truth and righteousness.
His political favor did not deter his convictions and he was known for attacking upper ruling classes in defense and support of the common people, for equality and fairness.
Not only was Isaiah fierce and steadfast in his beliefs, he was also a father of two and husband of the "prophetess", his own father's (Amoz) reputation was of noble descent.

Isaiah is known for his prophesies of warnings and hope for the people, the comming of the Messiah and the tyranny of Government. He was extremely passionate and vibrant in his his beliefs and very well written for his time.

Isaiah was murdered, sawed into two pieces.

Moses-
Former Prince of Egypt and notably the most important Prophet in Judaism, a leader and teacher of many and of a great Nation, Moses was taught the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Despite the reluctance to be a leader and speaker, Moses resumed great courage and faith to overcome self doubt and lack of confidence to become the father of a resilient Nation and a timeless belief in God.
The actions and humble character of Moses led him away from wealth, popularity and political favor to birth some of the most memorable and distinguished events in our history. It gave rise to one of the greatest Mono theistic beliefs that have ever existed.

His faith and belief in God were arguably the most important roles in the knowledge of the Creator as we know Him.

Daniel-
A well known educated man and major Prophet of the Old and remnants of the New test. Of Royal lineage and a survivor of Babylonian captivity he was favored for his uncommon abilities and wisdom.
Daniel, of great courage and faith was a faithful and obedient servant of God as well as attaining a high position in Government for 70 years. He also was unafraid of adversity and undeterred by political rivals, even in the face of lions to stay true to integrity, truth and righteousness.

Daniel remained true to his convictions despite great odds and sobering obstacles and became a prominent figure both spiritually and politically.. His fearless, creative and inspirational qualities not only attributed to his success in his position as governor, but a legacy and admiration that would last centuries.

Jesus Christ-
No need for introduction,
Arguably one of the most influential political and spiritual advisors to have ever graced this earth. His undying love and passion would and will go on to affect and inspire more Humans than perhaps anyone, ever.

He was murdered. Whipped, beaten, hung on nails and tortured. He willingly dominated fear and covered a multitude of evil.

Apostle Paul-
A highly educated and prominent political speaker and spiritual mentor. Paul, is recognizably one of the most important figures in all of Christianity, next to Christ.
"Saul" was born into a financially successful and highly esteemed family. He was both well known in political and religious affairs and his reputation preceded him.

Paul's loyal, radical and honest attributes paved the way to one of the most known "conversions" in all of history. A conversion that would face undeniable rejection and persecution.
Despite the beatings, imprisonment, starvation and treatment like most of us will never suffer Paul went on to write a series of epistles that reflected great passion, courage and love that would radiate, convict and instruct many and endure generations to come.

The Apostles lifestyle represents unbelievable inner strength and resilience, while having nothing to gain and everything to lose he chose truth.
With no motivation of greed, money or control he followed his devotion to God for the benefit of the people even unto death.

Paul was murdered, most likely beheaded.

The list goes on, Abraham, John the Baptist, Noah ect.....

Despite the general secular opinion regarding people of the Bible, I would say the actions, legacy and motivations left from a people of a ruthless and unsure existence speak for them selves. They were no more ignorant than the people thousands of years from now will think looking at what we did. For their time, these were honorable and dedicated individuals.

Do you have anything ex-biblical evidence that any of these characters ever existed?

Despite the fact that Isaiah, Daniel and Paul are thought to be participants themselves in the writings the OP remains the same.
Are they ignorant and why? Whether fictional characters or real people the question remains the same, why are such influential people who lived thousands of years ago considered ignorant and why are they being categorized as such? on what basis....
matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 10:37:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 9:00:41 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Yoda and Harry Potter are pretty cool guys, too.

Not my favorites and that's for another topic, the topic is expressed in the OP.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,476
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5/29/2014 10:48:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 10:37:47 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 9:00:41 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Yoda and Harry Potter are pretty cool guys, too.

Not my favorites and that's for another topic, the topic is expressed in the OP.

And I've recently learned from a guy name VanderLaan how Israel sat on the major trade routes of the ancient world. It was more Baltimore or NYC than the rural outback many people imagine. I see pictures of mini-Parthenon's and things like that in Israel and say "How come I never knew about this?" Herod's temple - it was Red Square or Tienanmen square of it's day. Millions of pilgrims came for the feasts, millions, from all over the east - from modern day Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Italy, etc.
This space for rent.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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5/29/2014 10:53:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

The point is that the stories were made up by "ignorant goat herders". The characters in the stories were the claims of the infamous IGHs.

*I'm not interested in getting into the historical tangent on this, so to clarify; whether there were real people that the stories were based on or not is irrelevant. The important factor is whether they were as described and did the things reported. "There was a guy called Jesus and he was an alright bloke" is not a claim most people feel the need to question. "There was a guy called Jesus and he could do magic", however, is a different kettle of thinly-spread fish.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 10:53:29 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

The point is that the stories were made up by "ignorant goat herders". The characters in the stories were the claims of the infamous IGHs.

*I'm not interested in getting into the historical tangent on this, so to clarify; whether there were real people that the stories were based on or not is irrelevant. The important factor is whether they were as described and did the things reported. "There was a guy called Jesus and he was an alright bloke" is not a claim most people feel the need to question. "There was a guy called Jesus and he could do magic", however, is a different kettle of thinly-spread fish.

Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence. Have you read any of the books I mentioned by the authors? It should be pretty clear regardless of whether or not you actually believe it that these writers were not ignorant.
Obviously I'm not going to be able to convince you of any reality within the scriptures lol, so that's not really what I was aiming for.
However, coming from a secular or material point of view, I can see how all of the spiritual meaning and knowledge is lost, and that is where it counts most.
matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 11:12:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 10:48:05 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 5/29/2014 10:37:47 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 9:00:41 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Yoda and Harry Potter are pretty cool guys, too.

Not my favorites and that's for another topic, the topic is expressed in the OP.

And I've recently learned from a guy name VanderLaan how Israel sat on the major trade routes of the ancient world. It was more Baltimore or NYC than the rural outback many people imagine. I see pictures of mini-Parthenon's and things like that in Israel and say "How come I never knew about this?" Herod's temple - it was Red Square or Tienanmen square of it's day. Millions of pilgrims came for the feasts, millions, from all over the east - from modern day Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Italy, etc.

that's funny :D
Graincruncher
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5/29/2014 11:17:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence.

Well ignorance is a relative measure, isn't it? They may have been relatively well-informed for their time, but still ignorant of huge amounts of stuff that we now consider fairly basic knowledge. Many great intellects throughout history have been ignorant of such things. The further back you go, the less advances had been made and the greater the relative 'ignorance gap' becomes.

However, coming from a secular or material point of view, I can see how all of the spiritual meaning and knowledge is lost, and that is where it counts most.

I don't think that's the case at all. The moral message of many passages remain intact from a secular viewpoint. We just don't call it 'spiritual'. Or, to be a bit blunt, 'knowledge'.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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5/29/2014 11:18:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

Here are a few basic truths about some of the individuals in the Bible, some that stand out to me that I admire in no particular order, for the sake of time and space I'll name just a few...

Isaiah-
One of the most notable Prophets in all Judaism, a member of the Royal family.
Aside from his passion in his prophetic calling Isaiah was an active, respected political figure with an unwavering conviction against government corruption as well as spiritual destruction.
In his honest and straight forward character he had no fear of confronting adversity to establish truth and righteousness.
His political favor did not deter his convictions and he was known for attacking upper ruling classes in defense and support of the common people, for equality and fairness.
Not only was Isaiah fierce and steadfast in his beliefs, he was also a father of two and husband of the "prophetess", his own father's (Amoz) reputation was of noble descent.

Isaiah is known for his prophesies of warnings and hope for the people, the comming of the Messiah and the tyranny of Government. He was extremely passionate and vibrant in his his beliefs and very well written for his time.

Isaiah was murdered, sawed into two pieces.

Moses-
Former Prince of Egypt and notably the most important Prophet in Judaism, a leader and teacher of many and of a great Nation, Moses was taught the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Despite the reluctance to be a leader and speaker, Moses resumed great courage and faith to overcome self doubt and lack of confidence to become the father of a resilient Nation and a timeless belief in God.
The actions and humble character of Moses led him away from wealth, popularity and political favor to birth some of the most memorable and distinguished events in our history. It gave rise to one of the greatest Mono theistic beliefs that have ever existed.

His faith and belief in God were arguably the most important roles in the knowledge of the Creator as we know Him.

Daniel-
A well known educated man and major Prophet of the Old and remnants of the New test. Of Royal lineage and a survivor of Babylonian captivity he was favored for his uncommon abilities and wisdom.
Daniel, of great courage and faith was a faithful and obedient servant of God as well as attaining a high position in Government for 70 years. He also was unafraid of adversity and undeterred by political rivals, even in the face of lions to stay true to integrity, truth and righteousness.

Daniel remained true to his convictions despite great odds and sobering obstacles and became a prominent figure both spiritually and politically.. His fearless, creative and inspirational qualities not only attributed to his success in his position as governor, but a legacy and admiration that would last centuries.

Jesus Christ-
No need for introduction,
Arguably one of the most influential political and spiritual advisors to have ever graced this earth. His undying love and passion would and will go on to affect and inspire more Humans than perhaps anyone, ever.

He was murdered. Whipped, beaten, hung on nails and tortured. He willingly dominated fear and covered a multitude of evil.

Apostle Paul-
A highly educated and prominent political speaker and spiritual mentor. Paul, is recognizably one of the most important figures in all of Christianity, next to Christ.
"Saul" was born into a financially successful and highly esteemed family. He was both well known in political and religious affairs and his reputation preceded him.

Paul's loyal, radical and honest attributes paved the way to one of the most known "conversions" in all of history. A conversion that would face undeniable rejection and persecution.
Despite the beatings, imprisonment, starvation and treatment like most of us will never suffer Paul went on to write a series of epistles that reflected great passion, courage and love that would radiate, convict and instruct many and endure generations to come.

The Apostles lifestyle represents unbelievable inner strength and resilience, while having nothing to gain and everything to lose he chose truth.
With no motivation of greed, money or control he followed his devotion to God for the benefit of the people even unto death.

Paul was murdered, most likely beheaded.

The list goes on, Abraham, John the Baptist, Noah ect.....

Despite the general secular opinion regarding people of the Bible, I would say the actions, legacy and motivations left from a people of a ruthless and unsure existence speak for them selves. They were no more ignorant than the people thousands of years from now will think looking at what we did. For their time, these were honorable and dedicated individuals.

Bible says sky is a solid dome. You should ask NASA if that is true or just ideas of goatherds.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
Brendan21
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5/29/2014 11:19:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence. Have you read any of the books I mentioned by the authors? It should be pretty clear regardless of whether or not you actually believe it that these writers were not ignorant.

Ignorance can have different varying degrees, and to an extent every single person in the world is ignorant in some way or another, so I don't see the problem you have with some people saying they are ignorant. Ignorant of what? Spreading false teachings that helped people at times? Wouldn't that be the case for everyone that's ever preached religion?
OFC people of that time period were, in general, ignorant in comparison to present day, due to education and development, but as you said yourself, people in the future will regard us as ignorant of many things we don't yet know of.
matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 11:32:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:17:34 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence.

Well ignorance is a relative measure, isn't it? They may have been relatively well-informed for their time, but still ignorant of huge amounts of stuff that we now consider fairly basic knowledge. Many great intellects throughout history have been ignorant of such things. The further back you go, the less advances had been made and the greater the relative 'ignorance gap' becomes.

You made my point which is cool so I guess we agree.
But my question goes back to the OP, how were they any less intelligent despite our enormous advances in knowledge and tech in general? They weren't lol, that's the answer. Different ideas and beliefs than you? Obviously so, but why look down on them?

However, coming from a secular or material point of view, I can see how all of the spiritual meaning and knowledge is lost, and that is where it counts most.

I don't think that's the case at all. The moral message of many passages remain intact from a secular viewpoint. We just don't call it 'spiritual'. Or, to be a bit blunt, 'knowledge'.

Really? okay fair enough.
matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 11:45:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:19:39 AM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence. Have you read any of the books I mentioned by the authors? It should be pretty clear regardless of whether or not you actually believe it that these writers were not ignorant.

Ignorance can have different varying degrees, and to an extent every single person in the world is ignorant in some way or another, so I don't see the problem you have with some people saying they are ignorant. Ignorant of what? Spreading false teachings that helped people at times? Wouldn't that be the case for everyone that's ever preached religion?
OFC people of that time period were, in general, ignorant in comparison to present day, due to education and development, but as you said yourself, people in the future will regard us as ignorant of many things we don't yet know of.

Yep, I agree. However I do have a problem with people stigmatizing Biblical people as dumb as expressed in the OP, which is propaganda in my opinion used to tarnish and gain advantages in unintelligent ways.
Obviously your feelings of spreading false teachings are your opinion so that's really irrelevant.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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5/29/2014 11:49:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 10:37:47 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 9:00:41 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Yoda and Harry Potter are pretty cool guys, too.

Not my favorites and that's for another topic, the topic is expressed in the OP.

Not really. When people refer to "ignorant goat herders" we're talking about the people that wrote and believed in the Bible. That is, the people that actually existed, not the fictional characters contained within. It's a book of myths and legends, believed by ignorant goat herders.
Graincruncher
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5/29/2014 11:49:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:32:12 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
You made my point which is cool so I guess we agree.
But my question goes back to the OP, how were they any less intelligent despite our enormous advances in knowledge and tech in general? They weren't lol, that's the answer. Different ideas and beliefs than you? Obviously so, but why look down on them?

Firstly, ignorance is a measure of knowledge, not intelligence. They were lacking in knowledge about the world, compared to most people in modern society. The idea that they're the go-to guys for answers about the origins of the universe, over modern cosmologists and the thousands of years of extra knowledge, testing and review that we have to call on... that is what I look down on.

Look at it this way; if you wanted your car fixed, would you ask a modern-day mechanic or someone who was born thousands of years before the internal combustion engine was even invented? Is that because the mechanic is more intelligent than the ancient guy or because he's better informed?
Brendan21
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5/29/2014 11:52:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:45:22 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:19:39 AM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence. Have you read any of the books I mentioned by the authors? It should be pretty clear regardless of whether or not you actually believe it that these writers were not ignorant.

Ignorance can have different varying degrees, and to an extent every single person in the world is ignorant in some way or another, so I don't see the problem you have with some people saying they are ignorant. Ignorant of what? Spreading false teachings that helped people at times? Wouldn't that be the case for everyone that's ever preached religion?
OFC people of that time period were, in general, ignorant in comparison to present day, due to education and development, but as you said yourself, people in the future will regard us as ignorant of many things we don't yet know of.

Yep, I agree. However I do have a problem with people stigmatizing Biblical people as dumb as expressed in the OP, which is propaganda in my opinion used to tarnish and gain advantages in unintelligent ways.
Obviously your feelings of spreading false teachings are your opinion so that's really irrelevant.

Ofc the false teaching bit is opinion. I don't know about the biblical people being referred to as "dumb" in any meaningful discussion, but as far as I know they are just fictional characters, so a person can apply any traits they wish.
v3nesl
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5/29/2014 11:56:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:17:34 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:10:45 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Well I'm glad you at least get that. I understand your dilemma but this thread was not intended to convince anyone rather expose the propaganda. So I'm still left wondering why are they ignorant, the characters or the authors, actually, to even be able to write a story at all in those times means you must have possessed some intelligence.

Well ignorance is a relative measure, isn't it? They may have been relatively well-informed for their time, but still ignorant of huge amounts of stuff that we now consider fairly basic knowledge. Many great intellects throughout history have been ignorant of such things. The further back you go, the less advances had been made and the greater the relative 'ignorance gap' becomes.


And I'd say most modern westerners are spiritual third graders compared to somebody like Paul. And in an age of nukes, a little more insight into the moral motivations of the human heart couldn't hurt.

I don't think we really know more today, just different stuff. We're trivia masters today, knowing much and understanding little.
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matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 11:57:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:49:40 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:32:12 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
You made my point which is cool so I guess we agree.
But my question goes back to the OP, how were they any less intelligent despite our enormous advances in knowledge and tech in general? They weren't lol, that's the answer. Different ideas and beliefs than you? Obviously so, but why look down on them?

Firstly, ignorance is a measure of knowledge, not intelligence. They were lacking in knowledge about the world, compared to most people in modern society. The idea that they're the go-to guys for answers about the origins of the universe, over modern cosmologists and the thousands of years of extra knowledge, testing and review that we have to call on... that is what I look down on.
The underlined has been covered many times now, that's not the issue and we both agreed.
They aren't the "go-to-guys" for scientific answers, that's what science is for. It's the atheists and scientists that insist on dragging the scriptures through scientific mud. It was not meant for that, ever. The Bible is a spiritual book that gives us basic insight about creation in simple ways. It's focus is on God and our spiritual well being, which is the larger picture (in Christiantiy).

Look at it this way; if you wanted your car fixed, would you ask a modern-day mechanic or someone who was born thousands of years before the internal combustion engine was even invented? Is that because the mechanic is more intelligent than the ancient guy or because he's better informed?
That,s correct.
You don't go to the Bible for "scientific" answers. Just like you don't turn to science to answer questions about God.
v3nesl
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5/29/2014 11:59:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:49:40 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:32:12 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
You made my point which is cool so I guess we agree.
But my question goes back to the OP, how were they any less intelligent despite our enormous advances in knowledge and tech in general? They weren't lol, that's the answer. Different ideas and beliefs than you? Obviously so, but why look down on them?

Firstly, ignorance is a measure of knowledge, not intelligence. They were lacking in knowledge about the world, compared to most people in modern society. The idea that they're the go-to guys for answers about the origins of the universe, over modern cosmologists and the thousands of years of extra knowledge, testing and review that we have to call on... that is what I look down on.

Look at it this way; if you wanted your car fixed, would you ask a modern-day mechanic or someone who was born thousands of years before the internal combustion engine was even invented? Is that because the mechanic is more intelligent than the ancient guy or because he's better informed?

Well, if wanted to know where my car was purchased, I'd ask the original owner. When it comes to history, the ancients know more than we do.

So I think this is actually an excellent example of modern hubris, mistaking data for knowledge, even.
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Brendan21
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5/29/2014 12:06:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:57:18 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

The underlined has been covered many times now, that's not the issue and we both agreed.
They aren't the "go-to-guys" for scientific answers, that's what science is for. It's the atheists and scientists that insist on dragging the scriptures through scientific mud. It was not meant for that, ever. The Bible is a spiritual book that gives us basic insight about creation in simple ways. It's focus is on God and our spiritual well being, which is the larger picture (in Christiantiy).

It would be one thing if the bible could be accepted as that universally by Christians (when I was Catholic I believed they were moral stories not facts), but when a portion of people insisted that the bible is infallibly true as justify limiting peoples rights (IE gay marriage etc) with the bible as their reason, it becomes a problem.
Graincruncher
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5/29/2014 12:11:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:56:43 AM, v3nesl wrote:
And I'd say most modern westerners are spiritual third graders compared to somebody like Paul. And in an age of nukes, a little more insight into the moral motivations of the human heart couldn't hurt.

I don't think we really know more today, just different stuff. We're trivia masters today, knowing much and understanding little.

Yes, but you say a lot of things and I'm yet to encounter one of them that isn't sodden with bias.
Graincruncher
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5/29/2014 12:16:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:57:18 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The underlined has been covered many times now, that's not the issue and we both agreed.

So why do you keep bringing up the view of their intelligence?

They aren't the "go-to-guys" for scientific answers, that's what science is for. It's the atheists and scientists that insist on dragging the scriptures through scientific mud. It was not meant for that, ever. The Bible is a spiritual book that gives us basic insight about creation in simple ways. It's focus is on God and our spiritual well being, which is the larger picture (in Christiantiy).

I'm afraid that many people seem to think they are, though. That's why scripture 'gets dragged through scientific mud' - because people are using it to support claims regarding scientific matters or in conflict with things science has shown us to be true.

That,s correct.
You don't go to the Bible for "scientific" answers. Just like you don't turn to science to answer questions about God.

Some people go to it for all answers, scientific or otherwise. It isn't just our knowledge about the world that has come on leaps and bounds in the time since, but our moral understanding, the range of problems we have to deal with, the resources we have available to deal with them, the impact different problems will have on society... I don't see anything of worth that can be found in the Bible that can't be found elsewhere, usually in a much better form and based on more up-to-date information.
v3nesl
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5/29/2014 12:26:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 12:11:18 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:56:43 AM, v3nesl wrote:
And I'd say most modern westerners are spiritual third graders compared to somebody like Paul. And in an age of nukes, a little more insight into the moral motivations of the human heart couldn't hurt.

I don't think we really know more today, just different stuff. We're trivia masters today, knowing much and understanding little.

Yes, but you say a lot of things and I'm yet to encounter one of them that isn't sodden with bias.

okey dokey, I'll gladly yield the Mr. Unbiased crown to you, if that's what you value.
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matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 1:47:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 12:06:40 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:57:18 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

The underlined has been covered many times now, that's not the issue and we both agreed.
They aren't the "go-to-guys" for scientific answers, that's what science is for. It's the atheists and scientists that insist on dragging the scriptures through scientific mud. It was not meant for that, ever. The Bible is a spiritual book that gives us basic insight about creation in simple ways. It's focus is on God and our spiritual well being, which is the larger picture (in Christiantiy).

It would be one thing if the bible could be accepted as that universally by Christians (when I was Catholic I believed they were moral stories not facts), but when a portion of people insisted that the bible is infallibly true as justify limiting peoples rights (IE gay marriage etc) with the bible as their reason, it becomes a problem.

Well a sexual lifestyle would be considered a spiritual subject, in Christian context. Which is where the concern starts because to God it is a unity. The only restrictions are those that God would consider spiritual damaging, mentally or emotionally. This is where the road splits because obviously there is no spiritual issue for non believers, and that is understood. And so I have no idea what the answer is, or how this could be resolved.

I'm not going to turn this into a gay debate because I have no interest, but I think believers need to be careful about shouting "sins" and "gays" because the objective is to love and offer a message that is justified by our actions. There is a process of becoming righteous before God, it's nothing we automatically possess, so it is important that we use good judgement and consideration. No, I'm not pro gay, but I am smart enough to know that we need to love God first before we are willing to be pliable.
As for what should be legal and what religious people are going to do I have no control of. If it were up to me, I would emphasize the importance of why the scriptures are against it and not just what it says, so that we make sure we are not pointing fingers. I would express love and acceptance before rejection and hate.
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5/29/2014 3:04:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 10:36:40 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 7:41:13 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/28/2014 1:38:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Or remarkably influential and courageous men?

Here are a few basic truths about some of the individuals in the Bible, some that stand out to me that I admire in no particular order, for the sake of time and space I'll name just a few...

Isaiah-
One of the most notable Prophets in all Judaism, a member of the Royal family.
Aside from his passion in his prophetic calling Isaiah was an active, respected political figure with an unwavering conviction against government corruption as well as spiritual destruction.
In his honest and straight forward character he had no fear of confronting adversity to establish truth and righteousness.
His political favor did not deter his convictions and he was known for attacking upper ruling classes in defense and support of the common people, for equality and fairness.
Not only was Isaiah fierce and steadfast in his beliefs, he was also a father of two and husband of the "prophetess", his own father's (Amoz) reputation was of noble descent.

Isaiah is known for his prophesies of warnings and hope for the people, the comming of the Messiah and the tyranny of Government. He was extremely passionate and vibrant in his his beliefs and very well written for his time.

Isaiah was murdered, sawed into two pieces.

Moses-
Former Prince of Egypt and notably the most important Prophet in Judaism, a leader and teacher of many and of a great Nation, Moses was taught the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Despite the reluctance to be a leader and speaker, Moses resumed great courage and faith to overcome self doubt and lack of confidence to become the father of a resilient Nation and a timeless belief in God.
The actions and humble character of Moses led him away from wealth, popularity and political favor to birth some of the most memorable and distinguished events in our history. It gave rise to one of the greatest Mono theistic beliefs that have ever existed.

His faith and belief in God were arguably the most important roles in the knowledge of the Creator as we know Him.

Daniel-
A well known educated man and major Prophet of the Old and remnants of the New test. Of Royal lineage and a survivor of Babylonian captivity he was favored for his uncommon abilities and wisdom.
Daniel, of great courage and faith was a faithful and obedient servant of God as well as attaining a high position in Government for 70 years. He also was unafraid of adversity and undeterred by political rivals, even in the face of lions to stay true to integrity, truth and righteousness.

Daniel remained true to his convictions despite great odds and sobering obstacles and became a prominent figure both spiritually and politically.. His fearless, creative and inspirational qualities not only attributed to his success in his position as governor, but a legacy and admiration that would last centuries.

Jesus Christ-
No need for introduction,
Arguably one of the most influential political and spiritual advisors to have ever graced this earth. His undying love and passion would and will go on to affect and inspire more Humans than perhaps anyone, ever.

He was murdered. Whipped, beaten, hung on nails and tortured. He willingly dominated fear and covered a multitude of evil.

Apostle Paul-
A highly educated and prominent political speaker and spiritual mentor. Paul, is recognizably one of the most important figures in all of Christianity, next to Christ.
"Saul" was born into a financially successful and highly esteemed family. He was both well known in political and religious affairs and his reputation preceded him.

Paul's loyal, radical and honest attributes paved the way to one of the most known "conversions" in all of history. A conversion that would face undeniable rejection and persecution.
Despite the beatings, imprisonment, starvation and treatment like most of us will never suffer Paul went on to write a series of epistles that reflected great passion, courage and love that would radiate, convict and instruct many and endure generations to come.

The Apostles lifestyle represents unbelievable inner strength and resilience, while having nothing to gain and everything to lose he chose truth.
With no motivation of greed, money or control he followed his devotion to God for the benefit of the people even unto death.

Paul was murdered, most likely beheaded.

The list goes on, Abraham, John the Baptist, Noah ect.....

Despite the general secular opinion regarding people of the Bible, I would say the actions, legacy and motivations left from a people of a ruthless and unsure existence speak for them selves. They were no more ignorant than the people thousands of years from now will think looking at what we did. For their time, these were honorable and dedicated individuals.

Do you have anything ex-biblical evidence that any of these characters ever existed?

Despite the fact that Isaiah, Daniel and Paul are thought to be participants themselves in the writings the OP remains the same.
Are they ignorant and why? Whether fictional characters or real people the question remains the same, why are such influential people who lived thousands of years ago considered ignorant and why are they being categorized as such? on what basis....

I wouldn't waste your time on that one brother. Paul is perhaps the only first century religious figure with more evidence that, quite literally, Jesus.

Why some ignoramus asks such a question? It only highlights his willful ignorance and deliberately closed mind.
matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 3:18:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 12:16:48 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 5/29/2014 11:57:18 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
The underlined has been covered many times now, that's not the issue and we both agreed.

So why do you keep bringing up the view of their intelligence?

Because certain people and certain groups of people would like to label them ignorant and unintelligent, when if fact they weren't. The lack of technology and advancement in science and knowledge in general says nothing about their IQ. If we agree on this then we can move forward.

They aren't the "go-to-guys" for scientific answers, that's what science is for. It's the atheists and scientists that insist on dragging the scriptures through scientific mud. It was not meant for that, ever. The Bible is a spiritual book that gives us basic insight about creation in simple ways. It's focus is on God and our spiritual well being, which is the larger picture (in Christiantiy).

I'm afraid that many people seem to think they are, though. That's why scripture 'gets dragged through scientific mud' - because people are using it to support claims regarding scientific matters or in conflict with things science has shown us to be true.
Huh? It's used to support claims of a Creator, not scientific information. You have it backwards, it's only in defense that we argue in theory and have a desire to correct misconceptions about scripture, because the average Atheist and scientist insist on comparing the two.
The Bible basically gives us an idea of creation, it in no way suggests scientific data, it uses imagery and concepts to visualize what God did in a way where even a child could get it. It was not intended to give information beyond that, period. So why is the creation story continually scrutinized under the pressure of science when it's intention is to relay a simple concept? The concept that the world was formed and constructed by the will and desire of a Creator.
But yes, if a matter suggests that there is no God obviously that's going to arise a conflict lol and we are going to want to defend that.

That,s correct.
You don't go to the Bible for "scientific" answers. Just like you don't turn to science to answer questions about God.

Some people go to it for all answers, scientific or otherwise. It isn't just our knowledge about the world that has come on leaps and bounds in the time since, but our moral understanding, the range of problems we have to deal with, the resources we have available to deal with them, the impact different problems will have on society... I don't see anything of worth that can be found in the Bible that can't be found elsewhere, usually in a much better form and based on more up-to-date information.

Again, if the claim (or assertion) is "there is no Creator", then naturally we are going to challenge that, and thus far it is justifiable, meaning the two claims are of equal substance.

We've made leaps and bounds in tech and advancements in our knowledge only.
The suggestion that somehow we have made leaps and bounds morally is ridiculous. Do you watch the news lol? We are the same Human as we were then, only with more toys. Nothing can or will change that and that is precisely why the Bible is NOT out dated. It deals with the moral and spiritual nature of man, something that will never change.
matt.mcguire88
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5/29/2014 3:58:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 11:49:22 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 5/29/2014 10:37:47 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 5/29/2014 9:00:41 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Yoda and Harry Potter are pretty cool guys, too.

Not my favorites and that's for another topic, the topic is expressed in the OP.

Not really. When people refer to "ignorant goat herders" we're talking about the people that wrote and believed in the Bible. That is, the people that actually existed, not the fictional characters contained within. It's a book of myths and legends, believed by ignorant goat herders.

Yes Harry Potter and Yoda are for another topic.

And why exactly are they "ignorant goat herders"? Because it disagrees with your views and your little brain doesn't have the capacity to reach beyond it's skull? What makes someone who herds goats ignorant?
Graincruncher
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5/29/2014 6:15:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 3:18:56 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Because certain people and certain groups of people would like to label them ignorant and unintelligent, when if fact they weren't. The lack of technology and advancement in science and knowledge in general says nothing about their IQ. If we agree on this then we can move forward.

Ignorant I have heard, in the sense I've described. I've never heard anyone say they were unintelligent, though.

Huh? It's used to support claims of a Creator, not scientific information. You have it backwards, it's only in defense that we argue in theory and have a desire to correct misconceptions about scripture, because the average Atheist and scientist insist on comparing the two.

You've never heard of creationism?? Loads of people use it as the basis for disputing established science. That's beside the point though, as I don't see what use it would be in supporting claims of a creator, since it is the claim.

The Bible basically gives us an idea of creation, it in no way suggests scientific data, it uses imagery and concepts to visualize what God did in a way where even a child could get it. It was not intended to give information beyond that, period. So why is the creation story continually scrutinized under the pressure of science when it's intention is to relay a simple concept? The concept that the world was formed and constructed by the will and desire of a Creator.

I would say that you are assuming you know what the intention was. Lots of other people think it was intended for other reasons. The reason the creation story is scrutinised in such a way is because creationists keep waving it around like a bunch of retards. That's it. If you claim the contents of it are true and evidence for some fairly fantastical stuff, you must expect it to be scrutinised. Since the god-claim itself can't be scrutinised (or supported), the scientific furore is just because there are several million screaming idiots in the world who don't understand concepts like allegory and metaphor.

Again, if the claim (or assertion) is "there is no Creator", then naturally we are going to challenge that, and thus far it is justifiable, meaning the two claims are of equal substance.

The claim that the Bible is evidence of anything of the sort is the one that is awaiting justification, though. My continuing to disbelieve it is not something I have to justify.

We've made leaps and bounds in tech and advancements in our knowledge only.
The suggestion that somehow we have made leaps and bounds morally is ridiculous.

Really? Know many slave owners? If you think social morality hasn't improved significantly over the last 2,000 years then I can only assume you're not paying attention. Sorry, but it's really that simple. Are we perfect? No. Do people own each other as a matter of course, use their children as a form of payment, get burned for witchcraft...? No. Anyone who claims that society has trended towards greater immorality over the past several thousands years is either using morals that are several thousands years old (bingo!) or is just outright scaremongering.

Did you read about the stoning in Pakistan today? 2,000 years ago that sort of thing was normal. You know how people who were crucified alongside Jesus were up there for relatively petty crimes like theft? Don't see a lot of people being executed for stealing now, do you? Are any of your female friends currently the sex slave of a family 'friend' who helped out financially and married them as his reward? No? I mean, come on... actually look at the comparison between how people treated each other than compared to how modern societies operate. It's not even in the same book, let alone on the same page.
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5/30/2014 7:13:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/29/2014 6:15:11 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
...

Did you read about the stoning in Pakistan today? 2,000 years ago that sort of thing was normal. You know how people who were crucified alongside Jesus were up there for relatively petty crimes like theft? Don't see a lot of people being executed for stealing now, do you? Are any of your female friends currently the sex slave of a family 'friend' who helped out financially and married them as his reward? No? I mean, come on... actually look at the comparison between how people treated each other than compared to how modern societies operate. It's not even in the same book, let alone on the same page.

But westerners simply kill the children they find inconvenient. The Pakistanis and others see this and think WE are the animals. I know, this is sodden with bias, but factual nevertheless.
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