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Why do you believe what you believe?

Cygnus
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6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Since I left the church in 2007, from time to time I find myself amazed and horrified when I think of what I believed. That the anti-christ is alive, that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell, that God made the expanse of the universe just for us (the arrogance of such thinking makes me cringe now), and most importantly that the Bible is absolutely perfect from cover to cover, even though I knew logically this wasn't true.

When I left I felt like a completely new person because I am no longer bound by the dogmatic influences of Christianity. I actually began to read books on evolutionary biology instead of acting like I was an expert in biology and physics. I can clearly see the influences that mystery and Hellenistic religions had on the origins of Christianity. I am able to think for myself instead of being told by Christians, "You ask too many questions, you just need to believe." Nor do I spend my entire life in absolute terror, thinking that God was going to send a lightning bolt through the ceiling and kill me because I started questioning things.

From failed prophecy after failed prophecy, to the moral failures of Christianity, to the absurdity that the Bible can be relied upon as a science book, I found that I was longer able to justify believing in something that I increasingly had no evidence for.

So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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6/5/2014 12:43:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:
Why do you believe what you believe?

I believe what the Bible tells, because it seems to be true about everything it says and I think its teachings are good.

For example:
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

That is excellent teaching in my opinion. I don"t see any reason not to believe it.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/5/2014 1:33:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 12:43:50 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:
Why do you believe what you believe?

I believe what the Bible tells, because it seems to be true about everything it says and I think its teachings are good.

It seems to be true?

I agree that at least some biblical teachings are good, but so are some of the teachings in the Satanic Bible and the Qu'ran. Just because these might have some bits of goodness in them, they're not necessarily good as a whole.

Quran 4:34 says that women who resist obedience should eventually be beaten. How does the Bible differ in this regard? How do you know that there aren't similar verses in the Bible?

For example:
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

That is excellent teaching in my opinion. I don"t see any reason not to believe it.

I would agree that these are good teachings, but what about teachings that say selling daughters into slavery is an acceptable practice? Do you believe that such an act is moral? If so, why?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/5/2014 4:05:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:

As I was reading your story I was confused why you believed this stuff even as a Christian. I am a Christian myself and I don't agree with some of the things you believed when you held to the Christian beliefs. For example:

Since I left the church in 2007, from time to time I find myself amazed and horrified when I think of what I believed. That the anti-christ is alive,

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that.

that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell,

I also don't believe that.

that God made the expanse of the universe just for us (the arrogance of such thinking makes me cringe now),

I dont think God made the universe just for us.

and most importantly that the Bible is absolutely perfect from cover to cover, even though I knew logically this wasn't true.

Not all Christians believe that either. In fact I think more would hold to the idea of infallibility rather than inerrancy as it seems you are alluding to.

When I left I felt like a completely new person because I am no longer bound by the dogmatic influences of Christianity. I actually began to read books on evolutionary biology instead of acting like I was an expert in biology and physics. I can clearly see the influences that mystery and Hellenistic religions had on the origins of Christianity. I am able to think for myself instead of being told by Christians, "You ask too many questions, you just need to believe." Nor do I spend my entire life in absolute terror, thinking that God was going to send a lightning bolt through the ceiling and kill me because I started questioning things.

From failed prophecy after failed prophecy, to the moral failures of Christianity, to the absurdity that the Bible can be relied upon as a science book, I found that I was longer able to justify believing in something that I increasingly had no evidence for.

If you don't mind, could you give some examples of the moral failures? I would also try to keep in mind that the bible is not a science book, and never claims to be.

So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.

In my opinion I find that the Christian worldview has more evidence and factual support than any other. That is why I believe it.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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6/6/2014 2:21:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 1:33:44 PM, Cygnus wrote:
I agree that at least some biblical teachings are good, but so are some of the teachings in the Satanic Bible and the Qu'ran. Just because these might have some bits of goodness in them, they're not necessarily good as a whole.

I think Bible is good as a whole.

I would agree that these are good teachings, but what about teachings that say selling daughters into slavery is an acceptable practice? Do you believe that such an act is moral? If so, why?

It depends of what it really means. Slave can mean servant, which in practice could be better than modern worker, who must pay taxes.

According to the Bible, people should treat others as they want to be treated (Matt. 7:12). If people keep slaves, it should be done according to that scripture.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/6/2014 3:44:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 2:21:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 1:33:44 PM, Cygnus wrote:
I agree that at least some biblical teachings are good, but so are some of the teachings in the Satanic Bible and the Qu'ran. Just because these might have some bits of goodness in them, they're not necessarily good as a whole.

I think Bible is good as a whole.

Again, we return to the idea of the Bible as a guide to morality. If it is good as a whole, would you own another human being as property, sell your daughter (if you have a daughter) into sexual slavery, kill homosexuals, witches, and others who have a different faith than you?

I would agree that these are good teachings, but what about teachings that say selling daughters into slavery is an acceptable practice? Do you believe that such an act is moral? If so, why?

It depends of what it really means. Slave can mean servant, which in practice could be better than modern worker, who must pay taxes.

A common response to the question of slavery in the Bible is to downplay the term "slavery" by inferring that "slave" really means "servant. But the text is clear, YHWH often commands slavery in the Bible, not just condoning its practice. For example, Leviticus 25:44-46 says:

44. "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

So, not only is it acceptable to buy adult men and women as slaves, but children can be bought as slaves and be handed down as an inheritance. Is this acceptable to you? Would you be willing to go into another country like Afghanistan , Iraq, or Sudan and buy a child to be an inheritance for you children?

According to the Bible, people should treat others as they want to be treated (Matt. 7:12). If people keep slaves, it should be done according to that scripture.

Then the Bible is contradicting itself. Exodus 21:20-21 states that you can beat a male or female servant to death, so long as they survive at least a day. Is this the kind of values that we should be teaching children?
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/6/2014 3:49:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 4:05:39 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:

As I was reading your story I was confused why you believed this stuff even as a Christian. I am a Christian myself and I don't agree with some of the things you believed when you held to the Christian beliefs. For example:

Since I left the church in 2007, from time to time I find myself amazed and horrified when I think of what I believed. That the anti-christ is alive,

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that.

that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell,

I also don't believe that.

that God made the expanse of the universe just for us (the arrogance of such thinking makes me cringe now),

I dont think God made the universe just for us.

and most importantly that the Bible is absolutely perfect from cover to cover, even though I knew logically this wasn't true.

Not all Christians believe that either. In fact I think more would hold to the idea of infallibility rather than inerrancy as it seems you are alluding to.

When I left I felt like a completely new person because I am no longer bound by the dogmatic influences of Christianity. I actually began to read books on evolutionary biology instead of acting like I was an expert in biology and physics. I can clearly see the influences that mystery and Hellenistic religions had on the origins of Christianity. I am able to think for myself instead of being told by Christians, "You ask too many questions, you just need to believe." Nor do I spend my entire life in absolute terror, thinking that God was going to send a lightning bolt through the ceiling and kill me because I started questioning things.

From failed prophecy after failed prophecy, to the moral failures of Christianity, to the absurdity that the Bible can be relied upon as a science book, I found that I was longer able to justify believing in something that I increasingly had no evidence for.

If you don't mind, could you give some examples of the moral failures? I would also try to keep in mind that the bible is not a science book, and never claims to be.

So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.

You've made a very clear indication of why the Bible is not the word of God and there is no true unity in the church. If it truly were the word of God, then there would be no misinterpreting its text. To further illustrate this point, there are over 30,000 denominations and dozens of translations.

You go on to say, "In my opinion I find that the Christian worldview has more evidence and factual support than any other. That is why I believe it." Interesting.

Can you elaborate?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,297
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6/6/2014 6:24:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:
Since I left the church in 2007, from time to time I find myself amazed and horrified when I think of what I believed. That the anti-christ is alive, that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell, that God made the expanse of the universe just for us (the arrogance of such thinking makes me cringe now), and most importantly that the Bible is absolutely perfect from cover to cover, even though I knew logically this wasn't true.

Maybe it was the denomination you were with? Have you considered the possibility that that was the problem?

When I left I felt like a completely new person because I am no longer bound by the dogmatic influences of Christianity. I actually began to read books on evolutionary biology instead of acting like I was an expert in biology and physics. I can clearly see the influences that mystery and Hellenistic religions had on the origins of Christianity. I am able to think for myself instead of being told by Christians, "You ask too many questions, you just need to believe." Nor do I spend my entire life in absolute terror, thinking that God was going to send a lightning bolt through the ceiling and kill me because I started questioning things.

Yes the problem with people like Thomas Aquinas was that he said never to ask questions and just do as you're told.

From failed prophecy after failed prophecy, to the moral failures of Christianity, to the absurdity that the Bible can be relied upon as a science book, I found that I was longer able to justify believing in something that I increasingly had no evidence for.

Once again your denomination sounded like one of the crazy fringe ones.

So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.

I make no qualms about the fact that I probably believe as I do because it was the faith I was given as a child. However, like every person you reach an age where you ask is this true. I have found that the deeper I read and learn, it doesn't make less sense, it makes more.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/6/2014 7:22:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 6:24:01 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:
Since I left the church in 2007, from time to time I find myself amazed and horrified when I think of what I believed. That the anti-christ is alive, that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell, that God made the expanse of the universe just for us (the arrogance of such thinking makes me cringe now), and most importantly that the Bible is absolutely perfect from cover to cover, even though I knew logically this wasn't true.

Maybe it was the denomination you were with? Have you considered the possibility that that was the problem?

When I left I felt like a completely new person because I am no longer bound by the dogmatic influences of Christianity. I actually began to read books on evolutionary biology instead of acting like I was an expert in biology and physics. I can clearly see the influences that mystery and Hellenistic religions had on the origins of Christianity. I am able to think for myself instead of being told by Christians, "You ask too many questions, you just need to believe." Nor do I spend my entire life in absolute terror, thinking that God was going to send a lightning bolt through the ceiling and kill me because I started questioning things.

Yes the problem with people like Thomas Aquinas was that he said never to ask questions and just do as you're told.

From failed prophecy after failed prophecy, to the moral failures of Christianity, to the absurdity that the Bible can be relied upon as a science book, I found that I was longer able to justify believing in something that I increasingly had no evidence for.

Once again your denomination sounded like one of the crazy fringe ones.

So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.

I make no qualms about the fact that I probably believe as I do because it was the faith I was given as a child. However, like every person you reach an age where you ask is this true. I have found that the deeper I read and learn, it doesn't make less sense, it makes more.

Which denominations would be considered one of the fringe crazy ones, and which ones aren't?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/7/2014 11:56:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:49:55 PM, Cygnus wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:05:39 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/5/2014 11:41:00 AM, Cygnus wrote:

As I was reading your story I was confused why you believed this stuff even as a Christian. I am a Christian myself and I don't agree with some of the things you believed when you held to the Christian beliefs. For example:

Since I left the church in 2007, from time to time I find myself amazed and horrified when I think of what I believed. That the anti-christ is alive,

I'm a Christian and I don't believe that.

that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell,

I also don't believe that.

that God made the expanse of the universe just for us (the arrogance of such thinking makes me cringe now),

I dont think God made the universe just for us.

and most importantly that the Bible is absolutely perfect from cover to cover, even though I knew logically this wasn't true.

Not all Christians believe that either. In fact I think more would hold to the idea of infallibility rather than inerrancy as it seems you are alluding to.

When I left I felt like a completely new person because I am no longer bound by the dogmatic influences of Christianity. I actually began to read books on evolutionary biology instead of acting like I was an expert in biology and physics. I can clearly see the influences that mystery and Hellenistic religions had on the origins of Christianity. I am able to think for myself instead of being told by Christians, "You ask too many questions, you just need to believe." Nor do I spend my entire life in absolute terror, thinking that God was going to send a lightning bolt through the ceiling and kill me because I started questioning things.

From failed prophecy after failed prophecy, to the moral failures of Christianity, to the absurdity that the Bible can be relied upon as a science book, I found that I was longer able to justify believing in something that I increasingly had no evidence for.

If you don't mind, could you give some examples of the moral failures? I would also try to keep in mind that the bible is not a science book, and never claims to be.

So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.

You've made a very clear indication of why the Bible is not the word of God and there is no true unity in the church. If it truly were the word of God, then there would be no misinterpreting its text. To further illustrate this point, there are over 30,000 denominations and dozens of translations.

First, I do believe that the bible is the word of God. You have said that if the bible was the word of God, then there would be no misinterpreting its text? I'm not sure the conclusion necessarily, even probably, follows. I don't believe the point about the denominations or translations has any effect on the truth value of the bible. If you have ever translated anything in any language you know that there are no perfect one to one translations. I don't see why this would change simply because it is Gods word. I think that idea comes from a misunderstanding of the compilation of the text.

You go on to say, "In my opinion I find that the Christian worldview has more evidence and factual support than any other. That is why I believe it." Interesting.

Can you elaborate?

I think that the Christian worldview makes the best sense of what we know concerning the origin of the universe, the seemingly specific details that our planet/universe needed to be started and sustained (design). I believe it also makes best sense for a moral foundation. I also think, through studying the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that it is more probably true than false that he was and is in fact God. These are just the first few that come to mind.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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6/7/2014 10:34:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 11:56:24 AM, stubs wrote:

I think that the Christian worldview makes the best sense of what we know concerning the origin of the universe, the seemingly specific details that our planet/universe needed to be started and sustained (design). I believe it also makes best sense for a moral foundation. I also think, through studying the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that it is more probably true than false that he was and is in fact God. These are just the first few that come to mind.
Why would an omnipotent god need specific details for creating or sustaining anything? Surely such a being could create and sustain life forms in a void, fine tuning is an excellent argument against the existence of an omnipotent god.
Where would you study the life, death and resurrection of jesus? From the writings of people who never met him, lived decades or generations later and yet allegedly quote things he allegedly said?
Perhaps from people who had an agenda of creating a new religion using similar fanciful claims made about other gods incarnate?
It seems fanciful, at the very least, to believe the words attributed to jesus were actually spoken by him.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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6/8/2014 9:53:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:44:58 PM, Cygnus wrote:
Again, we return to the idea of the Bible as a guide to morality. If it is good as a whole, would you own another human being as property, sell your daughter (if you have a daughter) into sexual slavery, kill homosexuals, witches, and others who have a different faith than you?

I don"t think Bible urge to sell people to sexual slavery. It does not speak about sex slaves, which in most cases would be adultery and lead to death penalty. And I think it denies selling people to other nations.

Obviously the Law of Moses is for Jews. And according to that Law also those who were bought should have been circumcised and so taken to the Jewish nation.

He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant."
Genesis 17:13-14

And all people that belong to that nation should be treated as the Law says.

If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold to you, and serve you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
Deuteronomy 15:12

So if the Law was obeyed accurately, every servant that was bought should have been circumcised and by that way added to Jewish nation. And then slaves should have been treated well and freedom should be declared for every Jew every 7th year.

Jeremiah 34:8-17 is also good to know, when you think what should be done to Jewish slaves.

I think Bible don"t give right to be judge for all people.

So, not only is it acceptable to buy adult men and women as slaves, but children can be bought as slaves and be handed down as an inheritance. Is this acceptable to you? Would you be willing to go into another country like Afghanistan , Iraq, or Sudan and buy a child to be an inheritance for you children?

Actually if some people are selling other"s it could be good thing to buy them and take them to better conditions, where they would be treated better way and to nation, where own people are not sold to other nations.

I think the buying is not so bad. Worse thing is that some people are ready to sell their children to nations that are evil.

Then the Bible is contradicting itself. Exodus 21:20-21 states that you can beat a male or female servant to death, so long as they survive at least a day. Is this the kind of values that we should be teaching children?

Bible gives many rights. I don"t think it means that you should do everything you could do. According to Jesus most important things in the law are justice, mercy and faith, not to kill and beat as many as you can.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.
Matt. 23:23

I think you are like those Pharisees, focused only to less important things. Al though I think Pharisees very not as obsessed with killing and slaves.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/8/2014 3:08:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 10:34:06 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/7/2014 11:56:24 AM, stubs wrote:

I think that the Christian worldview makes the best sense of what we know concerning the origin of the universe, the seemingly specific details that our planet/universe needed to be started and sustained (design). I believe it also makes best sense for a moral foundation. I also think, through studying the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that it is more probably true than false that he was and is in fact God. These are just the first few that come to mind.

Why would an omnipotent god need specific details for creating or sustaining anything?

I never said that and the fine tuning argument does not imply that either.

Surely such a being could create and sustain life forms in a void, fine tuning is an excellent argument against the existence of an omnipotent god.

I think that you may be misinformed about what the fine tuning argument is. It is not saying God would have fine tuned the universe, the universe is fine tuned, therefore God fine tuned the universe, and thus God exists. Rather it is simply suggesting that God may be the best explanation for the facts that we do have concerning the universe/planet and the origins of it. Here are a few examples: Stephen Hawking said that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have collapsed into a fireball. Also, British physicist P.C.W. Davies has concluded that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for the formation of stars, which are necessary for planets and thus life, is a one followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeros. Davies also said that if the strength of gravity were changed by only one part in 10^100 life could never have developed. For comparison there is only 10^80 atoms in the entire known universe. Keeping those facts in mind, I think that God makes the most sense, but I know that there are other opinions out there and I respect that too. I just personally find that the theistic God makes sense of not only these facts, but also everything else.

Where would you study the life, death and resurrection of jesus? From the writings of people who never met him, lived decades or generations later and yet allegedly quote things he allegedly said?

I don't think the dates of the scriptures make them historically unreliable in the least bit.

Perhaps from people who had an agenda of creating a new religion using similar fanciful claims made about other gods incarnate?

I think if they simply had an agenda to create a new religion they could have done a much better job haha. Sure it worked out in the long run, but think of it at the time. Telling people they had to follow Jesus, lots of time to death. Living in fear of death nearly every day. Doesn't sound appealing.

It seems fanciful, at the very least, to believe the words attributed to jesus were actually spoken by him.

I've actually stopped debating this for a long time. After searching through the evidence of book after book, I found it much too probably that the recorded words of Jesus were actually his. I don't even find it interesting to debate anymore.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/9/2014 3:18:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/8/2014 9:53:35 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:44:58 PM, Cygnus wrote:
Again, we return to the idea of the Bible as a guide to morality. If it is good as a whole, would you own another human being as property, sell your daughter (if you have a daughter) into sexual slavery, kill homosexuals, witches, and others who have a different faith than you?

I don"t think Bible urge to sell people to sexual slavery. It does not speak about sex slaves, which in most cases would be adultery and lead to death penalty. And I think it denies selling people to other nations.

Exodus 21:7-11


Obviously the Law of Moses is for Jews. And according to that Law also those who were bought should have been circumcised and so taken to the Jewish nation.

So it's okay to force someone against their will and adopt such laws and practices?

And all people that belong to that nation should be treated as the Law says.

If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold to you, and serve you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
Deuteronomy 15:12

But what if it's a Canaanite or Amalakite?

So if the Law was obeyed accurately, every servant that was bought should have been circumcised and by that way added to Jewish nation. And then slaves should have been treated well and freedom should be declared for every Jew every 7th year.

This verse doesn't apply to female slaves. Exodus 21:7-11 again.


So, not only is it acceptable to buy adult men and women as slaves, but children can be bought as slaves and be handed down as an inheritance. Is this acceptable to you? Would you be willing to go into another country like Afghanistan , Iraq, or Sudan and buy a child to be an inheritance for you children?

Actually if some people are selling other"s it could be good thing to buy them and take them to better conditions, where they would be treated better way and to nation, where own people are not sold to other nations.

I think the buying is not so bad. Worse thing is that some people are ready to sell their children to nations that are evil.

You didn't answer my question. Is the practice of buying a child as a slave to give to your children as an inheritance morally acceptable? Yes or no.

Then the Bible is contradicting itself. Exodus 21:20-21 states that you can beat a male or female servant to death, so long as they survive at least a day. Is this the kind of values that we should be teaching children?

Bible gives many rights.

So, it's okay then to beat someone to death so long as they live at least a day?

I think you are like those Pharisees, focused only to less important things. Al though I think Pharisees very not as obsessed with killing and slaves.

So, beating someone to death is not important? Owning another human being as personal property or "money" is not important? How is this objective morality?
12_13
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6/10/2014 2:57:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 3:18:55 PM, Cygnus wrote:
I don"t think Bible urge to sell people to sexual slavery. It does not speak about sex slaves, which in most cases would be adultery and lead to death penalty. And I think it denies selling people to other nations.

Exodus 21:7-11

But what if it's a Canaanite or Amalakite?

If Jews obeyed the Law, they made them Jews by circumcising them as the Law tells.

So if the Law was obeyed accurately, every servant that was bought should have been circumcised and by that way added to Jewish nation. And then slaves should have been treated well and freedom should be declared for every Jew every 7th year.

This verse doesn't apply to female slaves. Exodus 21:7-11 again.

Yes and if your read what you quote, you could see that the women should be redeemed, if she doesn"t please. So, if the woman doesn"t do as asked, then she will be free. I don"t see any rape and much forcing in that.

If she doesn't please her master, who has married her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.

You didn't answer my question. Is the practice of buying a child as a slave to give to your children as an inheritance morally acceptable? Yes or no.

Yes, when it gives better life to the one who was bought.

Then the Bible is contradicting itself. Exodus 21:20-21 states that you can beat a male or female servant to death, so long as they survive at least a day. Is this the kind of values that we should be teaching children?

Bible gives many rights.

So, it's okay then to beat someone to death so long as they live at least a day?

I wouldn"t do so.

So, beating someone to death is not important? Owning another human being as personal property or "money" is not important? How is this objective morality?

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.
Matt. 23:23

I think more important are justice, mercy and faith. I think person who is faithful and just and merciful, doesn"t do anything wrong.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/11/2014 3:33:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 2:57:30 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/9/2014 3:18:55 PM, Cygnus wrote:
I don"t think Bible urge to sell people to sexual slavery. It does not speak about sex slaves, which in most cases would be adultery and lead to death penalty. And I think it denies selling people to other nations.

Exodus 21:7-11


But what if it's a Canaanite or Amalakite?

If Jews obeyed the Law, they made them Jews by circumcising them as the Law tells.

So if the Law was obeyed accurately, every servant that was bought should have been circumcised and by that way added to Jewish nation. And then slaves should have been treated well and freedom should be declared for every Jew every 7th year.

This verse doesn't apply to female slaves. Exodus 21:7-11 again.

Yes and if your read what you quote, you could see that the women should be redeemed, if she doesn"t please. So, if the woman doesn"t do as asked, then she will be free. I don"t see any rape and much forcing in that.

As if that makes it right to sell a girl into slavery, sexual or otherwise? Besides, I did read it.

If she doesn't please her master, who has married her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.

You didn't answer my question. Is the practice of buying a child as a slave to give to your children as an inheritance morally acceptable? Yes or no.

Yes, when it gives better life to the one who was bought.

I can't help but notice that even in a yes or no question, you toss a qualifier into your answer. I would rather die buy another child as an inheritance for my child to do with as he pleases. Adoption is the correct answer if you want to rescue a child and give them a chance at a better life, not purchasing a child to be a servant to yours,

Then the Bible is contradicting itself. Exodus 21:20-21 states that you can beat a male or female servant to death, so long as they survive at least a day. Is this the kind of values that we should be teaching children?

Bible gives many rights.

So, it's okay then to beat someone to death so long as they live at least a day?

I wouldn"t do so.

Why not? The Bible says its legal to beat a slave to death because, as as verse 21 says, he is your "money".

So, beating someone to death is not important? Owning another human being as personal property or "money" is not important? How is this objective morality?

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.
Matt. 23:23

Are you seriously trying to convince me that because I'm focusing on serious issues like, slavery in the Bible that this is like inane issues like offering dill to God?

I think more important are justice, mercy and faith. I think person who is faithful and just and merciful, doesn"t do anything wrong.

Wait...this is awesome. Read this verse:

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." - Hosea 13:16

Where's the justice for these children and women? What mercy did God display when the Israelites were slamming babies on the ground over and over again until they're dead and tore babies from their mothers wombs?

And you actually want me to have faith in this crap?
PureX
Posts: 1,533
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6/11/2014 9:14:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Reading these posts, it sound as if it's just easier to believe what we've been handed than it is to doubt or question it.

That's sad.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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6/12/2014 3:08:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 3:33:07 PM, Cygnus wrote:
Why not?

Because I wouldn"t want that to be done to me.

Are you seriously trying to convince me that because I'm focusing on serious issues like, slavery in the Bible that this is like inane issues like offering dill to God?

Serious issues are justice, mercy and faith.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/12/2014 3:47:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/12/2014 3:08:06 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/11/2014 3:33:07 PM, Cygnus wrote:
Why not?

Because I wouldn"t want that to be done to me.

But why not? The Bible says it's okay.

Are you seriously trying to convince me that because I'm focusing on serious issues like, slavery in the Bible that this is like inane issues like offering dill to God?

Serious issues are justice, mercy and faith.

Again, what about the innocent lives that the Israelites took? Where was God's mercy then? I agree that at least justice and mercy are serious issues, but what about murder of infants and pregnant mothers. Are these not important?
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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6/15/2014 6:14:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/12/2014 3:47:44 PM, Cygnus wrote:
Again, what about the innocent lives that the Israelites took?

I don"t see any proof that Israelites killed innocent people.
Cygnus
Posts: 153
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6/15/2014 7:12:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 6:14:43 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/12/2014 3:47:44 PM, Cygnus wrote:
Again, what about the innocent lives that the Israelites took?

I don"t see any proof that Israelites killed innocent people.

That's because you don't want to.
NathanDuclos
Posts: 51
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6/16/2014 9:39:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, the question I have for you, isn't so much what you believe but why you believe it.

The same way you do, what I have learned an was taught, what I can reason and what helps me maintain my world view. However I have come up with 3 places where I do not trust myself 1) if my 3 best friends say "nathan, dont date that girl" I don't, so far, they have always been right, so I will go with them there. 2) When someone (important to me) says "prove it" when i make a statement I take time to prove it, and argue it and if I am wrong, I drop the belief until someone can make a better argument. 3) if I have to act and someone witness what I did, would i be proud or ashamed if they told my son. . . .