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Omnipotence - All/Infinitely Powerful

Envisage
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6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2014 4:51:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

Basically.
God could be considered "all-powerful" in that there is nothing that exists that could eliminate God or His power, better put God is all-authority.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 4:56:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 4:51:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

Basically.
God could be considered "all-powerful" in that there is nothing that exists that could eliminate God or His power, better put God is all-authority.

So God is finitely powerful, but just the most-powerful & the authority?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 5:05:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:

Power equal to or exceeding all the energy and force in the universe. Now answer my questions, and tell me how a question illustrating a scenario not possible in any metaphysical world relates to our real world?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2014 5:05:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 4:56:50 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:51:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

Basically.
God could be considered "all-powerful" in that there is nothing that exists that could eliminate God or His power, better put God is all-authority.

So God is finitely powerful, but just the most-powerful & the authority?

Sure why not, I think it's impossible for us to define God's attributes though, or in other words His attributes never change regardless of what He does or creates, He is who He is and everything that exists is "underneath" Him.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 5:10:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Because you were making an argument illustrating the falsehood of an all powerful god by using an illogical scenario impossible in any possible world. You were making an appeal to mockery first.

So before you criticize me look at what I wrote, humor can be a good mirror to our own actions.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:12:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:05:44 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:

Power equal to or exceeding all the energy and force in the universe. Now answer my questions, and tell me how a question illustrating a scenario not possible in any metaphysical world relates to our real world?

It means that that definition of omnipotence is nonsensical, as I said in the OP. And it seems to be the definition of omnipotence that most Christians/Muslims/Jews hold.

So you have termed all powerful in brute energy terms, but the issues come from what actions a god might take, or god's 'capabilities' rather than 'power'.

You have also set god as finite being, which again flies in the face of most religious people's interpretations of it.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:14:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:10:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Because you were making an argument illustrating the falsehood of an all powerful god by using an illogical scenario impossible in any possible world. You were making an appeal to mockery first.

So before you criticize me look at what I wrote, humor can be a good mirror to our own actions.

"so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant."

You used unwarranted sarcasm to make your point. Which is what I was responding to. The same cannot be said of the OP.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 5:15:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:12:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:05:44 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:

Power equal to or exceeding all the energy and force in the universe. Now answer my questions, and tell me how a question illustrating a scenario not possible in any metaphysical world relates to our real world?

It means that that definition of omnipotence is nonsensical, as I said in the OP. And it seems to be the definition of omnipotence that most Christians/Muslims/Jews hold.

So you have termed all powerful in brute energy terms, but the issues come from what actions a god might take, or god's 'capabilities' rather than 'power'.

You have also set god as finite being, which again flies in the face of most religious people's interpretations of it.

Still wondering why I should take this impossible scenario seriously as evidence against a possibly real god?

And stop putting words in my mouth. I said equal to or exceeds the power in the universe.

So what equals or exceeds 1. 2 unto infinity in natural numbers. So I did not set a max I set a lower bound to what all-powerful means. That is NOT finite.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:17:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:05:56 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:56:50 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:51:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

Basically.
God could be considered "all-powerful" in that there is nothing that exists that could eliminate God or His power, better put God is all-authority.

So God is finitely powerful, but just the most-powerful & the authority?

Sure why not, I think it's impossible for us to define God's attributes though, or in other words His attributes never change regardless of what He does or creates, He is who He is and everything that exists is "underneath" Him.

Interesting, then why do you think a finite God is worthy of worship?

I mean if I created a mini universe (assuming the technology appears), with concious beings that are 'underneath' me, should those concious beings I created be mandated to worship me?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:19:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:15:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:12:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:05:44 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:

Power equal to or exceeding all the energy and force in the universe. Now answer my questions, and tell me how a question illustrating a scenario not possible in any metaphysical world relates to our real world?

It means that that definition of omnipotence is nonsensical, as I said in the OP. And it seems to be the definition of omnipotence that most Christians/Muslims/Jews hold.

So you have termed all powerful in brute energy terms, but the issues come from what actions a god might take, or god's 'capabilities' rather than 'power'.

You have also set god as finite being, which again flies in the face of most religious people's interpretations of it.


Still wondering why I should take this impossible scenario seriously as evidence against a possibly real god?

It wasn't supposed to be. I don't see why you even think it was supposed to be such.

And stop putting words in my mouth. I said equal to or exceeds the power in the universe.

So what equals or exceeds 1. 2 unto infinity in natural numbers. So I did not set a max I set a lower bound to what all-powerful means. That is NOT finite.

So you are asserting that the universe is infinite?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 5:24:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:19:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:15:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:12:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:05:44 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:

Power equal to or exceeding all the energy and force in the universe. Now answer my questions, and tell me how a question illustrating a scenario not possible in any metaphysical world relates to our real world?

It means that that definition of omnipotence is nonsensical, as I said in the OP. And it seems to be the definition of omnipotence that most Christians/Muslims/Jews hold.

So you have termed all powerful in brute energy terms, but the issues come from what actions a god might take, or god's 'capabilities' rather than 'power'.

You have also set god as finite being, which again flies in the face of most religious people's interpretations of it.


Still wondering why I should take this impossible scenario seriously as evidence against a possibly real god?

It wasn't supposed to be. I don't see why you even think it was supposed to be such.

And stop putting words in my mouth. I said equal to or exceeds the power in the universe.

So what equals or exceeds 1. 2 unto infinity in natural numbers. So I did not set a max I set a lower bound to what all-powerful means. That is NOT finite.

So you are asserting that the universe is infinite?

What no? How do you get that?

1. God's power = or > all the power in the universe

2. X = or > 1

So how much is X? X is an infinity large set.

If God were less than the power in the universe he would not be much of a god. The amount of power in the universe is a lower bound. a lower limit. God can not have 0 power. So what is the least amount of power an all powerful god can have? It is all the power we know of or the universe.

So NO. I'm saying the universe is finite and Gods power is AT LEAST that finite unto infinity.

Capability is a combination of knowledge and strength. So maybe you should have termed this can an all knowing and all powerful god perform this ridiculous impossibility.

Of course the answer would be nonsensical because we as humans KNOW at least one thing for sure is our knowledge is not all encompassing. So you would be making an appeal to ignorance to discern that god does not know how to construct such items to both be true.

Making an answer from a human insufficient and of no authority.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 5:25:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So this impossible scenario has nothing to do with whether an all powerful god is possible or not?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2014 5:30:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:17:02 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:05:56 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:56:50 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:51:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

Basically.
God could be considered "all-powerful" in that there is nothing that exists that could eliminate God or His power, better put God is all-authority.

So God is finitely powerful, but just the most-powerful & the authority?

Sure why not, I think it's impossible for us to define God's attributes though, or in other words His attributes never change regardless of what He does or creates, He is who He is and everything that exists is "underneath" Him.

Interesting, then why do you think a finite God is worthy of worship?

Regardless of your nonsensical defining, God is above all that exists, and if by worship you mean to honor and respect yes, I have no problem with that.

I mean if I created a mini universe (assuming the technology appears), with concious beings that are 'underneath' me, should those concious beings I created be mandated to worship me?

Sure, if by worship you mean to honor and respect, I have no issue with that. Who else would we give honor and glory to for creating the universe besides the creator lol?
Telos
Posts: 85
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6/5/2014 5:30:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
God can't do the logically impossible not because logic subordinates God but rather because anything that's logically impossible literally isnt a thing at all, it's meaningless. It's like asking God to create a round square, the request is about as meaningless as asking God to fabvod.

So all your requests above for God to do, or not, are filled with hidden assumptions which are themselves vacuous of any meaningful content. So any way you spin it omnipotence is simply God's ability to actualize any broadly logical states of affairs.

I hope you can see that these atheistic objections, far from undermining our conception of God, actually shape our conception of him! The bible has left a lot of latitude for philosophers to work out our view of God on rational grounds, at least as best we can until we come to know him personally. But that takes a life time.
Troll List:, DanneJeRusse, bulproof
Mhykiel
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6/5/2014 5:35:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I just find it so arrogant, that someone uses something that is impossible in any and all conceivable possible worlds as reasoning for something not existing in this real world.

Honestly, do you not see the flaw in that reasoning?

Why not make an intelligent argument in which it follows: If this is what actually happens in our real world than a god of this description is impossible.

Because the former, your example, requires dreaming up a sentence structure of 2 opposing word pictures. And the other, the intelligent one, requires a perception of reality that matches closer to THIS reality.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/5/2014 5:38:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:12:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:05:44 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:02:40 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:00:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:57:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:55:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Can an all powerful god make a married bachelor?

Can an all powerful god make a unmovable mountain and hit it with an unstoppable force?

Can an all powerful god do something illogical?

so because one can imagine a fantasy situation in which something becomes impossible it means int he real world a god is impossible? brilliant.

I'm glad truth can so easily be found in day dreams.

I love how you completely fail to address the OP, and at best appeal to mockery.

Thanks I try. But you fail to illustrate how an artificial question pitting 2 mutually exclusive things together relates to a possible god.

Let me ask you a question, In any metaphysical world can it be raining and nothing falling through the air? If it is not possible in any metaphysical world than it is not possible in this actual world. And I imagine not possible for a possibly actual god.

Then address the very first sentence of my OP:

Power equal to or exceeding all the energy and force in the universe. Now answer my questions, and tell me how a question illustrating a scenario not possible in any metaphysical world relates to our real world?

It means that that definition of omnipotence is nonsensical, as I said in the OP. And it seems to be the definition of omnipotence that most Christians/Muslims/Jews hold.

So you have termed all powerful in brute energy terms, but the issues come from what actions a god might take, or god's 'capabilities' rather than 'power'.

You have also set god as finite being, which again flies in the face of most religious people's interpretations of it.

No not really, those "omni" definitions just trick people, they have no real basis in reality other than providing Atheists with a plump strawman.
God is simply above all that exists, not that could exist.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:40:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:35:39 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I just find it so arrogant, that someone uses something that is impossible in any and all conceivable possible worlds as reasoning for something not existing in this real world.

Honestly, do you not see the flaw in that reasoning?

That is actually valid modal reasoning. If something is necessarily impossible, then it doesn't exist.

But in either case I wasn't arguing against the existence of god, you seem to just be giving an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction here.

Why not make an intelligent argument in which it follows: If this is what actually happens in our real world than a god of this description is impossible.

Because the former, your example, requires dreaming up a sentence structure of 2 opposing word pictures. And the other, the intelligent one, requires a perception of reality that matches closer to THIS reality.

Say what?
Mhykiel
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6/5/2014 5:50:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:40:53 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:35:39 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I just find it so arrogant, that someone uses something that is impossible in any and all conceivable possible worlds as reasoning for something not existing in this real world.

Honestly, do you not see the flaw in that reasoning?

That is actually valid modal reasoning. If something is necessarily impossible, then it doesn't exist.

But in either case I wasn't arguing against the existence of god, you seem to just be giving an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction here.

Why not make an intelligent argument in which it follows: If this is what actually happens in our real world than a god of this description is impossible.

Because the former, your example, requires dreaming up a sentence structure of 2 opposing word pictures. And the other, the intelligent one, requires a perception of reality that matches closer to THIS reality.

Say what?

Then you are saying the common definition of all -powerful, as in being able to do whatever they want, is a bad definition.

Duh. Of course it is. It is held only by the most mundane. I don't even know how Christians can adhere to such a definition when it says in the bible: numbers 30:2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

But a bad definition does not make a possible god any less valid. Any one logically thinking of this does not define all-powerful as being so impossible. Even with capability does not mean a God in wisdom actuates everything they are capable of.

So what? in true Atheist fashion you are making a claim about god, but not really saying anything at all meaningful. Yep.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/5/2014 5:55:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:50:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:40:53 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:35:39 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I just find it so arrogant, that someone uses something that is impossible in any and all conceivable possible worlds as reasoning for something not existing in this real world.

Honestly, do you not see the flaw in that reasoning?

That is actually valid modal reasoning. If something is necessarily impossible, then it doesn't exist.

But in either case I wasn't arguing against the existence of god, you seem to just be giving an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction here.

Why not make an intelligent argument in which it follows: If this is what actually happens in our real world than a god of this description is impossible.

Because the former, your example, requires dreaming up a sentence structure of 2 opposing word pictures. And the other, the intelligent one, requires a perception of reality that matches closer to THIS reality.

Say what?

Then you are saying the common definition of all -powerful, as in being able to do whatever they want, is a bad definition.

Duh. Of course it is. It is held only by the most mundane. I don't even know how Christians can adhere to such a definition when it says in the bible: numbers 30:2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

But a bad definition does not make a possible god any less valid. Any one logically thinking of this does not define all-powerful as being so impossible. Even with capability does not mean a God in wisdom actuates everything they are capable of.

So what? in true Atheist fashion you are making a claim about god, but not really saying anything at all meaningful. Yep.

This whole thread it put as a question to people on omnipotence and to theist's interpretation of it. And to show that most interpretations of omnipotence are nonsensical and nothing is omnipotent as I presented it.

It never pretended to be anything more. And I don't appreciate the generalization, either. It seems you hold nothing but animosity judging by your behaviour in this thread.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/5/2014 6:09:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 5:17:02 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 5:05:56 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:56:50 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/5/2014 4:51:00 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

Basically.
God could be considered "all-powerful" in that there is nothing that exists that could eliminate God or His power, better put God is all-authority.

So God is finitely powerful, but just the most-powerful & the authority?

Sure why not, I think it's impossible for us to define God's attributes though, or in other words His attributes never change regardless of what He does or creates, He is who He is and everything that exists is "underneath" Him.

Interesting, then why do you think a finite God is worthy of worship?

I mean if I created a mini universe (assuming the technology appears), with concious beings that are 'underneath' me, should those concious beings I created be mandated to worship me?

If you created a simulation that had conscious entities in it. Why would they not worship you as a God. You would have the power to control anything in the system, following the rules of the system you built.

2nd. If you did so would you try to bring those conscious beings closer to your world and closer to your perceptions? Ever here how in some religions we are children of god and god will make us closer to being like god?

SO no I wouldn't worship something that was less powerful than the universe. But I would worship something that made the universe or had such possible control over it. And certainly something that had the power to great me a different state of being that was above this one. I don't see any flaws in any of that reasoning?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/5/2014 6:41:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"His omnipotence means the power to all that is intrinsically possible,not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. There is no limit to His power.

If you choose to say, 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prifex to them the two other words, 'God can.'

It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.
"
C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

This has always been the standard Christian interpretation of omnipotence (excluding Descartes and a few others). Doesn't seem like nonsense to me in the slightest.

It's like saying that if God can't make green sleep faster than Tuesday he isn't omnipotent.
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Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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6/6/2014 6:23:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So your question is: Can God make something impossible like adding an infinite quality to a finite physical object.

This is a meaningless question as the object in question cannot exist in any reality and is self-contradictory like a married bachelor, circle triangle, or a full-white black cow.

What omnipotence really implies is the ability to actualise every affair. Omnipotence also includes the impossibility of failure. Failure is not part of Omnipotence.
What you are saying is: "Since God is all powerful He can do anything which includes failure!". This is as absurd as saying: "An all powerful being cannot be an all powerful being".
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/7/2014 7:03:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

The old what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object.

Short answer both propositions can't be true (logically speaking).

Most people seem to limit God to the logically possible, so the short answer is no, God defined as such can't make such a force and such an object or such a spear and such a shield.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/11/2014 9:42:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/5/2014 3:41:20 PM, Envisage wrote:
What is your take on omnipotence?

I am actually rather dizzy on where those who believe in an omnipotent God actually stand on the matter. My favourite story that illustrates the problem of omnipotence is as follows:

"An armorer of Chu boldly claims to make the best spears and shields.
"My shields are so strong; they cannot be penetrated by any weapon," he said.
"My spears are so sharp; they can pierce any shield," he further said.

A man asks, "If your spear is thrown at your shield, what then?"
The armorer had no reply."

Could an omnipotent god make either the proposed spear or shield?

If not, then surely that means that an omnipotent god cannot exist.

That and/or the term omnipotence is simply just a philosophically nonsensical term.

So what do you understand about Omnipotence, what have you heard, know? We should first start there. What have others told you and what do know for sure?