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If God exists...

TheINFJPhilosopher
Posts: 15
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6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/6/2014 3:24:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.
Sounds good.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

They don't. Or I don't, I don't believe the way you describe. God had a process of creating just as anyone else would. However, "creationism" is merely an idea, if that's what you mean, it does not suggest scientific data it's more of a concept. Scientific data is recorded by our own research, whereas the idea of creation is just a concept much like the beginning of Genesis.

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.
Toviyah
Posts: 88
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6/6/2014 3:26:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

If God existed": this evidentially tells us how - God is defined as omnipotent and thusly, provided the actual world is a logically possible world, God, a maximally great being, could create the universe ex nihilo through his own will.
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/12/2014 12:28:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

What is your understanding of what GOD(of the Bible) is? HIS character. What is HE like , as you understand HIM? Just so I know where you are coming from.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/12/2014 1:29:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

The story is totally allegorical. Heaven is not a mystical location. It is a state of mind. There is no literal Father figure in the sky named God. He is no more real or literally any kind of "being" than Mother Nature. No person will ever change the world. People cannot change anyone except themselves. The world will always have rich and poor, good and bad, healthy and sick in it.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

Jesus is a mythical character. He never really existed. He is no more Gods son than any other human on Earth. The whole story is figurative.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

These things only happen in fairy tales.
According to science some random chance event created a big bang. Maybe that was God snapping his fingers?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

Most people do a lot of talking and don't say anything anyway.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/14/2014 12:19:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

No reason.
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/14/2014 12:39:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
God is Love. That is the foundation. It is not an attribute of God. God is love. Not the kind that most people know about, but a selfless, thinking about you before myself kind of love. And all doctrine, truth, must be soaked in this, HIS , kind of love or its the wrong understanding of the idea that someone is trying to get across. Example: many believe that you burn forever and ever. But does this kind of torture show or represent,God is love. There will be consequences to my actions, but to torture me for an bizillion years for something I did a few years, does that show a God of love? And the bible does not approve of those who think God is like that.
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/14/2014 1:11:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

Have you read the bible?
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/14/2014 1:28:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.

Oh hey Hitler was nice guy. Glad he didn't start any wars! And to believe you came from soup isn't silly? Ok! Did you study the bible? For debate? Life? Help? For what reason? You are right religion has started a lot of wars. This was not the religion of the author of the bible. Evil men Start wars.
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
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6/14/2014 2:05:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

The simple answer is, that no one who believes in God has the faintest idea how he could or did create the universe. Religion simply does not give you details of that sort.

That said, scientists don't understand exactly how the universe was created either.

That said, science has learned an incredible amount about how the universe, stars and planets were created. Scientists are in fairly good agreement these days that the universe started around 14 billion years ago in the 'Big Bang'. There is solid evidence for this, such as observations that the universe is expanding, and confirmed measurement of the background microwave radiation - Google it, cos it's one of the most beautiful examples of scientific prediction and subsequent confirmation that I know of. We understand planetary motion, and how stars (eg our sun) are formed. Theorists are having a happy time coming up with theories about what caused the Big Bang, such as quantum fluctuations, but at this stage we don't know.
TheINFJPhilosopher
Posts: 15
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6/14/2014 2:52:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 1:11:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

Have you read the bible?

I wish. My atheist father won't let me because he thinks I'm not mature enough to read it yet.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/14/2014 1:06:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 1:28:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.

Oh hey Hitler was nice guy. Glad he didn't start any wars! And to believe you came from soup isn't silly? Ok! Did you study the bible? For debate? Life? Help? For what reason? You are right religion has started a lot of wars. This was not the religion of the author of the bible. Evil men Start wars.

I can't help but love it when theists try to play the Hitler card. How can so many be so sure of what is so completely wrong?
A FEW FACTS TO CONSIDER.


- Hitler was a devout Catholic
- "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - [Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, Private Letter, 1941]
- Hitler stated that he believed he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ in his war on the Jews
- "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude." - [Adolf Hitler, Nazi Christmas Party, 1926]
- Hitler also made numerous statements attacking religion
- When Hitler accidentally evaded an assassination attempt in Munich in 1939, he received personal congratulations from the pope.
- One of Hitler's personal friends was Cardinal Michael Falhauber who was even allowed to visit Hitler in his private hide-away
- Cardinal Falhauber announced to the German Christian people that Hitler was "a man of God".
- Hitler didn't obtain control over Germany by force, he was voted in by a majority Christian public

When you worship a monstrous tyrant who murders en mass, and proclaims it to be for the "greater good", you lose your ability to identify other monstrous tyrants. Christians couldn't tell the difference between Hitler and a character of loving compassion because they worship a God who is worse than Hitler, yet they proclaim him to be loving, merciful and compassionate. The God of the Bible promotes baby-killing, misogyny, genocide, war, rape, bigotry, hatred, censorship, propaganda, lies, the pointless idea of eternal punishment, and world domination. Hitler also promoted baby-killing, genocide, war, bigotry, hatred, propaganda, censorship, lies and world domination. Thus the "good Christians" of Germany voted him into power and very nearly destroyed the world.

Do you understand the difference between the proverbial "primordial soup" and say, Campbells Chicken Noodle? No, to believe that life first emerged from water containing the basic building blocks of life ("soup", as you call it) is utterly sound. To believe some omniscient magician spoke you and the entire universe into existence through some "magic words" is pure lunacy.

I studied the Bible first simply to discover what message, information, claims and stories it held. I became more interested in it as time progressed but ultimately began to study it's origin and history (which you should do), when it became so obvious that it contains stories the likes of which might be expected from a 6-year old with an over-active imagination.

There is no "author" of the Bible. The Bible contains 66 books, written by an unknown number of authors (clearly more than 40). And various texts within it promote war as the key to wiping out evil. And yet, war is evil. You can fight fire with fire, but in attempting to counter evil with evil, you simply generate more evil. Religion always leads to war. It always has, and for as long as men cling to it, it will continue to lead to needless, pointless and grotesque war. "We can easily expect good things from a good man, as we can expect evil things from an evil man. But for a good man to do evil... that requires religion".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/14/2014 1:41:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 2:05:59 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:

That said, scientists don't understand exactly how the universe was created either.
That said, it should be understood that it most likely wasn't "created". It was transformed, but not created. One of the most fundamental laws of physics is the First Law of Thermodynamics. The law states that matter/energy can be neither created, nor destroyed. And many theists attempt to claim that this is given as a property of the universe, but it is a property of matter/energy, not of the universe.

And since matter/energy can't be created, yet it exists; it is logical to conclude that it has always existed. Somehow this seems implausible to theists. They can imagine a point of absolute nothingness (aside from their God for whom there is no evidence), and yet they live in a world of matter and energy. How one goes from everything existing to nothing existing as a starting point simply defies all logic. If it exists, and can't be created, then it always existed. And we have no evidence suggesting that it ever didn't.

However, because matter and energy are two forms of the same thing, it's possible that the entire universe once existed simply as energy, with no property of volume. And from that energy could emerge the universe of today. Were such a massive transformation from pure energy to matter/energy to occur, it would likely manifest as something as dramatic and intense as big-bang.

That said, science has learned an incredible amount about how the universe, stars and planets were created. Scientists are in fairly good agreement these days that the universe started around 14 billion years ago in the 'Big Bang'. There is solid evidence for this, such as observations that the universe is expanding, and confirmed measurement of the background microwave radiation - Google it, cos it's one of the most beautiful examples of scientific prediction and subsequent confirmation that I know of. We understand planetary motion, and how stars (eg our sun) are formed. Theorists are having a happy time coming up with theories about what caused the Big Bang, such as quantum fluctuations, but at this stage we don't know.
Actually, no version of big-bang cosmology of which I'm aware begins with nothing. All of them start with something pre-existing, such as a singularity, pure energy, or brane-worlds.

Overall I agree with everything you said and I echo your statements.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/14/2014 2:21:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

Religion is not the primary motivator of war. I already pointed out the French Revolution with the Jacobin party, and the Cambodian Genocides by the Khmer Rouge as examples.

Propaganda to instill compliance has used religious messages and atheistic or secular messages to accomplish support for a war. But the primary motivations for war, HAVE and WILL ALWAYS be political and economical.

You would do well to study war before remarking on it.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.

And when this idea of your including Quantum Gravity and fluctuations is shown to be erroneous and seriously lacking plausibility, you will turn and say no one was there, no one can know what the start of the universe was.

You can not prove wrong that God spoke and made the universe. You can not prove or even make one logically sound argument God does not exist. You have no evidence to what cause the big bang to happen. So you are just talking out for the sake of spreading your atheist agenda.

Maybe you would like to keep your meanderings on the creation of this universe in the science forum. Clearly the OP was asking for an answer from religious people.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/14/2014 2:37:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

It seems you already have an opinion on the morality of tattoos, abortion, long hair, etc.. and are under the impression that the Christian God is against all these things.

I think of those come from a misreading of scripture. I would say the christian God is against homosexuality and abortion. Also I do not think the scripture support a heaven of dead people and hell of the damned being in existence right now. Nor do I think heaven is the abode for human souls in the afterlife. I think we die, go into the grave, and our souls await resurrection.

Speaking is the act of causing an audible understandable vibration of air molecules. This could be a metaphorical explanation to God causing a vibration in the universal singularity. If this vibration is of a greater fluctuation than the singularity could absorb it would have caused an expansion we see as the big bang.

Essentially I am arguing that there is no force internal to the universe at the state of it being a singularity capable of causing it to transition into the expanding observable universe we see today.

God as a creator and then sit back and let it run, is modern deism. A god that intervenes in a human life is Classical Deism. But generally speaking a god spoke to someone is a revelation and such things if not denied by a classical deist are counted as untrustworthy.

I would say God intervenes, and can be personal. But he only does things to accomplish his will. And I don't think we can know what that will is. I suspect he rewards those that seek after him (god is not make or female forgive the male pronoun), and that his will is superior to human desires.

But I also think most if not all the problems like starvation, war, and crime are man made and are a result of our free will combined with our selfish and violent tendencies.
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/15/2014 10:26:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 1:06:27 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:28:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.

Oh hey Hitler was nice guy. Glad he didn't start any wars! And to believe you came from soup isn't silly? Ok! Did you study the bible? For debate? Life? Help? For what reason? You are right religion has started a lot of wars. This was not the religion of the author of the bible. Evil men Start wars.

I can't help but love it when theists try to play the Hitler card. How can so many be so sure of what is so completely wrong?
A FEW FACTS TO CONSIDER.


- Hitler was a devout Catholic
- "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - [Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, Private Letter, 1941]
- Hitler stated that he believed he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ in his war on the Jews
- "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude." - [Adolf Hitler, Nazi Christmas Party, 1926]
- Hitler also made numerous statements attacking religion
- When Hitler accidentally evaded an assassination attempt in Munich in 1939, he received personal congratulations from the pope.
- One of Hitler's personal friends was Cardinal Michael Falhauber who was even allowed to visit Hitler in his private hide-away
- Cardinal Falhauber announced to the German Christian people that Hitler was "a man of God".
- Hitler didn't obtain control over Germany by force, he was voted in by a majority Christian public

When you worship a monstrous tyrant who murders en mass, and proclaims it to be for the "greater good", you lose your ability to identify other monstrous tyrants. Christians couldn't tell the difference between Hitler and a character of loving compassion because they worship a God who is worse than Hitler, yet they proclaim him to be loving, merciful and compassionate. The God of the Bible promotes baby-killing, misogyny, genocide, war, rape, bigotry, hatred, censorship, propaganda, lies, the pointless idea of eternal punishment, and world domination. Hitler also promoted baby-killing, genocide, war, bigotry, hatred, propaganda, censorship, lies and world domination. Thus the "good Christians" of Germany voted him into power and very nearly destroyed the world.

Do you understand the difference between the proverbial "primordial soup" and say, Campbells Chicken Noodle? No, to believe that life first emerged from water containing the basic building blocks of life ("soup", as you call it) is utterly sound. To believe some omniscient magician spoke you and the entire universe into existence through some "magic words" is pure lunacy.

I studied the Bible first simply to discover what message, information, claims and stories it held. I became more interested in it as time progressed but ultimately began to study it's origin and history (which you should do), when it became so obvious that it contains stories the likes of which might be expected from a 6-year old with an over-active imagination.

There is no "author" of the Bible. The Bible contains 66 books, written by an unknown number of authors (clearly more than 40). And various texts within it promote war as the key to wiping out evil. And yet, war is evil. You can fight fire with fire, but in attempting to counter evil with evil, you simply generate more evil. Religion always leads to war. It always has, and for as long as men cling to it, it will continue to lead to needless, pointless and grotesque war. "We can easily expect good things from a good man, as we can expect evil things from an evil man. But for a good man to do evil... that requires religion".

I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian? A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim. So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war? I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/15/2014 10:39:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 2:52:18 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:11:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

Have you read the bible?

I wish. My atheist father won't let me because he thinks I'm not mature enough to read it yet.

How can you have an opinion on something you never have read? It's not a R rated book anyone can buy one, no age limit, sometimes they give them away free. Sorry I just don't get it. And yet you can talk about it, how is that? What if I wrote it out to you? Would you have to stop going on this debate?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/15/2014 10:44:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 10:26:00 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:06:27 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:28:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.

Oh hey Hitler was nice guy. Glad he didn't start any wars! And to believe you came from soup isn't silly? Ok! Did you study the bible? For debate? Life? Help? For what reason? You are right religion has started a lot of wars. This was not the religion of the author of the bible. Evil men Start wars.

I can't help but love it when theists try to play the Hitler card. How can so many be so sure of what is so completely wrong?
A FEW FACTS TO CONSIDER.


- Hitler was a devout Catholic
- "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - [Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, Private Letter, 1941]
- Hitler stated that he believed he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ in his war on the Jews
- "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude." - [Adolf Hitler, Nazi Christmas Party, 1926]
- Hitler also made numerous statements attacking religion
- When Hitler accidentally evaded an assassination attempt in Munich in 1939, he received personal congratulations from the pope.
- One of Hitler's personal friends was Cardinal Michael Falhauber who was even allowed to visit Hitler in his private hide-away
- Cardinal Falhauber announced to the German Christian people that Hitler was "a man of God".
- Hitler didn't obtain control over Germany by force, he was voted in by a majority Christian public

When you worship a monstrous tyrant who murders en mass, and proclaims it to be for the "greater good", you lose your ability to identify other monstrous tyrants. Christians couldn't tell the difference between Hitler and a character of loving compassion because they worship a God who is worse than Hitler, yet they proclaim him to be loving, merciful and compassionate. The God of the Bible promotes baby-killing, misogyny, genocide, war, rape, bigotry, hatred, censorship, propaganda, lies, the pointless idea of eternal punishment, and world domination. Hitler also promoted baby-killing, genocide, war, bigotry, hatred, propaganda, censorship, lies and world domination. Thus the "good Christians" of Germany voted him into power and very nearly destroyed the world.

Do you understand the difference between the proverbial "primordial soup" and say, Campbells Chicken Noodle? No, to believe that life first emerged from water containing the basic building blocks of life ("soup", as you call it) is utterly sound. To believe some omniscient magician spoke you and the entire universe into existence through some "magic words" is pure lunacy.

I studied the Bible first simply to discover what message, information, claims and stories it held. I became more interested in it as time progressed but ultimately began to study it's origin and history (which you should do), when it became so obvious that it contains stories the likes of which might be expected from a 6-year old with an over-active imagination.

There is no "author" of the Bible. The Bible contains 66 books, written by an unknown number of authors (clearly more than 40). And various texts within it promote war as the key to wiping out evil. And yet, war is evil. You can fight fire with fire, but in attempting to counter evil with evil, you simply generate more evil. Religion always leads to war. It always has, and for as long as men cling to it, it will continue to lead to needless, pointless and grotesque war. "We can easily expect good things from a good man, as we can expect evil things from an evil man. But for a good man to do evil... that requires religion".

I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/15/2014 10:50:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 10:44:08 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:26:00 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:06:27 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:28:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 8:43:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/6/2014 3:09:46 PM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
Right now, I am agnostic. However, if the "Heaven is for Real" story is true, I would be a deist. I would believe God created the world, then sat back and watched like it was a movie. Why? Because no matter how much he wants to help the ones in need and the ones affected by prejudice and war, it would makes sense that he would want us to learn on our own the morals of life. I would believe he would only send messages to the ones he can truly trust to change the world, and then he can see how the people will react to that person's beliefs.

If Jesus existed, I believed that maybe he wasn't literally God's son, but figuratively his son because of his infinite wisdom. And if the stories of Jesus being loving, accepting gays, not judging by long hair on men, short hair on women, belief jn other Gods, tattoos, premarital sex (I think he would disagree with it, but let them live their life), against abortion and sexism, etc.

But besides that, I want to ask everyone here, whether they are religious or not: If God existed, then how could someone create a universe with a snap of their fingers like a fairy godparent? How can you explain that?

Please do not give me the "just because" argument. That doesn't tell me anything.

I'M an atheist and anti-theist who has studied religion and connected fields for just over a decade. Religion is a primary motivator for war, clearly false, and only helps to retard mankind.

What exists now has always existed. That doesn't mean it has always maintained its present form. If we look to Einstein's most famous equation (E=MC^2), we see that energy and matter are two forms of the same thing. That means the entire universe could be converted to matter. It would still exist and clearly be in a physical form (since energy is physical), but it would not require space as energy has no volume. Big-bang was most likely, the conversion process of a great deal of energy, into matter. The idea of a God creating the universe by "speaking it into existence", snapping his metaphorical fingers or any other method is basically, just a way of saying "I don't know". And of course none of know for certain but the idea of a creator God is beyond silly.

Oh hey Hitler was nice guy. Glad he didn't start any wars! And to believe you came from soup isn't silly? Ok! Did you study the bible? For debate? Life? Help? For what reason? You are right religion has started a lot of wars. This was not the religion of the author of the bible. Evil men Start wars.

I can't help but love it when theists try to play the Hitler card. How can so many be so sure of what is so completely wrong?
A FEW FACTS TO CONSIDER.


- Hitler was a devout Catholic
- "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - [Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, Private Letter, 1941]
- Hitler stated that he believed he was continuing the work of Jesus Christ in his war on the Jews
- "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude." - [Adolf Hitler, Nazi Christmas Party, 1926]
- Hitler also made numerous statements attacking religion
- When Hitler accidentally evaded an assassination attempt in Munich in 1939, he received personal congratulations from the pope.
- One of Hitler's personal friends was Cardinal Michael Falhauber who was even allowed to visit Hitler in his private hide-away
- Cardinal Falhauber announced to the German Christian people that Hitler was "a man of God".
- Hitler didn't obtain control over Germany by force, he was voted in by a majority Christian public

When you worship a monstrous tyrant who murders en mass, and proclaims it to be for the "greater good", you lose your ability to identify other monstrous tyrants. Christians couldn't tell the difference between Hitler and a character of loving compassion because they worship a God who is worse than Hitler, yet they proclaim him to be loving, merciful and compassionate. The God of the Bible promotes baby-killing, misogyny, genocide, war, rape, bigotry, hatred, censorship, propaganda, lies, the pointless idea of eternal punishment, and world domination. Hitler also promoted baby-killing, genocide, war, bigotry, hatred, propaganda, censorship, lies and world domination. Thus the "good Christians" of Germany voted him into power and very nearly destroyed the world.

Do you understand the difference between the proverbial "primordial soup" and say, Campbells Chicken Noodle? No, to believe that life first emerged from water containing the basic building blocks of life ("soup", as you call it) is utterly sound. To believe some omniscient magician spoke you and the entire universe into existence through some "magic words" is pure lunacy.

I studied the Bible first simply to discover what message, information, claims and stories it held. I became more interested in it as time progressed but ultimately began to study it's origin and history (which you should do), when it became so obvious that it contains stories the likes of which might be expected from a 6-year old with an over-active imagination.

There is no "author" of the Bible. The Bible contains 66 books, written by an unknown number of authors (clearly more than 40). And various texts within it promote war as the key to wiping out evil. And yet, war is evil. You can fight fire with fire, but in attempting to counter evil with evil, you simply generate more evil. Religion always leads to war. It always has, and for as long as men cling to it, it will continue to lead to needless, pointless and grotesque war. "We can easily expect good things from a good man, as we can expect evil things from an evil man. But for a good man to do evil... that requires religion".

I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.

Sorry! Book, chapter, verse, is that better! Text=meaning the same as, book, chapter, verse. Just a shorter way.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/15/2014 10:52:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 10:39:18 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/14/2014 2:52:18 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:11:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

Have you read the bible?

I wish. My atheist father won't let me because he thinks I'm not mature enough to read it yet.

How can you have an opinion on something you never have read?
Christians (especially Creationists) do this all of the time. Especially when referencing big-bang, abiogenesis and evolution.

It's not a R rated book
But based on the violence barbarity, slavery, child-killing and abuse of women (mostly attributable to God), perhaps it should be.

anyone can buy one, no age limit, sometimes they give them away free.
A price which reflects the true value! What will they think of next?

Sorry I just don't get it.
Agreed

And yet you can talk about it, how is that? What if I wrote it out to you? Would you have to stop going on this debate?
Let me ask you something; can you walk me through the origin of the Bible? If you read "Little Red Riding Hood", didn't know it was fiction, and had been assured by your parents, friends, teachers, clergy and society that it was true, how clearly would you understand it?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/15/2014 10:56:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 10:50:24 PM, Measure wrote:
Beastt wrote:
I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.

Sorry! Book, chapter, verse, is that better

Just so I'm clear; you need me to show you where the Bible promotes war? I thought you were suggesting that you've read it. I'll be more than happy to do so, but given that you claim to know the BIble, I want to be certain that's what you're asking.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/15/2014 11:04:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 10:52:54 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:39:18 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/14/2014 2:52:18 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:11:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

Have you read the bible?

I wish. My atheist father won't let me because he thinks I'm not mature enough to read it yet.

How can you have an opinion on something you never have read?
Christians (especially Creationists) do this all of the time. Especially when referencing big-bang, abiogenesis and evolution.

It's not a R rated book
But based on the violence barbarity, slavery, child-killing and abuse of women (mostly attributable to God), perhaps it should be.

anyone can buy one, no age limit, sometimes they give them away free.
A price which reflects the true value! What will they think of next?

Sorry I just don't get it.
Agreed

And yet you can talk about it, how is that? What if I wrote it out to you? Would you have to stop going on this debate?
Let me ask you something; can you walk me through the origin of the Bible? If you read "Little Red Riding Hood", didn't know it was fiction, and had been assured by your parents, friends, teachers, clergy and society that it was true, how clearly would you understand it?

Sorry, this is not addressed to you.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/15/2014 11:10:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 11:04:39 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:52:54 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:39:18 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/14/2014 2:52:18 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:11:41 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/13/2014 10:44:17 AM, TheINFJPhilosopher wrote:
At 6/12/2014 12:30:25 AM, Measure wrote:
Are you actually 15?

Yes.

Why?

Have you read the bible?

I wish. My atheist father won't let me because he thinks I'm not mature enough to read it yet.

How can you have an opinion on something you never have read?
Christians (especially Creationists) do this all of the time. Especially when referencing big-bang, abiogenesis and evolution.

It's not a R rated book
But based on the violence barbarity, slavery, child-killing and abuse of women (mostly attributable to God), perhaps it should be.

anyone can buy one, no age limit, sometimes they give them away free.
A price which reflects the true value! What will they think of next?

Sorry I just don't get it.
Agreed

And yet you can talk about it, how is that? What if I wrote it out to you? Would you have to stop going on this debate?
Let me ask you something; can you walk me through the origin of the Bible? If you read "Little Red Riding Hood", didn't know it was fiction, and had been assured by your parents, friends, teachers, clergy and society that it was true, how clearly would you understand it?

Sorry, this is not addressed to you.

I'm aware of that. I chose to respond to it anyway. Please answer my question.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/15/2014 11:12:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 10:56:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:50:24 PM, Measure wrote:
Beastt wrote:
I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.

Sorry! Book, chapter, verse, is that better

Just so I'm clear; you need me to show you where the Bible promotes war? I thought you were suggesting that you've read it. I'll be more than happy to do so, but given that you claim to know the BIble, I want to be certain that's what you're asking.

Yeh, I'm not very with it, so can you help me, and tell me the places in the Bible where you find it, ok , thanks!
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/15/2014 11:39:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 11:12:56 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:56:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:50:24 PM, Measure wrote:
Beastt wrote:
I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.

Sorry! Book, chapter, verse, is that better

Just so I'm clear; you need me to show you where the Bible promotes war? I thought you were suggesting that you've read it. I'll be more than happy to do so, but given that you claim to know the BIble, I want to be certain that's what you're asking.

Yeh, I'm not very with it, so can you help me, and tell me the places in the Bible where you find it, ok , thanks!

My question was in regard to what you wanted from the Bible. So I'll assume you're asking for Bible verses which promote war (which you seem to think it doesn't contain).

And before I post them; understand that I'm not looking for you to try to justify them. It's not about that. You were suggesting that no Christian religion would promote war. So take a look...

(Deuteronomy 13:15) "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

(I Samuel 15:2-3) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a-s-s." (Stupid STUPID profanity filter! What a bunch of children!)

(Numbers 31:16-18) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

(This is more about a threat of the immoral barbarity God will instruct his armies to carry out.)
(Isaiah 13:15-16) "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

(Ezekiel 9:5-6) "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

(Not exactly war in this one, but a directive to rejoice at the death of others.)
(Psalms 58:10) "The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

(Exodus 32:27) "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

That is your "loving" God.

And it's not just war we find "God" promoting in these verses. He's also promoting the rape of women, kidnapping of virgin girls, infanticide, slaughtering children as their parents watch, and even taking out vengeance upon pets and livestock. What kind of idiot blames the animals for what the people do?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Measure
Posts: 142
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6/16/2014 12:22:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 11:39:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 11:12:56 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:56:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:50:24 PM, Measure wrote:
Beastt wrote:
I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.

Sorry! Book, chapter, verse, is that better

Just so I'm clear; you need me to show you where the Bible promotes war? I thought you were suggesting that you've read it. I'll be more than happy to do so, but given that you claim to know the BIble, I want to be certain that's what you're asking.

Yeh, I'm not very with it, so can you help me, and tell me the places in the Bible where you find it, ok , thanks!

My question was in regard to what you wanted from the Bible. So I'll assume you're asking for Bible verses which promote war (which you seem to think it doesn't contain).

And before I post them; understand that I'm not looking for you to try to justify them. It's not about that. You were suggesting that no Christian religion would promote war. So take a look...

(Deuteronomy 13:15) "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

(I Samuel 15:2-3) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a-s-s." (Stupid STUPID profanity filter! What a bunch of children!)

(Numbers 31:16-18) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

(This is more about a threat of the immoral barbarity God will instruct his armies to carry out.)
(Isaiah 13:15-16) "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

(Ezekiel 9:5-6) "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

(Not exactly war in this one, but a directive to rejoice at the death of others.)
(Psalms 58:10) "The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

(Exodus 32:27) "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

That is your "loving" God.

And it's not just war we find "God" promoting in these verses. He's also promoting the rape of women, kidnapping of virgin girls, infanticide, slaughtering children as their parents watch, and even taking out vengeance upon pets and livestock. What kind of idiot blames the animals for what the people do?

You assume much. Since you don't want any justifying of any of the texts that you used, you have all ready made up your mind, you know the context and all that goes with it. The state kills its own people. This is also a true statement but without some history we will take it that it hates it citizens, the background, would be the understanding of the statement. But since you just what the statement, without the understanding of the statement, you can have at it. Then throw in," That is your loving God" without wanting any understanding, is just sad, but your choice.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/16/2014 12:29:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 12:22:38 AM, Measure wrote:
At 6/15/2014 11:39:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 11:12:56 PM, Measure wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:56:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/15/2014 10:50:24 PM, Measure wrote:
Beastt wrote:
I agree Hitler was a catholic,, but a christian?
Catholic is a Christian denomination.

A religion that starts wars is not christian no matter what they claim.
And who made that rule? If that were true, then no religion would be Christian. They all start wars. Check out the combatants in even many contemporary wars.

CONTEMPORARY WARS
- Palestine (Jews v. Muslims)
- The Balkans (Orthodox Serbians v. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims)
- Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics)
- Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus)
- Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists)
- Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians)
- Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims v. Christians)
- Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hindus)
- Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorese Christians)
- The Caucasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians)

So Japan and Italy would also be christian nations starting war?
Anyone of any religion can start a war. That's one of the things religions do best.

I don't see any text from the bible. Mind humoring me?
Are you serious? A "text" isn't just a written message sent with a cell phone. A "text" also means a book, or manuscript, or any kind of writing.

Sorry! Book, chapter, verse, is that better

Just so I'm clear; you need me to show you where the Bible promotes war? I thought you were suggesting that you've read it. I'll be more than happy to do so, but given that you claim to know the BIble, I want to be certain that's what you're asking.

Yeh, I'm not very with it, so can you help me, and tell me the places in the Bible where you find it, ok , thanks!

My question was in regard to what you wanted from the Bible. So I'll assume you're asking for Bible verses which promote war (which you seem to think it doesn't contain).

And before I post them; understand that I'm not looking for you to try to justify them. It's not about that. You were suggesting that no Christian religion would promote war. So take a look...

(Deuteronomy 13:15) "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

(I Samuel 15:2-3) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a-s-s." (Stupid STUPID profanity filter! What a bunch of children!)

(Numbers 31:16-18) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

(This is more about a threat of the immoral barbarity God will instruct his armies to carry out.)
(Isaiah 13:15-16) "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

(Ezekiel 9:5-6) "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."

(Not exactly war in this one, but a directive to rejoice at the death of others.)
(Psalms 58:10) "The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

(Exodus 32:27) "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."

That is your "loving" God.

And it's not just war we find "God" promoting in these verses. He's also promoting the rape of women, kidnapping of virgin girls, infanticide, slaughtering children as their parents watch, and even taking out vengeance upon pets and livestock. What kind of idiot blames the animals for what the people do?

You assume much. Since you don't want any justifying of any of the texts that you used, you have all ready made up your mind, you know the context and all that goes with it. The state kills its own people. This is also a true statement but without some history we will take it that it hates it citizens, the background, would be the understanding of the statement. But since you just what the statement, without the understanding of the statement, you can have at it. Then throw in," That is your loving God" without wanting any understanding, is just sad, but your choice.

You seem to forget that YOU were the one who claimed that no Christian religion could start a war. Obviously, Christianity is based upon a book which DOES promote war. That's the point here. All of you're rhetoric about capital punishment is an attempt to evade the reality that the Bible DOES PROMOTE WAR. Religion does promote war. Christians DO PROMOTE WAR!

Are you willing to concede to that point?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire