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Does your god have free will?

bulproof
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6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/9/2014 10:26:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If a. God is omnibenevolent then I don't see how it can.

Since all actions must be made to achieve the greatest possible good, lest god will no longer be omnibenebpvolent (or will violate it's own nature)
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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6/9/2014 1:05:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Funny, I actually wrote a paper on this subject. By definition of the Imago Dei, God is required to have free will, but is not required to be omnibenevolent.
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Envisage
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6/9/2014 1:06:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 1:05:08 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Funny, I actually wrote a paper on this subject. By definition of the Imago Dei, God is required to have free will, but is not required to be omnibenevolent.

Let's see it :-D
Such
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6/9/2014 1:09:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

I'm really not so sure my God creates me at all, actually.

If anything, then by proxy.

But, ultimately, it seems to be a mechanism of either what God created, of God Himself that manifested me.
Ragnar
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6/9/2014 1:25:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

Surprisingly, of all the things to complain about, a couple Christians (here, not any educated ones at school) actually complained about the notion of God not being a slave.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
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12_13
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6/9/2014 1:27:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

I believe my God, which is the Bible God, has free will, because I don"t know any good reason not to believe so.
Mhykiel
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6/9/2014 1:28:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 1:05:08 PM, Ragnar wrote:
Funny, I actually wrote a paper on this subject. By definition of the Imago Dei, God is required to have free will, but is not required to be omnibenevolent.

I can agree with this. Even if God was omnibenevolent who is to say what the greater good is?

How far into the future do you go to say, yes this event did the greater good of all posible scenerios.

Would an omnibenevolent god wipe out the dinosaurs so Jesus could be born in a world controlled by humans? That is not good for the dinosaurs.

Would an omnibenevolent god give mankind free will knowing how much they mess stuff up? That is not good for the rest of the world?

No clearly god is about doing what needs to be done to get his Will done. What a selfish gawd.
popculturepooka
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6/9/2014 4:56:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?

Yes.

Is your god obligated to create you?

No.

Can your god decide not to create you?

yes.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/9/2014 6:25:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think God is free will in the compatibilist sense. That is, he always does exactly what he wants to do.

Psalm 115:3 "But our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases."

Psalm 135:6 "Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."

Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?

Yes, but his decision is always determined by his desire.

Is your god obligated to create you?

No.

Can your god decide not to create you?

He can if he wants to.

"Does God Have Free Will?" by Philochristos
http://philochristos.blogspot.com...
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Beastt
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6/9/2014 6:39:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 1:27:06 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I believe my God, which is the Bible God, has free will, because I don"t know any good reason not to believe so.

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the God of the Bible. Can he ever do the "wrong" thing? Was creating Satan (as the Bible claims), the "right" thing? If God is both perfect and omni-benevolent, then he can never make any choices at all. His choices are already made for him by the need to always do the right and "perfect" thing, which will lead to the most beneficial outcome.

The God of the Bible cannot make choices.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/9/2014 6:56:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 6:39:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/9/2014 1:27:06 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I believe my God, which is the Bible God, has free will, because I don"t know any good reason not to believe so.

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the God of the Bible. Can he ever do the "wrong" thing? Was creating Satan (as the Bible claims), the "right" thing? If God is both perfect and omni-benevolent, then he can never make any choices at all. His choices are already made for him by the need to always do the right and "perfect" thing, which will lead to the most beneficial outcome.

The God of the Bible cannot make choices.

Where do you get this ridiculous idea? Do you think that is logic?

A God does not have free will because his perfect nature means he will make the right choices?

So if there is a person who has a perfect calculating mind, They don't have free will because the answer to any math problem given they will always answer the right answer?

So a Guy who is a perfect soccer player is not a soccer athlete because when ever they play they will always play and win with the best game possible?

A person who is a perfect pacifist is not peaceful because they will always choose to do no harm?

So normal people only have free will because they can if they want choose to be a mass murderer? That their honorable nature makes their honesty less valuable?

Please explain to me how a beings nature or personality makes decision making robotic and not real?
PeacefulChaos
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6/9/2014 7:14:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

God transcends such concepts as choice or decision.
n7
Posts: 1,360
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6/9/2014 9:01:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:26:23 AM, Envisage wrote:
If a. God is omnibenevolent then I don't see how it can.

Since all actions must be made to achieve the greatest possible good, lest god will no longer be omnibenebpvolent (or will violate it's own nature)

Unless God is not bound to do good. He just always does it. I'm not bound to go on DDO, but I do. In that case, if there is a god, let's hope he keeps preferring good.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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6/9/2014 9:14:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 9:01:24 PM, n7 wrote:
At 6/9/2014 10:26:23 AM, Envisage wrote:
If a. God is omnibenevolent then I don't see how it can.

Since all actions must be made to achieve the greatest possible good, lest god will no longer be omnibenebpvolent (or will violate it's own nature)

Unless God is not bound to do good. He just always does it. I'm not bound to go on DDO, but I do. In that case, if there is a god, let's hope he keeps preferring good.

I see little evidence that he does. :)
Beastt
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6/10/2014 4:49:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 6:56:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/9/2014 6:39:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/9/2014 1:27:06 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I believe my God, which is the Bible God, has free will, because I don"t know any good reason not to believe so.

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the God of the Bible. Can he ever do the "wrong" thing? Was creating Satan (as the Bible claims), the "right" thing? If God is both perfect and omni-benevolent, then he can never make any choices at all. His choices are already made for him by the need to always do the right and "perfect" thing, which will lead to the most beneficial outcome.

The God of the Bible cannot make choices.

Where do you get this ridiculous idea? Do you think that is logic?

A God does not have free will because his perfect nature means he will make the right choices?

So if there is a person who has a perfect calculating mind, They don't have free will because the answer to any math problem given they will always answer the right answer?

So a Guy who is a perfect soccer player is not a soccer athlete because when ever they play they will always play and win with the best game possible?

A person who is a perfect pacifist is not peaceful because they will always choose to do no harm?

So normal people only have free will because they can if they want choose to be a mass murderer? That their honorable nature makes their honesty less valuable?

Please explain to me how a beings nature or personality makes decision making robotic and not real?

Yes, it is logic but in the many examples you've provided showing your inability when it comes to logic, I can understand why you might not understand.

Your perfect mathematician cannot choose an answer. The reality of the mathematical model chooses the answer for him. That's how we know if the answer provided is correct.

The "perfect" soccer player can't simply choose to do whatever he wants, he must always take only the action which leads to the best outcome.

Perfection doesn't have levels. You can't be close to the mark, and still hold a claim of being perfect. You have to be dead-on the mark. And if God is perfect and always does the best thing, then he doesn't get to choose what it is he wants to do, he must do what is best.

Let me give you a little example. Suppose you're in a motel fire and your youngest child is caught in the flames. You barely have enough time to reach them and save them. But you can also see several dozen people caught behind a door which only unlocks from your side, and if you run to the door and unlock it, it will be too late to save your child. You want to save your child. Any decent parent would. But you also realize that if you do, several dozen people will perish. You could save your child and plea that you're a loving parent and couldn't allow yourself to not save them. But then you chose to save one life, when you could have saved dozens. So the best and most logical decision is already made for you. You don't get to choose what you want to do, you must do what the situation dictates. if you don't, you have no claim to having made the best decision. We can understand why you might choose to save your own child while dozens die, but you can't save your child, allow dozens of people to die, and still make a valid claim to have made the best decision. The best decision was dictated by the circumstances.

if God chooses what he wants, rather than what is best, then the decision is dictated by the circumstances and God can't choose. The choice is made for him by his need to always do the perfect thing. And yet... look around you! This is the very best your perfect God can do. These are the results one might expect from an office temp with a bad attitude, not some perfect God with unlimited power.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
s-anthony
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6/10/2014 8:07:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

If God is good, then, God is defined by an inability to do evil. Values, such as good and evil, are defined by the appraiser; so, God can, or cannot, do something, only, in the minds of sentient beings.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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6/10/2014 8:26:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 8:07:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

If God is good, then, God is defined by an inability to do evil. Values, such as good and evil, are defined by the appraiser; so, God can, or cannot, do something, only, in the minds of sentient beings.

Would you like to explain this, minus the errant punctuation marks?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/10/2014 8:34:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 4:49:33 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/9/2014 6:56:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/9/2014 6:39:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/9/2014 1:27:06 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I believe my God, which is the Bible God, has free will, because I don"t know any good reason not to believe so.

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the God of the Bible. Can he ever do the "wrong" thing? Was creating Satan (as the Bible claims), the "right" thing? If God is both perfect and omni-benevolent, then he can never make any choices at all. His choices are already made for him by the need to always do the right and "perfect" thing, which will lead to the most beneficial outcome.

The God of the Bible cannot make choices.

Where do you get this ridiculous idea? Do you think that is logic?

A God does not have free will because his perfect nature means he will make the right choices?

So if there is a person who has a perfect calculating mind, They don't have free will because the answer to any math problem given they will always answer the right answer?

So a Guy who is a perfect soccer player is not a soccer athlete because when ever they play they will always play and win with the best game possible?

A person who is a perfect pacifist is not peaceful because they will always choose to do no harm?

So normal people only have free will because they can if they want choose to be a mass murderer? That their honorable nature makes their honesty less valuable?

Please explain to me how a beings nature or personality makes decision making robotic and not real?

Yes, it is logic but in the many examples you've provided showing your inability when it comes to logic, I can understand why you might not understand.

Your perfect mathematician cannot choose an answer. The reality of the mathematical model chooses the answer for him. That's how we know if the answer provided is correct.

The "perfect" soccer player can't simply choose to do whatever he wants, he must always take only the action which leads to the best outcome.

Perfection doesn't have levels. You can't be close to the mark, and still hold a claim of being perfect. You have to be dead-on the mark. And if God is perfect and always does the best thing, then he doesn't get to choose what it is he wants to do, he must do what is best.

Let me give you a little example. Suppose you're in a motel fire and your youngest child is caught in the flames. You barely have enough time to reach them and save them. But you can also see several dozen people caught behind a door which only unlocks from your side, and if you run to the door and unlock it, it will be too late to save your child. You want to save your child. Any decent parent would. But you also realize that if you do, several dozen people will perish. You could save your child and plea that you're a loving parent and couldn't allow yourself to not save them. But then you chose to save one life, when you could have saved dozens. So the best and most logical decision is already made for you. You don't get to choose what you want to do, you must do what the situation dictates. if you don't, you have no claim to having made the best decision. We can understand why you might choose to save your own child while dozens die, but you can't save your child, allow dozens of people to die, and still make a valid claim to have made the best decision. The best decision was dictated by the circumstances.

if God chooses what he wants, rather than what is best, then the decision is dictated by the circumstances and God can't choose. The choice is made for him by his need to always do the perfect thing. And yet... look around you! This is the very best your perfect God can do. These are the results one might expect from an office temp with a bad attitude, not some perfect God with unlimited power.

My examples show the illogical reasoning you use.

Free will is the freedom to choose. Nothing more.

IF a person falls off a building they have no choice but to continue falling. They have no free will in the matter to stop themselves.

If a mathematician continuously chooses the correct answer they become a perfect mathematician they still have the ability to choose incorrectly.

God continuously choose the perfectly good outcome then he is described as being omnibenevolent. God still has the ability to choose the bad outcome. But chooses not to.

But further more I don't God chooses the perfectly good outcome I think he continuously chooses to do his will. So unlike a human who has to keep falling God has perfect Free will, in that his choices will always be his will.

You are confusing a being's nature to continuously choose something with an inability to choose differently. That is illogical and ridiculous.
s-anthony
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6/10/2014 8:39:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 8:26:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/10/2014 8:07:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

If God is good, then, God is defined by an inability to do evil. Values, such as good and evil, are defined by the appraiser; so, God can, or cannot, do something, only, in the minds of sentient beings.

Would you like to explain this, minus the errant punctuation marks?

Since God must be defined, in order to have meaning, then, God can only be known, in the finite sense.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/10/2014 10:47:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

If God is perfect, unable to make a mistake, and omnibenevolent, that God does not have free will. Free will means a choice, perfect+omnibenevolent=Can only make the omnibenevolent choice. If God could choose to make a different choice it means that that God would be able to make a non-omnibenevolent choice, meaning that God would no longer be perfect.
12_13
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6/10/2014 3:00:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/9/2014 6:39:39 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/9/2014 1:27:06 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I believe my God, which is the Bible God, has free will, because I don"t know any good reason not to believe so.

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the God of the Bible. Can he ever do the "wrong" thing? Was creating Satan (as the Bible claims), the "right" thing? If God is both perfect and omni-benevolent, then he can never make any choices at all. His choices are already made for him by the need to always do the right and "perfect" thing, which will lead to the most beneficial outcome.

The God of the Bible cannot make choices.

I think he can, and he makes always the right choice, because he knows it is good and right and wants that to happen.

If God would not have free will, it would mean that he can"t want something freely and in my opinion you didn"t provide any reason to think so.
Mhykiel
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6/10/2014 3:33:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 10:47:03 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/9/2014 10:22:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can your god decide whether or not he creates you?
Is your god obligated to create you?
Can your god decide not to create you?

If God is perfect, unable to make a mistake, and omnibenevolent, that God does not have free will. Free will means a choice, perfect+omnibenevolent=Can only make the omnibenevolent choice. If God could choose to make a different choice it means that that God would be able to make a non-omnibenevolent choice, meaning that God would no longer be perfect.

Free will is the freedom to choose. Nothing more.

IF a person falls off a building they have no choice but to continue falling. They have no free will in the matter to stop themselves.

If a mathematician continuously chooses the correct answer they become a perfect mathematician they still have the ability to choose incorrectly.

God continuously choose the perfectly good outcome then he is described as being omnibenevolent. God still has the ability to choose the bad outcome. But chooses not to.

But further more I don't God chooses the perfectly good outcome I think he continuously chooses to do his will. So unlike a human who has to keep falling God has perfect Free will, in that his choices will always be his will.

You are confusing a being's nature to continuously choose something with an inability to choose differently. That is illogical and ridiculous.
Beastt
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6/10/2014 3:36:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:00:22 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I think he can, and he makes always the right choice,
If he always has to make the best choice, then his choice is made for him by the need to choose in compliance with what is best. If I put you in a maze and force you to always turn right, do you have a choice where you will go? The need to turn right makes your choices for you. If God must always comply with what is best, then he has no choice either.

because he knows it is good and right and wants that to happen.
- So it was good and right for God to create Satan, even though he knew what would happen if he did?
- So it was good and right for God to create Hell, even though he knew most of his most beloved creation would end up there?
- So it was good and right for God to create Evil, even though without evil, no one would go to Hell?

...or haven't you read the Bible?

If God would not have free will, it would mean that he can"t want something freely and in my opinion you didn"t provide any reason to think so.
He can want it. But he can't choose it unless it is the perfect choice. His need to remain perfect dictates his choices to him.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/10/2014 3:42:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:33:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/10/2014 10:47:03 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
If God is perfect, unable to make a mistake, and omnibenevolent, that God does not have free will. Free will means a choice, perfect+omnibenevolent=Can only make the omnibenevolent choice. If God could choose to make a different choice it means that that God would be able to make a non-omnibenevolent choice, meaning that God would no longer be perfect.

Free will is the freedom to choose. Nothing more.

Correct

IF a person falls off a building they have no choice but to continue falling. They have no free will in the matter to stop themselves.

Correct

If a mathematician continuously chooses the correct answer they become a perfect mathematician they still have the ability to choose incorrectly.

Not correct. A perfect mathematician would not be perfect if he is choosing the answer from multiple answers as he would have the possibility of being wrong, a perfect mathematician would not be able to choose the correct answer as the correct answer would be automatic to that person, otherwise they would not be perfect.

God continuously choose the perfectly good outcome then he is described as being omnibenevolent. God still has the ability to choose the bad outcome. But chooses not to.

If God can choose the bad outcome that means that God is not perfect. God would be close to perfect if he does only choose the omnibenevolent outcome, but the fact that he/she/it would have to choose the outcome means that God is not perfect. The choice would be the perfect choice, but the God would not be a perfect God.

But further more I don't God chooses the perfectly good outcome I think he continuously chooses to do his will. So unlike a human who has to keep falling God has perfect Free will, in that his choices will always be his will.

You are confusing a being's nature to continuously choose something with an inability to choose differently. That is illogical and ridiculous.

If a being can choose something that contradicts to that being's nature (something non-omnibenevolent for an omnibenevolent God) that means that said being is not perfect as they can make a wrong choice, even if they do not the possibility still exists.

You are mistaking making the perfect choice for being perfect. They might seem similar, but they are very different.
Mhykiel
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6/10/2014 3:45:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:36:04 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:00:22 PM, 12_13 wrote:
I think he can, and he makes always the right choice,
If he always has to make the best choice, then his choice is made for him by the need to choose in compliance with what is best. If I put you in a maze and force you to always turn right, do you have a choice where you will go? The need to turn right makes your choices for you. If God must always comply with what is best, then he has no choice either.

because he knows it is good and right and wants that to happen.
- So it was good and right for God to create Satan, even though he knew what would happen if he did?

You mean was God wrong for giving the highest angel Lucifer free will?

- So it was good and right for God to create Hell, even though he knew most of his most beloved creation would end up there?

Find in the Bible where it says hell is currently made? No hell is said to be made in the future. The only things made right now is the Grave. (sheol)

- So it was good and right for God to create Evil, even though without evil, no one would go to Hell?


God did not make evil. Evil is the absence of Good. How can you make something that is the null of something else.

...or haven't you read the Bible?


Have you? or did you just read the abridged Atheist version.

If God would not have free will, it would mean that he can"t want something freely and in my opinion you didn"t provide any reason to think so.
He can want it. But he can't choose it unless it is the perfect choice. His need to remain perfect dictates his choices to him.

Way to shift the goal post by bringing up a list of different scenarios to address.

If given a choice between chocolate and vanilla ice cream flavors I always choose chocolate. I will always choose chocolate.

By your logic because I always use my free will to choose chocolate I no longer have free will. This makes no sense. If I have free will and continuously and always use IT to choose something than I have free will.

Admit your wrong and move on.
Mhykiel
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6/10/2014 3:50:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:42:46 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:33:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/10/2014 10:47:03 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
If God is perfect, unable to make a mistake, and omnibenevolent, that God does not have free will. Free will means a choice, perfect+omnibenevolent=Can only make the omnibenevolent choice. If God could choose to make a different choice it means that that God would be able to make a non-omnibenevolent choice, meaning that God would no longer be perfect.

Free will is the freedom to choose. Nothing more.

Correct

IF a person falls off a building they have no choice but to continue falling. They have no free will in the matter to stop themselves.

Correct

If a mathematician continuously chooses the correct answer they become a perfect mathematician they still have the ability to choose incorrectly.

Not correct. A perfect mathematician would not be perfect if he is choosing the answer from multiple answers as he would have the possibility of being wrong, a perfect mathematician would not be able to choose the correct answer as the correct answer would be automatic to that person, otherwise they would not be perfect.


He has the option to choose a wrong answer. But he is perfect mathematician so he never chooses the wrong answer. He still has the ability to choose wrong, But he chooses correctly instead.

God continuously choose the perfectly good outcome then he is described as being omnibenevolent. God still has the ability to choose the bad outcome. But chooses not to.

If God can choose the bad outcome that means that God is not perfect. God would be close to perfect if he does only choose the omnibenevolent outcome, but the fact that he/she/it would have to choose the outcome means that God is not perfect. The choice would be the perfect choice, but the God would not be a perfect God.


No he makes the perfect choice because of his perfect nature. Not because he has no choice in the matter.

But further more I don't God chooses the perfectly good outcome I think he continuously chooses to do his will. So unlike a human who has to keep falling God has perfect Free will, in that his choices will always be his will.

You are confusing a being's nature to continuously choose something with an inability to choose differently. That is illogical and ridiculous.

If a being can choose something that contradicts to that being's nature (something non-omnibenevolent for an omnibenevolent God) that means that said being is not perfect as they can make a wrong choice, even if they do not the possibility still exists.


I can choose to slaughter a whole city. I don't choose to because it is contrary to my nature. Does that mean I don't have a choice to slaughter a city? No I do I just elect not to.

You are mistaking making the perfect choice for being perfect. They might seem similar, but they are very different.

No that's what I am saying your mistake is. The being perfect is the nature. The making a perfect choice is the free will. Glad you can discern they are different.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/10/2014 3:56:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:50:43 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:42:46 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:33:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/10/2014 10:47:03 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
If God is perfect, unable to make a mistake, and omnibenevolent, that God does not have free will. Free will means a choice, perfect+omnibenevolent=Can only make the omnibenevolent choice. If God could choose to make a different choice it means that that God would be able to make a non-omnibenevolent choice, meaning that God would no longer be perfect.

Free will is the freedom to choose. Nothing more.

Correct

IF a person falls off a building they have no choice but to continue falling. They have no free will in the matter to stop themselves.

Correct

If a mathematician continuously chooses the correct answer they become a perfect mathematician they still have the ability to choose incorrectly.

Not correct. A perfect mathematician would not be perfect if he is choosing the answer from multiple answers as he would have the possibility of being wrong, a perfect mathematician would not be able to choose the correct answer as the correct answer would be automatic to that person, otherwise they would not be perfect.


He has the option to choose a wrong answer. But he is perfect mathematician so he never chooses the wrong answer. He still has the ability to choose wrong, But he chooses correctly instead.

Then he is not a perfect mathematician, he is just choosing the perfect answers.

God continuously choose the perfectly good outcome then he is described as being omnibenevolent. God still has the ability to choose the bad outcome. But chooses not to.

If God can choose the bad outcome that means that God is not perfect. God would be close to perfect if he does only choose the omnibenevolent outcome, but the fact that he/she/it would have to choose the outcome means that God is not perfect. The choice would be the perfect choice, but the God would not be a perfect God.


No he makes the perfect choice because of his perfect nature. Not because he has no choice in the matter.

If he can choose the non-perfect choice then he is not perfect. Someone can make only perfect choices, but that does not make that person perfect. In order for that person to be perfect they cannot be able to choose wrong.

But further more I don't God chooses the perfectly good outcome I think he continuously chooses to do his will. So unlike a human who has to keep falling God has perfect Free will, in that his choices will always be his will.

You are confusing a being's nature to continuously choose something with an inability to choose differently. That is illogical and ridiculous.

If a being can choose something that contradicts to that being's nature (something non-omnibenevolent for an omnibenevolent God) that means that said being is not perfect as they can make a wrong choice, even if they do not the possibility still exists.


I can choose to slaughter a whole city. I don't choose to because it is contrary to my nature. Does that mean I don't have a choice to slaughter a city? No I do I just elect not to.

You obviously do not understand. You have a choice to slaughter a city because you are not perfect. If you were perfect and omnibenevolent you would not have a choice to slaughter a city.

You are mistaking making the perfect choice for being perfect. They might seem similar, but they are very different.

No that's what I am saying your mistake is. The being perfect is the nature. The making a perfect choice is the free will. Glad you can discern they are different.

A perfect being cannot choose and imperfect choice, therefore they do not have free will. If a being is perfect it would be 100% impossible to choose an imperfect option. If it is 100% impossible to choose an option are you choosing not to do it? No.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/10/2014 3:59:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:45:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
God did not make evil. Evil is the absence of Good. How can you make something that is the null of something else.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The Bible says that God says he created evil, so you are wrong on this point since he was addressing the Christian God.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/10/2014 4:05:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 3:56:30 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:50:43 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:42:46 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/10/2014 3:33:13 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/10/2014 10:47:03 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
If God is perfect, unable to make a mistake, and omnibenevolent, that God does not have free will. Free will means a choice, perfect+omnibenevolent=Can only make the omnibenevolent choice. If God could choose to make a different choice it means that that God would be able to make a non-omnibenevolent choice, meaning that God would no longer be perfect.

Free will is the freedom to choose. Nothing more.

Correct

IF a person falls off a building they have no choice but to continue falling. They have no free will in the matter to stop themselves.

Correct

If a mathematician continuously chooses the correct answer they become a perfect mathematician they still have the ability to choose incorrectly.

Not correct. A perfect mathematician would not be perfect if he is choosing the answer from multiple answers as he would have the possibility of being wrong, a perfect mathematician would not be able to choose the correct answer as the correct answer would be automatic to that person, otherwise they would not be perfect.


He has the option to choose a wrong answer. But he is perfect mathematician so he never chooses the wrong answer. He still has the ability to choose wrong, But he chooses correctly instead.

Then he is not a perfect mathematician, he is just choosing the perfect answers.

God continuously choose the perfectly good outcome then he is described as being omnibenevolent. God still has the ability to choose the bad outcome. But chooses not to.

If God can choose the bad outcome that means that God is not perfect. God would be close to perfect if he does only choose the omnibenevolent outcome, but the fact that he/she/it would have to choose the outcome means that God is not perfect. The choice would be the perfect choice, but the God would not be a perfect God.


No he makes the perfect choice because of his perfect nature. Not because he has no choice in the matter.

If he can choose the non-perfect choice then he is not perfect. Someone can make only perfect choices, but that does not make that person perfect. In order for that person to be perfect they cannot be able to choose wrong.


A person answers 1000 math questions. They choose 1000 correct answers. They scored a perfect on that test. If they always perform a perfect on every math test they will be described as being a perfect mathematician.

The act of GOD using his freewill to always choose the right thing, means he has free will. Because he always chooses to do the right thing he is perfect.

But further more I don't God chooses the perfectly good outcome I think he continuously chooses to do his will. So unlike a human who has to keep falling God has perfect Free will, in that his choices will always be his will.

You are confusing a being's nature to continuously choose something with an inability to choose differently. That is illogical and ridiculous.

If a being can choose something that contradicts to that being's nature (something non-omnibenevolent for an omnibenevolent God) that means that said being is not perfect as they can make a wrong choice, even if they do not the possibility still exists.


I can choose to slaughter a whole city. I don't choose to because it is contrary to my nature. Does that mean I don't have a choice to slaughter a city? No I do I just elect not to.

You obviously do not understand. You have a choice to slaughter a city because you are not perfect. If you were perfect and omnibenevolent you would not have a choice to slaughter a city.

Really Sodom and Gomorrah much?


You are mistaking making the perfect choice for being perfect. They might seem similar, but they are very different.

No that's what I am saying your mistake is. The being perfect is the nature. The making a perfect choice is the free will. Glad you can discern they are different.

A perfect being cannot choose and imperfect choice, therefore they do not have free will. If a being is perfect it would be 100% impossible to choose an imperfect option. If it is 100% impossible to choose an option are you choosing not to do it? No.

When you do not have a choice in doing something then you don't have free will in the matter. I agree. That is like tripping off a building, even if I don't want to I will continue to fall.

Notice the option for choosing is removed.

God is all-powerful so there is no external force that can compel God to do something. So God's free will is always present. And he always chooses to do the perfectly good thing.

The results of those choices (free will) is why God is all-good (nature).

(just to clarify I am saying this for arguments sake I personally think God always chooses what will get his Will done.)