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Have you seen Jesus?

Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The world will never see Jesus again according to ...
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

However, according to the same scripture ( "but ye see me") only his disciples would be able to see him.

On the other hand, every eye would see him according to Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The questions to answer...

1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?

3. Have you seen Jesus?
merbear2536
Posts: 35
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6/10/2014 6:41:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The world will never see Jesus again according to ...
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

However, according to the same scripture ( "but ye see me") only his disciples would be able to see him.

On the other hand, every eye would see him according to Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The questions to answer...

1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?

3. Have you seen Jesus?

This depends on the context of these verses. I do not know the context so I cannot answer simply on these verses. I do believe that the literal Jesus will come down from heaven and everyone will see it.

Without knowing the context of the first verse, I cannot make a valid answer. I will try to study the passage when I get some time.

Have I seen Jesus with my own eyes? No I have not.
Kostakv
Posts: 28
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6/11/2014 1:25:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?

3. Have you seen Jesus?

1. Well, the world has seen a man named Jesus because there is many people named jesus...
2. According to this context I assume you're talking about Jesus as in the son of God, if so, his disciples did in fact see in and so did many other people... The reason why no one can see him now is because that man died a long time ago...
3. Have I see Jesus? well, I've seen many people named Jesus but never the legit Jesus that you're talking about.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/11/2014 1:48:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The questions to answer...
1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?
No, of course not. The world never actually saw him in the first place. That's why some Christians of the 1st and 2nd century didn't believe in a Jesus who actually existed on Earth, and the reason the Council of Nicaea found it necessary to vote on whether or not he actually existed.

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?
They're all dead. They can't see anything.

3. Have you seen Jesus?
Of course not. And anyone who says they have, is either a liar or delusional. Jesus is a pure myth.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/11/2014 1:51:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 6:41:21 PM, merbear2536 wrote:
This depends on the context of these verses. I do not know the context so I cannot answer simply on these verses. I do believe that the literal Jesus will come down from heaven and everyone will see it.
Perhaps you should review when the Bible claims this will happen. Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32 and Matthew 24:34. The deadline has long since passed. It didn't happen. It's not going to happen.

Without knowing the context of the first verse, I cannot make a valid answer. I will try to study the passage when I get some time.
It's not about context. It's about different authors with different beliefs, all being included in the same book. That's why the Bible contains so many contradictions.

Have I seen Jesus with my own eyes? No I have not.
Thank you for your honesty.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/11/2014 1:54:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 1:25:10 PM, Kostakv wrote:

1. Well, the world has seen a man named Jesus because there is many people named jesus...
2. According to this context I assume you're talking about Jesus as in the son of God, if so, his disciples did in fact see in and so did many other people... The reason why no one can see him now is because that man died a long time ago...
Actually, there is no more reason to believe his disciples saw him than to believe that the followers of Zeus saw Zeus. We have stories in which his disciples saw him. Those stories are not confirmed by historical records - much the opposite. The very historical documents most likely to confirm the existence of Jesus, had ne existed, fail to mention him.

3. Have I see Jesus? well, I've seen many people named Jesus but never the legit Jesus that you're talking about.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Kostakv
Posts: 28
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6/11/2014 1:59:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 1:48:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The questions to answer...
1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?
No, of course not. The world never actually saw him in the first place. That's why some Christians of the 1st and 2nd century didn't believe in a Jesus who actually existed on Earth, and the reason the Council of Nicaea found it necessary to vote on whether or not he actually existed.

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?
They're all dead. They can't see anything.

3. Have you seen Jesus?
Of course not. And anyone who says they have, is either a liar or delusional. Jesus is a pure myth.

I'm an atheist and I'm going to say that you cannot say that Jesus did or didn't exist because just because there isn't prof the back it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Kostakv
Posts: 28
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6/11/2014 2:02:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 1:54:12 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:25:10 PM, Kostakv wrote:

1. Well, the world has seen a man named Jesus because there is many people named jesus...
2. According to this context I assume you're talking about Jesus as in the son of God, if so, his disciples did in fact see in and so did many other people... The reason why no one can see him now is because that man died a long time ago...
Actually, there is no more reason to believe his disciples saw him than to believe that the followers of Zeus saw Zeus. We have stories in which his disciples saw him. Those stories are not confirmed by historical records - much the opposite. The very historical documents most likely to confirm the existence of Jesus, had ne existed, fail to mention him.

3. Have I see Jesus? well, I've seen many people named Jesus but never the legit Jesus that you're talking about.

If I was schizophrenic, and said I saw a green bunny, just because it doesn't exist does that mean the schizophrenic did not see the green bunny? Maybe his disciples were on drugs and saw "Jesus"
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/11/2014 4:35:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 2:02:34 PM, Kostakv wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:54:12 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:25:10 PM, Kostakv wrote:

1. Well, the world has seen a man named Jesus because there is many people named jesus...
2. According to this context I assume you're talking about Jesus as in the son of God, if so, his disciples did in fact see in and so did many other people... The reason why no one can see him now is because that man died a long time ago...
Actually, there is no more reason to believe his disciples saw him than to believe that the followers of Zeus saw Zeus. We have stories in which his disciples saw him. Those stories are not confirmed by historical records - much the opposite. The very historical documents most likely to confirm the existence of Jesus, had ne existed, fail to mention him.

3. Have I see Jesus? well, I've seen many people named Jesus but never the legit Jesus that you're talking about.

If I was schizophrenic, and said I saw a green bunny, just because it doesn't exist does that mean the schizophrenic did not see the green bunny? Maybe his disciples were on drugs and saw "Jesus"

Point taken. Then again, maybe the disciples understood Jesus as an entity in an ethereal realm, and the authors of the gospels tried to historize their beliefs.

I'm amazed at the number of people who read the claim that 500 people saw something, and then relay that as 500 confirmed visuals, rather than realizing that it's something one person (or a few people), wrote, and not necessarily what anyone saw.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Kostakv
Posts: 28
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6/11/2014 5:42:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 4:35:31 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/11/2014 2:02:34 PM, Kostakv wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:54:12 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:25:10 PM, Kostakv wrote:

1. Well, the world has seen a man named Jesus because there is many people named jesus...
2. According to this context I assume you're talking about Jesus as in the son of God, if so, his disciples did in fact see in and so did many other people... The reason why no one can see him now is because that man died a long time ago...
Actually, there is no more reason to believe his disciples saw him than to believe that the followers of Zeus saw Zeus. We have stories in which his disciples saw him. Those stories are not confirmed by historical records - much the opposite. The very historical documents most likely to confirm the existence of Jesus, had ne existed, fail to mention him.

3. Have I see Jesus? well, I've seen many people named Jesus but never the legit Jesus that you're talking about.

If I was schizophrenic, and said I saw a green bunny, just because it doesn't exist does that mean the schizophrenic did not see the green bunny? Maybe his disciples were on drugs and saw "Jesus"

Point taken. Then again, maybe the disciples understood Jesus as an entity in an ethereal realm, and the authors of the gospels tried to historize their beliefs.

I'm amazed at the number of people who read the claim that 500 people saw something, and then relay that as 500 confirmed visuals, rather than realizing that it's something one person (or a few people), wrote, and not necessarily what anyone saw.

In my opinion, when someone says why don't you just believe in God and why do you need prof i respond. "I have an invisible man in my closet and every once in a while he screams Blahh" then I ask, Do you believe? they say No... so why the hell would I believe in something with no prof or observational prof and you claim he's there.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/11/2014 7:05:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/10/2014 6:41:21 PM, merbear2536 wrote:
At 6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The world will never see Jesus again according to ...
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

However, according to the same scripture ( "but ye see me") only his disciples would be able to see him.

On the other hand, every eye would see him according to Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The questions to answer...

1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?

3. Have you seen Jesus?

This depends on the context of these verses. I do not know the context so I cannot answer simply on these verses. I do believe that the literal Jesus will come down from heaven and everyone will see it.

Why do you believe that?
Do you also believe the literal Santa will come flying out of the sky with his magical reindeer and sleigh to bring gifts to all the world ?
The story of Jesus is just as allegorical as the story of Santa.
http://systemssymbols.wordpress.com...

Without knowing the context of the first verse, I cannot make a valid answer. I will try to study the passage when I get some time.

When you study the story, make sure you compare it to the other myths which are all similar.
http://listverse.com...

Have I seen Jesus with my own eyes? No I have not.

Neither has anyone else because he is a mythical character like Santa Claus. The story of Jesus simply teaches lessons about various aspects of human nature.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/11/2014 11:40:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 1:48:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The questions to answer...
1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?
No, of course not. The world never actually saw him in the first place. That's why some Christians of the 1st and 2nd century didn't believe in a Jesus who actually existed on Earth, and the reason the Council of Nicaea found it necessary to vote on whether or not he actually existed.

I agree with you but many of todays Christians won't. Most believe Jesus was a historical person. They don't want to accept that he was a mythical figure.

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?
They're all dead. They can't see anything.

The ones in the story would obviously be dead however they live on through the story. Christians are all supposed to be Jesus disciples yet none of those alive today have ever seen Jesus the first time let alone a second time. They would not even recognize the man if he walked right up to them and spoke to them face to face.

3. Have you seen Jesus?
Of course not. And anyone who says they have, is either a liar or delusional. Jesus is a pure myth.

Yes the man is a myth but the attitude of the man in the story can be adopted by anyone at all. That attitude is to live in truth and speak the truth regardless of who is offended by it. We can learn a lot from the lessons taught through myths.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/11/2014 11:50:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 11:40:30 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:48:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?
No, of course not. The world never actually saw him in the first place. That's why some Christians of the 1st and 2nd century didn't believe in a Jesus who actually existed on Earth, and the reason the Council of Nicaea found it necessary to vote on whether or not he actually existed.

I agree with you but many of todays Christians won't. Most believe Jesus was a historical person. They don't want to accept that he was a mythical figure.
Agreed

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?
They're all dead. They can't see anything.

The ones in the story would obviously be dead however they live on through the story.
Noting, of course that "living on through the story" is a figure of speech and has nothing to do with the biological function called "life".

Christians are all supposed to be Jesus disciples yet none of those alive today have ever seen Jesus the first time let alone a second time. They would not even recognize the man if he walked right up to them and spoke to them face to face.
Which is part of the reason it's sometimes hard to keep a straight face when they claim to have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".


3. Have you seen Jesus?
Of course not. And anyone who says they have, is either a liar or delusional. Jesus is a pure myth.

Yes the man is a myth but the attitude of the man in the story can be adopted by anyone at all. That attitude is to live in truth and speak the truth regardless of who is offended by it. We can learn a lot from the lessons taught through myths.
We can learn things which are true as well as accepting claims which are untrue. For example, one should not suggest that slaves obey their masters, that it is an appropriate mindset to have no thought for the future, or that turning the other cheek is always the appropriate response to aggression. This is one of the problems with learning from myths taken to be true. It is taken as unquestionably true no matter the absurdity of the claim.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/11/2014 11:56:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 1:51:22 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/10/2014 6:41:21 PM, merbear2536 wrote:
This depends on the context of these verses. I do not know the context so I cannot answer simply on these verses. I do believe that the literal Jesus will come down from heaven and everyone will see it.
Perhaps you should review when the Bible claims this will happen. Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32 and Matthew 24:34. The deadline has long since passed. It didn't happen. It's not going to happen.

Lets review those scriptures here and see what they say.
Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Did some standing there see the Son of man coming in his kingdom?

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Has the generation which saw Jesus in the story passed away?

Some Christians claim Jesus never meant the generation which was with him at the time but they claim he means the generation which saw all the signs he spoke about in the parables. Yet according to Matthew 16:27-28 he clearly was talking about some of those who were standing there at the time.

Now those of us who understand Jesus is a mythical character are not expecting any person to appear in any literal clouds at any time in the future.

However, I wonder how many really understand the message in the story?

Do those of you who understand Jesus is a mythical character see any message in the story at all? If so, what lessons morals or message do you see in it?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/12/2014 12:03:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 1:59:05 PM, Kostakv wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:48:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/10/2014 5:30:20 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The questions to answer...
1. Will the whole world see a man named Jesus come in literal clouds or will the world never see him again?
No, of course not. The world never actually saw him in the first place. That's why some Christians of the 1st and 2nd century didn't believe in a Jesus who actually existed on Earth, and the reason the Council of Nicaea found it necessary to vote on whether or not he actually existed.

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?
They're all dead. They can't see anything.

3. Have you seen Jesus?
Of course not. And anyone who says they have, is either a liar or delusional. Jesus is a pure myth.

I'm an atheist and I'm going to say that you cannot say that Jesus did or didn't exist because just because there isn't prof the back it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.

How likely do you think it is for a virgin to get pregnant supernaturally?
How likely do you think it is for a man to become such a controversial figure, do a lot of miracles, heal a lot of people, even raise some from the dead and never be mentioned in any history books?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/12/2014 12:38:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 11:50:13 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/11/2014 11:40:30 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/11/2014 1:48:42 PM, Beastt wrote:

2. How can his disciples see him if the rest of the world cannot see him?
They're all dead. They can't see anything.

The ones in the story would obviously be dead however they live on through the story.
Noting, of course that "living on through the story" is a figure of speech and has nothing to do with the biological function called "life".

Agreed.
I also consider the "life" including "eternal life" which is referred to in the bible to be a figure of speech. I think all people who "live on" through history books or myths or even just in other peoples memories continue to "live on" as long as they are remembered by the living who keep their spirits "alive" through the stories.

Christians are all supposed to be Jesus disciples yet none of those alive today have ever seen Jesus the first time let alone a second time. They would not even recognize the man if he walked right up to them and spoke to them face to face.
Which is part of the reason it's sometimes hard to keep a straight face when they claim to have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".

I totally understand what you are saying. However, I have been there and been one of them so I understand the concept. Have you ever been there and claimed to have a personal relationship with Jesus?
It is a bit like claiming to have a personal relationship with your own conscience. No other person can "hear" your conscience but you.
Unbelievers can understand the concept of following ones own conscience and intuition. That is what Christians are doing but they make it sound spiritual and claim that "God spoke to them" when all they are doing is "hearing" their own conscience and following their own intuitions the same as anyone else. Of course some get a bit carried away and imagine different "voices" in their own mind. When they get too bad they usually get diagnosed as schizophrenic and treated as the medical professionals find appropriate.

3. Have you seen Jesus?
Of course not. And anyone who says they have, is either a liar or delusional. Jesus is a pure myth.

Yes the man is a myth but the attitude of the man in the story can be adopted by anyone at all. That attitude is to live in truth and speak the truth regardless of who is offended by it. We can learn a lot from the lessons taught through myths.

We can learn things which are true as well as accepting claims which are untrue. For example, one should not suggest that slaves obey their masters, that it is an appropriate mindset to have no thought for the future, or that turning the other cheek is always the appropriate response to aggression. This is one of the problems with learning from myths taken to be true. It is taken as unquestionably true no matter the absurdity of the claim.

I agree. The fact that so many Christians simply accept claims made by their pastors or church leaders makes them gullible and prone to believing false doctrines. The bible itself warns against preachers who appear to be sheep but are actually wolves in sheeps clothing. They deceive the believers. However often they don't even know they are deceiving anyone because they are so self deceived that they are convinced they are telling the truth.

Whether slaves obey their masters or workers obey their bosses depends on what their bosses or masters are asking them to do. If they are asking them simply to do an honest days work, there is nothing wrong with the concept of obeying them but if they ask the workers to do something dishonest or unlawful, I don't think they are obligated to obey. However, when any worker disobeys a boss they always run the risk of being sacked from the job. It all depends on how much a person values honesty.

We need to use common sense and follow our own conscience and intuition. We all have a personal relationship with our own conscience don't we? There is a time to turn the other cheek and a time to fight back. We need wisdom to know the difference.