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Denominations=Division

matt.mcguire88
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6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What did the Bible have in mind for the so-called "Church"?
What is it supposed to look like?
Was the church meant to divide into "sects" of religious doctrines?

It's a good thing we have the scripture to verify what is true about the people of God and what the goal is.
Let's judge according to what is written...

1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Philippians 2
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Romans 15
1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not please ourselves.

2 Let everyone of us please his neighbor for his good to edification.

3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

Ephesians 4
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye were called.

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

It is of my own understanding that the first priority of God's people is unity.
Now, any old genius could take a look into reality and see this is not the case, however is that relevant to the scripture? Was Paul and Christ clear enough what the objective of the "Church" is supposed to look like?

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/17/2014 7:04:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
John 7
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Conservative101
Posts: 191
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6/17/2014 7:16:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
" The true church must teach that Jesus Christ organized the church and have the same organization. Eph. 4: 11-14.
" The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ. Eph. 5:23.
" The true church must have living apostles and prophets. Eph. 2:19-20, Eph. 4:11-12.
" The true church must claim divine authority. Heb. 5:4-10.
" The true church must have no paid ministry. Isa. 45:13, 1Pet.5:2.
" The true church must have a 'lay' or volunteer clergy. Matt. 10:8.
" The true church clergy must be 'called of God, as was Aaron'. Heb. 5:4.
" The true church must baptize by immersion. Matt. 3:13-16.
" The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Acts 8:14-17.
" The true church must practice divine healing. Mark 3:14-15.
" The true church must teach that God & Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals. John 17:11, John 20:17.
" The true church must teach that God & Jesus Christ have bodies of glorified flesh & bone. Luke 24:36-39, Acts 1:9-11.
" The true church must have officers 'called of God'. Heb.5:4, Ex. 28:1, Ex.40:13-16.
" The true church must claim revelation from God and continuous revelation. Amos 3:7.
" The true church must be a missionary church. Matt. 28:19-20.
" The true church must be a restored church. Acts 3:19-20.
" The true church must practice baptism for the dead. 1 Cor. 15:16, 29, 1 Pet. 3:18-19.
" The true church must teach a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ. John 14:6.
" The true church must teach a physical resurrection. Luke 24:39.
" The true church must have the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. Luke 22:19-20.
" The true church must have the Seventy. Luke 10:1.
" The true church must teach belief in a personal God. Heb.1:1-3.
" The true church must teach belief in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Mark 16:16-18.
" The true church must teach belief in new scripture. Ezek. 37:16-17, Isa. 29:4.
" The true church believers are called 'saints'. Eph. 2:19.
" By their fruits ye shall know them. Matt. 7:20.
" Why these things are important. Heb. 13:8.
When in doubt, start riots and scream racism
Geogeer
Posts: 4,291
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6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,291
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6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation. We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite. But we have FAILED, better yet religion has failed. I personally do not divide myself from other believers, I don't give a crap about some organized business, my priority is to reach unity with my brother so that we can impact the world the way it was meant to be, for the people. Face it my brother, if you think that the catholic system is not corrupt then that is your own life, but it's not for me. That's not what I need or am going to pursue to reach the goals that scripture has provided.
merbear2536
Posts: 35
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6/18/2014 8:29:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation. We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite. But we have FAILED, better yet religion has failed. I personally do not divide myself from other believers, I don't give a crap about some organized business, my priority is to reach unity with my brother so that we can impact the world the way it was meant to be, for the people. Face it my brother, if you think that the catholic system is not corrupt then that is your own life, but it's not for me. That's not what I need or am going to pursue to reach the goals that scripture has provided.

I think he was refering to the word "catholic" as meaning the universal body of believers. The Roman Catholic Church is different then the catholic church. I dont know if this is what he meant im just guessing.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/18/2014 10:50:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 8:29:08 AM, merbear2536 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation. We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite. But we have FAILED, better yet religion has failed. I personally do not divide myself from other believers, I don't give a crap about some organized business, my priority is to reach unity with my brother so that we can impact the world the way it was meant to be, for the people. Face it my brother, if you think that the catholic system is not corrupt then that is your own life, but it's not for me. That's not what I need or am going to pursue to reach the goals that scripture has provided.

I think he was refering to the word "catholic" as meaning the universal body of believers. The Roman Catholic Church is different then the catholic church. I dont know if this is what he meant im just guessing.

And I'm referring to any religion, catholic or not. I see no credible use for it even in light of the scriptures. The catholic church does not represent the "universal body of believers" IMO, the believers are what makes the church not the other way around. My point is that religion and denominations cause division in general, we can remove religion and replace it with unity, this is our goal as believers and in scripture, we can achieve unity when religion is removed, when we put religion in replace of unity we become divided from one another.
I personally do not suggest who is a christian and who isn't and I really don't care what religion people choose. The problem I see is from the religious people, as soon as one individual joins a religious group all the sudden everyone who isn't in that particular group are not followers of Jesus or true believers, this causes division and is ridiculously selfish. Religion is not needed to agree on scripture and become one.
This is merely my opinion though.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,291
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6/23/2014 12:51:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you. Been a busy week.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Sure it does. The Church of Christ must always be visible and knowable. Christ did not write a book and give it to the apostles and tell them, good luck read it and figure it out. He left a group of men with authority. It is their writings that became gospel because of the authority they possessed. And who said which writings were authoritative? Their successors - the one to whom the authority had been passed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation.

Jesus renamed Simon to Peter. God rarely renames people and always does it with purpose. Like with Abraham, Peter has been given a position of fatherhood and leadership. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. The remainder of the passage does not jive with your interpretation.

Just as in the Davidic kingdom, the heavenly kingdom has a position of royal steward.

We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

You need the Catholic Church for authority and the Eucharist. You rely on the bible for authority, but who told you that the bible is authoritative? How do you know how to interpret it? Are you interpreting it in the same manner as those in the 4th century when it was originally canonized? Do you believe the same as those before it was canonized?

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite.

No. We are the Church when we are united in Christ. Christ is the truth, thus we can only be truly united through truth.

But we have FAILED, better yet religion has failed. I personally do not divide myself from other believers, I don't give a crap about some organized business, my priority is to reach unity with my brother so that we can impact the world the way it was meant to be, for the people. Face it my brother, if you think that the catholic system is not corrupt then that is your own life, but it's not for me. That's not what I need or am going to pursue to reach the goals that scripture has provided.

I would argue that anyone who is part of the body of Christ is a part of the Catholic Church. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through the Church that Christ established - which I argue is the Catholic Church.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/23/2014 8:35:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 12:51:44 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you. Been a busy week.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Sure it does. The Church of Christ must always be visible and knowable. Christ did not write a book and give it to the apostles and tell them, good luck read it and figure it out. He left a group of men with authority. It is their writings that became gospel because of the authority they possessed. And who said which writings were authoritative? Their successors - the one to whom the authority had been passed.
No it doesn't, ask any non catholic here, the "light on a hill" is for non believers not believers, they failed horribly.
The teachings are in the scriptures, those teachings bring man to God, and I never said the underlined, most likely you're gonna try and start to add things to what I say, this is how religious people promote their church by side stepping, it's dishonest to assert my position. Just because I reject the catholic church does not mean I reject God or the scriptures, but because you are indoctrinated this is how you are going to view it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation.

Jesus renamed Simon to Peter. God rarely renames people and always does it with purpose. Like with Abraham, Peter has been given a position of fatherhood and leadership. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. The remainder of the passage does not jive with your interpretation.

Yes it does, and of course it had purpose, who said it didn't?? Just because I reject the Pope does not mean I reject the revelation of Christ lol.

Just as in the Davidic kingdom, the heavenly kingdom has a position of royal steward.


We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

You need the Catholic Church for authority and the Eucharist. You rely on the bible for authority, but who told you that the bible is authoritative? How do you know how to interpret it? Are you interpreting it in the same manner as those in the 4th century when it was originally canonized? Do you believe the same as those before it was canonized?

No I don't need the catholic church for authority but thank you. Promote away...

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite.

No. We are the Church when we are united in Christ. Christ is the truth, thus we can only be truly united through truth.

That's what I said...WE ARE THE CHURCH. And here you are adding lies, of course we are to be united in Christ, that has nothing to do with catholics, but keep promoting.

But we have FAILED, better yet religion has failed. I personally do not divide myself from other believers, I don't give a crap about some organized business, my priority is to reach unity with my brother so that we can impact the world the way it was meant to be, for the people. Face it my brother, if you think that the catholic system is not corrupt then that is your own life, but it's not for me. That's not what I need or am going to pursue to reach the goals that scripture has provided.

I would argue that anyone who is part of the body of Christ is a part of the Catholic Church. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through the Church that Christ established - which I argue is the Catholic Church.

That's ignorant and proves my point, well done. You divide yourself from other believers and judge me and others according to your own taste in religion. You need to read your Bible sir...
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/23/2014 8:45:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 8:35:04 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/23/2014 12:51:44 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 8:55:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:36:28 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 7:20:05 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/13/2014 3:28:14 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Has the church perverted the image it's compelled to maintain? I think it's pretty obvious.
What's the answer.... I say we all as believers dump religious sects as a whole until they have no more power!!!! I know I know I'm dreaming right lol?

Division started pretty much right away! You had the judaisers, then you had the Gnostics, then the Catholic/Orthodox split, then the Protestants.

While is it sad that the body of Christ is split, it cannot be solved except by adherence to the truth.

And adherence to the truth from all parties means unity. Who doesn't want to adhere to the truth? I do.... What's "adherence to the truth" in your opinion?

Well I would argue that you have to look at what the church fathers taught what the early creeds were and (obviously) what Jesus and the apostles spoke.

I would argue that three things that Jesus said are critical to knowing which church to follow. First he said that the gates of hell would not overcome His Church, he said that the Holy Spirit would guide it in all truth, and third he said that the church would be like a city on a hill or a lamp hung high for all to see.

So the Church would always posses the truth (it cannot ever change dogma), it would be recognizable (not some random little sect), and it would never fail.

In terms of the Church fathers, I would look at ignatius who was a disciple of John. He said where the bishop is, there is the church. Thus we know that the church is one of authority.

This is backed up by the Nicene Creed which tells us what the Church fathers understood the 4 marks of the Church to be. One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Based on the above only the Catholic or Orthodox faiths can possibly claim to be this Church.

A Catholic vs Orthodox debate is something else.

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you. Been a busy week.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Sure it does. The Church of Christ must always be visible and knowable. Christ did not write a book and give it to the apostles and tell them, good luck read it and figure it out. He left a group of men with authority. It is their writings that became gospel because of the authority they possessed. And who said which writings were authoritative? Their successors - the one to whom the authority had been passed.
No it doesn't, ask any non catholic here, the "light on a hill" is for non believers not believers, they failed horribly.
The teachings are in the scriptures, those teachings bring man to God, and I never said the underlined, most likely you're gonna try and start to add things to what I say, this is how religious people promote their church by side stepping, it's dishonest to assert my position. Just because I reject the catholic church does not mean I reject God or the scriptures, but because you are indoctrinated this is how you are going to view it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation.

Jesus renamed Simon to Peter. God rarely renames people and always does it with purpose. Like with Abraham, Peter has been given a position of fatherhood and leadership. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. The remainder of the passage does not jive with your interpretation.

Yes it does, and of course it had purpose, who said it didn't?? Just because I reject the Pope does not mean I reject the revelation of Christ lol.

Just as in the Davidic kingdom, the heavenly kingdom has a position of royal steward.


We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

You need the Catholic Church for authority and the Eucharist. You rely on the bible for authority, but who told you that the bible is authoritative? How do you know how to interpret it? Are you interpreting it in the same manner as those in the 4th century when it was originally canonized? Do you believe the same as those before it was canonized?

No I don't need the catholic church for authority but thank you. Promote away...

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite.

No. We are the Church when we are united in Christ. Christ is the truth, thus we can only be truly united through truth.

That's what I said...WE ARE THE CHURCH. And here you are *adding lies*, of course we are to be united in Christ, that has nothing to do with catholics, but keep promoting.

But we have FAILED, better yet religion has failed. I personally do not divide myself from other believers, I don't give a crap about some organized business, my priority is to reach unity with my brother so that we can impact the world the way it was meant to be, for the people. Face it my brother, if you think that the catholic system is not corrupt then that is your own life, but it's not for me. That's not what I need or am going to pursue to reach the goals that scripture has provided.

I would argue that anyone who is part of the body of Christ is a part of the Catholic Church. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through the Church that Christ established - which I argue is the Catholic Church.

That's ignorant and proves my point, well done. You divide yourself from other believers and judge me and others according to your own taste in religion. You need to read your Bible sir...

*Adding lines* excuse me fixed. The whole point of my post was about unity, why would you think otherwise?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,291
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6/23/2014 9:20:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 8:35:04 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/23/2014 12:51:44 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you. Been a busy week.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Sure it does. The Church of Christ must always be visible and knowable. Christ did not write a book and give it to the apostles and tell them, good luck read it and figure it out. He left a group of men with authority. It is their writings that became gospel because of the authority they possessed. And who said which writings were authoritative? Their successors - the one to whom the authority had been passed.

No it doesn't, ask any non catholic here, the "light on a hill" is for non believers not believers, they failed horribly.

Is the Catholic Church not visible to everyone? Has it not always been there for everyone to see? Are her teachings not open for everyone to know? Are they not consistent?

In movies a Catholic mass is exceedingly common as a back drop for Christianity. And when you get to things like demonic possession in those movies it is almost exclusively a Catholic exorcist that you'll find. The culture knows that the Catholic Church is the recognizable standard for Christianity.

That is why it is attacked by the culture more than other Christian faiths.

Heck even satanists know who their enemy is. Desecration of the bible is not the central focus of a black mass. It is about the desecration of a consecrated host.

The teachings are in the scriptures, those teachings bring man to God, and I never said the underlined, most likely you're gonna try and start to add things to what I say, this is how religious people promote their church by side stepping, it's dishonest to assert my position. Just because I reject the catholic church does not mean I reject God or the scriptures, but because you are indoctrinated this is how you are going to view it.

Those underlined things were my argument. I'll spell it out more clearly since you are missing it. The Church of Christ subsists on the authority of the apostles (which is the authority of Christ) and not on the Bible alone. We only know the bible to be authoritative because those to whom the apostolic authority had been passed to said they were authoritative. Thus if you accept the Bible you are accepting the authority of those Bishops who canonized the books.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation.

Jesus renamed Simon to Peter. God rarely renames people and always does it with purpose. Like with Abraham, Peter has been given a position of fatherhood and leadership. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. The remainder of the passage does not jive with your interpretation.

Yes it does, and of course it had purpose, who said it didn't?? Just because I reject the Pope does not mean I reject the revelation of Christ lol.

It has great significance. Any good Jew knew that the role of Royal Steward was given to a man and his descendants. They also knew that the steward had all authority except that of the crown. As the kingdom of Christ is without end, so too is the role of royal steward.

Just as in the Davidic kingdom, the heavenly kingdom has a position of royal steward.

We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

You need the Catholic Church for authority and the Eucharist. You rely on the bible for authority, but who told you that the bible is authoritative? How do you know how to interpret it? Are you interpreting it in the same manner as those in the 4th century when it was originally canonized? Do you believe the same as those before it was canonized?

No I don't need the catholic church for authority but thank you. Promote away...

Sure you do. Who said the bible is an authoritative book? Under what continual tradition from the apostles do you understand how to interpret this infallible book?

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite.

No. We are the Church when we are united in Christ. Christ is the truth, thus we can only be truly united through truth.

That's what I said...WE ARE THE CHURCH. And here you are adding lies, of course we are to be united in Christ, that has nothing to do with catholics, but keep promoting.

Where is the fullness of truth? People do not believe Christians when they cannot agree on what the truth is.

I would argue that anyone who is part of the body of Christ is a part of the Catholic Church. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through the Church that Christ established - which I argue is the Catholic Church.

That's ignorant and proves my point, well done. You divide yourself from other believers and judge me and others according to your own taste in religion. You need to read your Bible sir...

On the contrary, I include. All those who have had a trinitarian baptism are in reality Catholics - though separated brothers and sisters. Those who have a baptism of desire or of blood are Catholics though nobody recognizes them as even Chris
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/23/2014 9:41:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 9:20:29 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/23/2014 8:35:04 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/23/2014 12:51:44 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:13:51 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you. Been a busy week.

Wow, is that really what you get from reading the above passages lol? So basically you're gonna promote the catholic church? Why? As for the three examples you provided the catholic church has failed on all three.... and by far does not represent any "light on a hill".

Sure it does. The Church of Christ must always be visible and knowable. Christ did not write a book and give it to the apostles and tell them, good luck read it and figure it out. He left a group of men with authority. It is their writings that became gospel because of the authority they possessed. And who said which writings were authoritative? Their successors - the one to whom the authority had been passed.

No it doesn't, ask any non catholic here, the "light on a hill" is for non believers not believers, they failed horribly.

Is the Catholic Church not visible to everyone? Has it not always been there for everyone to see? Are her teachings not open for everyone to know? Are they not consistent?

In movies a Catholic mass is exceedingly common as a back drop for Christianity. And when you get to things like demonic possession in those movies it is almost exclusively a Catholic exorcist that you'll find. The culture knows that the Catholic Church is the recognizable standard for Christianity.

That is why it is attacked by the culture more than other Christian faiths.

Heck even satanists know who their enemy is. Desecration of the bible is not the central focus of a black mass. It is about the desecration of a consecrated host.

The teachings are in the scriptures, those teachings bring man to God, and I never said the underlined, most likely you're gonna try and start to add things to what I say, this is how religious people promote their church by side stepping, it's dishonest to assert my position. Just because I reject the catholic church does not mean I reject God or the scriptures, but because you are indoctrinated this is how you are going to view it.

Those underlined things were my argument. I'll spell it out more clearly since you are missing it. The Church of Christ subsists on the authority of the apostles (which is the authority of Christ) and not on the Bible alone. We only know the bible to be authoritative because those to whom the apostolic authority had been passed to said they were authoritative. Thus if you accept the Bible you are accepting the authority of those Bishops who canonized the books.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "church" represents the believers in Christ and followers of His teachings, I see not one thing in this entire thread that requires any religious system much less the catholic one. The "church" was established based upon the words of Peter, it was based upon the simple revelation of who Jesus was and is and nothing "can prevail against" that revelation.

Jesus renamed Simon to Peter. God rarely renames people and always does it with purpose. Like with Abraham, Peter has been given a position of fatherhood and leadership. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. The remainder of the passage does not jive with your interpretation.

Yes it does, and of course it had purpose, who said it didn't?? Just because I reject the Pope does not mean I reject the revelation of Christ lol.

It has great significance. Any good Jew knew that the role of Royal Steward was given to a man and his descendants. They also knew that the steward had all authority except that of the crown. As the kingdom of Christ is without end, so too is the role of royal steward.

Just as in the Davidic kingdom, the heavenly kingdom has a position of royal steward.

We don't need the catholic church to believe in truth or to fellowship... power, money and popularity do not equate to anything and is not an indicator of what we should follow.

You need the Catholic Church for authority and the Eucharist. You rely on the bible for authority, but who told you that the bible is authoritative? How do you know how to interpret it? Are you interpreting it in the same manner as those in the 4th century when it was originally canonized? Do you believe the same as those before it was canonized?

No I don't need the catholic church for authority but thank you. Promote away...

Sure you do. Who said the bible is an authoritative book? Under what continual tradition from the apostles do you understand how to interpret this infallible book?

According to the scriptures I provided the number one priority is UNITY is it not?, being of one mind and one Spirit because that's when we are at our greatest strength and we need no church to accomplish that WE ARE THE CHURCH when we unite.

No. We are the Church when we are united in Christ. Christ is the truth, thus we can only be truly united through truth.

That's what I said...WE ARE THE CHURCH. And here you are adding lies, of course we are to be united in Christ, that has nothing to do with catholics, but keep promoting.

Where is the fullness of truth? People do not believe Christians when they cannot agree on what the truth is.

Exactly, that is the point of my post.


I would argue that anyone who is part of the body of Christ is a part of the Catholic Church. There is only one way to heaven, and that is through the Church that Christ established - which I argue is the Catholic Church.

That's ignorant and proves my point, well done. You divide yourself from other believers and judge me and others according to your own taste in religion. You need to read your Bible sir...

On the contrary, I include. All those who have had a trinitarian baptism are in reality Catholics - though separated brothers and sisters. Those who have a baptism of desire or of blood are Catholics though nobody recognizes them as even Chris

I'm not gonna argue with you over your beliefs any further, it's worthless and presents further division for people to witness. I'm going to consider you a brother in the Lord and pursue unity, what you decide is your own business.