Total Posts:51|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Brain vs. bible

irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 12:42:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:24:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
goddidit!

...you misspelled "damn."
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 12:42:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Seriously? they serve as two different functions...
Our brains are what we were given to be able to think, reason and produce for ourselves "agriculturally and industrially". Rememeber...God said be fruitful and multiply...he essentially gave us the dominion and the resources of the earth.

The scriptures are what we are given to be able to think, reason and produce that which is eternal and relevant to God, which are spiritual matters, which in Christianity is the "larger concern". If you're not a theist then this is not a concern of course.
But to believers our "earthly temple" is not as significant as our spiritual temple.

The focus of the scriptures are not for the building up of the "outer" man but the inner. Not physical qualities but internal qualities.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 12:59:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

If you read Proverbs 3:5 in context you will see its not what you trying to convey. the Bible dont condemn knowledge, it encourages knowledge.
Never fart near dog
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 3:09:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 12:59:54 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

If you read Proverbs 3:5 in context you will see its not what you trying to convey. the Bible dont condemn knowledge, it encourages knowledge.

"Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight"

It says don't be a dick to people. Don't be arrogant thinking you are always right. Trust in God to show you the right way to do things. And give him props.

A few verse later it describes wisdom and truth as a rich young sexy woman to be sought after by men.

"My son, do not let wisdom and understanding out of your sight, preserve sound judgment and discretion" Proverbs 3:21

So how again does the bible ask people to be dumb and not make jet planes?
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 3:30:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 12:59:54 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

If you read Proverbs 3:5 in context you will see its not what you trying to convey. the Bible dont condemn knowledge, it encourages knowledge.

I didn't say the bible condemns knowledge. But it presents knowledge of "spiritual matters" as more important than secular matters. This to the point that the jeebus told his followers to "worry not for the morrow," as though it's gawd that would provide for one's needs. The point of the exercise is that utilizing reason for the betterment of humanity should supersede faith. The bible provides not one bit of the knowledge, or even the basis for knowledge of anything that can compare to that which science has provided us. In fact, if the bible or any other "holy" manuscript had been the sole source of information, and left to the church to disseminate, Most of us would still be in Europe, kissing the ring of whatever clerical monarch happened to be presiding in your area...
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 3:43:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 3:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/14/2014 12:59:54 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

If you read Proverbs 3:5 in context you will see its not what you trying to convey. the Bible dont condemn knowledge, it encourages knowledge.

"Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight"

It says don't be a dick to people.

xDDD

Don't be arrogant thinking you are always right. Trust in God to show you the right way to do things. And give him props.

A few verse later it describes wisdom and truth as a rich young sexy woman to be sought after by men.

"My son, do not let wisdom and understanding out of your sight, preserve sound judgment and discretion" Proverbs 3:21

So how again does the bible ask people to be dumb and not make jet planes?

boddy im with you man Bible encourage to seek knowledge :@
Never fart near dog
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 3:53:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 3:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/14/2014 12:59:54 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

If you read Proverbs 3:5 in context you will see its not what you trying to convey. the Bible dont condemn knowledge, it encourages knowledge.

"Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight"

Don't let kindness leave you - no "holy" manuscript required.
Favor and good repute with gawd - not a concern, if this one isn't there...
Trust in the 'lord' for what, exactly? Knowledge? Knowledge of what? Will the knowledge for which one trusts in the 'lord' make life better for humanity? If so, how?
Lean not on your own understanting - Why not? Leaving 'understanding' to be explained by a "holy" spirit or gawd's guidance doesn't appear to be very consistent...

It says don't be a dick to people. Don't be arrogant thinking you are always right. Trust in God to show you the right way to do things. And give him props.

Don't be a dick - Check. No "holy" manuscript required. Do you know of a group of people more dick'ish than the vast majority of those that believe they have gawd "on their side?"
Don't be arrogant - Check. See #1 (replace "dick'ish" with "arrogant.")
Trust gawd - Check. What if there is no gawd? I know the ones humanity has worshiped aren't there...
Give props - Check. According to whose method, exactly?'

A few verse later it describes wisdom and truth as a rich young sexy woman to be sought after by men.

Wisdom and Truth - Check. No "holy" manuscript required.

"My son, do not let wisdom and understanding out of your sight, preserve sound judgment and discretion" Proverbs 3:21

See previous entry.

So how again does the bible ask people to be dumb and not make jet planes?

I never said the bible asks anyone to be dumb. If, however, we pursue biblical "wisdom," and let gawd "guide" us, how will the really useful stuff be discovered? Seeking understanding from something that has never revealed itself to any of a myriad of groups in the same way twice, what are we supposed to glean? What understanding are we to receive from any holy manuscript that has improved anyone's life in even close to the same manner as those described in the OP? What knowledge or understanding derived from any holy manuscript has genuinely and consistently improved humanity (that would not have been possible by any other means)?
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 4:11:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

Brains and Bibles are only illusions that are not reality.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 4:14:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 4:11:06 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

Brains and Bibles are only illusions that are not reality.

Cute.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 4:18:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 4:14:43 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/14/2014 4:11:06 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

Brains and Bibles are only illusions that are not reality.

Cute.

Some women may think I'm cute but I see myself in a mirror and the image I know as only an illusion isn't really that cute. I'm glad it will be killed soon.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2014 4:19:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 3:53:13 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/14/2014 3:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/14/2014 12:59:54 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

If you read Proverbs 3:5 in context you will see its not what you trying to convey. the Bible dont condemn knowledge, it encourages knowledge.

"Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight"

Don't let kindness leave you - no "holy" manuscript required.
Favor and good repute with gawd - not a concern, if this one isn't there...

The chapter you quote from says the way a person treats others is an outward sign of the wisdom and understanding they gain.

Trust in the 'lord' for what, exactly? Knowledge? Knowledge of what? Will the knowledge for which one trusts in the 'lord' make life better for humanity? If so, how?

Same way it has already be done. God beleiving people made life better for the mankind and discovered things that opened whole new understandings.:
http://www.debate.org...

Lean not on your own understanting - Why not? Leaving 'understanding' to be explained by a "holy" spirit or gawd's guidance doesn't appear to be very consistent...


"Lean not unto your own understanding" is not a message to not seek wisdom and understanding.

It is saying do not mistake the hypothesis, systems, and self establishing ideas you have with Truth.

That wisdom and understanding are in searching the way God does things.

"By wisdom the Lord laid the foundation of the earth; he established the heavens by understanding. By his knowledge the primordial sea was broken open and the clouds drip down dew"

God made the natural laws.

It says don't be a dick to people. Don't be arrogant thinking you are always right. Trust in God to show you the right way to do things. And give him props.

Don't be a dick - Check. No "holy" manuscript required. Do you know of a group of people more dick'ish than the vast majority of those that believe they have gawd "on their side?"

Your right you don't need a holy manuscript to be a dick or arrogant.

Don't be arrogant - Check. See #1 (replace "dick'ish" with "arrogant.")
Trust gawd - Check. What if there is no gawd? I know the ones humanity has worshiped aren't there...

This is debatable. But Einstein spoke of God and it was not one worshiped by humanity. Einstein spoke of a god that made the universe and the natural laws. Searching for God has it's own rewards apart from ever being able to find god.


Wisdom and Truth - Check. No "holy" manuscript required.


The manuscripts were written later. Enoch and other men and woman are said to have been blessed and loved by God before any book of any kind were written.

So how again does the bible ask people to be dumb and not make jet planes?

I never said the bible asks anyone to be dumb. If, however, we pursue biblical "wisdom," and let gawd "guide" us, how will the really useful stuff be discovered?

Answered previously

Seeking understanding from something that has never revealed itself to any of a myriad of groups in the same way twice, what are we supposed to glean? What understanding are we to receive from any holy manuscript that has improved anyone's life in even close to the same manner as those described in the OP?

Debatable. Many people great satisfaction and improvement in their lives from following religious texts. Just read testimonies of how God has changed a persons life for this to be found incorrect.

What knowledge or understanding derived from any holy manuscript has genuinely and consistently improved humanity (that would not have been possible by any other means)?

Where in nature do you see a tenet treat others as you want to be treated. Do children express this knowledge of altruism? Do animals show that we should treat others they way we want to be treated?

Despite even having this knowledge are the majority of mankind's actions reciprocal in this nature?
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 12:51:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 1:23:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:24:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
goddidit!

"I do not believe God exists, but I hate him"

--Bulproof

Atheism= mental disorder.

Nice try. Now demonstrate atheism is indicative of a mental illness.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 1:07:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 12:42:40 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Seriously? they serve as two different functions...
Our brains are what we were given to be able to think, reason and produce for ourselves "agriculturally and industrially". Rememeber...God said be fruitful and multiply...he essentially gave us the dominion and the resources of the earth.

The scriptures are what we are given to be able to think, reason and produce that which is eternal and relevant to God, which are spiritual matters, which in Christianity is the "larger concern". If you're not a theist then this is not a concern of course.
But to believers our "earthly temple" is not as significant as our spiritual temple.

The focus of the scriptures are not for the building up of the "outer" man but the inner. Not physical qualities but internal qualities.

Gandalf said, "There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power!" Qui-Gon Jinn once said," May the Force be with you."
We as human beings, must utilize the force in an advantageous fashion so that we may manifest ourselves as the most genuine and ultimate Jedi! These quotes from movies can be referenced all day, but the citations are tentative and possibly invalid until demonstrable evidence depicts otherwise. Thus, why do you cite what god has said? What credibility does the word of god contain?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 1:47:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 1:07:07 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 6/14/2014 12:42:40 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
Seriously? they serve as two different functions...
Our brains are what we were given to be able to think, reason and produce for ourselves "agriculturally and industrially". Rememeber...God said be fruitful and multiply...he essentially gave us the dominion and the resources of the earth.

The scriptures are what we are given to be able to think, reason and produce that which is eternal and relevant to God, which are spiritual matters, which in Christianity is the "larger concern". If you're not a theist then this is not a concern of course.
But to believers our "earthly temple" is not as significant as our spiritual temple.

The focus of the scriptures are not for the building up of the "outer" man but the inner. Not physical qualities but internal qualities.

Gandalf said, "There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power!" Qui-Gon Jinn once said," May the Force be with you."
We as human beings, must utilize the force in an advantageous fashion so that we may manifest ourselves as the most genuine and ultimate Jedi! These quotes from movies can be referenced all day, but the citations are tentative and possibly invalid until demonstrable evidence depicts otherwise. Thus, why do you cite what god has said? What credibility does the word of god contain?

Do you think Dark Energy exists?
There is no demonstrable evidence for this.

Do you think something physical (matter or energy) can be in 2 different places at the exact same time?
Demonstrable evidence shows the fundamental parts of matter can. Which is in contrast to how we define "physical"

Do you think eye witness accounts in court should be disregarded?
After all 100 years from now they will mean very little to people who were not there in the court room.

Do you think life exists somewhere else in the universe?
If you do, you have demonstrable evidence for this of course. To be intellectually honest.

When you are walking across a street and look both ways for a car. Do you have demonstrable evidence no car is there?

When you read a science text book that ice is slippery because pressure from a foot or ice skate melts the ice, did you accept it as true?
So if it is from the right kind of book you will except it as truth.

How do you think a helicopter stays in the air?
What ever your explanation is have you seen the demonstrable evidence for this explanation? or are you accepting it because it sounds and looks good enough?

You know Scientific knowledge is not solely based on the scientific method?
You do know that Logically valid does not mean True?
You are aware that what can mathematically be written on paper, or Computer generated is not proof of something in reality?

I know the same standard you apply to theist claims you apply to all claims and statements you hear or read from anyone, right?
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 1:58:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 12:51:51 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 6/14/2014 1:23:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:24:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
goddidit!

"I do not believe God exists, but I hate him"

--Bulproof

Atheism= mental disorder.

Nice try. Now demonstrate atheism is indicative of a mental illness.

Goo likes to think everybody has a mental illness, it makes him feel less alone. :)
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 12:53:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
<snip>
Don't let kindness leave you - no "holy" manuscript required.
Favor and good repute with gawd - not a concern, if this one isn't there...

The chapter you quote from says the way a person treats others is an outward sign of the wisdom and understanding they gain.

Actually, this entire chapter was dedicated to extolling the "wisdom" of keeping "the lord" first and foremost in one's mind. Looking to the "spiritual" in preference to the physical. Preferring the "spiritual" to the physical yields less useful results. Humanity's history proves that out.

Trust in the 'lord' for what, exactly? Knowledge? Knowledge of what? Will the knowledge for which one trusts in the 'lord' make life better for humanity? If so, how?

Same way it has already be done. God beleiving people made life better for the mankind and discovered things that opened whole new understandings.:
http://www.debate.org...

The list of famous or intelligent people that believed in gawd are no more impactive than a list of those who did not. What I find hilarious is that none of the people listed in that thread discovered or contributed what they did by studying any holy manuscript. The only time one makes a great discovery or contribution is when they are studying something other than an "holy" manuscript.

Lean not on your own understanting - Why not? Leaving 'understanding' to be explained by a "holy" spirit or gawd's guidance doesn't appear to be very consistent...


"Lean not unto your own understanding" is not a message to not seek wisdom and understanding.

I fully understand what was intended by that entire chapter. The fact that the entire chapter is dedicated to "letting the wisdom of gawd" be the ultimate focus means that more importance must be given to seeking out "spiritual" things. I find that "spiritual enlightenment is of little use, if any.

It is saying do not mistake the hypothesis, systems, and self establishing ideas you have with Truth.

No, it is not saying that. It is saying that spiritual knowledge is more important than the conclusions one draws on one's own. I find it funny that it also claims that "clouds drop down the dew." This is actually physically incorrect. Why would anyone look to a book that got so much wrong, for guidance?

That wisdom and understanding are in searching the way God does things.

And there is no field of study (not a valid one, anyway) for this endeavor. The only thing anyone has available for what you just proposed is a bunch of dusty garbage that is outright wrong about so much (physical reality), and presents bloody, immoral, unjust behavior as the "wisdom of gawd." I chose that passage, specifically, because the words used sum up the way it is presented to people: Do not seek your own understanding. Seek the understanding of gawd.
Where, precisely, is one to seek the understanding of gawd? I find it more than curious that it seems to have only two sources: A) A bunch of worthless ancient manuscripts and, B) those that claim to speak on behalf of (interpret) their specific chosen gawd. Both sources are neither trustworthy nor meaningful, with respect to mankind.

"By wisdom the Lord laid the foundation of the earth; he established the heavens by understanding. By his knowledge the primordial sea was broken open and the clouds drip down dew"

No, he didn't. None of it is true. "He" doesn't exist.

God made the natural laws.

No, he didn't. "He" doesn't exist.

It says don't be a dick to people. Don't be arrogant thinking you are always right. Trust in God to show you the right way to do things. And give him props.

Don't be a dick - Check. No "holy" manuscript required. Do you know of a group of people more dick'ish than the vast majority of those that believe they have gawd "on their side?"

Your right you don't need a holy manuscript to be a dick or arrogant.

Nor is one required to prevent being one. In fact, I find the majority of the possessors of said characteristics to be among those with religious convictions in the affirmative.

Don't be arrogant - Check. See #1 (replace "dick'ish" with "arrogant.")
Trust gawd - Check. What if there is no gawd? I know the ones humanity has worshiped aren't there...

This is debatable. But Einstein spoke of God and it was not one worshiped by humanity. Einstein spoke of a god that made the universe and the natural laws. Searching for God has it's own rewards apart from ever being able to find god.

Obviously, it's debatable. We're here, aren't we? "Someone famous is in our camp..." Christians have been trying, for years, the throw Einstein in their camp and Hitler in ours. Einstein was more of a deist, along the lines of Spinoza. That doesn't mean he was correct.


Wisdom and Truth - Check. No "holy" manuscript required.


The manuscripts were written later. Enoch and other men and woman are said to have been blessed and loved by God before any book of any kind were written.

And? The time during which "holy" manuscripts were written were periods of great ignorance, on the part of humanity. This ignorance is reflected in these manuscripts. Had they been "divinely inspired," they should contain no such ignorance.

So how again does the bible ask people to be dumb and not make jet planes?

I never said the bible asks anyone to be dumb. If, however, we pursue biblical "wisdom," and let gawd "guide" us, how will the really useful stuff be discovered?

Answered previously

No, it wasn't.

Seeking understanding from something that has never revealed itself to any of a myriad of groups in the same way twice, what are we supposed to glean? What understanding are we to receive from any holy manuscript that has improved anyone's life in even close to the same manner as those described in the OP?

Debatable. Many people great satisfaction and improvement in their lives from following religious texts. Just read testimonies of how God has changed a persons life for this to be found incorrect.

No, this one is not debatable. No two religious groups "know" gawd the same way. It's clear that the "spiritual" is a completely human concept: Of human origin, of human design, with human flaws, and subject to human manipulation.

What knowledge or understanding derived from any holy manuscript has genuinely and consistently improved humanity (that would not have been possible by any other means)?

Where in nature do you see a tenet treat others as you want to be treated. Do children express this knowledge of altruism? Do animals show that we should treat others they way we want to be treated?

And the Ethic of Reciprocity was around long before these holy manuscripts. There are references to it centuries prior to the birth of the jeebus or muhammed, or any other religious founder. Oddly, this ethic does not appear in the OT, at all. Neither does its implementation. Altruism does exist, in the animal kingdom. To state otherwise indicates great ignorance. Look it up.

Despite even having this knowledge are the majority of mankind's actions reciprocal in this nature?

No, the majority bear out more tyranny.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 7:24:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 12:53:21 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
<snip>
Don't let kindness leave you - no "holy" manuscript required.
Favor and good repute with gawd - not a concern, if this one isn't there...

The chapter you quote from says the way a person treats others is an outward sign of the wisdom and understanding they gain.

Actually, this entire chapter was dedicated to extolling the "wisdom" of keeping "the lord" first and foremost in one's mind. Looking to the "spiritual" in preference to the physical. Preferring the "spiritual" to the physical yields less useful results. Humanity's history proves that out.


The majority of proverbs is about smart things to do in this world. This chapter is not on spiritual wisdom. It clearly states that wisdom is NOT in the thoughts of man or man made systems but from treating each other well and looking to the natural world to discern knowledge.

I suggest you read the chapters in proverbs skipping the words LORD and stuff. Because as soon as you read any reference of God, your brain goes nuts, and you think the whole thing refers to something spiritual or metaphysical.

The chapter shows you that God established the natural laws and effects the world by natural laws. If God exists it would not effect things supernaturally, but in accordance with the laws of physics. God made such laws.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/15/2014 9:25:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?


Lol ok bro.

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"
""Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Plz stahp.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 2:28:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 9:25:37 PM, popculturepooka wrote::

Lol ok bro.

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"

Yes, I can see using that as a blueprint to create a skyscraper.

""Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."

Let us "reason..." and then goes on to talk about "sin." Sin is a religious concept, and not worthy of my time. Further, it would not help me design a voltage regulated power supply for radio receiver now, would it?

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Oh, I'm sorry! Yes, I can see how that would provide me with the fuel mixture ration required in order to reach escape velocity of earth's gravity. What was I thinking? It always amazes me what theists believe to be a valid rebuttal. You are aware that biblical texts are not valid evidence in favor of religious assertions, right?

Plz stahp.

While I'm not big on internet "chatanese," I am forced to reply with, "Srsly?" Come back to me when you have something a little more substantive.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 2:44:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 7:24:38 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/15/2014 12:53:21 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
<snip>
Don't let kindness leave you - no "holy" manuscript required.
Favor and good repute with gawd - not a concern, if this one isn't there...

The chapter you quote from says the way a person treats others is an outward sign of the wisdom and understanding they gain.

Actually, this entire chapter was dedicated to extolling the "wisdom" of keeping "the lord" first and foremost in one's mind. Looking to the "spiritual" in preference to the physical. Preferring the "spiritual" to the physical yields less useful results. Humanity's history proves that out.


The majority of proverbs is about smart things to do in this world. This chapter is not on spiritual wisdom. It clearly states that wisdom is NOT in the thoughts of man or man made systems but from treating each other well and looking to the natural world to discern knowledge.

Funny, I took away something completely different. Besides, I believe you're the first theist I've ever heard use the phrase (in the positive) '...looking to the natural world...' Knowledge is very rarely something one can "discern." It's usually something that one "acquires," and takes work. It requires effort and diligence. The only knowledge available through faith is that which requires further faith. That which is acquired on faith can never have any solid foundation in reality.

I suggest you read the chapters in proverbs skipping the words LORD and stuff. Because as soon as you read any reference of God, your brain goes nuts, and you think the whole thing refers to something spiritual or metaphysical.


You presume to know how I perceive things. This is your first mistake. You presume that I have not already read the bible. This is your next mistake. You presume that the bible is a factual document. This is your ultimate mistake. As far as I am aware, there is nothing "spiritual," and I find it comical that you use the term "metaphysical." I am not deeply concerned with the nature of being and existence. That "journey" is best left to Ivory Tower wannabe's. The real Ivory Tower belongs to those that propagate meaningful information. The bible is not meaningful. It never has been. It never will be.

The chapter shows you that God established the natural laws and effects the world by natural laws. If God exists it would not effect things supernaturally, but in accordance with the laws of physics. God made such laws.

No, no gawd "established" the world. The "laws" that exist are intrinsic to the nature of matter. The laws of how matter interacts are subject to them, because they are necessarily subject to them. No gawd was required. The injection of a gawd simply makes everything ambiguous.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 7:56:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 2:28:01 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:25:37 PM, popculturepooka wrote::

Lol ok bro.

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;"

Yes, I can see using that as a blueprint to create a skyscraper.


No....it's a general principle of critical thinking.

""Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool."

Let us "reason..." and then goes on to talk about "sin." Sin is a religious concept, and not worthy of my time. Further, it would not help me design a voltage regulated power supply for radio receiver now, would it?


Who cares? Why would knowledge imparted only be constrained to scientific matters?

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Oh, I'm sorry! Yes, I can see how that would provide me with the fuel mixture ration required in order to reach escape velocity of earth's gravity. What was I thinking? It always amazes me what theists believe to be a valid rebuttal. You are aware that biblical texts are not valid evidence in favor of religious assertions, right?


You alleged to show what the bible says on this subject...I provided some verses to put it in context your singular cherry picking. You are aware that biblical texts showing what the BIBLE says about certain things are evidence in favor of what the BIBLE says about certain things....right? Which is exactly the dialectic you set up. smh It's interesting how you decide to switch the subject. The subject is wha the bible says about critical thinking/reasoning, in which in clearly promotes it. I show this and then alluva sudden biblical texts don't count as evidence for what the bible says. Excellent reasoning, sir.

Plz stahp.

While I'm not big on internet "chatanese," I am forced to reply with, "Srsly?" Come back to me when you have something a little more substantive.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 8:32:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 7:56:52 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
No....it's a general principle of critical thinking.
What part of critical thinking results in god?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 11:49:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 2:44:08 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/15/2014 7:24:38 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/15/2014 12:53:21 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
<snip>
Don't let kindness leave you - no "holy" manuscript required.
Favor and good repute with gawd - not a concern, if this one isn't there...

The chapter you quote from says the way a person treats others is an outward sign of the wisdom and understanding they gain.

Actually, this entire chapter was dedicated to extolling the "wisdom" of keeping "the lord" first and foremost in one's mind. Looking to the "spiritual" in preference to the physical. Preferring the "spiritual" to the physical yields less useful results. Humanity's history proves that out.


The majority of proverbs is about smart things to do in this world. This chapter is not on spiritual wisdom. It clearly states that wisdom is NOT in the thoughts of man or man made systems but from treating each other well and looking to the natural world to discern knowledge.

Funny, I took away something completely different. Besides, I believe you're the first theist I've ever heard use the phrase (in the positive) '...looking to the natural world...' Knowledge is very rarely something one can "discern." It's usually something that one "acquires," and takes work. It requires effort and diligence. The only knowledge available through faith is that which requires further faith. That which is acquired on faith can never have any solid foundation in reality.


You said what knowledge from the bible has helped any one. I showed that the bible especially the chapter you quoted was encouraging to seek understanding of the natural (how god did it).

Blue prints for a skyscraper or a Boeing 757 are not in the bible. Just like they are not in Hamlet, or Scarlett Letter. It's not part of it's subject matter.

But proverbs is about seeking wisdom. The lean not unto your own understanding is saying don't put confidence in how you think things work or the hypothetical explanations you come up with because they sound "right". And it clearly says to be kind to people, study nature, and trust in god to reward you and keep you safe.

That knowledge is what has inspired and lead the people I remarked about earlier to change the world.

I suggest you read the chapters in proverbs skipping the words LORD and stuff. Because as soon as you read any reference of God, your brain goes nuts, and you think the whole thing refers to something spiritual or metaphysical.


You presume to know how I perceive things. This is your first mistake. You presume that I have not already read the bible. This is your next mistake. You presume that the bible is a factual document. This is your ultimate mistake. As far as I am aware, there is nothing "spiritual," and I find it comical that you use the term "metaphysical." I am not deeply concerned with the nature of being and existence. That "journey" is best left to Ivory Tower wannabe's. The real Ivory Tower belongs to those that propagate meaningful information. The bible is not meaningful. It never has been. It never will be.


Metaphysical: of or relating to things that are thought to exist but that cannot be seen. http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Seems adequate for "spiritual". You are under the ideologies that outright already assume and presuppose that spirit does not exist. That is why I used metaphysical. Once some substance is discovered that is a force or energy that drives life, it will then become part of what we know to exist. Sure science won't call it spirit. Probably the Vital force.

I don't take the whole bible as factual. But the whole bible as a factual document is not what your OP debates. You claim the Bible has no knowledge in it that serves to better mankind. And that no one who has bettered mankind got any useful knowledge from bible.

Your are wrong on both counts as I have pointed out the proverbs have some very good sayings and knowledge, about how to live right and think critically about things. Then I showed you a list of people who took this understanding and applied it to matters that bettered mankind.

The chapter shows you that God established the natural laws and effects the world by natural laws. If God exists it would not effect things supernaturally, but in accordance with the laws of physics. God made such laws.

No, no gawd "established" the world. The "laws" that exist are intrinsic to the nature of matter. The laws of how matter interacts are subject to them, because they are necessarily subject to them. No gawd was required. The injection of a gawd simply makes everything ambiguous.

And this is why you can't read the bible and take anything of value from it. As soon as you read the words god you lose all understanding of the point being made.

1) you can not prove how the laws of nature are established. How or why they are the way they are. So your rebuttal is just as empty as the assertion

2) I was making a point that such a God, if existing, would not have to break the natural laws to accomplish it's will. It could do what it wanted inside the universe based on the Laws of physics.
andymcstab
Posts: 308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 12:43:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

Well, this is junk.
You have done nothing to show that belief in God is contrary to our critical faculties.

You behave like a propagandist in your selective quotation of the Bible.

Proverbs 1:5
Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance,

Proverbs 18:15
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Proverbs 10:17
Whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof leads others astray.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:9
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal things,but the glory of kings is to search things out.

Exodus 31:1-5
I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft.

And you will find, the origins of science, of art, of architecture, of literature and of music, they were all developed through religion. The origins of literacy are entirely spawned from religious heritage. We can thank the belief in a rational law-giver for the products of science, as this was the belief of the first scientists without which their efforts would be in vain. You won't find any great ancient building, artwork or book that wasn't religiously inspired.

In summary, you got nothing.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 1:10:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 8:32:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/16/2014 7:56:52 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
No....it's a general principle of critical thinking.
What part of critical thinking results in god?

Waht part of critical thinking doesn't result in god?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 1:11:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/16/2014 12:43:55 PM, andymcstab wrote:
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
I know that theists have some way of rationalizing every single atrocity within the pages of the their "holy" manuscripts as "good," simply based on the fact that you accept it as "gawd's word." But to accept such ludicrous nonsense requires the absolute debasement of everything that places humanity on a level even remotely superior to any other animal:
Thought. Our critical faculties are what separate us from the "lower" life forms. Humans are the only creature, of which we are aware, capable of passing the cumulative sum total of knowledge from one generation to the next (whales are a possible exception: whale song). This, today, can be done accurately, with factual and accurate records. It came from our evolved ability to reason.

Our ability to reason has raised skyscrapers.
Our ability to reason has allowed jetpowered flight.
Our ability to reason has provided the thrill of roller coasters.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to discover and manipulate the atom.
Our ability to reason has allowed us to identify and combat viruses/germs/bacteria.
Our ability to reason has built transcontinental railroads.
Our ability to reason has peered farther into the night sky than ever before possible.
Our ability to reason built CERN.
Our ability to reason has made satellite communication possible.
Our ability to reason developed the handheld computer that you call a cell phone, today.
Our ability to reason has controlled and manipulated light to the point of capturing images and video.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery and manipulation of radio waves to send sound into space
Our ability to reason has allowed the manipulation of micro waves to cook your meals, in minutes.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of the fundamentals of biology and DNA.
Our ability to reason has allowed the discovery of rockets to send our astronauts into space.
Our ability to reason has allowed the development of lasers that remove unwanted hair, repair vision.
Our ability to reason has allowed was required to end slavery that the bible mandates, by "divine edict."
The list is virtually endless. What new wonders will our ability to reason bring about, in our future?

In contrast, what does the bible have to say about seeking out knowledge?

Proverbs 3:5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression? I am often kept awake, at night, with the thought that the book responsible for so much tyranny, oppression, and bloodshed is the same book that led George W. Bush to suppress embryonic stem cell research, having "prayed about it." It is the same book upon which Sarah Palin (momentary pause to suppress rising bile) bases her belief that she should have the authority to force a young victim of rape to carry that reminder of traumatic terror to term, based on her own religious convictions. These "holy" manuscripts have been used more as weapons or as divine authority for the carriage of man's inhumanity to man, than as anything even remotely approaching a "moral guide." With all that of which humans are becoming capable, my question is this:

Don't you think it's time to remove the intellectual shackles of primitive superstition, and begin moving toward a more unified species under the umbrella of humanism, rather than separative religiosity?

Well, this is junk.
You have done nothing to show that belief in God is contrary to our critical faculties.

You behave like a propagandist in your selective quotation of the Bible.

Proverbs 1:5
Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance,

Proverbs 18:15
An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Proverbs 10:17
Whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof leads others astray.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:9
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal things,but the glory of kings is to search things out.

Exodus 31:1-5
I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft.

And you will find, the origins of science, of art, of architecture, of literature and of music, they were all developed through religion. The origins of literacy are entirely spawned from religious heritage. We can thank the belief in a rational law-giver for the products of science, as this was the belief of the first scientists without which their efforts would be in vain. You won't find any great ancient building, artwork or book that wasn't religiously inspired.

In summary, you got nothing.

andy: 1
irreverent: 0
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
12_13
Posts: 1,365
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/16/2014 3:11:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 11:22:21 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
...If humanity were to "...lean not unto..." its own understanding, where would all of the above discoveries/creations have originated? How much more could humanity have learned, were it not for the centuries during which religion suppressed learning, and restricted it to those who were obedient to the church? How much further could man have progressed, had Galileo fled to the new world, rather than suffering church oppression?

And all that will be destroyed. So how reasonable is to think that as superior?

For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?
Matt. 16:26

"Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matthew 6:31-33