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God existing outside spacetime?

KhalifV
Posts: 13
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6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/14/2014 6:54:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

Hi,

We dont know that the God is something we can understand and explain easly his existence by using our current intellectual capacity. You dont need to understand his existence to believe in his existence.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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6/14/2014 7:10:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

Think of our universe like a house we build. Since we have built the house we have existed before and outside its reality, and can continue to do so while we enter the house at our own pleasure. Everything contained within the house is part of the home, but it doesn't apply to us when we are outside the home. In other words, if some being created the u-verse then that same being created the space and time within the u-verse and is capable of existing outside of it.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/14/2014 7:31:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

One importent characteristic of God is - etarnal. thats negating the possibility of time and space, because we know that the univurse came into existence, every material thing (with scape) has beginning (limited time) so the first Cause (not necessary God yeah...) must be eternal that we deducing from rational analysis... i encourage you to watch this lecture -
Faith and Reason: Friends or Foes? Hamza Andreas Tzortzis
https://www.youtube.com...

Its also answers many questions like the above its not necessary only from the Islamic view...
Never fart near dog
PureX
Posts: 1,525
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6/14/2014 7:37:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

By most people's definition/concept of "God", God is a metaphysical phenomenon. And therefor would not be subject to space/time.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/14/2014 7:43:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

The cosmic background radiation is evidence of an emission of light that occurred everywhere in the universe (approx. 380,000 years after the Big Bang). Given the motion of galaxies, science has tracked space back to a singularity.

The idea that the cause of the Big Bang is from outside this universe is not new. And it is not wholly Theistic.

http://www.nature.com...
http://www.math.columbia.edu...
http://phys.org...
http://www.nature.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Atheist last resort is to argue over the definition of "Universe", "Time" and "Space".

So by universe I mean the summation of the energy encapsulated in this space-time Hamiltonian.
KhalifV
Posts: 13
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6/14/2014 7:43:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:37:36 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

By most people's definition/concept of "God", God is a metaphysical phenomenon. And therefor would not be subject to space/time.

How does a metaphysical phenomenon act? If one wants to say god is utterly abstract, and has no physical base like numbers, that is fine, but things like numbers don't cause anything.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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6/14/2014 7:49:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:43:55 PM, KhalifV wrote:
At 6/14/2014 7:37:36 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

By most people's definition/concept of "God", God is a metaphysical phenomenon. And therefor would not be subject to space/time.

How does a metaphysical phenomenon act? If one wants to say god is utterly abstract, and has no physical base like numbers, that is fine, but things like numbers don't cause anything.

"Metaphysical" can be used many ways. It can mean a being which exists outside our perception of physical reality, including time and space.
PureX
Posts: 1,525
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6/14/2014 7:51:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:43:55 PM, KhalifV wrote:
At 6/14/2014 7:37:36 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

By most people's definition/concept of "God", God is a metaphysical phenomenon. And therefor would not be subject to space/time.

How does a metaphysical phenomenon act? If one wants to say god is utterly abstract, and has no physical base like numbers, that is fine, but things like numbers don't cause anything.

Metaphysical phenomena is a mystery to us, because we exist in a physical realm, and perceive only physical phenomena. However, we have developed the capacity to conjecture that some metaphysical realm may exist. And that in itself stands as evidence that such a realm can exist.
KhalifV
Posts: 13
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6/14/2014 7:55:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:43:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

The cosmic background radiation is evidence of an emission of light that occurred everywhere in the universe (approx. 380,000 years after the Big Bang). Given the motion of galaxies, science has tracked space back to a singularity.

The idea that the cause of the Big Bang is from outside this universe is not new. And it is not wholly Theistic.

http://www.nature.com...
http://www.math.columbia.edu...
http://phys.org...
http://www.nature.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Atheist last resort is to argue over the definition of "Universe", "Time" and "Space".

So by universe I mean the summation of the energy encapsulated in this space-time Hamiltonian.
It's like you're diminishing the importance of what one means by universe. This point is vital. If there is one universe,the non-eternal trait of this universe might be convincing evidence for a god, but in modern cosmology, most think we live in a multi or omniverse, which is probably eternal. Also the claim that the universe began with an initial singularity is a tad outdated and unwarranted given quantum effects. Einstien's equations don't adequately account for quantum effects, and we don't yet have a complete quantum gravity model. If quantum effects were not important, the singularity would be great.

I would suggest the work of Andre Linde.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/14/2014 8:12:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:55:31 PM, KhalifV wrote:
At 6/14/2014 7:43:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

The cosmic background radiation is evidence of an emission of light that occurred everywhere in the universe (approx. 380,000 years after the Big Bang). Given the motion of galaxies, science has tracked space back to a singularity.

The idea that the cause of the Big Bang is from outside this universe is not new. And it is not wholly Theistic.

http://www.nature.com...
http://www.math.columbia.edu...
http://phys.org...
http://www.nature.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Atheist last resort is to argue over the definition of "Universe", "Time" and "Space".

So by universe I mean the summation of the energy encapsulated in this space-time Hamiltonian.
It's like you're diminishing the importance of what one means by universe. This point is vital. If there is one universe,the non-eternal trait of this universe might be convincing evidence for a god, but in modern cosmology, most think we live in a multi or omniverse, which is probably eternal.

Your question was How "Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist"

Your own words are "but in modern cosmology, most think we live in a multi or omniverse, which is probably eternal"

If the omniverse is eternal and outside this space-time, Why can God not have the same characteristics?

Also the claim that the universe began with an initial singularity is a tad outdated and unwarranted given quantum effects. Einstien's equations don't adequately account for quantum effects, and we don't yet have a complete quantum gravity model. If quantum effects were not important, the singularity would be great.

I would suggest the work of Andre Linde.

I am familiar with the models.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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6/14/2014 8:20:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does space exist in space? Does time exist in time? No, because that implies a dinsiction between the two which is logically unwarranted. That doesn't mean they aren't real. Indeed, if they aren't real, then how could God exist in them to begin with? Because the real universe by definition contains all that is real, there is no "external reality" (or space, or time) in which it can exist. God is supraphyical, but not supernatural.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/14/2014 8:27:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:55:31 PM, KhalifV wrote:
At 6/14/2014 7:43:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

The cosmic background radiation is evidence of an emission of light that occurred everywhere in the universe (approx. 380,000 years after the Big Bang). Given the motion of galaxies, science has tracked space back to a singularity.

The idea that the cause of the Big Bang is from outside this universe is not new. And it is not wholly Theistic.

http://www.nature.com...
http://www.math.columbia.edu...
http://phys.org...
http://www.nature.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Atheist last resort is to argue over the definition of "Universe", "Time" and "Space".

So by universe I mean the summation of the energy encapsulated in this space-time Hamiltonian.
It's like you're diminishing the importance of what one means by universe.

Notice we can not see past the CMB. That is 380,000 years worth of width on the universe unobserved. I have met Atheist who when faced with the likely hood that there is more than what is the observable universe, they move the goal post by saying the definition of Universe is everything that exists.

With that reasoning a omniverse or other Hamiltonian space-times emerging from an ether would be "The universe"

I find such an argument semantic and similar to saying "The Moon" means all planetary satellites.

Plus if someone wishes to use the broadest definition of universe I want a much more detailed description of Zero-Energy Universe. And when 0-energy universe includes all other Space-times, then there is nothing requiring this particular universe to be 0. As long as the whole of the omniverse is 0, that is sufficient.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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6/14/2014 8:37:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

There's no such thing as space, time or matter. They're only illusions to make us created invisible "beings" believe we are real. We're created as invisible vibrations that are processed into illusions that can only be observed by each individual observer. When an observer isn't observing a certain tree for example, it doesn't exist.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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6/14/2014 9:20:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

Or something that is not made of matter.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
FieldTheory
Posts: 5
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6/15/2014 4:38:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 7:51:57 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/14/2014 7:43:55 PM, KhalifV wrote:
At 6/14/2014 7:37:36 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

By most people's definition/concept of "God", God is a metaphysical phenomenon. And therefor would not be subject to space/time.

How does a metaphysical phenomenon act? If one wants to say god is utterly abstract, and has no physical base like numbers, that is fine, but things like numbers don't cause anything.

Metaphysical phenomena is a mystery to us, because we exist in a physical realm, and perceive only physical phenomena. However, we have developed the capacity to conjecture that some metaphysical realm may exist. And that in itself stands as evidence that such a realm can exist.

I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense.
How do YOU know what's real? Did you discover this through a revelation with Yahweh? People initially believed Aristotle's physics, and only through experiment was the advancement of modern science set in motion, one that lead to the world as we see it. Physics can be proven. Metaphysics can't. Therefore, Metaphysics equally as valid as Religion.
If you sat in a dark room, blindfolded and with your ears cut off (I apologize for the gore), and you wanted to guess what was in front of you. What if, in reality, NOTHING is in front of you, but you were simply making the assumption that something is there? This is how I view metaphysics. You don't know if anything is there so don't make assumptions. When physicists come up with theories, they are mostly well motivated and are able to explain experimental phenomena. In metaphysics, theories do not fit into any one of these categories.
FieldTheory
Posts: 5
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6/15/2014 4:40:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 6:54:51 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/14/2014 6:32:18 PM, KhalifV wrote:
Theists like to say god created the universe, but space and time came into the existence with the universe, how can a god exist in no space and time? Something that exists in no space and time sounds awfully close to something that does not exist.

Hi,

We dont know that the God is something we can understand and explain easly his existence by using our current intellectual capacity. You dont need to understand his existence to believe in his existence.

So you're saying its okay to not know what you're believing in?
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/15/2014 4:59:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 4:40:59 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
So you're saying its okay to not know what you're believing in ?

Yeah, I dont need to know who had produced the fridge which I found on the Mars, I can understand that its self-formation is impossible and this is enough for me to believe it was put there by an intelligent mind, even if I dont see him and I cant explain his existence.
FieldTheory
Posts: 5
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6/15/2014 5:10:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 4:59:55 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/15/2014 4:40:59 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
So you're saying its okay to not know what you're believing in ?

Yeah, I dont need to know who had produced the fridge which I found on the Mars, I can understand that its self-formation is impossible and this is enough for me to believe it was put there by an intelligent mind, even if I dont see him and I cant explain his existence.

Here's where you make your mistake: self formation of the universe is possible.
In fact, particles arising from nothing is possible
see the links below:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/15/2014 5:20:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 5:10:58 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
Here's where you make your mistake: self formation of the universe is possible.
In fact, particles arising from nothing is possible
see the links below:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

This is the point a theist and a-theist have separated from each other. One believe its impossible to be created by chance, other one believes its possible. The common point is both cannot prove their "beliefs" experimentally.

Peace
PureX
Posts: 1,525
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6/15/2014 5:49:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 4:38:27 AM, FieldTheory wrote:

I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it nonsense.

How do YOU know what's real?

Ideas are part of reality. Ideas are "real". Metaphysics is an idea, derived from our experiences of reality and generated in our real physical brains, which developed via the laws of physical reality as we know it. Just because you don't like the idea, or agree with it, doesn't make it nonsense, and it doesn't make it unreal.

Physics can be proven. Metaphysics can't. Therefore, Metaphysics equally as valid as Religion.

It's the nature of physical reality that calls for the existence of a metaphysical reality. It's the nature of physical reality that created the conception of a metaphysical reality. They are not separable.

If you sat in a dark room, blindfolded and with your ears cut off (I apologize for the gore), and you wanted to guess what was in front of you. What if, in reality, NOTHING is in front of you, but you were simply making the assumption that something is there? This is how I view metaphysics.

The truth be told, this is how you and I view everything. Our senses and our minds are limited by our own physical reality, and therefor create and limit our perception/conception of reality. We can't know the whole of what is, or isn't. What we think we know is just a collection of inter-related assumptions. Once we accept that we have these limitations, many things become possible that were not possible for us to conceive of, before.

You don't know if anything is there so don't make assumptions. When physicists come up with theories, they are mostly well motivated and are able to explain experimental phenomena. In metaphysics, theories do not fit into any one of these categories.

Physicists study physics. So they can't tell us a much about philosophy, or art, or god. And yet philosophy, and art, and god, remain a significant part of the human experience. And they always have. You are making the mistake of setting one form of human inquiry above all the others, and then using that bias to dismiss all the others as "nonsense".

That would be a very foolish thing to do.
FieldTheory
Posts: 5
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6/15/2014 6:02:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 5:20:49 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/15/2014 5:10:58 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
Here's where you make your mistake: self formation of the universe is possible.
In fact, particles arising from nothing is possible
see the links below:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

This is the point a theist and a-theist have separated from each other. One believe its impossible to be created by chance, other one believes its possible. The common point is both cannot prove their "beliefs" experimentally.

Peace

I totally agree with you, however I am not an atheist and neither am I a theist.
The thing is, this virtual particle phenomena for example, arises from perturbation theory. Scientists can measure the effect they have on the system they are observing. Quantum mechanics has agreed with almost every experiment imaginable. The emergence of a Universe from nothing is, however, plausible, but not yet scientifically proven.
FieldTheory
Posts: 5
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6/15/2014 6:09:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 5:49:01 AM, PureX wrote:
At 6/15/2014 4:38:27 AM, FieldTheory wrote:

I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it nonsense.

How do YOU know what's real?

Ideas are part of reality. Ideas are "real". Metaphysics is an idea, derived from our experiences of reality and generated in our real physical brains, which developed via the laws of physical reality as we know it. Just because you don't like the idea, or agree with it, doesn't make it nonsense, and it doesn't make it unreal.

Physics can be proven. Metaphysics can't. Therefore, Metaphysics equally as valid as Religion.

It's the nature of physical reality that calls for the existence of a metaphysical reality. It's the nature of physical reality that created the conception of a metaphysical reality. They are not separable.

If you sat in a dark room, blindfolded and with your ears cut off (I apologize for the gore), and you wanted to guess what was in front of you. What if, in reality, NOTHING is in front of you, but you were simply making the assumption that something is there? This is how I view metaphysics.

The truth be told, this is how you and I view everything. Our senses and our minds are limited by our own physical reality, and therefor create and limit our perception/conception of reality. We can't know the whole of what is, or isn't. What we think we know is just a collection of inter-related assumptions. Once we accept that we have these limitations, many things become possible that were not possible for us to conceive of, before.

You don't know if anything is there so don't make assumptions. When physicists come up with theories, they are mostly well motivated and are able to explain experimental phenomena. In metaphysics, theories do not fit into any one of these categories.

Physicists study physics. So they can't tell us a much about philosophy, or art, or god. And yet philosophy, and art, and god, remain a significant part of the human experience. And they always have. You are making the mistake of setting one form of human inquiry above all the others, and then using that bias to dismiss all the others as "nonsense".

That would be a very foolish thing to do.

I never set one form of human inquiry over all the others, I was simply saying metaphysics is not reliable in any way whatsoever. And no we don't view everything in such a way. Like I said, we can interact with the material world, but we don't know and we can't prove there is anything beyond it. This means that anything goes. Me saying a giant cat is sitting up there drinking some whiskey is just as valid as the claims metaphysics makes about things that are beyond the physical world. When anything goes, you know that something is not well defined.
Now lets say you argue about validity; I would have to give a reason as to why a giant cat is up there getting drunk, I would simply tell you you can't disprove it and neither can you say it is unlikely because of the very same reasons above.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/15/2014 6:32:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 5:10:58 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
At 6/15/2014 4:59:55 AM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/15/2014 4:40:59 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
So you're saying its okay to not know what you're believing in ?

Yeah, I dont need to know who had produced the fridge which I found on the Mars, I can understand that its self-formation is impossible and this is enough for me to believe it was put there by an intelligent mind, even if I dont see him and I cant explain his existence.

Here's where you make your mistake: self formation of the universe is possible.
In fact, particles arising from nothing is possible
see the links below:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

How could the universe self form?
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/16/2014 3:07:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 6:02:04 AM, FieldTheory wrote:
I totally agree with you, however I am not an atheist and neither am I a theist.
The thing is, this virtual particle phenomena for example, arises from perturbation :theory. Scientists can measure the effect they have on the system they :are observing. Quantum mechanics has agreed with almost every experiment :imaginable. The emergence of a Universe from nothing is, however, plausible, but not :yet scientifically proven.

I'm not sure what are you trying to say, can you explain what is "nothing" ?