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What is Truth?

Skyangel
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6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
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6/15/2014 9:38:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

A statement is shown to be true if it can be verified.

Anyone who says that a statement is true, simply because it was them that made the statement, is both arrogant and naive.

A statement can be true consistent with someone's belief that it is true, but never because of it.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 9:38:45 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

A statement is shown to be true if it can be verified.
What method would you use to verify them? A public vote?
Can you list any statements in the bible which be verified?


Anyone who says that a statement is true, simply because it was them that made the statement, is both arrogant and naive.
If a character claims to be the truth, do you think that character is arrogant and a naive?


A statement can be true consistent with someone's belief that it is true, but never because of it.

A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true. Many are deceived by those kind of statements which they believe are true.
What is the difference between the truth and the illusion of the truth?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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6/17/2014 2:54:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true.
Provide several examples for scrutiny?
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
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6/17/2014 3:53:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:38:45 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

A statement is shown to be true if it can be verified.
What method would you use to verify them? A public vote?
There is no general answer, and the verification can be anywhere from 'weak' to 'certainty'. The best method of verification must be decided on a case-by-case basis, so you will need to provide specific examples of claims or statements. Sorry I can't do better.

Can you list any statements in the bible which be verified?
Not personally, but I'm sure there are many biblical statements that can be verified to some extent, though few at the level of 'near certainty' just because of the age of the claims and the number of times they have 'changed hands'.


Anyone who says that a statement is true, simply because it was them that made the statement, is both arrogant and naive.
If a character claims to be the truth, do you think that character is arrogant and a naive?
I'm sorry, but I don't know what it means to 'be the truth'. If it is a claim that the person knows the answer to any and every question, then yes, I would regard the person as arrogant, perhaps naive, perhaps deliberately dishonest, perhaps misguided, but certainly mistaken. I would suppose your question relates to a biblical character. As an atheist, I have given a general answer, the same answer I would give regarding ANYONE that would claim to know everything.



A statement can be true consistent with someone's belief that it is true, but never because of it.

A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true. Many are deceived by those kind of statements which they believe are true.
What is the difference between the truth and the illusion of the truth?
Again, it gets down to evidence/verification.

Sorry, I don't think I have said anything of value, or that you did not already know, but as I replied to your original post, felt I has an obligation to respond.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 2:54:52 AM, Composer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true.
Provide several examples for scrutiny?

Most Christians believe all the statements in the bible are true. Pick any statement you want out of the bible.
How many can be verified as being true? If they cannot be verified as being true, why do Christians believe the bible is true ?
How many can be verified as being a lie? If they cannot be verified as being a lie, why do many people consider them to be lies?

Start with the following example.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Can that be verified as being true? Where is the evidence that Adam and Eve died on the same day they ate of the fruit of the tree?

Did God tell the truth?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/17/2014 4:48:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 3:53:18 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:38:45 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

A statement is shown to be true if it can be verified.
What method would you use to verify them? A public vote?
There is no general answer, and the verification can be anywhere from 'weak' to 'certainty'. The best method of verification must be decided on a case-by-case basis, so you will need to provide specific examples of claims or statements. Sorry I can't do better.

Can you list any statements in the bible which be verified?
Not personally, but I'm sure there are many biblical statements that can be verified to some extent, though few at the level of 'near certainty' just because of the age of the claims and the number of times they have 'changed hands'.


Anyone who says that a statement is true, simply because it was them that made the statement, is both arrogant and naive.
If a character claims to be the truth, do you think that character is arrogant and a naive?
I'm sorry, but I don't know what it means to 'be the truth'. If it is a claim that the person knows the answer to any and every question, then yes, I would regard the person as arrogant, perhaps naive, perhaps deliberately dishonest, perhaps misguided, but certainly mistaken. I would suppose your question relates to a biblical character. As an atheist, I have given a general answer, the same answer I would give regarding ANYONE that would claim to know everything.


Yes my question relates to the character Jesus claiming to BE the truth, the way and the life.
I find it interesting that so far only two Atheists have bothered commenting.

The character Jesus claimed to be all kinds of things. The only way the statements he made can be true is if they are not literal but metaphorical. If you take them literally and believe a real live person spoke them, he was a lying mad man.



A statement can be true consistent with someone's belief that it is true, but never because of it.

A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true. Many are deceived by those kind of statements which they believe are true.
What is the difference between the truth and the illusion of the truth?
Again, it gets down to evidence/verification.

Is the following statement true or false or an illusion of truth? ... The sun rises every morning.
Does observing the sun rise every morning verify that the sun rises every morning?

Sorry, I don't think I have said anything of value, or that you did not already know, but as I replied to your original post, felt I has an obligation to respond.

Thank you for your response.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/17/2014 6:37:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

What's so confusing in John 14? It's pretty clear and the last part of the passage solidifies the meaning. "No man comes to the Father, but by me". It ties in to 1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The verse simply demonstrates that Jesus, what He did and what He taught is the avenue
to salvation, life with God. He is the "bridge" or connection between the Father and man.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/17/2014 9:37:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 6:37:30 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

What's so confusing in John 14? It's pretty clear and the last part of the passage solidifies the meaning. "No man comes to the Father, but by me". It ties in to 1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The verse simply demonstrates that Jesus, what He did and what He taught is the avenue
to salvation, life with God. He is the "bridge" or connection between the Father and man.

What is confusing to Atheists is the whole concept that God is a character in the sky and Jesus is somehow the son of that invisible character yet Jesus is also God. If Jesus IS the God the Father, referring to an invisible character in the sky, how can anyone come to the Father, the invisible character through the Father who is also his own son?
Are you your own son? Are you your own Father? Do you see how that concept is illogical to the people who perceive the bible God in the same way as any other mythical gods?
God is apparently a saviour who saves people from what exactly? What are Christians saved from that non christians are not saved from?
If God wants all men to be saved, why doesn't he save them all? Is He incapable of doing so?
Why give them an ultimatum that they must believe he exists and believe he will save them from something before he actually saves them from it?
If you were drowning in an ocean and needed to be saved from drowning, and another person was capable of saving you, would it be kind or loving of them to not save you unless you believed they existed and were capable of saving you? What if you were floating face down in the water and were not even conscious that they existed or were even watching you? Should they leave you to die in the ocean because you did not yell out to them to save you? How stupid and unkind would they be for leaving you there?

How can Jesus be a mediator between man and God if Jesus is God? How is anyone supposed to believe in a mediator which they cannot see and how exactly does an invisible mediator bring them any closer to believing an invisible God who is supposed to save them from something? They don't even think they need to be saved from anything except the religious delusions in the world. They think it is the believers who need saving from their delusions and from their imaginary God.

If God is not a man but is indeed the TRUTH personified and the TRUTH will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Then the TRUTH must reveal itself to humans as being the TRUTH.
How should it do that? By claiming "I am the TRUTH" ???
How many would believe you if God ( the Spirit of Truth) spoke through you and said "I am the TRUTH"
Very few would even understand what you were talking about let alone understand what you were saying or understand you were not referring to your own physical body.

What does TRUTH set people free from ? Does it set them free from deceptions or not? IF it does, can it set them free from the deception if the deceived do not believe the TRUTH in the first place?
If people do not believe Truth what else can set them free from deceptions? Is there anything at all?

Facing the TRUTH is not always an easy thing to do,especially for those who think Jesus, was a historical man and only that man alone is God. They are IDOLIZING an individual instead of understanding the SPIRIT of TRUTH is in ALL REALITY and is not just some individual father figure in the heavens.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The above is a principle which is personified through a story character. The character is fictional but the principle or concept is real. The principle is about living a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH. No man can arrive at any truthful conclusion if you believe fairy tales or myths. You must follow truthful and realistic concepts to arrive at truthful and realistic conclusions.
The "father" or the source of TRUTH is TRUTH. Truth can reproduce only truth. In that sense the source ( father) and the product ( son) are exactly the same thing. Truth is always manifested through all of reality not just through one historical person. Those who live in truth live in God and God lives in them even if they do not believe in any mythical invisible characters in the sky.

The only people who need saving are those who live a life of deception and worship an idol and claim only their idol is God and no one elses idol is God.

The TRUTH does not need to be idolized or worshiped with any kind of religious rituals.
A WAY of LIFE does not need to be worshiped like a father figure in the sky who demands obedience.
These things are not supernatural beings. They are concepts which humans either adopt of reject according to their own wisdom or stupidity, whatever the case may be.

I agree that what the character Jesus did and taught is the avenue to salvation. People should follow the teachings of the man and adopt the principles of living a life in truth, not idolize the man as God and believe that somehow the crucifixion of a person saves them from something.
TRUTH cannot be crucified but it can be rejected and ignored and perceived as a lie.
Truth_seeker
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6/17/2014 11:23:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

Jesus is the truth on who God is.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/18/2014 12:18:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 11:23:39 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

Jesus is the truth on who God is.

You better explain what you mean.
Your statement is meaningless to anyone who does not believe Jesus was a real person in the first place.
Is a mythical character the truth about who God is?
Who or what exactly is God?

Is your God omnipresent? Is he in all unbelievers as well as in all believers? Is he in heaven as well as in hell? Is he in all that is perceived as good as well as in all that is perceived as bad?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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6/18/2014 3:32:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true.

At 6/17/2014 2:54:52 AM, Composer wrote:
Provide several examples for scrutiny?

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Most Christians believe all the statements in the bible are true. Pick any statement you want out of the bible.
How many can be verified as being true? If they cannot be verified as being true, why do Christians believe the bible is true ?
How many can be verified as being a lie? If they cannot be verified as being a lie, why do many people consider them to be lies?
Because they invoke the ' blind faith ' clause = excuse!

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Start with the following example.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Can that be verified as being true?
Based upon the ' faith ' clause these dupes would answer yes!

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Where is the evidence that Adam and Eve died on the same day they ate of the fruit of the tree?
This Story book tale gets complex, because for starters Story book Eve was never commanded by Story book god not to partake of the Forbidden fruit as was only Adam!

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16-17) ESV Story book

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Did God tell the truth?
Story book god was & remains a liar and did not tell the Truth.

The Serpent of the Genesis narrative told the Truth!

IF Story book readers believe otherwise, then clearly they haven't correctly read nor been told nor Read the Story book truth!
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/18/2014 8:17:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/17/2014 9:37:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/17/2014 6:37:30 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

What's so confusing in John 14? It's pretty clear and the last part of the passage solidifies the meaning. "No man comes to the Father, but by me". It ties in to 1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The verse simply demonstrates that Jesus, what He did and what He taught is the avenue
to salvation, life with God. He is the "bridge" or connection between the Father and man.

What is confusing to Atheists is the whole concept that God is a character in the sky and Jesus is somehow the son of that invisible character yet Jesus is also God. If Jesus IS the God the Father, referring to an invisible character in the sky, how can anyone come to the Father, the invisible character through the Father who is also his own son?
Are you your own son? Are you your own Father? Do you see how that concept is illogical to the people who perceive the bible God in the same way as any other mythical gods?
God is apparently a saviour who saves people from what exactly? What are Christians saved from that non christians are not saved from?
If God wants all men to be saved, why doesn't he save them all? Is He incapable of doing so?
Why give them an ultimatum that they must believe he exists and believe he will save them from something before he actually saves them from it?
If you were drowning in an ocean and needed to be saved from drowning, and another person was capable of saving you, would it be kind or loving of them to not save you unless you believed they existed and were capable of saving you? What if you were floating face down in the water and were not even conscious that they existed or were even watching you? Should they leave you to die in the ocean because you did not yell out to them to save you? How stupid and unkind would they be for leaving you there?

How can Jesus be a mediator between man and God if Jesus is God? How is anyone supposed to believe in a mediator which they cannot see and how exactly does an invisible mediator bring them any closer to believing an invisible God who is supposed to save them from something? They don't even think they need to be saved from anything except the religious delusions in the world. They think it is the believers who need saving from their delusions and from their imaginary God.

If God is not a man but is indeed the TRUTH personified and the TRUTH will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Then the TRUTH must reveal itself to humans as being the TRUTH.
How should it do that? By claiming "I am the TRUTH" ???
How many would believe you if God ( the Spirit of Truth) spoke through you and said "I am the TRUTH"
Very few would even understand what you were talking about let alone understand what you were saying or understand you were not referring to your own physical body.

What does TRUTH set people free from ? Does it set them free from deceptions or not? IF it does, can it set them free from the deception if the deceived do not believe the TRUTH in the first place?
If people do not believe Truth what else can set them free from deceptions? Is there anything at all?

Facing the TRUTH is not always an easy thing to do,especially for those who think Jesus, was a historical man and only that man alone is God. They are IDOLIZING an individual instead of understanding the SPIRIT of TRUTH is in ALL REALITY and is not just some individual father figure in the heavens.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The above is a principle which is personified through a story character. The character is fictional but the principle or concept is real. The principle is about living a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH. No man can arrive at any truthful conclusion if you believe fairy tales or myths. You must follow truthful and realistic concepts to arrive at truthful and realistic conclusions.
The "father" or the source of TRUTH is TRUTH. Truth can reproduce only truth. In that sense the source ( father) and the product ( son) are exactly the same thing. Truth is always manifested through all of reality not just through one historical person. Those who live in truth live in God and God lives in them even if they do not believe in any mythical invisible characters in the sky.

The only people who need saving are those who live a life of deception and worship an idol and claim only their idol is God and no one elses idol is God.

The TRUTH does not need to be idolized or worshiped with any kind of religious rituals.
A WAY of LIFE does not need to be worshiped like a father figure in the sky who demands obedience.
These things are not supernatural beings. They are concepts which humans either adopt of reject according to their own wisdom or stupidity, whatever the case may be.

I agree that what the character Jesus did and taught is the avenue to salvation. People should follow the teachings of the man and adopt the principles of living a life in truth, not idolize the man as God and believe that somehow the crucifixion of a person saves them from something.
TRUTH cannot be crucified but it can be rejected and ignored and perceived as a lie.

Have it your way :)
Truth_seeker
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6/18/2014 12:58:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 12:18:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/17/2014 11:23:39 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

Jesus is the truth on who God is.

You better explain what you mean.
Your statement is meaningless to anyone who does not believe Jesus was a real person in the first place.
Is a mythical character the truth about who God is?
Who or what exactly is God?

Is your God omnipresent? Is he in all unbelievers as well as in all believers? Is he in heaven as well as in hell? Is he in all that is perceived as good as well as in all that is perceived as bad?

all I can say he iseverything that Godis
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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6/18/2014 1:48:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What is Truth?

Whatever it is, you won't find it in religion.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/18/2014 6:54:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:32:05 AM, Composer wrote:
At 6/17/2014 1:47:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
A statement could also appear to be true yet still be false but many will still believe it is true.

At 6/17/2014 2:54:52 AM, Composer wrote:
Provide several examples for scrutiny?

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Most Christians believe all the statements in the bible are true. Pick any statement you want out of the bible.
How many can be verified as being true? If they cannot be verified as being true, why do Christians believe the bible is true ?
How many can be verified as being a lie? If they cannot be verified as being a lie, why do many people consider them to be lies?
Because they invoke the ' blind faith ' clause = excuse!

There is no such thing as blind faith. Most people who have faith of any kind in anything have a reason to place faith in what they do even if the reason is simply because they trust the word of those who teach them that it is true.
Scientists have faith in their scientific methods and theories which also cannot always be verified as being 100% correct. Is their faith also blind?
When you really think about it, all of us are blind to the things we don't understand. All people seem to think that their own logic is perfectly sane and reasonable even if others can't understand it or think it is unreasonable and illogical.

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Start with the following example.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Can that be verified as being true?
Based upon the ' faith ' clause these dupes would answer yes!

It all depends on perception.
If one believes the day is referring to a 24 hour day, God lied since they did not die within 24 hours. Adam lived to be 930 years old and then died according to Gen 5:5
If one believes the day was equal to 1000 literal years then God told the truth since Adam died before he was 1000 years old.
According to the bible stories no human lived to be older than 969 years old except Elijah and Enoch who apparently never died at all in the stories.

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Where is the evidence that Adam and Eve died on the same day they ate of the fruit of the tree?
This Story book tale gets complex, because for starters Story book Eve was never commanded by Story book god not to partake of the Forbidden fruit as was only Adam!

Adam and Eve were ONE according to God who called them ADAM. (meaning Mankind)
Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
If that day took 1000 years then God took a very long time to create mankind. God is still creating new people daily so he obviously has not finished creating them yet. He seems to create them through the natural reproductive cycle of humans who are metaphorically the dust of the earth.
1000 years in a metaphorical sense is an eternity. Humans die within that eternity but they also continue to live due to their own reproduction before they die.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16-17) ESV Story book

God commanded Adam who represents not just one man but all of mankind including all the females on the planet.
The tree of knowledge represents all the knowledge which exists. It is impossible for any individual to gain all the knowledge in the universe before they die. Humanity as a whole is however always gaining more knowledge. The old passes away ( dies) and is replaced by the new. It is all part of the process of growth. Death is not a punishment for gaining knowledge. It is the result of gaining knowledge and wisdom. It is simply part of life and growth. The immature and ignorant passes away ( dies) and is replaced by the more mature and wise. However the mature also reproduces the immature.

At 6/17/2014 4:29:53 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Did God tell the truth?
Story book god was & remains a liar and did not tell the Truth.

As I explained previously it all depends on how one perceives and interprets a day. If you perceive it as 24 hours God lied. If you perceive it as 1000 years or as eternity, he did not lie but told the truth.

The Serpent of the Genesis narrative told the Truth!

The serpent also told the truth because they became wise and gained the knowledge of God. Those who gain the knowledge of "God" understand that death is also part of "God's" own experience in the process of living forever. "God"( Life) reproduces itself . The Father ( mature version of Life) begets a son in his own image and likeness whatever that might be since all life forms reproduce after their own kind.. That "son", the immature life form grows to become mature and the cycle repeats itself as sons are always taking the place of the fathers who passing away. The sons become the fathers. It is simply the principle of the new replacing the old continually.
"God"( Life) dies daily as an individual unit yet also lives for eternity as a whole corporate body.

IF Story book readers believe otherwise, then clearly they haven't correctly read nor been told nor Read the Story book truth!

Story book readers all need to learn to read between the lines and take all metaphors into consideration in the big picture, especially in a book which is filled with symbolism and is not a history or a science book. The lessons and morals taught in the stories can be applied to all of life in reality even if just in an abstract sense. Life is filled with paradoxes and contradictions. The bible stories do a great job of recording the negative as well as the positive side of LIFE (God)

It makes sense and is perfectly logical to those who understand the paradox. It is obviously total gibberish and illogical to those who do not.
Skyangel
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6/18/2014 6:59:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 8:17:52 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 9:37:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/17/2014 6:37:30 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

What's so confusing in John 14? It's pretty clear and the last part of the passage solidifies the meaning. "No man comes to the Father, but by me". It ties in to 1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The verse simply demonstrates that Jesus, what He did and what He taught is the avenue
to salvation, life with God. He is the "bridge" or connection between the Father and man.

What is confusing to Atheists is the whole concept that God is a character in the sky and Jesus is somehow the son of that invisible character yet Jesus is also God. If Jesus IS the God the Father, referring to an invisible character in the sky, how can anyone come to the Father, the invisible character through the Father who is also his own son?
Are you your own son? Are you your own Father? Do you see how that concept is illogical to the people who perceive the bible God in the same way as any other mythical gods?
God is apparently a saviour who saves people from what exactly? What are Christians saved from that non christians are not saved from?
If God wants all men to be saved, why doesn't he save them all? Is He incapable of doing so?
Why give them an ultimatum that they must believe he exists and believe he will save them from something before he actually saves them from it?
If you were drowning in an ocean and needed to be saved from drowning, and another person was capable of saving you, would it be kind or loving of them to not save you unless you believed they existed and were capable of saving you? What if you were floating face down in the water and were not even conscious that they existed or were even watching you? Should they leave you to die in the ocean because you did not yell out to them to save you? How stupid and unkind would they be for leaving you there?

How can Jesus be a mediator between man and God if Jesus is God? How is anyone supposed to believe in a mediator which they cannot see and how exactly does an invisible mediator bring them any closer to believing an invisible God who is supposed to save them from something? They don't even think they need to be saved from anything except the religious delusions in the world. They think it is the believers who need saving from their delusions and from their imaginary God.

If God is not a man but is indeed the TRUTH personified and the TRUTH will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Then the TRUTH must reveal itself to humans as being the TRUTH.
How should it do that? By claiming "I am the TRUTH" ???
How many would believe you if God ( the Spirit of Truth) spoke through you and said "I am the TRUTH"
Very few would even understand what you were talking about let alone understand what you were saying or understand you were not referring to your own physical body.

What does TRUTH set people free from ? Does it set them free from deceptions or not? IF it does, can it set them free from the deception if the deceived do not believe the TRUTH in the first place?
If people do not believe Truth what else can set them free from deceptions? Is there anything at all?

Facing the TRUTH is not always an easy thing to do,especially for those who think Jesus, was a historical man and only that man alone is God. They are IDOLIZING an individual instead of understanding the SPIRIT of TRUTH is in ALL REALITY and is not just some individual father figure in the heavens.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The above is a principle which is personified through a story character. The character is fictional but the principle or concept is real. The principle is about living a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH. No man can arrive at any truthful conclusion if you believe fairy tales or myths. You must follow truthful and realistic concepts to arrive at truthful and realistic conclusions.
The "father" or the source of TRUTH is TRUTH. Truth can reproduce only truth. In that sense the source ( father) and the product ( son) are exactly the same thing. Truth is always manifested through all of reality not just through one historical person. Those who live in truth live in God and God lives in them even if they do not believe in any mythical invisible characters in the sky.

The only people who need saving are those who live a life of deception and worship an idol and claim only their idol is God and no one elses idol is God.

The TRUTH does not need to be idolized or worshiped with any kind of religious rituals.
A WAY of LIFE does not need to be worshiped like a father figure in the sky who demands obedience.
These things are not supernatural beings. They are concepts which humans either adopt of reject according to their own wisdom or stupidity, whatever the case may be.

I agree that what the character Jesus did and taught is the avenue to salvation. People should follow the teachings of the man and adopt the principles of living a life in truth, not idolize the man as God and believe that somehow the crucifixion of a person saves them from something.
TRUTH cannot be crucified but it can be rejected and ignored and perceived as a lie.

Have it your way :)

It is what it is regardless of who accepts it and who does not.
Truth remains truth even when it is perceived as a lie and rejected by those who cannot see is as truth.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/18/2014 7:06:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 12:58:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 6/18/2014 12:18:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/17/2014 11:23:39 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

Jesus is the truth on who God is.

You better explain what you mean.
Your statement is meaningless to anyone who does not believe Jesus was a real person in the first place.
Is a mythical character the truth about who God is?
Who or what exactly is God?

Is your God omnipresent? Is he in all unbelievers as well as in all believers? Is he in heaven as well as in hell? Is he in all that is perceived as good as well as in all that is perceived as bad?

all I can say he iseverything that Godis

That basically does not enlighten any readers as to what you perceive God to be.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/18/2014 7:14:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 1:48:06 PM, bulproof wrote:
What is Truth?

Whatever it is, you won't find it in religion.

How do you know for sure? Have you looked for it there?

Treasure can often be hidden in places where you least expect to find it.
Some look for gold in places where it is known to be found and still do not find any. The fact that you personally do not find any does not mean it is not in the area where you were looking. You may easily have overlooked it or not recognized it as being what it was.
Truth can appear to be a lie and vice versa.
That principle can be observed in the bible stories and in life itself.
Any treasure is where you find it.
Some can see value in that which is cast aside as garbage by those who do not value it.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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6/19/2014 10:34:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 6:59:35 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:17:52 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/17/2014 9:37:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/17/2014 6:37:30 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/15/2014 9:07:18 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Adults bring their children up to tell the truth.
What exactly is the truth to you?


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 18:37-38 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Is the character Jesus in the bible story, simply a personified version of the truth?

If you think he was a real historical person, what do you think he meant by claiming to BE the TRUTH?

What's so confusing in John 14? It's pretty clear and the last part of the passage solidifies the meaning. "No man comes to the Father, but by me". It ties in to 1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The verse simply demonstrates that Jesus, what He did and what He taught is the avenue
to salvation, life with God. He is the "bridge" or connection between the Father and man.

What is confusing to Atheists is the whole concept that God is a character in the sky and Jesus is somehow the son of that invisible character yet Jesus is also God. If Jesus IS the God the Father, referring to an invisible character in the sky, how can anyone come to the Father, the invisible character through the Father who is also his own son?
Are you your own son? Are you your own Father? Do you see how that concept is illogical to the people who perceive the bible God in the same way as any other mythical gods?
God is apparently a saviour who saves people from what exactly? What are Christians saved from that non christians are not saved from?
If God wants all men to be saved, why doesn't he save them all? Is He incapable of doing so?
Why give them an ultimatum that they must believe he exists and believe he will save them from something before he actually saves them from it?
If you were drowning in an ocean and needed to be saved from drowning, and another person was capable of saving you, would it be kind or loving of them to not save you unless you believed they existed and were capable of saving you? What if you were floating face down in the water and were not even conscious that they existed or were even watching you? Should they leave you to die in the ocean because you did not yell out to them to save you? How stupid and unkind would they be for leaving you there?

How can Jesus be a mediator between man and God if Jesus is God? How is anyone supposed to believe in a mediator which they cannot see and how exactly does an invisible mediator bring them any closer to believing an invisible God who is supposed to save them from something? They don't even think they need to be saved from anything except the religious delusions in the world. They think it is the believers who need saving from their delusions and from their imaginary God.

If God is not a man but is indeed the TRUTH personified and the TRUTH will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Then the TRUTH must reveal itself to humans as being the TRUTH.
How should it do that? By claiming "I am the TRUTH" ???
How many would believe you if God ( the Spirit of Truth) spoke through you and said "I am the TRUTH"
Very few would even understand what you were talking about let alone understand what you were saying or understand you were not referring to your own physical body.

What does TRUTH set people free from ? Does it set them free from deceptions or not? IF it does, can it set them free from the deception if the deceived do not believe the TRUTH in the first place?
If people do not believe Truth what else can set them free from deceptions? Is there anything at all?

Facing the TRUTH is not always an easy thing to do,especially for those who think Jesus, was a historical man and only that man alone is God. They are IDOLIZING an individual instead of understanding the SPIRIT of TRUTH is in ALL REALITY and is not just some individual father figure in the heavens.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The above is a principle which is personified through a story character. The character is fictional but the principle or concept is real. The principle is about living a WAY of LIFE in TRUTH. No man can arrive at any truthful conclusion if you believe fairy tales or myths. You must follow truthful and realistic concepts to arrive at truthful and realistic conclusions.
The "father" or the source of TRUTH is TRUTH. Truth can reproduce only truth. In that sense the source ( father) and the product ( son) are exactly the same thing. Truth is always manifested through all of reality not just through one historical person. Those who live in truth live in God and God lives in them even if they do not believe in any mythical invisible characters in the sky.

The only people who need saving are those who live a life of deception and worship an idol and claim only their idol is God and no one elses idol is God.

The TRUTH does not need to be idolized or worshiped with any kind of religious rituals.
A WAY of LIFE does not need to be worshiped like a father figure in the sky who demands obedience.
These things are not supernatural beings. They are concepts which humans either adopt of reject according to their own wisdom or stupidity, whatever the case may be.

I agree that what the character Jesus did and taught is the avenue to salvation. People should follow the teachings of the man and adopt the principles of living a life in truth, not idolize the man as God and believe that somehow the crucifixion of a person saves them from something.
TRUTH cannot be crucified but it can be rejected and ignored and perceived as a lie.

Have it your way :)

It is what it is regardless of who accepts it and who does not.
Truth remains truth even when it is perceived as a lie and rejected by those who cannot see is as truth.

Why are you constantly quoting scriptures and "attempting" to teach Christians about THEIR OWN religion? You.....are not a Christian......We are...not you, none of us care about your bizarre interpretations, have you noticed? That's because WE KNOW what we believe.
You're confused and insecure about your beliefs, and therefore you focus on disrupting the beliefs of others, partly because your own beliefs are worthless, they have no real value or weight so you feast off of Christianity and spend your time "correcting" believers.
Get your own beliefs and promote them, stop acting like you have some authority, it's lame.
Skyangel
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6/19/2014 5:44:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/19/2014 10:34:08 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 6:59:35 PM, Skyangel wrote:

It is what it is regardless of who accepts it and who does not.
Truth remains truth even when it is perceived as a lie and rejected by those who cannot see is as truth.

Why are you constantly quoting scriptures and "attempting" to teach Christians about THEIR OWN religion? You.....are not a Christian......We are...not you, none of us care about your bizarre interpretations, have you noticed? That's because WE KNOW what we believe.
You're confused and insecure about your beliefs, and therefore you focus on disrupting the beliefs of others, partly because your own beliefs are worthless, they have no real value or weight so you feast off of Christianity and spend your time "correcting" believers

I am merely attempting to show believers a different way to perceive God.
I am attempting to help the immature in the Lord grow in the Lord. It is much the same as attempting to help a child grow up and see the truth about Santa not existing at the North Pole but being a CONCEPT which is adopted by humans and manifest through humans.
There is nothing bizarre about a realistic interpretation of a concept. The idea of talking to an invisible supernatural friend in the sky and waiting for him to appear in literal clouds is bizarre and childish.
The way I perceive God is far more realistic than imagining God as a supernatural character in the sky. God is Love and Truth and Life itself. None of those things are a supernatural father figure in the sky. None of those things desire to be worshiped or have religious rituals performed in their name. They are attitudes or spirits which can be adopted or rejected by all humans.

I understand the immature way of thinking because I have been there. I am not confused or insecure I am perfectly secure in the knowledge of God. I know without a shadow of doubt that God is a real concept which is manifest in the flesh on Earth through ALL life forms at all times.
It is simply time for believers to put aside childish concepts and grow in the grace and knowledge of God and understand they are a manifestation of God in the flesh in Earth the same as they are a manifestation of Santa in the flesh on Earth.
What they are currently manifesting is a very childish concept of God.