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Universe infinite or finite?

POPOO5560
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6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?
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HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
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6/18/2014 3:35:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?

Instead of whether philosophy says the universe is finite or infinite, why not see what science says since we are able to scientifically analyze the universe? Philosophy is under no burden to accurately reflect natural phenomena, which the universe is. And when you say infinite/finite, are you speaking about size, age, or what?
Rastarigate
Posts: 8
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6/18/2014 3:36:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?

Our known universe is most likely finite.

We don't know if there are other universes and if they are infinite or not.

We can't assert that something infinite must have caused our universe, because we don't know.

Since we don't know everything about the bing bang singularity, we can't say if it was an infinite cause, a finite cause, many causes, etc.

Our universe could be a small "bubble" universe cause by another larger bubble, both finite in a sea of "bubble" universes.

Since we do not know, we cannot exactly say, honestly.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/18/2014 3:43:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 4:04:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:36:19 PM, Rastarigate wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?

Our known universe is most likely finite.

We don't know if there are other universes and if they are infinite or not.

We can't assert that something infinite must have caused our universe, because we don't know.

Since we don't know everything about the bing bang singularity, we can't say if it was an infinite cause, a finite cause, many causes, etc.

Our universe could be a small "bubble" universe cause by another larger bubble, both finite in a sea of "bubble" universes.

Since we do not know, we cannot exactly say, honestly.

If our universe came from other bubble of universes that came from other bubbles, at the end there must be an end because someone must began it. the premise is there must be a first cause, if there no first cause, it will go to infinity and infinity doesnt exist in the real world everything has a beginning (ofcourse it exist in math and stuff its potential not actual...atleast from philosophical prospective). you are right saying that we cannot know for sure in 100%, but its apply to anything for that matter, taking the best explanation makes more sense no? im not saying its "God", there must be a first cause.
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POPOO5560
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6/18/2014 4:06:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:43:14 PM, Envisage wrote:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

hhhhh so Albert Einstein admitted maybe the universe is finite :D for the second part human stupidity will be exist at anytime :@
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Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/18/2014 4:17:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:35:18 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
Instead of whether philosophy says the universe is finite or infinite, why not see what :science says since we are able to scientifically analyze the universe? Philosophy is under :no burden to accurately reflect natural phenomena, which the universe is. And when you :say infinite/finite, are you speaking about size, age, or what?

Hi,

I think philosophy is also a part of science and both cant be distinguished from each other. Philosophy asks the right questions, science tries to find the right answers.
POPOO5560
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6/18/2014 4:25:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:17:38 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:35:18 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
Instead of whether philosophy says the universe is finite or infinite, why not see what :science says since we are able to scientifically analyze the universe? Philosophy is under :no burden to accurately reflect natural phenomena, which the universe is. And when you :say infinite/finite, are you speaking about size, age, or what?

Hi,

I think philosophy is also a part of science and both cant be distinguished from each other. Philosophy asks the right questions, science tries to find the right answers.

i forgot to reply lol so yeah sure truth comes from 2 things empiricism - science and rationalism like math philosophy rational thinking.... the problem with athisets is that they deny the rationalism in this issue...
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HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
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6/18/2014 4:26:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:17:38 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:35:18 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
Instead of whether philosophy says the universe is finite or infinite, why not see what :science says since we are able to scientifically analyze the universe? Philosophy is under :no burden to accurately reflect natural phenomena, which the universe is. And when you :say infinite/finite, are you speaking about size, age, or what?

Hi,

I think philosophy is also a part of science and both cant be distinguished from each other. Philosophy asks the right questions, science tries to find the right answers.

Here's an example of what I mean, and I think it perfectly aligns with what you are saying as well. Ancient Greeks wondered what the fundamental "stuff" of the universe is. Good question. Some, for instance, came to the conclusion that it was change or fire via philosophy. While these musings may have had some sort of higher point, science tells us that this is of course wrong. I feel that wondering whether the universe is philosophically infinite or finite will be as uninformative as philosophically wondering what the fundamental stuff of the universe is. When we have a method of investigating whether the universe actually is or isn't infinite with relative certainty, it seems rather pointless to come up with philosophical answers that may inevitably contradict the reality. Philosophy only has to be sound, while science has the burden of actually reflecting natural reality.
POPOO5560
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6/18/2014 4:30:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:26:44 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 4:17:38 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:35:18 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
Instead of whether philosophy says the universe is finite or infinite, why not see what :science says since we are able to scientifically analyze the universe? Philosophy is under :no burden to accurately reflect natural phenomena, which the universe is. And when you :say infinite/finite, are you speaking about size, age, or what?

Hi,

I think philosophy is also a part of science and both cant be distinguished from each other. Philosophy asks the right questions, science tries to find the right answers.

Here's an example of what I mean, and I think it perfectly aligns with what you are saying as well. Ancient Greeks wondered what the fundamental "stuff" of the universe is. Good question. Some, for instance, came to the conclusion that it was change or fire via philosophy. While these musings may have had some sort of higher point, science tells us that this is of course wrong. I feel that wondering whether the universe is philosophically infinite or finite will be as uninformative as philosophically wondering what the fundamental stuff of the universe is. When we have a method of investigating whether the universe actually is or isn't infinite with relative certainty, it seems rather pointless to come up with philosophical answers that may inevitably contradict the reality. Philosophy only has to be sound, while science has the burden of actually reflecting natural reality.

You cant prove if the universe is infinite or not in science, its about experience and experiments, how you can prove it with science? it not making sense. rationalism is a different way to find truths.
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 4:34:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:26:44 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 4:17:38 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:35:18 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
Instead of whether philosophy says the universe is finite or infinite, why not see what :science says since we are able to scientifically analyze the universe? Philosophy is under :no burden to accurately reflect natural phenomena, which the universe is. And when you :say infinite/finite, are you speaking about size, age, or what?

Hi,

I think philosophy is also a part of science and both cant be distinguished from each other. Philosophy asks the right questions, science tries to find the right answers.

Here's an example of what I mean, and I think it perfectly aligns with what you are saying as well. Ancient Greeks wondered what the fundamental "stuff" of the universe is. Good question. Some, for instance, came to the conclusion that it was change or fire via philosophy. While these musings may have had some sort of higher point, science tells us that this is of course wrong. I feel that wondering whether the universe is philosophically infinite or finite will be as uninformative as philosophically wondering what the fundamental stuff of the universe is. When we have a method of investigating whether the universe actually is or isn't infinite with relative certainty, it seems rather pointless to come up with philosophical answers that may inevitably contradict the reality. Philosophy only has to be sound, while science has the burden of actually reflecting natural reality.

"while science has the burden of actually reflecting natural reality."

Are you joking? in science you cant prove in 100%, its inductive, whille rationalism is a deductive, it necessarily true.
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 4:40:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:06:57 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:43:14 PM, Envisage wrote:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

hhhhh so Albert Einstein admitted maybe the universe is finite :D for the second part human stupidity will be exist at anytime :@

"infinite, the universe" didnt that coming D:D:
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 4:41:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:40:45 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 4:06:57 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:43:14 PM, Envisage wrote:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

hhhhh so Albert Einstein admitted maybe the universe is finite :D for the second part human stupidity will be exist at anytime :@

"infinite, the universe" didnt see** that coming D:D:
Never fart near dog
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/18/2014 4:46:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:40:45 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"infinite, the universe" didnt that coming D:D:

You know according to science, the universe has a beginning (big bang) and has an end (big crunch).
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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6/18/2014 4:55:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?

Universe is not infinite, and it cannot be (at least this universe).
However, theoretically space can be infinite, but there is no evidence that the space we live in is infinite, and there are some good reasons for space being finite.
And time also finite.
This is red.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 5:01:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:46:14 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/18/2014 4:40:45 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"infinite, the universe" didnt that coming D:D:

You know according to science, the universe has a beginning (big bang) and has an end (big crunch).

Sure that the Quran says depicting the big bang the the crunch one at least in short details 21:30
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?
the crunchi dont remember where it is :D need to search
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 5:03:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:55:43 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?

Universe is not infinite, and it cannot be (at least this universe).
However, theoretically space can be infinite, but there is no evidence that the space we live in is infinite, and there are some good reasons for space being finite.
And time also finite.

Yep bro.... but in theoretically we can say anything... not violating infinite to the universe but choosing the best explanation is better... at the end say finite its also theoretically but some good reasons as you said...
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HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
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6/18/2014 6:37:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:34:51 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"while science has the burden of actually reflecting natural reality."

Are you joking? in science you cant prove in 100%, its inductive, whille rationalism is a deductive, it necessarily true.

Where did I say otherwise? The point is that the science has to reflect reality, otherwise it gets tossed out. It is about explaining natural phenomena through natural processes. Philosophy only has to be sound, else it is tossed out. IOW, it has to be internally coherent. Being sound does not equate to reflecting reality. I can make any number of philosophical points that do not reflect reality as my example demonstrated. Here's another example using logic:

If I like all SUVs, I like For Explorers.
I like all SUVs.
Therefore I like Ford Explorers.

This is perfectly sound; the problem is it isn't true. I hate SUVs.
HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
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6/18/2014 6:46:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:30:59 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

You cant prove if the universe is infinite or not in science, its about experience and experiments, how you can prove it with science? it not making sense. rationalism is a different way to find truths.

None said anything about science proving anything. And rationalism, like all philosophy, has even less ability to prove any truth about nature beyond purely deductive or trivial truths (and even then who knows with quantum mechanics). The best philosophy is that which is sound. You can only determine if a sound philosophy reflects reality by analyzing said reality with our senses, which is science.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/18/2014 7:45:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 6:37:47 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 4:34:51 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
"while science has the burden of actually reflecting natural reality."

Are you joking? in science you cant prove in 100%, its inductive, whille rationalism is a deductive, it necessarily true.

Where did I say otherwise? The point is that the science has to reflect reality, otherwise it gets tossed out. It is about explaining natural phenomena through natural processes. Philosophy only has to be sound, else it is tossed out. IOW, it has to be internally coherent. Being sound does not equate to reflecting reality. I can make any number of philosophical points that do not reflect reality as my example demonstrated. Here's another example using logic:

If I like all SUVs, I like For Explorers.
I like all SUVs.
Therefore I like Ford Explorers.

This is perfectly sound; the problem is it isn't true. I hate SUVs.

you right but it just not some absurd logic, we using here rationality way... we must to take rationality and science together.
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HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
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6/18/2014 8:00:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 7:45:48 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
you right but it just not some absurd logic, we using here rationality way... we must to take rationality and science together.

And you would do this how? As far as I can tell, any claim you can derive from rationalism would have to be confirmed by science to tell whether it reflects reality. Given this, why not skip the middle man and go straight to science?
POPOO5560
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6/19/2014 6:46:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 8:00:33 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 7:45:48 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
you right but it just not some absurd logic, we using here rationality way... we must to take rationality and science together.

And you would do this how? As far as I can tell, any claim you can derive from rationalism would have to be confirmed by science to tell whether it reflects reality. Given this, why not skip the middle man and go straight to science?

"why not skip the middle man and go straight to science?" what you mean? to neglect the raional thinking? yeah sure if you think science is the only way you are wrong. ok how do you know your great great great great great grandmother existed? come prove this with science.
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bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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6/19/2014 8:00:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God.

Nah don't agree.
Don't make claims on my behalf, it just makes you look stupid when you are corrected.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
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6/19/2014 8:17:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/19/2014 6:46:04 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 8:00:33 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 7:45:48 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
you right but it just not some absurd logic, we using here rationality way... we must to take rationality and science together.

And you would do this how? As far as I can tell, any claim you can derive from rationalism would have to be confirmed by science to tell whether it reflects reality. Given this, why not skip the middle man and go straight to science?

"why not skip the middle man and go straight to science?" what you mean? to neglect the raional thinking? yeah sure if you think science is the only way you are wrong. ok how do you know your great great great great great grandmother existed? come prove this with science.

reason has always been a part of science. just as reason alone cannot tell you anything about natural phenomena science without reason cannot explain what we observe so I'm unsure what your point actually is.
POPOO5560
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6/19/2014 8:52:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/19/2014 8:00:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God.

Nah don't agree.
Don't make claims on my behalf, it just makes you look stupid when you are corrected.

What wrong with my claim?
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bulproof
Posts: 25,255
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6/19/2014 9:16:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/19/2014 8:52:53 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/19/2014 8:00:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God.

Nah don't agree.
Don't make claims on my behalf, it just makes you look stupid when you are corrected.

What wrong with my claim?

Oh dear. :)
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/19/2014 9:51:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/19/2014 9:16:30 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/19/2014 8:52:53 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/19/2014 8:00:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God.

Nah don't agree.
Don't make claims on my behalf, it just makes you look stupid when you are corrected.

What wrong with my claim?

Oh dear. :)

Its not oh dear :)
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Rastarigate
Posts: 8
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6/19/2014 10:24:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/18/2014 4:04:12 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:36:19 PM, Rastarigate wrote:
At 6/18/2014 3:14:23 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Theists and athiets are agreeing on one thing, and thats is something is infinte - either its the Universe or God. now from philosophical prospective the universe is finite, so there must be a infinite cause who caused the existence of the universe... im not saying its "God", but examing the whole thing leads to the features of God, like its must be infinite. any thoughts?

Our known universe is most likely finite.

We don't know if there are other universes and if they are infinite or not.

We can't assert that something infinite must have caused our universe, because we don't know.

Since we don't know everything about the bing bang singularity, we can't say if it was an infinite cause, a finite cause, many causes, etc.

Our universe could be a small "bubble" universe cause by another larger bubble, both finite in a sea of "bubble" universes.

Since we do not know, we cannot exactly say, honestly.

If our universe came from other bubble of universes that came from other bubbles, at the end there must be an end because someone must began it. the premise is there must be a first cause, if there no first cause, it will go to infinity and infinity doesnt exist in the real world everything has a beginning (ofcourse it exist in math and stuff its potential not actual...atleast from philosophical prospective). you are right saying that we cannot know for sure in 100%, but its apply to anything for that matter, taking the best explanation makes more sense no? im not saying its "God", there must be a first cause.

We don't know if there must be an end or not. It could be an infinite chain of bubbles. we just don't know at this point.

"infinity doesnt exist in the real world " - You don't know that.

" there must be a first cause." - There may be a first cause, there may be thousands of first causes that contributed to our universe.

We don't know.