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Pharisees

jharry
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2/17/2010 5:22:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Did the pharisees know who/what Jesus was?

In your opinion? I hope this question goes out the active Theists here. I hope any atheist that want to contribute will, but I also hope they are constructive instead of destructive with their input.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
I-am-a-panda
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2/17/2010 5:25:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Pharisees were afraid of Jesus for two reasons. He opposed the traditional laws and he was a threat to their power.

Messiahs at the time would have been common, and dealing with them as they did with Jesus wouldn't have been uncommon. He opposed them morally, and gave them a bad name.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
jharry
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2/17/2010 6:04:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 5:25:56 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The Pharisees were afraid of Jesus for two reasons. He opposed the traditional laws and he was a threat to their power.

Messiahs at the time would have been common, and dealing with them as they did with Jesus wouldn't have been uncommon. He opposed them morally, and gave them a bad name.

Didn't the Pharisees admit they knew He was from God, a teacher? Because of the miracles and the teachings that He gave?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Floid
Posts: 751
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2/18/2010 3:47:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Pharisees in the Bible knew that Jesus was a person who claimed to be the Jewish Messiah prophesied by ancient Jewish texts, which was very common back then (mainly due to being occupied by the Roman Empire). They never addressed him as a god, in fact in Judaism a Messiah was just a great king or leader, not a god.

They address him as teacher, although this may be meant to be in a sarcastic way, especially considering some of Jesus' most "revolutionary" teachings are not original to him (such as the golden rule which is found about 100 years before Jesus' times in the writings of a pacifist Jewish priest named Hillel who appears to have heavily influenced Jesus).
BlessedCheesemaker
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2/18/2010 8:08:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
They wouldn't have conspired with the Romans to kill him if they thought he actually was the messiah.

They did let him have a pretty good run for three years before stopping him though. The Pharisees were looking for the Messiah to save them from the Romans, just as much as the rest of the Jews. So they may have hoped he was the Messiah, until he started breaking the covenant and coercing people to ignore their teaching of it.

You really can't blame them for deciding that he was not the true messiah. The turning point was when he went into the temple and started beating up the money changers there. This story sounds like Jesus looking out for the little guy, and most people read it with satisfaction that Jesus was fixing a wrong doing. However, imagine if an evangelist came into your church and started beating up the pastor and treasurer and several elders because they were misusing church funds? Would we consider that person a Godly man or someone who could speak for God? Obviously not.

Read Deut. 13:1-4 and ask yourself whether you would believe that Jesus was the true messiah, if he was preaching a new covenant?
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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2/18/2010 12:07:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In at least three of the Gosples Jesus askes Simone Peter who he thinks he is, and when Peter says the Son of the Living God, Jesus said he was blessed because no man revealed that to him but God did. and then he told him to tell no one.

So I think it for sure that was unique for the 12 diciples case and that the pharassies did not view Jesus as the Son of God.
They may have thought he was potientially the Messiah until it was apperant that he was not going to overthrow the Romans, so they rejected the notion.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
trustalgoreandriveahybrid
Posts: 44
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2/18/2010 12:11:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 8:08:20 AM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
because they were misusing church funds? Would we consider that person a Godly man or someone who could speak for God? Obviously not.

Heck yes. What do you think it's ungodly to punish others?
BlessedCheesemaker
Posts: 20
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2/18/2010 6:26:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 12:11:04 PM, trustalgoreandriveahybrid wrote:
At 2/18/2010 8:08:20 AM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
because they were misusing church funds? Would we consider that person a Godly man or someone who could speak for God? Obviously not.

Heck yes. What do you think it's ungodly to punish others?

Its pretty clear that God spends a disproportionate amount of time in the OT smiting poor unsuspecting humans, however the question wasn't whether knowing Jesus was the messiah would you consider him Godly after beating on people. It was, would you consider someone coming into your church putting the beat down, PHYSICALLY on your pastor and elders a Godly person?

If so, please let me know where your church is, I would love to doff some spandex and run in on Sunday morning dispensing some Jesus Justice to all those taking donations to pay for a mortgage and electric bills and donuts in the lobby instead of helping the poor.
;-)
trustalgoreandriveahybrid
Posts: 44
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2/18/2010 7:01:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 6:26:13 PM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
would you consider him Godly after beating on people. It was, would you consider someone coming into your church putting the beat down, PHYSICALLY on your pastor and elders a Godly person?

Lets rephrase this since you seem to enjoy obvious amounts of bias in your logic.

"would you consider him Godly after calling out what is sinful and putting a stop to it? Would you consider him Godly after stopping people from making business transactions in a place of worship?

Yes seems Godly to me.

If so, please let me know where your church is, I would love to doff some spandex and run in on Sunday morning dispensing some Jesus Justice to all those taking donations to pay for a mortgage and electric bills and donuts in the lobby instead of helping the poor.
;-)

sorry taking charity =/= selling and buying wares.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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2/19/2010 7:31:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 7:01:24 PM, trustalgoreandriveahybrid wrote:
At 2/18/2010 6:26:13 PM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:

If so, please let me know where your church is, I would love to doff some spandex and run in on Sunday morning dispensing some Jesus Justice to all those taking donations to pay for a mortgage and electric bills and donuts in the lobby instead of helping the poor.
;-)

sorry taking charity =/= selling and buying wares.

What was the purpose of the tables Jesus overturned? To make money for the Jewish temple, and insofar as that, religion, so the top guys could live comfortably.

What do collections in the church do? Fund the religion so the top guys can live comfortably.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
trustalgoreandriveahybrid
Posts: 44
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2/19/2010 7:41:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 7:31:17 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
so the top guys can live comfortably.

I am unaware that most pastors are poor and that the church may have heating bills, roof repairs, electricity etc. and am unaware that most donations go towards the homeless shelter/other food banks.

Yeah I'll say.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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2/19/2010 7:42:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 7:41:08 AM, trustalgoreandriveahybrid wrote:
At 2/19/2010 7:31:17 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
so the top guys can live comfortably.

I am unaware that most pastors are poor and that the church may have heating bills, roof repairs, electricity etc. and am unaware that most donations go towards the homeless shelter/other food banks.

I've never seen the house of the leaders of the religions

Oh I see
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
trustalgoreandriveahybrid
Posts: 44
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2/19/2010 7:44:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
up

Q: How much do pastors make?
A: On average, an ordained Protestant pastor serving a small congregation received a median salary and housing package of $31,234, according to a study by sociologist Jackson Carroll. But there is a wide disparity in compensation between Protestant pastors serving small congregations and those serving medium and large congregations. For example, a Protestant pastor serving a congregation of more than 1,000 members received a median salary and housing package of $81,923. Considering that the vast majority of churches in the United States are small, the overall compensation package for Protestant pastors is low when compared with teachers and social workers. Roman Catholic priests earned less than Protestant pastors, in part because they have no family to support. Depending on the size of the parish, the median salary for Catholic priests runs between $21,000 and $26,095.

Source: http://hirr.hartsem.edu...
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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2/19/2010 8:58:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:04:26 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 5:25:56 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The Pharisees were afraid of Jesus for two reasons. He opposed the traditional laws and he was a threat to their power.

Messiahs at the time would have been common, and dealing with them as they did with Jesus wouldn't have been uncommon. He opposed them morally, and gave them a bad name.

Didn't the Pharisees admit they knew He was from God, a teacher? Because of the miracles and the teachings that He gave?

Sometimes they accused Jesus of being from the Evil One when He cast out demons. Jesus replied that if He was from Satan then He would be working with the demons, not casting them out. I think this is when He gave the "those who aren't for me are against me" teaching.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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2/19/2010 10:26:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 7:44:23 AM, trustalgoreandriveahybrid wrote:
up

Q: How much do pastors make?
A: On average, an ordained Protestant pastor serving a small congregation received a median salary and housing package of $31,234, according to a study by sociologist Jackson Carroll. But there is a wide disparity in compensation between Protestant pastors serving small congregations and those serving medium and large congregations. For example, a Protestant pastor serving a congregation of more than 1,000 members received a median salary and housing package of $81,923. Considering that the vast majority of churches in the United States are small, the overall compensation package for Protestant pastors is low when compared with teachers and social workers. Roman Catholic priests earned less than Protestant pastors, in part because they have no family to support. Depending on the size of the parish, the median salary for Catholic priests runs between $21,000 and $26,095.

Source: http://hirr.hartsem.edu...

Any leader of any Judeo-Christian religion ought not to live beyond his basic means. Any excess of money after the upkeep of the church, etc. should be given back to its followers in order of need.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/22/2010 7:14:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 5:22:36 PM, jharry wrote:
Did the pharisees know who/what Jesus was?

In your opinion? I hope this question goes out the active Theists here. I hope any atheist that want to contribute will, but I also hope they are constructive instead of destructive with their input.

Some did, (Nicodemus, Joseph of Aramathea) most did not; Jesus exposed the Pharisees (meaning 'set apart') for the self righteous hypocrites they were.. And let's be clear about this; as far as sinful man and his own efforts go, they were the creme de la creme, no-one comes close to them.

It is only Christ working in us that can truly change us.. save us.

In order for that to begin we must give up all illusions that we can improve ourselves in any way.

Self improvement is the lie that imprisons all humanity.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
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2/23/2010 4:49:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"as far as sinful man and his own efforts go, they were the creme de la creme, no-one comes close to them."

Thats kind of rediculous. They did nothing on par with what a Hitler or Stalin did.
I haven't seen much that sets the apart from modern day a lot of modern day clergy and politicians. They had power and they used it for their benifit while also being hypocritical in their policies and ideas. Nothing new and nothing that isn't found anywhere in the world when people are given authority in that manner.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/23/2010 7:37:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 2:04:12 PM, collegekitchen wrote:
At 2/22/2010 7:14:27 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

DATC you are a modern day Pharisee.

What, the Creme de la Creme you mean?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/23/2010 7:41:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/23/2010 4:49:09 AM, Floid wrote:
"as far as sinful man and his own efforts go, they were the creme de la creme, no-one comes close to them."

Thats kind of rediculous. They did nothing on par with what a Hitler or Stalin did.
I haven't seen much that sets the apart from modern day a lot of modern day clergy and politicians. They had power and they used it for their benifit while also being hypocritical in their policies and ideas. Nothing new and nothing that isn't found anywhere in the world when people are given authority in that manner.

Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
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2/23/2010 1:13:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.

Were the Pharisees responsible for tens of millions of deaths?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/23/2010 2:32:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/23/2010 7:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
No he did not.
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
You mean, the law which advocates slavery and stoning children? I suppose he did. But what Stalin did is nothing worse than what is advocated by the laws of the bible.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/24/2010 3:57:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/23/2010 1:13:38 PM, Floid wrote:
Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.

Were the Pharisees responsible for tens of millions of deaths?

No, and neither was Hitler, I think 6 million is the figure most bandied.
However, we were talking from a viewpoint of 'self-righteousness' which you appear to have abandoned.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/24/2010 3:59:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/23/2010 2:32:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/23/2010 7:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
No he did not.
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
You mean, the law which advocates slavery and stoning children? I suppose he did. But what Stalin did is nothing worse than what is advocated by the laws of the bible.
Again, we were discussing 'self righteousness' but i understand you cannot control the urge to spit bile at Gods word.. people always attack that which they do not understand.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
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2/24/2010 4:34:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, and neither was Hitler, I think 6 million is the figure most bandied.

I know thinking things through is not your things, but Hitler was responsible for way more deaths than just those of the Holocaust. I seem to remember hearing about a war around that time too. Look it up and see if you can help me remember the name of it...

However, we were talking from a viewpoint of 'self-righteousness' which you appear to have abandoned.

Which just goes to show you how distorted your exterme views of religion has made your world view. Being "self-righteous" is now more sinful than slaughtering millions of people...
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/24/2010 7:18:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/24/2010 3:59:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 2/23/2010 2:32:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/23/2010 7:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
No he did not.
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
You mean, the law which advocates slavery and stoning children? I suppose he did. But what Stalin did is nothing worse than what is advocated by the laws of the bible.
Again, we were discussing 'self righteousness' but i understand you cannot control the urge to spit bile at Gods word.. people always attack that which they do not understand.

Can i say the same about you and evolution?
BlessedCheesemaker
Posts: 20
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2/24/2010 8:30:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The most harmful part of religion is that it causes people to do exactly what DOTC does. Diminish true evil and hatred and suffering an harm and place it beneath theoretical musings about a non existent God.

Even if God did exist, he would be incredibly immoral to promote the suffering over pride.

DOTC is exactly the type of man that Jesus fought against during his proposed ministry on earth. Men who claimed to understand the will of God and then used that 'knowledge' to judge and make claims and diminish others. A large portion of Jesus ministry was spent talking against men doing these things, even though they were written down as law. The Jesus message was to treat others with respect and understanding and kindness, especially the downtrodden and sinful. You can see it in the way he treated prostitutes convicted of sinful lust, fishermen breaking the Sabbath law, demon possessed people, unclean gentiles etc...
Yet people like DoTcmoto use his message to browbeat and condemn people.

I imagine Jesus rolls in his grave every time someone pretends to know him and uses this imagined grace to hurl condemnation at others.....but that's religion for you.

--Heh Spell Checker suggestion for DoTcmoto = detoxify. priceless
BlessedCheesemaker
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2/24/2010 9:10:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/23/2010 7:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:


Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.

Hitler did have Moses. He was brought up in the Catholic church by a very religious pious Mother. He mentions the bible many times in Mein Kampf. So he knew the original law, maybe not as intimately as the Pharisees but still had it. I can be argued that he had a greater knowledge than they because he believed that Jesus was the Messiah so understood the fulfilled law. Hitler idolized Martin Luther and especially his book "On the Jews and Their Lies", 1543
He even went as far as to form a new Christ centered Christianity called 'Positive Christianity' because he believed that most Christians in the world were heretics. He believed he had a better understanding of what Christ was all about and really wanted. (sound familiar)

Regarding Stalin and the Law, perhaps you are unaware that Stalin was actually a seminary student prior to adopting Marx' views on the world. It is very likely that Stalin actually had a much better understanding of the law than you yourself claim. Not only was he raised in a very religious family, but he attended Christian schools all his life and spent three years becoming a priest....did Stalin have the law...ABSOLUTELY. My guess is that the Law is probably what convinced him to reject it all, not unlike most atheists.

The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.

Sounds like every single 'holy spirit led' Christian, who claims to be 'sinless', while simultaneously looking down on others and posting judgements about them. On many occasions I have read statements from Pentecostals about being covered by the blood therefore sinless before God. Modern Pharisees like these act in EXACTLY the same fashion as Jesus rebuked, the only difference is that they warp the New Covenant to condone their actions rather than the original Covenant.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/1/2010 3:14:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/24/2010 9:10:31 AM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
At 2/23/2010 7:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:


Did Hitler have Moses? (who spoke 'face to face' with God)
Did Stalin have the Law? (which ALL laws and morality derive from)
The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.

Hitler did have Moses. He was brought up in the Catholic church by a very religious pious Mother. He mentions the bible many times in Mein Kampf. So he knew the original law, maybe not as intimately as the Pharisees but still had it. I can be argued that he had a greater knowledge than they because he believed that Jesus was the Messiah so understood the fulfilled law. Hitler idolized Martin Luther and especially his book "On the Jews and Their Lies", 1543
He even went as far as to form a new Christ centered Christianity called 'Positive Christianity' because he believed that most Christians in the world were heretics. He believed he had a better understanding of what Christ was all about and really wanted. (sound familiar)

Regarding Stalin and the Law, perhaps you are unaware that Stalin was actually a seminary student prior to adopting Marx' views on the world. It is very likely that Stalin actually had a much better understanding of the law than you yourself claim. Not only was he raised in a very religious family, but he attended Christian schools all his life and spent three years becoming a priest....did Stalin have the law...ABSOLUTELY. My guess is that the Law is probably what convinced him to reject it all, not unlike most atheists.

You have taken my comments completely out of the context of the argument and therefore have failed on every level: Hitler nor Marx did not have Moses at the center of their idealogy in the same way the Pharisees did.

The Pharisees were above reproach, EVERYONE (all gentiles) else, beneath contempt.

Sounds like every single 'holy spirit led' Christian, who claims to be 'sinless', while simultaneously looking down on others and posting judgements about them. On many occasions I have read statements from Pentecostals about being covered by the blood therefore sinless before God. Modern Pharisees like these act in EXACTLY the same fashion as Jesus rebuked, the only difference is that they warp the New Covenant to condone their actions rather than the original Covenant.

We don't look down on you at all, far from it; we want you to see the truth so that the truth can set you free: The Truth is Jesus Christ.
The Cross.. the Cross.