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Love, Lust, and Islam

Fatihah
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6/20/2014 10:49:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It seems to be apparent, after several discussions and debates with Non-Muslims, that when a Muslim explains why certain principles and prescribed ways are taught in Islam to establish loving relations and not lustful ones, what arises is a dispute on exactly what love and lust is. So it occurred to me that perhaps if it was explained what exactly is meant by love and lust in Islam, then this can clear up many misconceptions and bring a better understanding on things such as the purpose of hijab and the condemnation of certain relationships and social interactions in Islam. So I present the following:

Love-a feeling of appreciation from being cared for by someone or being the caregiver to someone. Thus a loving relationship is achieved by putting the needs and wants of others before you own, with the purposeful aim to make joy by making others happy at all times. The desire to give always supersedes the desire to receive. This is the greatest behavior in Islam and the best method of establishing peace.

Lust- The crave for attention and affection and self-interest. Thus a lustful relationship may involve the act of making others happy, but the desire to receive always supersedes the desire to give. This is the worst behavior in Islam, and the underline root of all evil and bad relations.

Hence, the principles of Islam are aimed to achieve love, as defined above, and discourage lust, as defined above. Those whose behavior does not reflect the definition of love as explained above, have primarily a lustful character and lustful relations.

So are you in love or in lust in your relations and have a better relationship then what Islam prescribes? Let's have a dialogue
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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6/20/2014 11:02:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 10:49:05 AM, Fatihah wrote:
Love-a feeling of appreciation from being cared for by someone or being the caregiver to someone. Thus a loving relationship is achieved by putting the needs and wants of others before you own, with the purposeful aim to make joy by making others happy at all times. The desire to give always supersedes the desire to receive. This is the greatest behavior in Islam and the best method of establishing peace.
And the way to achieve that is to marry someone you don't know or at best hardly know.
Woohoo.
skinker
Posts: 345
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6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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6/20/2014 1:06:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Response: That does not address the OP. The question is whether your relationship is lustful or of love, and whether it compares to the definition of love in the OP. It appears you don't have an answer because perhaps you do not know what love consist of.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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6/20/2014 1:08:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
After I talk to a lot of non-muslim women who always come to me complaining about men, I always have to show them that the problem is that they are not in love. It is lust. Many will end up agreeing with me, yet it seems western societies do not understand the distinction. So I am curious to know how non-muslims here meet their partner/boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse because from what I find, it is always lust, but you call it love.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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6/20/2014 1:12:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 10:49:05 AM, Fatihah wrote:
It seems to be apparent, after several discussions and debates with Non-Muslims, that when a Muslim explains why certain principles and prescribed ways are taught in Islam to establish loving relations and not lustful ones, what arises is a dispute on exactly what love and lust is. So it occurred to me that perhaps if it was explained what exactly is meant by love and lust in Islam, then this can clear up many misconceptions and bring a better understanding on things such as the purpose of hijab and the condemnation of certain relationships and social interactions in Islam. So I present the following:

Love-a feeling of appreciation from being cared for by someone or being the caregiver to someone. Thus a loving relationship is achieved by putting the needs and wants of others before you own, with the purposeful aim to make joy by making others happy at all times. The desire to give always supersedes the desire to receive. This is the greatest behavior in Islam and the best method of establishing peace.

Lust- The crave for attention and affection and self-interest. Thus a lustful relationship may involve the act of making others happy, but the desire to receive always supersedes the desire to give. This is the worst behavior in Islam, and the underline root of all evil and bad relations.

Hence, the principles of Islam are aimed to achieve love, as defined above, and discourage lust, as defined above. Those whose behavior does not reflect the definition of love as explained above, have primarily a lustful character and lustful relations.

So are you in love or in lust in your relations and have a better relationship then what Islam prescribes? Let's have a dialogue

Yeah love in Islam is when your husband marries many women at the same time. Beats you whenever he wants and also does marital rape. Islam does not prohibit any of these acts.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

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Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/20/2014 1:31:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 1:12:33 PM, debateuser wrote:
Yeah love in Islam is when your husband marries many women at the same time. Beats ;:you whenever he wants and also does marital rape. Islam does not prohibit any of these :acts.

Hi,

Frankly I have blocked you but I dont know why still I can see your posts. Islam does not encourage to marry more then one women, it just does not prohibit to marry more then one women, allows it for certain conditions, not for arbitrary situation. Islam does not say you can beat woman whenever you want, its not even clear it talks about "beating " action.

Please block me, I dont want to see your posts.

Peace ...
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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6/20/2014 1:49:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 1:31:05 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/20/2014 1:12:33 PM, debateuser wrote:
Yeah love in Islam is when your husband marries many women at the same time. Beats ;:you whenever he wants and also does marital rape. Islam does not prohibit any of these :acts.

Hi,

Frankly I have blocked you but I dont know why still I can see your posts. Islam does not encourage to marry more then one women, it just does not prohibit to marry more then one women, allows it for certain conditions, not for arbitrary situation. Islam does not say you can beat woman whenever you want, its not even clear it talks about "beating " action.

Please block me, I dont want to see your posts.

Peace ...

Tell that to the Muslim clerics who mostly have more than one wife and also tell that to the Saudi elite who marry four new wives each year. In Islam a husband does not have to ask permission from his wife for second marriage.
Beating of wife is allowed in islam. See the following verse of quran

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is most high.
Qur'an 4:34

http://quran.com...

What type of a God would allow that. Surely Quran is the word of men only.

In Muslim countries if someone speaks against Islam , he is killed legally. Seems like Muslim countries block criticism. That is why I say that religion should have no place in government affairs. Religion is brutal.
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Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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6/20/2014 1:59:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 1:12:33 PM, debateuser wrote:


Yeah love in Islam is when your husband marries many women at the same time. Beats you whenever he wants and also does marital rape. Islam does not prohibit any of these acts.

Response: To the contrary, marriage to more than one woman is an act of love and those who see marriage as something else as you do is another example of how non-muslims confuse lust and sex with love. As for hitting the wife, verse 34 does allow hitting the wife as a disciplinary act by the husband if she disobeys the protection provided by the husband (such as allowing his enemies in the home, using the money he provides to financially stabilize the family for her own personal gain, etc.,) yet as verse 19 demonstrates, women are to be treated with kindness. Thus the hit should not be abusive or painful. The sunnah of the prophet states that when asked of what force to beat a women, the prophet displays the bristles of a toothbrush, demonstrating how light the hit must be. The prophet also forbids hitting women in the face or leaving a mark. In short, the hitting is very light, thus it is not unjust, as it leaves no marks or causes pain. With that said, the usual objection by non-Muslims is that it's still wrong because no one likes to be hit. To that I say then, that you should help to free every prisoner from jail. Why? Because they don't like it. Anyone can see the absurdity. It's a punishment. It's not supposed to be liked. Once again, Islam is still established as a just religion.

Whereas your culture allows sex outside of marriage and responsibility, causing several relationships where there is no mother or father around , and abuse happens daily with no consequences. A culture that meets a person and has sex the first day and call it love. Clearly, Islam sets a better example.
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/20/2014 2:35:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 1:59:57 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: To the contrary, marriage to more than one woman is an act of love and :those who see marriage as something else as you do is another example of how non-:muslims confuse lust and sex with love. As for hitting the wife, verse 34 does allow :hitting the wife as a disciplinary act by the husband if she disobeys the protection :provided by the husband (such as allowing his enemies in the home, using the money :he provides to financially stabilize the family for her own personal gain, etc.,) yet as :verse 19 demonstrates, women are to be treated with kindness. Thus the hit should :not be abusive or painful. The sunnah of the prophet states that when asked of what :force to beat a women, the prophet displays the bristles of a toothbrush, :demonstrating how light the hit must be. The prophet also forbids hitting women in the :face or leaving a mark. In short, the hitting is very light, thus it is not unjust, as it leaves :no marks or causes pain. With that said, the usual objection by non-Muslims is that it's :still wrong because no one likes to be hit. To that I say then, that you should help to :free every prisoner from jail. Why? Because they don't like it. Anyone can see the :absurdity. It's a punishment. It's not supposed to be liked. Once again, Islam is still :established as a just religion.

Whereas your culture allows sex outside of marriage and responsibility, causing :several relationships where there is no mother or father around , and abuse happens :daily with no consequences. A culture that meets a person and has sex the first day :and call it love. Clearly, Islam sets a better example.

Hi,

I'm not agree with you, you know it complate wrong. Marriage with more than one woman is not something carried out in order to "love", its entirely logic marriage to save women. Maybe the man can fall in love in time but at first step its not with the aim of "love", also this is so devious.

In verse 34, you are doing wrong interpretation again, there is a word used in it, "nu#1;uze", the main meaning of this word is "to be unfaithful for husband and to be closer to the other men", so to beat a woman who have such a sense against her husband would be the last drop that overflows. This is completely contrary to the mean flow of the Surah. So I dont think verse mean "beating" action. We have to look at the other meanings of the world.

By the way, if my husband beats me up, probably my father would kill him : )
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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6/20/2014 3:17:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

In 2006, 85,000 women were raped (232.8 per day) in UK.
1 in 6 U.S. women and 1 in 33 U.S. men has experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.
In Canada, over one in three women had experienced a sexual assault and that only 6% of sexual assaults were reported to the police.

So, judging by this statistics, I conclude -
1. Western countries are f**ked up.
2. Any person who has brain and lives in one of these countries would hide his wife (or wives) away at home (or in house).
3. Male population of US was 151.4 million (2009), which means 4.59 million males were raped just in US. US is even dangerous for man. That is hilarious.
This is red.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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6/20/2014 3:29:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 2:35:01 PM, Mineva wrote:

Hi,

I'm not agree with you, you know it complate wrong. Marriage with more than one woman is not something carried out in order to "love", its entirely logic marriage to save women. Maybe the man can fall in love in time but at first step its not with the aim of "love", also this is so devious.

In verse 34, you are doing wrong interpretation again, there is a word used in it, "nu#1;uze", the main meaning of this word is "to be unfaithful for husband and to be closer to the other men", so to beat a woman who have such a sense against her husband would be the last drop that overflows. This is completely contrary to the mean flow of the Surah. So I dont think verse mean "beating" action. We have to look at the other meanings of the world.

By the way, if my husband beats me up, probably my father would kill him : )

Response: You seem to be playing with words. If you are saving a woman in marriage, as you say, then saving a woman is an act of love. So it is perfectly coherent to call a second wife a marriage of love.

As for verse 34, your interpretation is completely invalid. The word "idridbuhunna" derives from the word "daraba", which carries the meaning to beat or tap. We know this is the correct meaning because of the many authentic hadiths regarding the verse. So the verse is clear. However, as stated, the prophet prescribed the type of hitting it should be, which is to be light, cause nor pain or bruises, and not to be in the face. That is sunnah. So there is no wrong interpretation. There are authentic hadiths to support it.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/20/2014 4:09:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Well, clearly someone has never been around Muslims. Good Lord, maybe we could stop the prejudice? Some of the strongest marriages I have seen have been Islamic. Wives who love their husbands, and husbands who are unashamedly in love with their wife.

Of course, they won't bring you into their family life until they trust you, which, if you treat them like a bunch of monkey's isn't going to happen.

Your attitude, really, it does more damage to you than it does to Muslims. By a wide margin.
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/20/2014 4:18:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 3:29:20 PM, Fatihah wrote:: : At 6/20/2014 2:35:01 PM, Mineva wrote:
Response: You seem to be playing with words. If you are saving a woman in marriage, :as you say, then saving a woman is an act of love. So it is perfectly coherent to call a :second wife a marriage of love.

As for verse 34, your interpretation is completely invalid. The word "idridbuhunna" :derives from the word "daraba", which carries the meaning to beat or tap. We know :this is the correct meaning because of the many authentic hadiths regarding the :verse. So the verse is clear. However, as stated, the prophet prescribed the type of :hitting it should be, which is to be light, cause nor pain or bruises, and not to be in the :face. That is sunnah. So there is no wrong interpretation. There are authentic hadiths :to support it.

I'm not sure who is playing with words. You dont need to feel in love to save someone. Hopefully I misread, so its normal for you to feel in love with another woman while you are married with another person. Disgusting.

I dont even talk about stories about the prophet.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/20/2014 4:22:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is hilarious.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 4:09:14 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Well, clearly someone has never been around Muslims. Good Lord, maybe we could stop the prejudice? Some of the strongest marriages I have seen have been Islamic. Wives who love their husbands, and husbands who are unashamedly in love with their wife.

Of course, they won't bring you into their family life until they trust you, which, if you treat them like a bunch of monkey's isn't going to happen.

Your attitude, really, it does more damage to you than it does to Muslims. By a wide margin.

I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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6/20/2014 4:53:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 4:18:45 PM, Mineva wrote:

I'm not sure who is playing with words. You dont need to feel in love to save someone. Hopefully I misread, so its normal for you to feel in love with another woman while you are married with another person. Disgusting.


I dont even talk about stories about the prophet.

Response: No one stated who had to be in love to save someone. That does not change that marriage is still based on love, and having more than one wife in Islam is still based on love. For saving someone, as you consider it, is still an act of love. And yes, it is perfectly normal two love a woman while married to another. It's not difficult. One can love more than one person. How or why you may be incapable of this is very odd.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/20/2014 4:59:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 1:31:05 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 6/20/2014 1:12:33 PM, debateuser wrote:
Yeah love in Islam is when your husband marries many women at the same time. Beats ;:you whenever he wants and also does marital rape. Islam does not prohibit any of these :acts.

Hi,

Frankly I have blocked you but I dont know why still I can see your posts. Islam does not encourage to marry more then one women, it just does not prohibit to marry more then one women, allows it for certain conditions, not for arbitrary situation. Islam does not say you can beat woman whenever you want, its not even clear it talks about "beating " action.

Please block me, I dont want to see your posts.

Peace ...

Blocks stop messages, debate challenges, debate acceptance, friend requests. The forum posts are a public thread. So you continue to see his posts. You don't have to reply to them. And I don't think anyone take's his post seriously.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/20/2014 5:10:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:09:14 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Well, clearly someone has never been around Muslims. Good Lord, maybe we could stop the prejudice? Some of the strongest marriages I have seen have been Islamic. Wives who love their husbands, and husbands who are unashamedly in love with their wife.

Of course, they won't bring you into their family life until they trust you, which, if you treat them like a bunch of monkey's isn't going to happen.

Your attitude, really, it does more damage to you than it does to Muslims. By a wide margin.

I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

No actually it doesn't, and you continue to display prejudice while claiming you reject it.

The Koran ALLOWS polygamy, but under VERY tight restrictions. You MUST be able to treat the women EXACTLY equal in every manner. That is a STRONG prohibition against polygamy, but allows it for what its was intended: to seal tribal/political alliances. Its meant for people of exceptional means and ability - and its not a perk, its a RESPONSIBILITY.

Even more ignorant? In practice, throughout the Islamic world, the VAST majority of Muslim marriages are monogamous. Single spouse.

You would know this if you stopped telling Muslims how screwed up they were and actually listened to them. Actually read what they wrote. Actually took a hand extended in friendship rather than slap it away.

So, bluntly, I am telling you that your position on Islam is wrong, and it is prejudice. Bleet all you want that it is not, but you only harm yourself. You only deny yourself warm and honorable relationships with fellow human beings based on YOUR prejudiced opinion of their faith.
Fatihah
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6/20/2014 5:11:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:


I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

Response: The Qur'an does not command polygamy and in fact, it is the only religious book on earth of the major religions that says to marry only one. Wife-beating, is actually only a tap, and the prophet himself says that those who beat their wives are not the best of men. And men are not forcefully told to be superior over women, but human nature itself gives men superiority over women. Islam only states the obvious and prescribes rules to bring justice to men and women based on their difference in nature. For clearly, at no time in history, has there ever been men oppression by women. It was the other way around. So stating men have superiority is simply stating a fact, and the Qur'an also states that women have rights over men as well.
neutral
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6/20/2014 5:14:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:11:04 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:


I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

Response: The Qur'an does not command polygamy and in fact, it is the only religious book on earth of the major religions that says to marry only one. Wife-beating, is actually only a tap, and the prophet himself says that those who beat their wives are not the best of men. And men are not forcefully told to be superior over women, but human nature itself gives men superiority over women. Islam only states the obvious and prescribes rules to bring justice to men and women based on their difference in nature. For clearly, at no time in history, has there ever been men oppression by women. It was the other way around. So stating men have superiority is simply stating a fact, and the Qur'an also states that women have rights over men as well.

Well, there was Katherine the Great ... and Hillary seems to scare the living pants off of any Republican man within 500 miles of her ... just sayin;-)
Mineva
Posts: 336
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6/20/2014 5:22:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 4:53:40 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: No one stated who had to be in love to save someone. That does not change :that marriage is still based on love, and having more than one wife in Islam is still based :on love. For saving someone, as you consider it, is still an act of love. And yes, it is :perfectly normal two love a woman while married to another. It's not difficult. One can :love more than one person. How or why you may be incapable of this is very odd.

Your defense is men can marry more than one woman because they can feel in love with more than one woman. Then why women are not allowed to marry with more than one man ? Women can also feel in love more than one man according to your understanding.

Because Islam does not mean "love marriages" while it allows men to marry more than one. Islam just tries to save destitute women.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/20/2014 5:28:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:10:57 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:09:14 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Well, clearly someone has never been around Muslims. Good Lord, maybe we could stop the prejudice? Some of the strongest marriages I have seen have been Islamic. Wives who love their husbands, and husbands who are unashamedly in love with their wife.

Of course, they won't bring you into their family life until they trust you, which, if you treat them like a bunch of monkey's isn't going to happen.

Your attitude, really, it does more damage to you than it does to Muslims. By a wide margin.

I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

No actually it doesn't, and you continue to display prejudice while claiming you reject it.

The Koran ALLOWS polygamy, but under VERY tight restrictions. You MUST be able to treat the women EXACTLY equal in every manner. That is a STRONG prohibition against polygamy, but allows it for what its was intended: to seal tribal/political alliances. Its meant for people of exceptional means and ability - and its not a perk, its a RESPONSIBILITY.

Even more ignorant? In practice, throughout the Islamic world, the VAST majority of Muslim marriages are monogamous. Single spouse.

You would know this if you stopped telling Muslims how screwed up they were and actually listened to them. Actually read what they wrote. Actually took a hand extended in friendship rather than slap it away.

So, bluntly, I am telling you that your position on Islam is wrong, and it is prejudice. Bleet all you want that it is not, but you only harm yourself. You only deny yourself warm and honorable relationships with fellow human beings based on YOUR prejudiced opinion of their faith.

First of all, calm down. I'm not an atheist, don't worry :)

Second, I don't see where I've said or done anything offensive to Muslims as you claim. I'm just saying their stances on several things are jacked up. Plenty of people are offensive and dismissive, I'm not one of them.

Third, I never said the majority of Muslim marriages were polygamous. This is a reasonable page a quick search brings up that basically goes over various interpretations, which should shut up your ramblings about bias and prejudice, but pretty much matches my views on the matter.

http://answering-islam.org...

Fourth, I think you got too carried away to actually respond to what I said, except for my one-word mention of polygamy. I'll repost, since I'm actually interested to hear about these marriages:

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.
Hematite12
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6/20/2014 5:30:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:11:04 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:


I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

Response: The Qur'an does not command polygamy and in fact, it is the only religious book on earth of the major religions that says to marry only one. Wife-beating, is actually only a tap, and the prophet himself says that those who beat their wives are not the best of men. And men are not forcefully told to be superior over women, but human nature itself gives men superiority over women. Islam only states the obvious and prescribes rules to bring justice to men and women based on their difference in nature. For clearly, at no time in history, has there ever been men oppression by women. It was the other way around. So stating men have superiority is simply stating a fact, and the Qur'an also states that women have rights over men as well.

What's your definition of superiority?
neutral
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6/20/2014 5:38:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:28:17 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/20/2014 5:10:57 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:09:14 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Well, clearly someone has never been around Muslims. Good Lord, maybe we could stop the prejudice? Some of the strongest marriages I have seen have been Islamic. Wives who love their husbands, and husbands who are unashamedly in love with their wife.

Of course, they won't bring you into their family life until they trust you, which, if you treat them like a bunch of monkey's isn't going to happen.

Your attitude, really, it does more damage to you than it does to Muslims. By a wide margin.

I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

No actually it doesn't, and you continue to display prejudice while claiming you reject it.

The Koran ALLOWS polygamy, but under VERY tight restrictions. You MUST be able to treat the women EXACTLY equal in every manner. That is a STRONG prohibition against polygamy, but allows it for what its was intended: to seal tribal/political alliances. Its meant for people of exceptional means and ability - and its not a perk, its a RESPONSIBILITY.

Even more ignorant? In practice, throughout the Islamic world, the VAST majority of Muslim marriages are monogamous. Single spouse.

You would know this if you stopped telling Muslims how screwed up they were and actually listened to them. Actually read what they wrote. Actually took a hand extended in friendship rather than slap it away.

So, bluntly, I am telling you that your position on Islam is wrong, and it is prejudice. Bleet all you want that it is not, but you only harm yourself. You only deny yourself warm and honorable relationships with fellow human beings based on YOUR prejudiced opinion of their faith.

First of all, calm down. I'm not an atheist, don't worry :)

Second, I don't see where I've said or done anything offensive to Muslims as you claim. I'm just saying their stances on several things are jacked up. Plenty of people are offensive and dismissive, I'm not one of them.

Third, I never said the majority of Muslim marriages were polygamous. This is a reasonable page a quick search brings up that basically goes over various interpretations, which should shut up your ramblings about bias and prejudice, but pretty much matches my views on the matter.

http://answering-islam.org...

Fourth, I think you got too carried away to actually respond to what I said, except for my one-word mention of polygamy. I'll repost, since I'm actually interested to hear about these marriages:

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

You said, "But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy."

No, it does not.

You are factually wrong about that statement. Period.

You are doing the SAME thing to Islam that atheists do to Christianity. The EXACT same thing. Let me ignore what you are saying about YOUR faith and tell you why is screwed up. Its no different.

Ergo, being standards oriented, if I reject that kind of thinking when atheists do it, I reject it wham ANYONE does it. Its prejudice. Period.

You think it doesn't damage atheists when they call intelligent, kind, honorable people a bunch of slaving morons? You think, honestly, that this does not slam doors in your faith?

You think with American political realities, in oil, politics, diplomacy, finance, being fully integrated into the Middle East, that espousing wanton ignorance about Islam is not going to slam similar doors shut in your face?

You think a company exec is going to send you to handle his ME clients so you lecture them about a point of doctrine that is not even their doctrine?

Again, its wrong when atheist do it to ... everyone. Its wrong when Christians do it to Muslims.

I will speak this plainly. We like to consider ourselves a 'superior' society of tolerance. My Christianity, in the Middle East, has was never, not once, insulted the way you you just insulted Islam. Not once. Ever.

Instead, as I gained trust, Muslims grew comfortable enough to share their faith with me. Not to convert, but so I would understand. And as conversations grew between us, born of mutual understanding and trust ... Islam and Christianity are 99% the same. We have the same views on everything from sexuality to charity.

Are there points of disagreement? Yep. But there is disagreement in any relationship, and when we focus on issues of division over the wider body of agreement? When we deride out fellow man's honorable faith choice? We reap what we sew - A VERY Christian promise.

The vast majority of Muslims are honorable - to the point that I have no problem trusting the vast majority of them with my very life.
Fatihah
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6/20/2014 5:39:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:22:53 PM, Mineva wrote:

Your defense is men can marry more than one woman because they can feel in love with more than one woman. Then why women are not allowed to marry with more than one man ? Women can also feel in love more than one man according to your understanding.


Because Islam does not mean "love marriages" while it allows men to marry more than one. Islam just tries to save destitute women.

Response: And exactly what is a marriage to you? Your claims are very odd. Marriage in Islam is to care and provide for your spouse. That is love. So when a man marries another woman, what does he do? He takes care of her. So it is still love. You can play with words as you like, but in the end, the second wife is still being taken care of in Islam. So it is love.

As for the rest, men in Islam are the protectors and providers both physically and financially. That is the reason why Muslim men are allowed to marry more than one and women are not. For it is not the responsibility of women to care for the men.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/20/2014 5:42:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:38:50 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 5:28:17 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/20/2014 5:10:57 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:23:32 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/20/2014 4:09:14 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 11:03:53 AM, skinker wrote:
You forgot the most important aspect of love: giving your loved one freedom to be themselves and not a cardboard creature to be hidden away at home. I suggest all Muslims review what happened to the Puritan movement in England and early America to see what is in store for them in their future democracy where religious puritanism gets stopped in its tracks before it can do social violence damage that plagues Muslim countries. Where is the love of Muslims for each other when they don't agree? What we see is LUST for Bloodshed and no conception of what love really is, especially the capacity of love to Forgive the faults of others.

Well, clearly someone has never been around Muslims. Good Lord, maybe we could stop the prejudice? Some of the strongest marriages I have seen have been Islamic. Wives who love their husbands, and husbands who are unashamedly in love with their wife.

Of course, they won't bring you into their family life until they trust you, which, if you treat them like a bunch of monkey's isn't going to happen.

Your attitude, really, it does more damage to you than it does to Muslims. By a wide margin.

I'm against prejudice too, but you write off that posters' claims as pure prejudice and not based in fact. But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy, superiority of men over women, and beating wives to discipline them. One of the many quotes that condone these things was quoted in this topic.

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

No actually it doesn't, and you continue to display prejudice while claiming you reject it.

The Koran ALLOWS polygamy, but under VERY tight restrictions. You MUST be able to treat the women EXACTLY equal in every manner. That is a STRONG prohibition against polygamy, but allows it for what its was intended: to seal tribal/political alliances. Its meant for people of exceptional means and ability - and its not a perk, its a RESPONSIBILITY.

Even more ignorant? In practice, throughout the Islamic world, the VAST majority of Muslim marriages are monogamous. Single spouse.

You would know this if you stopped telling Muslims how screwed up they were and actually listened to them. Actually read what they wrote. Actually took a hand extended in friendship rather than slap it away.

So, bluntly, I am telling you that your position on Islam is wrong, and it is prejudice. Bleet all you want that it is not, but you only harm yourself. You only deny yourself warm and honorable relationships with fellow human beings based on YOUR prejudiced opinion of their faith.

First of all, calm down. I'm not an atheist, don't worry :)

Second, I don't see where I've said or done anything offensive to Muslims as you claim. I'm just saying their stances on several things are jacked up. Plenty of people are offensive and dismissive, I'm not one of them.

Third, I never said the majority of Muslim marriages were polygamous. This is a reasonable page a quick search brings up that basically goes over various interpretations, which should shut up your ramblings about bias and prejudice, but pretty much matches my views on the matter.

http://answering-islam.org...

Fourth, I think you got too carried away to actually respond to what I said, except for my one-word mention of polygamy. I'll repost, since I'm actually interested to hear about these marriages:

I wonder about the "strongest marriages" you speak of. Did the husband engage in the practices condoned by the Quaran? If so, then it was not a good marriage. I'm sure it was strong, since the fear of God is a strong motivator, but calling that a good marriage is horrible. If they did not engage in these practices, then they were hardly Muslim, since their sacred book very clearly commands such practices.

You said, "But the Quaran itself condones- even commands- such things as polygamy."

No, it does not.

You are factually wrong about that statement. Period.

You are doing the SAME thing to Islam that atheists do to Christianity. The EXACT same thing. Let me ignore what you are saying about YOUR faith and tell you why is screwed up. Its no different.

Ergo, being standards oriented, if I reject that kind of thinking when atheists do it, I reject it wham ANYONE does it. Its prejudice. Period.

You think it doesn't damage atheists when they call intelligent, kind, honorable people a bunch of slaving morons? You think, honestly, that this does not slam doors in your faith?

You think with American political realities, in oil, politics, diplomacy, finance, being fully integrated into the Middle East, that espousing wanton ignorance about Islam is not going to slam similar doors shut in your face?

You think a company exec is going to send you to handle his ME clients so you lecture them about a point of doctrine that is not even their doctrine?

Again, its wrong when atheist do it to ... everyone. Its wrong when Christians do it to Muslims.

I will speak this plainly. We like to consider ourselves a 'superior' society of tolerance. My Christianity, in the Middle East, has was never, not once, insulted the way you you just insulted Islam. Not once. Ever.

Instead, as I gained trust, Muslims grew comfortable enough to share their faith with me. Not to convert, but so I would understand. And as conversations grew between us, born of mutual understanding and trust ... Islam and Christianity are 99% the same. We have the same views on everything from sexuality to charity.

Are there points of disagreement? Yep. But there is disagreement in any relationship, and when we focus on issues of division over the wider body of agreement? When we deride out fellow man's honorable faith choice? We reap what we sew - A VERY Christian promise.

The vast majority of Muslims are honorable - to the point that I have no problem trusting the vast majority of them with my very life.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Under Islamic marital jurisprudence, Muslim men are allowed to practice polygyny, that is, they can have more than one wife at the same time, up to a total of four. Polyandry, the practice of a woman having more than one husband, by contrast, is not permitted."
neutral
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6/20/2014 5:46:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:42:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:


http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Under Islamic marital jurisprudence, Muslim men are allowed to practice polygyny, that is, they can have more than one wife at the same time, up to a total of four. Polyandry, the practice of a woman having more than one husband, by contrast, is not permitted."

That is not what you said, and I quoted it for you. You said it was COMMANDED, and you are still leaving out critical points - from your own source:

1-3% of Islamic marriages - so 97% of Muslims unaffected.

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

"Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), Ayah 3[1]

Aisha said, "O my nephew! (This Verse has been revealed in connection with) an orphan girl under the guardianship of her guardian who is attracted by her wealth and beauty and intends to marry her with a Mahr less than what other women of her standard deserve. So they (such guardians) have been forbidden to marry them unless they do justice to them and give them their full Mahr, and they are ordered to marry other women instead of them."

"Collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari[3]

Odd that you missed that IN YOUR OWN SOURCE.

Actually, it isn't - its the reality of prejudice.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/20/2014 5:47:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:46:36 PM, neutral wrote:
At 6/20/2014 5:42:04 PM, Hematite12 wrote:


http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Under Islamic marital jurisprudence, Muslim men are allowed to practice polygyny, that is, they can have more than one wife at the same time, up to a total of four. Polyandry, the practice of a woman having more than one husband, by contrast, is not permitted."

That is not what you said, and I quoted it for you. You said it was COMMANDED, and you are still leaving out critical points - from your own source:

1-3% of Islamic marriages - so 97% of Muslims unaffected.

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

"Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), Ayah 3[1]

Aisha said, "O my nephew! (This Verse has been revealed in connection with) an orphan girl under the guardianship of her guardian who is attracted by her wealth and beauty and intends to marry her with a Mahr less than what other women of her standard deserve. So they (such guardians) have been forbidden to marry them unless they do justice to them and give them their full Mahr, and they are ordered to marry other women instead of them."

"Collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari[3]

Odd that you missed that IN YOUR OWN SOURCE.

Actually, it isn't - its the reality of prejudice.

Where in your quote is it said that polygamy is immoral, as it is?
neutral
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6/20/2014 5:52:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/20/2014 5:47:50 PM, Hematite12 wrote:


Where in your quote is it said that polygamy is immoral, as it is?

Is that my claim?

Or did I very clearly state that it is allowed, in practice, for political purposes to men of great means and ability as a RESPONSIBILITY.

In MOST cases, it is.

But lets ask Mormons? You see they too allowed it for a time. Is it .. wrong .. to allow men to marry women at a time, in our forward thinking US (which is so tolerant by comparison) when we are killing their husbands and don't legally allow women to inherent property? Yet they still have children to feed and provide for?

Yet as we open this contextual restriction, do men abuse it? You bet. And its why, in practice, most Muslims severely frown upon the practice - which, when practiced by the lower classes is often quite rapacious. 97% of Muslims get it ... you do not.

Must mean Islam is all screwed up.