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Moses' Seat

jharry
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2/17/2010 6:16:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Matthew 23:1-3 (King James Version)

Matthew 23

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

What does this passage mean to you? Theists and Atheists alike?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/17/2010 6:47:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Thank you for your......informative.......post.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/17/2010 6:47:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:23:59 PM, Puck wrote:
The man liked his favourite chair.

I bet it was nice, I do like my chair.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/17/2010 6:51:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:26:46 PM, Puck wrote:
But if you want the scholarly version:

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Is this your opinion or did you simply look it up and give what explanation it gave? I don't know how to word that question correctly. I hope you know what I mean.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/17/2010 7:00:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:51:53 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:26:46 PM, Puck wrote:
But if you want the scholarly version:

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Is this your opinion or did you simply look it up and give what explanation it gave? I don't know how to word that question correctly. I hope you know what I mean.

Tis their cf. Basically the 'seat' is word of god, Jesus is saying, do as they say not as they do. :P
jharry
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2/17/2010 7:06:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 7:00:13 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:51:53 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:26:46 PM, Puck wrote:
But if you want the scholarly version:

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Is this your opinion or did you simply look it up and give what explanation it gave? I don't know how to word that question correctly. I hope you know what I mean.

Tis their cf. Basically the 'seat' is word of god, Jesus is saying, do as they say not as they do. :P

Cool, I've never looked at it that way. Did you get that from the link you posted? I always looked at it as a authority, this "seat". I always thought this because the Pharisees were teaching contrary to what the laws were intended to be, according to Jesus.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/17/2010 7:10:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 7:06:25 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 7:00:13 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:51:53 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:26:46 PM, Puck wrote:
But if you want the scholarly version:

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Is this your opinion or did you simply look it up and give what explanation it gave? I don't know how to word that question correctly. I hope you know what I mean.

Tis their cf. Basically the 'seat' is word of god, Jesus is saying, do as they say not as they do. :P

Cool, I've never looked at it that way. Did you get that from the link you posted? I always looked at it as a authority, this "seat". I always thought this because the Pharisees were teaching contrary to what the laws were intended to be, according to Jesus.

It's probably clearer minus KJV

'The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses'

Moses' role was yes, authority, but also as the messenger of God's commands - so Jesus is saying the Pharisees have taken the place of 'this is what god says' in terms of what people should be doing.

'therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.'

They say one thing and do another - don't follow what they do, follow what they say (they are hypocrites basically).
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/17/2010 7:28:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 7:10:46 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/17/2010 7:06:25 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 7:00:13 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:51:53 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:26:46 PM, Puck wrote:
But if you want the scholarly version:

http://www.biblegateway.com...

Is this your opinion or did you simply look it up and give what explanation it gave? I don't know how to word that question correctly. I hope you know what I mean.

Tis their cf. Basically the 'seat' is word of god, Jesus is saying, do as they say not as they do. :P

Cool, I've never looked at it that way. Did you get that from the link you posted? I always looked at it as a authority, this "seat". I always thought this because the Pharisees were teaching contrary to what the laws were intended to be, according to Jesus.

It's probably clearer minus KJV

'The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses'

Moses' role was yes, authority, but also as the messenger of God's commands - so Jesus is saying the Pharisees have taken the place of 'this is what god says' in terms of what people should be doing.

'therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.'

They say one thing and do another - don't follow what they do, follow what they say (they are hypocrites basically).

Yes they are, hypocrites. So does it seem like they had the authority to make these "laws" even though they were wrong, not only that they were hypocrites but that they made laws contrary to what was intended) according to Jesus? I'm fixin to go look at how many "laws" that began with "The Lord said" and how many started with "Moses said" It may be nothing but I thought it might be interesting.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/17/2010 8:28:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 7:28:48 PM, jharry wrote:
I'm fixin to go look at how many "laws" that began with "The Lord said" and how many started with "Moses said" It may be nothing but I thought it might be interesting.

Yeahh... Good luck with that. :P

http://pressiechurch.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/17/2010 8:36:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 8:28:40 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/17/2010 7:28:48 PM, jharry wrote:
I'm fixin to go look at how many "laws" that began with "The Lord said" and how many started with "Moses said" It may be nothing but I thought it might be interesting.

Yeahh... Good luck with that. :P

http://pressiechurch.org...

From the link:

The Law: All 613 Commandments! (248 Positive Commandments and 365 Negative Commandments)

LMAO!!!!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/17/2010 9:47:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

They can't be jews. The old testament(A.K.A the torah) doesn't matter, remember?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/18/2010 6:58:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:47:13 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Thank you for your......informative.......post.

Why ask for opinions if you are just going to reply with sarcasm?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/18/2010 7:01:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 9:47:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

They can't be jews. The old testament(A.K.A the torah) doesn't matter, remember?

That is a self-contradictory position, Jesus can not preach both for traditional Judaism and for the negation of most of its laws (which I believe was a latter addition).
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
BlessedCheesemaker
Posts: 20
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2/18/2010 7:43:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Its very important to gain context. Jesus himself was a Pharisee. Most Christians don't even know this. Jesus was essentially trying to change his own sect of Judaism. The reason he was given free reign to preach in temples all over the land was because he was accepted in the pharasitical community as one of them, he would never have been allowed to speak in the temple otherwise.

Understanding that helps clarify the verse. Jesus was speaking to the common Jew about what he knew was going on in the leadership structure. Kinda like a Bishop exposing wrong doing at the Vatican that most Catholics would never otherwise know about.

You can apply this verse to almost all ultra religious people. Whenever a person puts them self in the place of the law giver (Moses/God/Jesus/Allah) and starts using scripture to condemn others, they are embodying the very people who eventually killed Jesus and his message of peace. That and they are always hiding ungodly behaviour, its just how they roll.

So the next time we feel the need to use scripture like a rolling pin, we should probably look inward, and if you see others doing it, its quite alright to call them modern day Pharisees.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/18/2010 10:00:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 7:01:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 2/17/2010 9:47:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

They can't be jews. The old testament(A.K.A the torah) doesn't matter, remember?

That is a self-contradictory position, Jesus can not preach both for traditional Judaism and for the negation of most of its laws (which I believe was a latter addition).

Well jesus fails at being a jew then. I'm sure he's cringing up in heaven right now too, knowing what he has become...
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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2/18/2010 12:12:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:16:03 PM, jharry wrote:
Matthew 23:1-3 (King James Version)

Matthew 23

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

What does this passage mean to you? Theists and Atheists alike?

So, just cause their all hippocrites doesnt make them wrong. If you thought it did that would be an ad hominen fallacy.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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2/19/2010 9:03:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Except that Jesus claimed equality with God, which is where us Christians consider Him to be. Jews only consider Jesus to be a prophet. Other than that, Christians and Jews are the same.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
BlessedCheesemaker
Posts: 20
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2/19/2010 9:32:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 9:03:30 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Except that Jesus claimed equality with God, which is where us Christians consider Him to be. Jews only consider Jesus to be a prophet. Other than that, Christians and Jews are the same.

Most Jews consider him to be a false prophet. And prophet that claims divinity and then goes on to die and lead the Jews to secure world power clearly wasn't the Messiah and was definitely a false prophet.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/19/2010 10:27:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 9:32:51 AM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
At 2/19/2010 9:03:30 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Except that Jesus claimed equality with God, which is where us Christians consider Him to be. Jews only consider Jesus to be a prophet. Other than that, Christians and Jews are the same.

Most Jews consider him to be a false prophet. And prophet that claims divinity and then goes on to die and lead the Jews to secure world power clearly wasn't the Messiah and was definitely a false prophet.

Yea well, that could solve part of the mystery as to why jews are always picked on.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/19/2010 10:37:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 9:03:30 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Except that Jesus claimed equality with God, which is where us Christians consider Him to be. Jews only consider Jesus to be a prophet. Other than that, Christians and Jews are the same.

Very true, but sadly Christians made so many reformations it has become so far off from it's original roots.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/22/2010 7:01:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:16:03 PM, jharry wrote:
Matthew 23:1-3 (King James Version)

Matthew 23

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

What does this passage mean to you? Theists and Atheists alike?

The chair simply means the Authority of Moses.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/22/2010 7:07:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Implicit within this response is a reliance on a source material (The Bible) but C_N has dishonestly taken parts which adhere to his fixed agenda (to degrade Christianity and Christians) but ignores the parts (Christ's incessant claims to His own Deity and equality with God) which do not.
The Cross.. the Cross.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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3/24/2010 7:37:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 6:58:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:47:13 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:24:05 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Christianity is a false religion because Jesus was a devout Jew simply seeking to remove the hyprocrisey that naturally occurs in all organised cults. Christians should therefore be pious Jews.

Thank you for your......informative.......post.

Why ask for opinions if you are just going to reply with sarcasm?

My question was what do you think of Moses seat in Scriptures. You reply "Christianity is this and that. Do you honestly believe your reply was related to the question? Maybe very remotely, but that is at best. Your comment seemed like nothing more then another attack on Christianity rather then a conversation about the topic. Sorry if your were offended.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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3/24/2010 7:40:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 7:43:40 AM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:
Its very important to gain context. Jesus himself was a Pharisee. Most Christians don't even know this. Jesus was essentially trying to change his own sect of Judaism. The reason he was given free reign to preach in temples all over the land was because he was accepted in the pharasitical community as one of them, he would never have been allowed to speak in the temple otherwise.

Wow, I never knew that. Some references please.


Understanding that helps clarify the verse. Jesus was speaking to the common Jew about what he knew was going on in the leadership structure. Kinda like a Bishop exposing wrong doing at the Vatican that most Catholics would never otherwise know about.

You can apply this verse to almost all ultra religious people. Whenever a person puts them self in the place of the law giver (Moses/God/Jesus/Allah) and starts using scripture to condemn others, they are embodying the very people who eventually killed Jesus and his message of peace. That and they are always hiding ungodly behaviour, its just how they roll.

So the next time we feel the need to use scripture like a rolling pin, we should probably look inward, and if you see others doing it, its quite alright to call them modern day Pharisees.

I would have to agree with you on the last paragraph.

Thanks for the input.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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3/24/2010 7:41:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 12:12:33 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 2/17/2010 6:16:03 PM, jharry wrote:
Matthew 23:1-3 (King James Version)

Matthew 23

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

What does this passage mean to you? Theists and Atheists alike?

So, just cause their all hippocrites doesnt make them wrong. If you thought it did that would be an ad hominen fallacy.

Was that directed to me? I never said it did. But please tell me more about this.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen