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No one is Laughing at God

Dennybug
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6/21/2014 2:46:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So here's an interesting song that I was listening to, and it made me think about what the singer is talking about in her song.

Basically, do non-religious people(Specifically Atheists but not limited to) have the right to demean the idea of a god?

This song is discussing how god isn't so much of a joke anymore when one is in a particular conflict which is possibly life-threatening and is powerless to said event. (War, In a Hospital, Starving, Freezing, Worrying about loved ones, severe airplane turbulence, accidents)

Is it reasonable to assume that Atheism comes from a place of security? (Living in a stable environment, Stable Job, House to live in, Bed to sleep in, Good education)
vs. Atheism which comes from having collected enough evidence to dismiss the idea of god.

I believe that most young people specifically in westernized societies have been grown up in a stable environment with a decent education compared to more rural parts of the world more prone to suffering and therefor religion.

And that under these circumstances they begin to dismiss the notion of god because it isnt needed to live happily and with comfort.

VS, people who live in particular conflict zones, or people experiencing traumatic events completely powerless to their situations(In comparison to people going out partying and sleeping in a cozy bed etc.) Begin to pray to a higher being and and long for a time when they are no longer in this situation.

Is it fair to completely dismiss the notion of god from a place of complete ignorance and security? While using the excuse that it's completely educated to say there is no god.

--------------------

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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6/21/2014 3:26:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/21/2014 2:46:49 PM, Dennybug wrote:


So here's an interesting song that I was listening to, and it made me think about what the singer is talking about in her song.

Basically, do non-religious people(Specifically Atheists but not limited to) have the right to demean the idea of a god?
Absolutely! Do you have the right to demean the idea of fairies? The evidence for God is the same as for fairies. So if one can demean the idea of fairies, one can just as easily (and appropriately), demean the idea of God.

This song is discussing how god isn't so much of a joke anymore when one is in a particular conflict which is possibly life-threatening and is powerless to said event. (War, In a Hospital, Starving, Freezing, Worrying about loved ones, severe airplane turbulence, accidents)
Well, fairy shields might not be seen as a joke to someone falling victim to a bombing raid. But it's a mistake to suggest that it makes them any more likely. If one were brought up with a belief in anti-cancer fairies, they might take the idea very seriously when diagnosed with cancer. But whether or not one believes in anti-cancer fairies will have no effect on their cancer.

Believing in absurd ideas devoid of evidence doesn't become less absurd simply because you're in immediate peril. They're still silly ideas and they won't do anything to save you. And if all you do is sit there waiting for God, or fairies, or your rabbit's foot, or a favorite chant.. to save you, your odds of surviving will likely decrease over someone who accepts the reality, and takes whatever steps may be available to actually help their situation.

Is it reasonable to assume that Atheism comes from a place of security? (Living in a stable environment, Stable Job, House to live in, Bed to sleep in, Good education) vs. Atheism which comes from having collected enough evidence to dismiss the idea of god.
Atheism comes from exactly the same place as disbelief in fairies, Leprechauns, unicorns, mermaids and gremlins - the pure lack of evidence to support the idea.

I believe that most young people specifically in westernized societies have been grown up in a stable environment with a decent education compared to more rural parts of the world more prone to suffering and therefor religion.
What you're doing here is pointing out that the idea of God arose from ignorance mixed with desperation. I won't argue that point. However, one might fall back on any idea which offers them hope (no matter how false), in a time of severe desperation. A young child might hope that Superman will swoop down out of the clouds and rescue them. An adult theist does the same with God. And yet... it never happens. But hey... despite the tens of billions of people who have died while praying to their individual gods, maybe you'll be the one, huh? And yet, it still never happens. Atheists accept that and what it tells about about the idea of God. Theists remain ever blind to the reality, because they allow their emotionalism to over-ride rationality.

And that under these circumstances they begin to dismiss the notion of god because it isnt needed to live happily and with comfort.
Ever notice how the notion of God doesn't extract people from their insecure, threatening environments?

VS, people who live in particular conflict zones, or people experiencing traumatic events completely powerless to their situations(In comparison to people going out partying and sleeping in a cozy bed etc.) Begin to pray to a higher being and and long for a time when they are no longer in this situation.
No, some people in such circumstances begin to believe in a higher power because it gives them hope... false hope. Others in exactly the same circumstances remain rational and don't suddenly see it as appropriate to adopt belief in fairies, God, genies, Zeus, the power of the number 7, or whatever superstition with which they're familiar.

Is it fair to completely dismiss the notion of god from a place of complete ignorance and security? While using the excuse that it's completely educated to say there is no god.
We're not in a place of complete ignorance. Nor are we in a place of complete security. I recently lost my fiance' to cancer. Does that sound like a place of complete security to you? Did it mean that either she or I suddenly started believing in God? Of course not! We were both intelligent, rational people. Of course that didn't stop doctors, nurses, friends and family from praying for her. And all of those prayers did nothing to save her life.

Did I want an entity to exist which could sweep down and eliminate the cancer from her body? Of course I did. But that didn't mean I started inventing all kinds of non-existent beings, factors or spells to try to cure her. I still wish it was all a bad dream. I wish I had her back. I'd be happier if she had simply been whisked away to some secret research facility that could cure her, even if I never saw her again. But that's not reality. And believing in fairytales won't change the reality, no matter how much I want it to, or how much I desperately need it to.

Atheism is simply the rationality and strength to accept reality for what it is, instead of engaging in childish flights of fancy, which one retains no matter how often they fail, or how devoid they are of support.

--------------------

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.
I love music and I always have. And sometimes it's easy to get lost in lyrics when you love the music to which the lyrics are set. But this silly idea that song writers have superior enlightenment is just silly. Many of them are actually a bit lacking when it comes to intelligence and insight. Their skill is their music, not magic.

"Faith" is just another way to say "closed-minded".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
skinker
Posts: 345
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6/21/2014 8:51:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Poor man! Double losses. A loved one and no anchoring faith in anything. Faith cures happen. I seen it myself. And lots of con-men take advantage of it. It is a form of hypnosis and I once had three deep cavities filled under hypnosis without ever experiencing any pain. Faith is hypnotizing oneself and reaching a state of mind in which one feels securely in the hands of God, a Higher Power than you or I. We are programmed for this because reality is not what it seems and is our School of Living for teaching our souls how to be in the World to Come. That's why we pray because we know this reality is only temporary, a testing range where missiles are fired at us until we are eventually destroyed physically. The ones identifying only with the physical believe they will be destroyed too but that's not the case for those who have discovered there's more to life than meets the eye or microscope.
Dennybug
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6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/21/2014 3:26:40 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/21/2014 2:46:49 PM, Dennybug wrote:


So here's an interesting song that I was listening to, and it made me think about what the singer is talking about in her song.

Basically, do non-religious people(Specifically Atheists but not limited to) have the right to demean the idea of a god?
Absolutely! Do you have the right to demean the idea of fairies? The evidence for God is the same as for fairies. So if one can demean the idea of fairies, one can just as easily (and appropriately), demean the idea of God.

This song is discussing how god isn't so much of a joke anymore when one is in a particular conflict which is possibly life-threatening and is powerless to said event. (War, In a Hospital, Starving, Freezing, Worrying about loved ones, severe airplane turbulence, accidents)
Well, fairy shields might not be seen as a joke to someone falling victim to a bombing raid. But it's a mistake to suggest that it makes them any more likely. If one were brought up with a belief in anti-cancer fairies, they might take the idea very seriously when diagnosed with cancer. But whether or not one believes in anti-cancer fairies will have no effect on their cancer.

Believing in absurd ideas devoid of evidence doesn't become less absurd simply because you're in immediate peril. They're still silly ideas and they won't do anything to save you. And if all you do is sit there waiting for God, or fairies, or your rabbit's foot, or a favorite chant.. to save you, your odds of surviving will likely decrease over someone who accepts the reality, and takes whatever steps may be available to actually help their situation.

Is it reasonable to assume that Atheism comes from a place of security? (Living in a stable environment, Stable Job, House to live in, Bed to sleep in, Good education) vs. Atheism which comes from having collected enough evidence to dismiss the idea of god.
Atheism comes from exactly the same place as disbelief in fairies, Leprechauns, unicorns, mermaids and gremlins - the pure lack of evidence to support the idea.

I believe that most young people specifically in westernized societies have been grown up in a stable environment with a decent education compared to more rural parts of the world more prone to suffering and therefor religion.
What you're doing here is pointing out that the idea of God arose from ignorance mixed with desperation. I won't argue that point. However, one might fall back on any idea which offers them hope (no matter how false), in a time of severe desperation. A young child might hope that Superman will swoop down out of the clouds and rescue them. An adult theist does the same with God. And yet... it never happens. But hey... despite the tens of billions of people who have died while praying to their individual gods, maybe you'll be the one, huh? And yet, it still never happens. Atheists accept that and what it tells about about the idea of God. Theists remain ever blind to the reality, because they allow their emotionalism to over-ride rationality.

And that under these circumstances they begin to dismiss the notion of god because it isnt needed to live happily and with comfort.
Ever notice how the notion of God doesn't extract people from their insecure, threatening environments?

VS, people who live in particular conflict zones, or people experiencing traumatic events completely powerless to their situations(In comparison to people going out partying and sleeping in a cozy bed etc.) Begin to pray to a higher being and and long for a time when they are no longer in this situation.
No, some people in such circumstances begin to believe in a higher power because it gives them hope... false hope. Others in exactly the same circumstances remain rational and don't suddenly see it as appropriate to adopt belief in fairies, God, genies, Zeus, the power of the number 7, or whatever superstition with which they're familiar.

Is it fair to completely dismiss the notion of god from a place of complete ignorance and security? While using the excuse that it's completely educated to say there is no god.
We're not in a place of complete ignorance. Nor are we in a place of complete security. I recently lost my fiance' to cancer. Does that sound like a place of complete security to you? Did it mean that either she or I suddenly started believing in God? Of course not! We were both intelligent, rational people. Of course that didn't stop doctors, nurses, friends and family from praying for her. And all of those prayers did nothing to save her life.

Did I want an entity to exist which could sweep down and eliminate the cancer from her body? Of course I did. But that didn't mean I started inventing all kinds of non-existent beings, factors or spells to try to cure her. I still wish it was all a bad dream. I wish I had her back. I'd be happier if she had simply been whisked away to some secret research facility that could cure her, even if I never saw her again. But that's not reality. And believing in fairytales won't change the reality, no matter how much I want it to, or how much I desperately need it to.

Atheism is simply the rationality and strength to accept reality for what it is, instead of engaging in childish flights of fancy, which one retains no matter how often they fail, or how devoid they are of support.

--------------------

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.
I love music and I always have. And sometimes it's easy to get lost in lyrics when you love the music to which the lyrics are set. But this silly idea that song writers have superior enlightenment is just silly. Many of them are actually a bit lacking when it comes to intelligence and insight. Their skill is their music, not magic.

"Faith" is just another way to say "closed-minded".

Thank you for the reply! your response is gonna be hard to reply to since its jumping from place to place. So the main idea I was discussing wasn't about proving the existence of anything. It was about rationalizing faith towards a higher being, when we are in a situation that is powerless to us.

I'm sorry to hear about your fiance. you mentioned yourself having started to hope that there was some magical spaghetti monster/fairy that could swish down and save her. This is exactly what I was talking about originally in my post.

That the more we're in situations that are out of control, and the more desperate we become. The more we begin to hope that there is a higher being that can take us out of this situation.

When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.

Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example. Since faith is just a solid belief in something. Doesnt matter what you might do to try and support your faith whether it be rational thinking or crazed prayer rituals or whatever habits a religion might ask of you.

So this is off topic but anyways, is it fair to shoot down the faith and hope of despairing people just because at the time and place you're in a better situation?
Dennybug
Posts: 711
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6/21/2014 11:54:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.
I love music and I always have. And sometimes it's easy to get lost in lyrics when you love the music to which the lyrics are set. But this silly idea that song writers have superior enlightenment is just silly. Many of them are actually a bit lacking when it comes to intelligence and insight. Their skill is their music, not magic.


It was just something I wanted discuss because i found the idea of it interesting.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/22/2014 12:06:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.

god isn't needed.

fix'd that for ya.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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6/22/2014 12:09:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/21/2014 8:51:29 PM, skinker wrote:
Poor man! Double losses. A loved one and no anchoring faith in anything. Faith cures happen. I seen it myself. And lots of con-men take advantage of it. It is a form of hypnosis and I once had three deep cavities filled under hypnosis without ever experiencing any pain. Faith is hypnotizing oneself and reaching a state of mind in which one feels securely in the hands of God, a Higher Power than you or I. We are programmed for this because reality is not what it seems and is our School of Living for teaching our souls how to be in the World to Come. That's why we pray because we know this reality is only temporary, a testing range where missiles are fired at us until we are eventually destroyed physically. The ones identifying only with the physical believe they will be destroyed too but that's not the case for those who have discovered there's more to life than meets the eye or microscope.

The reason that you don't see faith healers working in hospitals is the same reason you don't see psychics winning the lottery every week.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 12:11:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:06:57 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.

god isn't needed.

fix'd that for ya.

you've completely misunderstood my post. It's not discussing people in situations that don't need god.

It's discussing people in situations so out of their control that need god.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/22/2014 12:18:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:11:53 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:06:57 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.

god isn't needed.

fix'd that for ya.

you've completely misunderstood my post. It's not discussing people in situations that don't need god.

It's discussing people in situations so out of their control that need god.

And as Beastt told you their need is filled by their imagination.

god isn't needed.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 12:22:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:18:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:11:53 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:06:57 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.

god isn't needed.

fix'd that for ya.

you've completely misunderstood my post. It's not discussing people in situations that don't need god.

It's discussing people in situations so out of their control that need god.

And as Beastt told you their need is filled by their imagination.

god isn't needed.


are you beast? Have you looked at my response?

You have no idea whats being discussed, clearly. And you're trying to derail this to become a IS GOD REAL discussion, which it isnt.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/22/2014 12:33:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
In your response you showed that you didn't have a clue what Beastt was talking about.

I don't need to argue whether god exists or not. Don't put your weights up sonny.

In your response you produced this ridiculous canard.
Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example.

Stop listening to the apologists and educate yourself.

god isn't needed.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 3:48:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:33:58 AM, bulproof wrote:
In your response you showed that you didn't have a clue what Beastt was talking about.

I don't need to argue whether god exists or not. Don't put your weights up sonny.

In your response you produced this ridiculous canard.
Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example.

Stop listening to the apologists and educate yourself.

god isn't needed.

lol what are you trying to prove? you think using someone else's communication as your own argument makes you look smart.

Not sure what you're even trying to discuss here but it's not related to what i've originally said.

Feel free to post your own topic.
bulproof
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6/22/2014 5:47:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 3:48:31 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:33:58 AM, bulproof wrote:
In your response you showed that you didn't have a clue what Beastt was talking about.

I don't need to argue whether god exists or not. Don't put your weights up sonny.

In your response you produced this ridiculous canard.
Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example.

Stop listening to the apologists and educate yourself.

god isn't needed.

lol what are you trying to prove? you think using someone else's communication as your own argument makes you look smart.

Not sure what you're even trying to discuss here but it's not related to what i've originally said.

Feel free to post your own topic.
I'll let you go, you are only a child and therefore beyond understanding yet.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2014 5:57:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think both knowledge and security give people the power to dismiss deities. I'm sure there are a lot of people that don't dismiss deities from a position of logic, but that doesn't mean that deities exist.
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Beastt
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6/22/2014 9:19:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
Thank you for the reply! your response is gonna be hard to reply to since its jumping from place to place.
I simply addressed each of your points.

So the main idea I was discussing wasn't about proving the existence of anything. It was about rationalizing faith towards a higher being, when we are in a situation that is powerless to us.
What's the difference between that and rationalizing witch doctors, volcano gods, or any other superstition? It's just holding false beliefs because they're emotionally pacifying. Think about how hard people would search for real cures if they were still certain that evil spirits caused disease. I've heard people my whole life who just "leave it in God's hands", when there are things they could be doing to help themselves.

I'm sorry to hear about your fiance. you mentioned yourself having started to hope that there was some magical spaghetti monster/fairy that could swish down and save her. This is exactly what I was talking about originally in my post.
No, I said I could have done that. Sure I would have loved to think such an entity actually existed, but there isn't one who what's the point in believing in one? Would it have helped my fiance?

That the more we're in situations that are out of control, and the more desperate we become. The more we begin to hope that there is a higher being that can take us out of this situation.
The problem is that you're trying to excuse God belief because it's popular and prominent. But what other superstitions might you try to defend simply because they lend people false hope? What's the point in lying to yourself?

When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.
And we can dismiss God just as easily when we're in dire circumstances because God doesn't exist. It makes no more sense to believe in God than to believe in fairies. Fairies might pwang you with their wand and make it all go away too. Why aren't you suggesting that we should endorse belief in fairies?

Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example.
I see you're new to theistic debate. I've seen that claim made at least 100 times and it's just a pathetically poor and sad fallacy. It takes zero faith to be an atheist. Do you think it takes faith to disbelieve in unicorns? There's no evidence for unicorns, and no evidence for God. So it takes faith to believe, and no faith to disbelieve.

Since faith is just a solid belief in something.
Sorry, but that is also incorrect. Faith is belief devoid of objective evidence. Do you believe the sun provides Earth with thermal energy? It doesn't take any faith to believe that because we have vast amount of evidence to support it. But if you wanted to suggest that Earth receives its thermal energy from a cosmic elf, now you need faith.

Doesnt matter what you might do to try and support your faith whether it be rational thinking or crazed prayer rituals or whatever habits a religion might ask of you.
Any time you're told to have faith, someone is trying to sell you bovine excrement. Truth NEVER requires faith.

So this is off topic but anyways, is it fair to shoot down the faith and hope of despairing people just because at the time and place you're in a better situation?
It's not just fair, it's appropriate, beneficial and as fair as telling people to see a real doctor for their medical issues, rather than visiting the witch doctor who will shake a dead chicken over then, sprinkle them with ashes from an incinerated toad, and assure them they'll feel better by morning. All superstitions are misleading, a waste of time and effort, and the promotion of utter irrationality.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
irreverent_god
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6/22/2014 9:40:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/21/2014 2:46:49 PM, Dennybug wrote:


So here's an interesting song that I was listening to, and it made me think about what the singer is talking about in her song.

First off, I didn't find the song interesting, at all. It's a completely emotional appeal, every bit of it based on dire circumstances. Further, the musicality and poetry are both lacking.

Basically, do non-religious people(Specifically Atheists but not limited to) have the right to demean the idea of a god?

Yes, we (atheists/agnostics) do. Any person has the right to demean any idea they wish. Religion and faith do not have any special protection against ridicule. Faith does not have the authority to hold itself in a special position, free of derision, despite its ridiculous claims, assertions, and authoritarian mandates.

This song is discussing how god isn't so much of a joke anymore when one is in a particular conflict which is possibly life-threatening and is powerless to said event. (War, In a Hospital, Starving, Freezing, Worrying about loved ones, severe airplane turbulence, accidents)

Yes, the argument of extreme circumstances. It's the "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument. I know, for a fact, that this is a false statement. I've been under fire, and never once thought to seek "divine" help. The "no one," in this song, is patently false. While it tries to convey a nice little emotional sentiment, it is still just that: emotional.

Is it reasonable to assume that Atheism comes from a place of security? (Living in a stable environment, Stable Job, House to live in, Bed to sleep in, Good education)
vs. Atheism which comes from having collected enough evidence to dismiss the idea of god.

Sometimes, yes. Others, no. Atheism comes from different places, for different people. The same is true of agnosticism. Agnostics like myself haven't rejected the possibility of
a gawd existing, but those gawds that have been proposed by humans, to date, are all viicious, malevolent, and unworthy of the worship their manuscripts demand.

I believe that most young people specifically in westernized societies have been grown up in a stable environment with a decent education compared to more rural parts of the world more prone to suffering and therefor religion.

Poverty and ignorance have long been fertile soil for the planting of religious "promises." This is true, to this very day. You will find that religion actually seeks out this territory, specifically because the ignorant are the most easily controlled.

And that under these circumstances they begin to dismiss the notion of god because it isnt needed to live happily and with comfort.

The notion of gawd (those proposed, to date) are dismissed because they are not needed, at all. In fact, they are detrimental to humanity, as a whole.

VS, people who live in particular conflict zones, or people experiencing traumatic events completely powerless to their situations(In comparison to people going out partying and sleeping in a cozy bed etc.) Begin to pray to a higher being and and long for a time when they are no longer in this situation.

That's exactly the point. Religion provides the warm fuzzy promises of "something better," often in another life, and all of it contingent upon their obedience right now. Obedience to what varies only by religion, but the the obedience is generally demanded by those that claim to speak on behalf the the specific deity in question. It is generally accompanied by that deity's need for material goods in order to further the "work" of said deity.

Is it fair to completely dismiss the notion of god from a place of complete ignorance and security? While using the excuse that it's completely educated to say there is no god.

No one I know dismisses the notion of gawd from a place "of complete ignorance." Using an emotional appeal to attempt to make it "wrong" to dismiss your gawd (whichever one you worship), as you seem to be a believer. It is "fair" to dismiss any notion, as long as it is dismissed for a valid reason.

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.

I thought the song was stupid. I think all human gawds that have been proposed to date are stupid. I think religions (the organizations) are stupid and malevolent.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Burzmali
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6/22/2014 10:09:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I can only speak for myself, but I've been on the verge of death, in the hospital with family on their way to say good bye, and never once felt the need to call out to any god or hope that one existed. I may not have "laughed at god," but I definitely scoffed at the folks who tried to peddle their superstition at me while I lay in bed connected to monitors and a dialysis machine.

"I find a lot of strength in this book," my step mom said as she tried to give me a Bible. I told her she should probably hang onto it, then. After that, my mother-in-law tried to get me to submit to a past life regression so I could better understand where I might end up "in my next life." For me, both of those were ridiculous.

While the people wrapped up in their fairy tales tried to get me to prepare for death, I put my "faith," if you can call it that, in the people who were actually doing something to heal me: the nurses and doctors who worked tirelessly to keep me alive; my wife and my brother, who kept me in good spirits; blood/plasma donors.

So, no, my atheism definitely does not come from a place of security. It comes from a childhood that thankfully didn't include any religious indoctrination, and it doesn't waiver when life gets hard.

Frankly, it makes me sad to see people give credit to a god rather than themselves and other people when they get through tough situations, big or small. I have friends who thank their god for the strength to get healthy. Their god didn't get them up at 6 a.m. to exercise and replace their junk food with fruits and vegetables. They did those things for themselves.
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 10:43:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 9:40:30 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/21/2014 2:46:49 PM, Dennybug wrote:


So here's an interesting song that I was listening to, and it made me think about what the singer is talking about in her song.

First off, I didn't find the song interesting, at all. It's a completely emotional appeal, every bit of it based on dire circumstances. Further, the musicality and poetry are both lacking.

Basically, do non-religious people(Specifically Atheists but not limited to) have the right to demean the idea of a god?

Yes, we (atheists/agnostics) do. Any person has the right to demean any idea they wish. Religion and faith do not have any special protection against ridicule. Faith does not have the authority to hold itself in a special position, free of derision, despite its ridiculous claims, assertions, and authoritarian mandates.

This song is discussing how god isn't so much of a joke anymore when one is in a particular conflict which is possibly life-threatening and is powerless to said event. (War, In a Hospital, Starving, Freezing, Worrying about loved ones, severe airplane turbulence, accidents)

Yes, the argument of extreme circumstances. It's the "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument. I know, for a fact, that this is a false statement. I've been under fire, and never once thought to seek "divine" help. The "no one," in this song, is patently false. While it tries to convey a nice little emotional sentiment, it is still just that: emotional.

Is it reasonable to assume that Atheism comes from a place of security? (Living in a stable environment, Stable Job, House to live in, Bed to sleep in, Good education)
vs. Atheism which comes from having collected enough evidence to dismiss the idea of god.

Sometimes, yes. Others, no. Atheism comes from different places, for different people. The same is true of agnosticism. Agnostics like myself haven't rejected the possibility of
a gawd existing, but those gawds that have been proposed by humans, to date, are all viicious, malevolent, and unworthy of the worship their manuscripts demand.

I believe that most young people specifically in westernized societies have been grown up in a stable environment with a decent education compared to more rural parts of the world more prone to suffering and therefor religion.

Poverty and ignorance have long been fertile soil for the planting of religious "promises." This is true, to this very day. You will find that religion actually seeks out this territory, specifically because the ignorant are the most easily controlled.

And that under these circumstances they begin to dismiss the notion of god because it isnt needed to live happily and with comfort.

The notion of gawd (those proposed, to date) are dismissed because they are not needed, at all. In fact, they are detrimental to humanity, as a whole.

VS, people who live in particular conflict zones, or people experiencing traumatic events completely powerless to their situations(In comparison to people going out partying and sleeping in a cozy bed etc.) Begin to pray to a higher being and and long for a time when they are no longer in this situation.

That's exactly the point. Religion provides the warm fuzzy promises of "something better," often in another life, and all of it contingent upon their obedience right now. Obedience to what varies only by religion, but the the obedience is generally demanded by those that claim to speak on behalf the the specific deity in question. It is generally accompanied by that deity's need for material goods in order to further the "work" of said deity.

Is it fair to completely dismiss the notion of god from a place of complete ignorance and security? While using the excuse that it's completely educated to say there is no god.

No one I know dismisses the notion of gawd from a place "of complete ignorance." Using an emotional appeal to attempt to make it "wrong" to dismiss your gawd (whichever one you worship), as you seem to be a believer. It is "fair" to dismiss any notion, as long as it is dismissed for a valid reason.

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.

I thought the song was stupid. I think all human gawds that have been proposed to date are stupid. I think religions (the organizations) are stupid and malevolent.

hi thanks a lot for the reply! and for discussing what I've said I appreciate it lots.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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6/22/2014 10:44:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:43:16 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 9:40:30 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 6/21/2014 2:46:49 PM, Dennybug wrote:


So here's an interesting song that I was listening to, and it made me think about what the singer is talking about in her song.

First off, I didn't find the song interesting, at all. It's a completely emotional appeal, every bit of it based on dire circumstances. Further, the musicality and poetry are both lacking.

Basically, do non-religious people(Specifically Atheists but not limited to) have the right to demean the idea of a god?

Yes, we (atheists/agnostics) do. Any person has the right to demean any idea they wish. Religion and faith do not have any special protection against ridicule. Faith does not have the authority to hold itself in a special position, free of derision, despite its ridiculous claims, assertions, and authoritarian mandates.

This song is discussing how god isn't so much of a joke anymore when one is in a particular conflict which is possibly life-threatening and is powerless to said event. (War, In a Hospital, Starving, Freezing, Worrying about loved ones, severe airplane turbulence, accidents)

Yes, the argument of extreme circumstances. It's the "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument. I know, for a fact, that this is a false statement. I've been under fire, and never once thought to seek "divine" help. The "no one," in this song, is patently false. While it tries to convey a nice little emotional sentiment, it is still just that: emotional.

Is it reasonable to assume that Atheism comes from a place of security? (Living in a stable environment, Stable Job, House to live in, Bed to sleep in, Good education)
vs. Atheism which comes from having collected enough evidence to dismiss the idea of god.

Sometimes, yes. Others, no. Atheism comes from different places, for different people. The same is true of agnosticism. Agnostics like myself haven't rejected the possibility of
a gawd existing, but those gawds that have been proposed by humans, to date, are all viicious, malevolent, and unworthy of the worship their manuscripts demand.

I believe that most young people specifically in westernized societies have been grown up in a stable environment with a decent education compared to more rural parts of the world more prone to suffering and therefor religion.

Poverty and ignorance have long been fertile soil for the planting of religious "promises." This is true, to this very day. You will find that religion actually seeks out this territory, specifically because the ignorant are the most easily controlled.

And that under these circumstances they begin to dismiss the notion of god because it isnt needed to live happily and with comfort.

The notion of gawd (those proposed, to date) are dismissed because they are not needed, at all. In fact, they are detrimental to humanity, as a whole.

VS, people who live in particular conflict zones, or people experiencing traumatic events completely powerless to their situations(In comparison to people going out partying and sleeping in a cozy bed etc.) Begin to pray to a higher being and and long for a time when they are no longer in this situation.

That's exactly the point. Religion provides the warm fuzzy promises of "something better," often in another life, and all of it contingent upon their obedience right now. Obedience to what varies only by religion, but the the obedience is generally demanded by those that claim to speak on behalf the the specific deity in question. It is generally accompanied by that deity's need for material goods in order to further the "work" of said deity.

Is it fair to completely dismiss the notion of god from a place of complete ignorance and security? While using the excuse that it's completely educated to say there is no god.

No one I know dismisses the notion of gawd from a place "of complete ignorance." Using an emotional appeal to attempt to make it "wrong" to dismiss your gawd (whichever one you worship), as you seem to be a believer. It is "fair" to dismiss any notion, as long as it is dismissed for a valid reason.

Just a thought i was developing while listening to this song, I'd love to hear what you guys think about this.

I thought the song was stupid. I think all human gawds that have been proposed to date are stupid. I think religions (the organizations) are stupid and malevolent.

hi thanks a lot for the reply! and for discussing what I've said I appreciate it lots.

My pleasure.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 10:58:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 9:19:12 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
Thank you for the reply! your response is gonna be hard to reply to since its jumping from place to place.
I simply addressed each of your points.

So the main idea I was discussing wasn't about proving the existence of anything. It was about rationalizing faith towards a higher being, when we are in a situation that is powerless to us.
What's the difference between that and rationalizing witch doctors, volcano gods, or any other superstition? It's just holding false beliefs because they're emotionally pacifying. Think about how hard people would search for real cures if they were still certain that evil spirits caused disease. I've heard people my whole life who just "leave it in God's hands", when there are things they could be doing to help themselves.

I'm sorry to hear about your fiance. you mentioned yourself having started to hope that there was some magical spaghetti monster/fairy that could swish down and save her. This is exactly what I was talking about originally in my post.
No, I said I could have done that. Sure I would have loved to think such an entity actually existed, but there isn't one who what's the point in believing in one? Would it have helped my fiance?

That the more we're in situations that are out of control, and the more desperate we become. The more we begin to hope that there is a higher being that can take us out of this situation.
The problem is that you're trying to excuse God belief because it's popular and prominent. But what other superstitions might you try to defend simply because they lend people false hope? What's the point in lying to yourself?

When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.
And we can dismiss God just as easily when we're in dire circumstances because God doesn't exist. It makes no more sense to believe in God than to believe in fairies. Fairies might pwang you with their wand and make it all go away too. Why aren't you suggesting that we should endorse belief in fairies?

Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example.
I see you're new to theistic debate. I've seen that claim made at least 100 times and it's just a pathetically poor and sad fallacy. It takes zero faith to be an atheist. Do you think it takes faith to disbelieve in unicorns? There's no evidence for unicorns, and no evidence for God. So it takes faith to believe, and no faith to disbelieve.

Since faith is just a solid belief in something.
Sorry, but that is also incorrect. Faith is belief devoid of objective evidence. Do you believe the sun provides Earth with thermal energy? It doesn't take any faith to believe that because we have vast amount of evidence to support it. But if you wanted to suggest that Earth receives its thermal energy from a cosmic elf, now you need faith.

Doesnt matter what you might do to try and support your faith whether it be rational thinking or crazed prayer rituals or whatever habits a religion might ask of you.
Any time you're told to have faith, someone is trying to sell you bovine excrement. Truth NEVER requires faith.

So this is off topic but anyways, is it fair to shoot down the faith and hope of despairing people just because at the time and place you're in a better situation?
It's not just fair, it's appropriate, beneficial and as fair as telling people to see a real doctor for their medical issues, rather than visiting the witch doctor who will shake a dead chicken over then, sprinkle them with ashes from an incinerated toad, and assure them they'll feel better by morning. All superstitions are misleading, a waste of time and effort, and the promotion of utter irrationality.

I'm sorry if I come off as trying to prove something to you, or like i'm trying arguing ignorantly, I probably am anyways.

I really appreciate your responses and insight and lots of what you say is true. But please don't try and attack what you assume my personal beliefs are when I'm just discussing a frame of thought I had while listening to a song, not a solid belief or anything in that nature. Just trying to argue from a different perspective.

I never dismissed the idea of fairy gods, or Voodoo magic. or any seemingly preposterous idea.

My original response, I was just rationalizing faith and hope. You came on to me with a seemingly bitter response attacking your idea of what I believe in or what I'm trying to prove.

Of course nothing can be known about the existence of god, but if I believe there is no god, I'm still believing in something.

Anyways I really don't mean to debate those things since it wasn't my intention from the start. I was just rationalizing faith in situations where you are out of control. Nothing more.

I am thankful for your response and consideration on the topic.
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 11:01:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:09:22 AM, Burzmali wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but I've been on the verge of death, in the hospital with family on their way to say good bye, and never once felt the need to call out to any god or hope that one existed. I may not have "laughed at god," but I definitely scoffed at the folks who tried to peddle their superstition at me while I lay in bed connected to monitors and a dialysis machine.

"I find a lot of strength in this book," my step mom said as she tried to give me a Bible. I told her she should probably hang onto it, then. After that, my mother-in-law tried to get me to submit to a past life regression so I could better understand where I might end up "in my next life." For me, both of those were ridiculous.

While the people wrapped up in their fairy tales tried to get me to prepare for death, I put my "faith," if you can call it that, in the people who were actually doing something to heal me: the nurses and doctors who worked tirelessly to keep me alive; my wife and my brother, who kept me in good spirits; blood/plasma donors.

So, no, my atheism definitely does not come from a place of security. It comes from a childhood that thankfully didn't include any religious indoctrination, and it doesn't waiver when life gets hard.

Frankly, it makes me sad to see people give credit to a god rather than themselves and other people when they get through tough situations, big or small. I have friends who thank their god for the strength to get healthy. Their god didn't get them up at 6 a.m. to exercise and replace their junk food with fruits and vegetables. They did those things for themselves.

thanks for the response :) this is exactly what i was discussing and i appreciate it.

I agree with everything you say to an extent
Dennybug
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6/22/2014 11:05:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 5:47:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/22/2014 3:48:31 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:33:58 AM, bulproof wrote:
In your response you showed that you didn't have a clue what Beastt was talking about.

I don't need to argue whether god exists or not. Don't put your weights up sonny.

In your response you produced this ridiculous canard.
Atheism requires as much faith as being a christian or muslim for example.

Stop listening to the apologists and educate yourself.

god isn't needed.

lol what are you trying to prove? you think using someone else's communication as your own argument makes you look smart.

Not sure what you're even trying to discuss here but it's not related to what i've originally said.

Feel free to post your own topic.
I'll let you go, you are only a child and therefore beyond understanding yet.

thanks for the free pass. I can see despite your knowledge on the subjects you must be very frustrated arguing with theists, which causes you to try and use personal attacks completely irrelevant to what i've said. I came from an unbiased perspective just wanting to discuss a frame of thought. I wasn't trying to argue with you on whether or not god exists.

I'm sorry you've misunderstood my intentions and appreciate the input anyways.
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:22:23 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:18:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:11:53 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:06:57 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/21/2014 11:52:44 PM, Dennybug wrote:
When we're in controlled environments we can dismiss god very easily because faith in god isnt needed.

god isn't needed.

fix'd that for ya.

you've completely misunderstood my post. It's not discussing people in situations that don't need god.

It's discussing people in situations so out of their control that need god.

And as Beastt told you their need is filled by their imagination.

god isn't needed.


are you beast? Have you looked at my response?

You have no idea whats being discussed, clearly. And you're trying to derail this to become a IS GOD REAL discussion, which it isnt.

Watch the new poster slowly realize that he is speaking to a Troll.

I can see despite your knowledge on the subjects you must be very frustrated arguing with theists, which causes you to try and use personal attacks completely irrelevant to what i've said. I came from an unbiased perspective just wanting to discuss a frame of thought.

Only two posts in, our naive poster figures bully is very frustrated, uses personal attacks, and posts stuff completely irrelevant to what [has been said]. Wow.

I wasn't trying to argue with you on whether or not god exists.

Well Dennybug, just like how conspiracy theorists always bring everything back to their personal obsession, some atheists here cannot debate anything else. If you post that you really like angel food cake, one of them will launch into how there aren't any angels. If you try to discuss whether people have souls or not, they will accuse you of having a Christian agenda and try to prove, you guessed it, that God doesn't exist.

Think of them like houseflies. You can't eradicate them, so you have to live with them. Just don't let them in your house.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dennybug
Posts: 711
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6/25/2014 10:31:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.

If you aren't convinced yet, I encourage you to watch this video. It's a real gay demon. This will surely convince you of the power of christ through man.

I know if you watch this you will confess your sins and accept jesus into your heart because it is such powerful media.

Praying for you my dear friend - Love, Dennis.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/25/2014 2:27:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 10:31:08 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.



If you aren't convinced yet, I encourage you to watch this video. It's a real gay demon. This will surely convince you of the power of christ through man.

I know if you watch this you will confess your sins and accept jesus into your heart because it is such powerful media.

Praying for you my dear friend - Love, Dennis.

Little boy go back to your leggo's you are not ready for reality. And slap your parents senseless for making you such a retard.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dennybug
Posts: 711
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6/25/2014 2:28:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 2:27:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:31:08 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.



If you aren't convinced yet, I encourage you to watch this video. It's a real gay demon. This will surely convince you of the power of christ through man.

I know if you watch this you will confess your sins and accept jesus into your heart because it is such powerful media.

Praying for you my dear friend - Love, Dennis.

Little boy go back to your leggo's you are not ready for reality. And slap your parents senseless for making you such a retard.

The gay demons will possess us all with that attitude sir! We must confess to expel the gay demons. ALLAH WILL SMITE US
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/25/2014 2:33:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 2:28:35 PM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 2:27:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:31:08 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.



If you aren't convinced yet, I encourage you to watch this video. It's a real gay demon. This will surely convince you of the power of christ through man.

I know if you watch this you will confess your sins and accept jesus into your heart because it is such powerful media.

Praying for you my dear friend - Love, Dennis.

Little boy go back to your leggo's you are not ready for reality. And slap your parents senseless for making you such a retard.

The gay demons will possess us all with that attitude sir! We must confess to expel the gay demons. ALLAH WILL SMITE US

Tell me where you live and I'll come slap your parents.
Call child services right now.
But be careful of the boogeyman.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dennybug
Posts: 711
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6/25/2014 2:36:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 2:33:56 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 2:28:35 PM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 2:27:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:31:08 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.



If you aren't convinced yet, I encourage you to watch this video. It's a real gay demon. This will surely convince you of the power of christ through man.

I know if you watch this you will confess your sins and accept jesus into your heart because it is such powerful media.

Praying for you my dear friend - Love, Dennis.

Little boy go back to your leggo's you are not ready for reality. And slap your parents senseless for making you such a retard.

The gay demons will possess us all with that attitude sir! We must confess to expel the gay demons. ALLAH WILL SMITE US

Tell me where you live and I'll come slap your parents.
Call child services right now.
But be careful of the boogeyman.

I'm waiting for my 72 virgins. I can endure this indoctrination for 72 virgins.

Allah Akbur.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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6/25/2014 2:39:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/25/2014 2:36:56 PM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 2:33:56 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 2:28:35 PM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 2:27:11 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:31:08 AM, Dennybug wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:24:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/25/2014 10:13:41 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Here we have one of the poorest cowards on here trying to pretend that he has some meaning.
Poor little thang needs to boost his self esteem by his pathetic attempts at denigrating the HUMANS on this site.
Yes, you and I know it's pathetic, but the poor christian cowards don't possess the capacity for courage.

Their god tells them to be as disgusting as they can possibly be. Courage is beyond the religious.
Sad really.



If you aren't convinced yet, I encourage you to watch this video. It's a real gay demon. This will surely convince you of the power of christ through man.

I know if you watch this you will confess your sins and accept jesus into your heart because it is such powerful media.

Praying for you my dear friend - Love, Dennis.

Little boy go back to your leggo's you are not ready for reality. And slap your parents senseless for making you such a retard.

The gay demons will possess us all with that attitude sir! We must confess to expel the gay demons. ALLAH WILL SMITE US

Tell me where you live and I'll come slap your parents.
Call child services right now.
But be careful of the boogeyman.

I'm waiting for my 72 virgins. I can endure this indoctrination for 72 virgins.
That would make 73, what a waste of time.
Allah Akbur.
Learn to spell.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin