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Atheist vs. Theist

LostintheEcho1498
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6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,112
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6/22/2014 1:44:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

There is no evidence for the existence of any god. Therefore, I choose not to deceive myself. I fault no one for believing in a god (since this was a position I had myself for 35 years), but I cannot do it myself (any longer). Also, if valid objective evidence were to be found for a god, then my position would no longer be valid. Until then, I will stick to my agnostic atheism.
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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
POPOO5560
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6/22/2014 2:25:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

Evidence cames from the scriptures of any religion, as a muslim why i believe in the quran? Because it has many stuff that cant be known at that time. Regardless to religion i cant believe that the universe is so perfect and working in order while you telling me it came by it self it doesnt make any sense for example range between the earth and the sun is so perfect that little change of it will cause all life to ruin and the athiest telling my that it came by chance yeah sure...
Never fart near dog
Skepticalone
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6/22/2014 3:21:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 2:25:42 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

Evidence cames from the scriptures of any religion, as a muslim why i believe in the quran? Because it has many stuff that cant be known at that time. Regardless to religion i cant believe that the universe is so perfect and working in order while you telling me it came by it self it doesnt make any sense for example range between the earth and the sun is so perfect that little change of it will cause all life to ruin and the athiest telling my that it came by chance yeah sure..

You cannot use religious scriptures written by anonymous people who were 'inspired by god' to prove god. It is a circular argument. As far as the universe being perfect, well, it's not. We can only live on the Earth to our knowledge. The vast majority of the universe is inhospitable to human life. We have verifiable evidence life is adaptable to its environment, and no evidence the universe adapts to life. It is true, we don't exactly know how the universe came to be, but it is an argument from ignorance to assume since we can't explain it, and that it must be a god.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/22/2014 6:10:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 3:21:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/22/2014 2:25:42 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

Evidence cames from the scriptures of any religion, as a muslim why i believe in the quran? Because it has many stuff that cant be known at that time. Regardless to religion i cant believe that the universe is so perfect and working in order while you telling me it came by it self it doesnt make any sense for example range between the earth and the sun is so perfect that little change of it will cause all life to ruin and the athiest telling my that it came by chance yeah sure..

You cannot use religious scriptures written by anonymous people who were 'inspired by god' to prove god. It is a circular argument. As far as the universe being perfect, well, it's not. We can only live on the Earth to our knowledge. The vast majority of the universe is inhospitable to human life. We have verifiable evidence life is adaptable to its environment, and no evidence the universe adapts to life. It is true, we don't exactly know how the universe came to be, but it is an argument from ignorance to assume since we can't explain it, and that it must be a god.

The universe is not perfect? Every little thing of change will ruin life, you know what i mean yeah? Everything depends on each other. From the little atoms to the vast vaccum out there. And you telling me it was by chance? You can play with it in anything. Maybe tomorow some baboon will come to your home and say to you 'please give me food'. There is a chance for that too.
If the Quran says its a revelation and gives you information that not known on that time and there is no natural explanation why not cosider what its claim is true?
And its not the god of the gaps we have strong reasons.
Never fart near dog
merbear2536
Posts: 35
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6/22/2014 6:56:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I believe that atheists believe what they do simply because they want to. The evidence points towards theism and I believe the Bible most accurately portrays reality. But atheists ignore the truth because once you accept a God, then you also accept a Judge with "rules" to follow. People dont like that so they tune out everything that they dont like. If they would truly understand then they are so much rules but more like a training manual. Ill grant it this is not the only reason but I think it is a big one.

To all the atheists out there: If you believe there is no scientific evidence for God, the you are right. Because science deals with the natural world and God is supernatural. But, We can use science to observe and with science we have found that some type of miracle must have happened(big bang, Creation, etc.). Atheists just rule out the supernatural from the beginning so they dont even give God a chance. If you would like to read more I highly suggest reading "I Dont Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist" by Randy Geisler and Frank Turek.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/22/2014 7:50:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 6:10:49 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 3:21:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/22/2014 2:25:42 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:

Regardless to religion i cant believe that the universe is so perfect and working in order while you telling me it came by it self it doesnt make any sense for example range between the earth and the sun is so perfect that little change of it will cause all life to ruin and the athiest telling my that it came by chance yeah sure..

As far as the universe being perfect, well, it's not. We can only live on the Earth to our knowledge. The vast majority of the universe is inhospitable to human life. We have verifiable evidence life is adaptable to its environment, and no evidence the universe adapts to life. It is true, we don't exactly know how the universe came to be, but it is an argument from ignorance to assume since we can't explain it, and that it must be a god.

The universe is not perfect? Every little thing of change will ruin life, you know what i mean yeah? Everything depends on each other. From the little atoms to the vast vaccum out there. And you telling me it was by chance? You can play with it in anything. Maybe tomorow some baboon will come to your home and say to you 'please give me food'. There is a chance for that too.

Being just good enough isn't the same as being perfect. Also perfection is subjective. Also it's a false dilemma to say "either God or chance". If it was a very hot day, and a bush fire occurred, would you say that the bush set on fire "by pure chance"?
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AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2014 7:52:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've never believed in deities and see no reason to do so.
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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6/22/2014 9:36:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.
I used to be a professed atheist, but in retrospect I don't think I really was.

In my opinion, there are very few atheists who believe in an actual impossibility of a God/god/creator in terms of first cause. That a God/god/creator could not have been responsible for the spark that brought the universe into existence. The disbelief generally has more to do with the various proclamations, testimonies, and actions from other humans.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/22/2014 10:06:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

There is no evidence for there being a god. There is no need for a god to exist. Because of those two things it becomes logical to become an agnostic atheist. People will say that their scripture has stuff in it that could not have been known at the time, but that is a horrible argument. For everything a scripture gets right it gets a lot more wrong. I can list 1000 things that we do not know yet and probably get a couple of them right, does that make me divine?
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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6/22/2014 10:11:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 1:44:49 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

There is no evidence for the existence of any god. Therefore, I choose not to deceive myself. I fault no one for believing in a god (since this was a position I had myself for 35 years), but I cannot do it myself (any longer). Also, if valid objective evidence were to be found for a god, then my position would no longer be valid. Until then, I will stick to my agnostic atheism.

This is my position as well, minus the part about once believing in a god. I've been an atheist my whole life, but I'd change my (lack of) belief in the face of some actual evidence.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/22/2014 10:14:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 6:56:10 AM, merbear2536 wrote:
I believe that atheists believe what they do simply because they want to. The evidence points towards theism

What real evidence points towards theism?

and I believe the Bible most accurately portrays reality.

The world is way older than 6000 years, Noah's flood did not happen, the Exodus did not happen, none of the NT was written by an eye-witness so who knows if any of the gospels are close to what happened, etc, etc. Bible is REALLY far from accurate.

But atheists ignore the truth because once you accept a God, then you also accept a Judge with "rules" to follow. People dont like that so they tune out everything that they dont like. If they would truly understand then they are so much rules but more like a training manual. Ill grant it this is not the only reason but I think it is a big one.

I find this laughable. Almost every atheist I know wants to know the truth and follows the evidence. There is no real evidence that points towards theism.

To all the atheists out there: If you believe there is no scientific evidence for God, the you are right. Because science deals with the natural world and God is supernatural.

Yet, when a god supposedly makes an action in the real world that action would leave evidence behind. We also have no reason to believe the supernatural even exists.

But, We can use science to observe and with science we have found that some type of miracle must have happened(big bang, Creation, etc.).

Big Bang is not a miracle, there is no evidence of religious creation, etc.

Atheists just rule out the supernatural from the beginning so they dont even give God a chance.

No, we want a reason to believe in the supernatural. The universe works without invoking the supernatural, the universe makes sense without the need of the supernatural. When you apply Occam's Razor you see no reason to believe in the supernatural.

If you would like to read more I highly suggest reading "I Dont Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist" by Randy Geisler and Frank Turek.

I have read that book. It is full of fallacies, misrepresentations, etc.
Mhykiel
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6/22/2014 10:32:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 6:56:10 AM, merbear2536 wrote:
I believe that atheists believe what they do simply because they want to. The evidence points towards theism and I believe the Bible most accurately portrays reality. But atheists ignore the truth because once you accept a God, then you also accept a Judge with "rules" to follow. People dont like that so they tune out everything that they dont like. If they would truly understand then they are so much rules but more like a training manual. Ill grant it this is not the only reason but I think it is a big one.

To all the atheists out there: If you believe there is no scientific evidence for God, the you are right. Because science deals with the natural world and God is supernatural. But, We can use science to observe and with science we have found that some type of miracle must have happened(big bang, Creation, etc.). Atheists just rule out the supernatural from the beginning so they dont even give God a chance. If you would like to read more I highly suggest reading "I Dont Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist" by Randy Geisler and Frank Turek.

I think when an event is astronomically infinitesimally near impossible, and it happens I call that a miracle. So for me the emergence of universe and life count.

My personal experience is probably worth very little to others, but to me it is the clincher. After looking at the world, the fundamentals, the way a slew of things work, I was close to a believe in God, like a watchmaker or agnostic. But personal experience showed me, God is a personal God.

I know a lot of people ask for some kind of evidence or scientific discovery. I don't think they require even half that stuff of a financial investor, mechanic, friends, family, claims from a science book, etc...

But, when it comes to God, seems the rules get strict. Seems the words change meaning, and seems the goal post keeps moving.

For one a ideology of only physical things is wrong. But even if you accept it and fold in all the wired stuff that happens in this world, Then God IS totally possible. Not supernatural impossible. BUT naturally possible.

For this I think the simplest evidence is that we can make choices. I'm not talking about the half mindless choices we make that are spurred more by environment and genetics. I mean when you look at a situation, up bringing and genes all telling you to do something, and with a determined thought out, willful expression, do something else. Those kind of choices. Are simple yet amazing evidence for a God.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/22/2014 11:27:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

I'm a theist because I feel that there is a God. Maybe I even want there to be a God.

Of course, this isn't even remotely a rational justification for the existence of a god. Which is why I think that atheism is the most rationally sound position.
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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6/22/2014 11:42:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Current atheist, however I used to be a true Christian (or Scotsman, if you know the reference).

At church I was told of a God of love, yet all the evidence I saw was of the opposite. My time of faith pretty much concluded with getting insulted and stolen from by one too many people at church, the final one actually tried to get me to kill myself if it meant they could get more money. When in spiritual crisis, the church office (large church, with no staffing issues) did not think I was worth returning a phone call.

Christians believe people are a reflection of God, yet even at church that reflection was too often one of evil. ... However paranoid belief in a Sky Bully, did me absolutely no good. I really don't need any more scars, therefore I don't believe.
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Skepticalone
Posts: 6,112
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6/22/2014 11:50:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 6:10:49 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 3:21:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/22/2014 2:25:42 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

Evidence cames from the scriptures of any religion, as a muslim why i believe in the quran? Because it has many stuff that cant be known at that time. Regardless to religion i cant believe that the universe is so perfect and working in order while you telling me it came by it self it doesnt make any sense for example range between the earth and the sun is so perfect that little change of it will cause all life to ruin and the athiest telling my that it came by chance yeah sure..

You cannot use religious scriptures written by anonymous people who were 'inspired by god' to prove god. It is a circular argument. As far as the universe being perfect, well, it's not. We can only live on the Earth to our knowledge. The vast majority of the universe is inhospitable to human life. We have verifiable evidence life is adaptable to its environment, and no evidence the universe adapts to life. It is true, we don't exactly know how the universe came to be, but it is an argument from ignorance to assume since we can't explain it, and that it must be a god.

The universe is not perfect? Every little thing of change will ruin life, you know what i mean yeah? Everything depends on each other. From the little atoms to the vast vaccum out there. And you telling me it was by chance? You can play with it in anything. Maybe tomorow some baboon will come to your home and say to you 'please give me food'. There is a chance for that too.

Again, this is an argument from ignorance. Not understanding how it is possible (chance) does not lead to the existence of a god. Plus, as I stated before, life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around. The environment can be represented by a pothole and life can be represented by water in the pothole.

If the Quran says its a revelation and gives you information that not known on that time and there is no natural explanation why not cosider what its claim is true?
And its not the god of the gaps we have strong reasons.

I'm no expert on the Quran, but I can point out the flaws in your argument without knowing what is in it.

'How do you know the Quran is the ultimate authority of God?' "Because God said so" 'How did you get God's word?' "In the Quran".

It's a circular argument and is invalid. So,it really doesn't matter what is in the Quran or how it is interpreted, it is not proof of any god.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Fatihah
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6/22/2014 12:39:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 12:51:24 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
To explain the Atheist vs. Theist:
I wish to have people speak about why atheists take the position they do opposed to theists, and the other way around. I am curious to see why people have chosen their current position and the effects it has.

Response: In the case of creation by chance vs creation by Intelligent Design, the evidence is more logical and favors intelligent Design. For you yourself nor any person, can create order without choosing to do so first. That is why when we contemplate on the sophistication and order in the universe and life itself, the evidence supports that it all originated from an Intelligent Designer.

The only question now becomes who and what the Intelligent Designer is. Meaning what are the attributes of this creator. And when I turn to the religious scriptures as to who this Designer is, only Islam answers the question logically and with evidence that the Designer is none other than Allah. For the Qur'an itself has no errors or discrepancies, and has within it guidance, with no indecencies or immorality. That means the author of it is truthful and reliable. And because of the miracle of the Qur'an in that it cannot be duplicated, then it serves as further proof of its divine origin. So for these reasons, I am a theist and accept Islam as the true religion.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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6/22/2014 2:57:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wow I put this up at midnight last night, woke up, went to church, came back and found quite a few postings. Most successful post I have had. Now to put in my own reasoning as to my position.
I am a Mormon. To not use the nickname I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I have looked many times over at the ideas of God, how it relates to us, and what place we and God would have. I have concluded several things. One, no matter what we think there has to be something or someone that put us here. The chances of human existence without a creator is so ridiculously small it makes the chances for a black hole starting in the center of the Earth an everyday occurrence. Thus, I can logically conclude that there is a deity of some sort that created us. To determine who that deity might be we look at scripture. If we look at the Bible there are several areas with which I honestly do not agree with. My personal belief is a lost in translation theory I have. The Bible has been translated, changed, and re-translated many times over and counting the fact the Hebrew language is different. For example:
Luke 22:44 King James Bible
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
When translated directly to Hebrew it says that he sweat blood, not sweat as blood.

This is probably the most stress any human has ever felt. He had to have been under such great stress that his body would be shutting down enough for the blood vessels to pop and cause his whole body to bleed. This is so far beyond human comprehension of pain that we cannot actually survive to this level of stress. Anyway, I digress. Back to what I was saying. To see if God exists there is a member of the Godhead for this specific purpose. His name we do not know or, if in fact, he is a he, but he is commonly known as the Holy Ghost. His entire purpose is to testify of truth. Whether or not you have received this is not my business but I can know for myself if I have. Now I know that there is a God, the type of God he is, and I need to see what the purpose here would be. The most blunt answer is three things. One, to get a body. Two, to be tested. Three, to gain a wife, have children, and be sealed to them for time and all eternity. As spirits, we had progressed as far as possible and the only way to continue this progression was to gain a body similar to our Heavenly Father. Then we needed to be tested of worthiness of which is why we have our least favorite brother Satan. His sole purpose in life is to try to make us as miserable as he is. We are to do our best to avoid and deny his temptations and gain entrance to heaven. The last is the most sacred commandment. To find a partner for all eternity and have children to spend the rest of time with. As these things are the main answers to my life, my existence, and why I am here I can live peacefully knowing that there is somewhere after here to which we all will go.
POPOO5560
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6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:50:07 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Again, this is an argument from ignorance. Not understanding how it is possible (chance) does not lead to the existence of a god. Plus, as I stated before, life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around. The environment can be represented by a pothole and life can be represented by water in the pothole.

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

About life you are wrong. how " life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around.", so why only earth has life and all the others places you can imagine dont have it?? you know how many planets out there?? limitless... this earth is desinged with spcifice order to contain life in anyway you can imagine, from the sun,earth,moon,water,temp,surface dont need to continue.....

If the Quran says its a revelation and gives you information that not known on that time and there is no natural explanation why not cosider what its claim is true?
And its not the god of the gaps we have strong reasons.

I'm no expert on the Quran, but I can point out the flaws in your argument without knowing what is in it.

'How do you know the Quran is the ultimate authority of God?' "Because God said so" 'How did you get God's word?' "In the Quran".

no we muslims are not believe in blind faith its not because "God said so" we have reasons, the Quran encourage rationality and precisely empiricism which is science through out the Quran, if you didnt read it, you wont know what i talking about...

It's a circular argument and is invalid. So,it really doesn't matter what is in the Quran or how it is interpreted, it is not proof of any god.

Quran full of proofs in different ways. here 2 examples:

1) Quran 21:30-
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

What this verse reminding you? the big bang, and the second part says "made from water every living thing", today we know all life began in water from evulotion and every living things have water in their cells or in their bodies its necessary.

2) here historical miracle:
In the Quran in the story of joseph peace be upon him, the ruler of the egyptians is mentioned by the name "King". when its talks about Moses pbuh, its mentions (name of the ruler of the egyptians) by "Pharaoh" not "King". well today after decipher egyptian hieroglyphics, we know that in the middle kingdom era, they called their rulers by the name "King" which is time of joseph pbuh, and in the era of new kingdom which is the time of Moses pbuh, the ruler mentioed by the name "Pharaoh". the bible got it wrong, its mentions only "Pharaoh" for all times (in the times of Abraham,Moses and Joseph pbut. so if the prophet Muhamed pnuh copied it, it would take the same mistake.
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AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2014 5:21:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

Why should the cause "have a will to create"? Is it chance that water flows downhill or does gravity have a will to pull it in?
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POPOO5560
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6/22/2014 6:06:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 5:21:24 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

Why should the cause "have a will to create"? Is it chance that water flows downhill or does gravity have a will to pull it in?

because to bering something to existence must have a cause, if its not of some "will", its a chance, and bro by chance something doesnt come from nothing. and about the water flows and downhill or gravity its a Laws of the universe, for example, lets say you throwing a coin, it has 2 sides - one tree and the other car. if you know all your information on your environment like gravity, height, velocity, the wind, temprature etc.. i mean if you know all that info, there is no chance, you will know what the outcome, because you have laws and you know the limits. but in the beginning of something, its not a chance because you dont have that compounds or laws.
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AlbinoBunny
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6/22/2014 6:20:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 6:06:59 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 5:21:24 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

Why should the cause "have a will to create"? Is it chance that water flows downhill or does gravity have a will to pull it in?

because to bering something to existence must have a cause, if its not of some "will", its a chance,

What do you actually know about bringing things "into existence"? And how did you come about this knowledge?

and bro by chance something doesnt come from nothing. and about the water flows and downhill or gravity its a Laws of the universe, for example, lets say you throwing a coin, it has 2 sides - one tree and the other car. if you know all your information on your environment like gravity, height, velocity, the wind, temprature etc.. i mean if you know all that info, there is no chance, you will know what the outcome, because you have laws and you know the limits. but in the beginning of something, its not a chance because you dont have that compounds or laws.

Prove that you don't have some law? I don't see how you can claim that laws don't exist but a "will" does. How would "chance" or "will" even create anything without some sort of "law"?
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Skepticalone
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6/22/2014 9:18:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 11:50:07 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Again, this is an argument from ignorance. Not understanding how it is possible (chance) does not lead to the existence of a god. Plus, as I stated before, life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around. The environment can be represented by a pothole and life can be represented by water in the pothole.

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

No, that has not been established.

About life you are wrong. how " life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around.", so why only earth has life and all the others places you can imagine dont have it?? you know how many planets out there?? limitless... this earth is desinged with spcifice order to contain life in anyway you can imagine, from the sun,earth,moon,water,temp,surface dont need to continue.....

We have landed on 3 planets (if you count Jupiter as a landing), 3 moons, 2 asteroids, and 1 comet and most landings were accidental crash landings or intentional impactors. Information of extraterrestrial bodies in our own solar system is very limited, and practically non existent for other solar systems and galaxies especially when considering the possibility of life. If you choose to believe there is no life anywhere in the universe (except for Earth), I would be inclined to say your conclusion is premature. Lack of information is not evidence for. That is why your argument is an argument from ignorance.

If the Quran says its a revelation and gives you information that not known on that time and there is no natural explanation why not cosider what its claim is true?
And its not the god of the gaps we have strong reasons.

I'm no expert on the Quran, but I can point out the flaws in your argument without knowing what is in it.

'How do you know the Quran is the ultimate authority of God?' "Because God said so" 'How did you get God's word?' "In the Quran".

no we muslims are not believe in blind faith its not because "God said so" we have reasons, the Quran encourage rationality and precisely empiricism which is science through out the Quran, if you didnt read it, you wont know what i talking about...

Ok, how do you know the Quran is the word of god?

It's a circular argument and is invalid. So,it really doesn't matter what is in the Quran or how it is interpreted, it is not proof of any god.

Quran full of proofs in different ways. here 2 examples:

1) Quran 21:30-
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

What this verse reminding you? the big bang, and the second part says "made from water every living thing", today we know all life began in water from evulotion and every living things have water in their cells or in their bodies its necessary.

Actually, it does not remind me of the Big Bang. I will admit I am not familiar with this verse and the interpretation of it, so I will give it the benefit of a doubt, but I am leaning towards confirmation bias on your part.

2) here historical miracle:
In the Quran in the story of joseph peace be upon him, the ruler of the egyptians is mentioned by the name "King". when its talks about Moses pbuh, its mentions (name of the ruler of the egyptians) by "Pharaoh" not "King". well today after decipher egyptian hieroglyphics, we know that in the middle kingdom era, they called their rulers by the name "King" which is time of joseph pbuh, and in the era of new kingdom which is the time of Moses pbuh, the ruler mentioed by the name "Pharaoh". the bible got it wrong, its mentions only "Pharaoh" for all times (in the times of Abraham,Moses and Joseph pbut. so if the prophet Muhamed pnuh copied it, it would take the same mistake.

This would suggests parts of the Quran may be historical (the same could be said for the Bible). I have no argument with this. Having some parts that may be historical is not evidence for god. Raiders of the Lost Ark contains historically accurate information, yet this is not evidence Indiana Jones was a real person.
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POPOO5560
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6/23/2014 10:18:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 9:18:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 11:50:07 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Again, this is an argument from ignorance. Not understanding how it is possible (chance) does not lead to the existence of a god. Plus, as I stated before, life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around. The environment can be represented by a pothole and life can be represented by water in the pothole.

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

No, that has not been established.

Why im some "will" because at some point in time it began to exist, because you cant have infinite history, its not making sense. for example you have humans.. it must have a beginning... everybody have it an finite history, then is was time zero and no scape, some cause must be began it, but from nothing not matter how many years you wait it would be nothing, so it must have a will to chose it in this way.


About life you are wrong. how " life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around.", so why only earth has life and all the others places you can imagine dont have it?? you know how many planets out there?? limitless... this earth is desinged with spcifice order to contain life in anyway you can imagine, from the sun,earth,moon,water,temp,surface dont need to continue.....

We have landed on 3 planets (if you count Jupiter as a landing), 3 moons, 2 asteroids, and 1 comet and most landings were accidental crash landings or intentional impactors. Information of extraterrestrial bodies in our own solar system is very limited, and practically non existent for other solar systems and galaxies especially when considering the possibility of life. If you choose to believe there is no life anywhere in the universe (except for Earth), I would be inclined to say your conclusion is premature. Lack of information is not evidence for. That is why your argument is an argument from ignorance.

In our knowledge the life only exist in our earth, we dont know what going in outer scape there... but for life there are a conditions to be able to survive or exist. and that very precise. if you take 1 condition there wouldnt be a life at all, you know how many stuff there?? i cant believe it was all by chance, if you believe so good for you.


If the Quran says its a revelation and gives you information that not known on that time and there is no natural explanation why not cosider what its claim is true?
And its not the god of the gaps we have strong reasons.

I'm no expert on the Quran, but I can point out the flaws in your argument without knowing what is in it.

'How do you know the Quran is the ultimate authority of God?' "Because God said so" 'How did you get God's word?' "In the Quran".

no we muslims are not believe in blind faith its not because "God said so" we have reasons, the Quran encourage rationality and precisely empiricism which is science through out the Quran, if you didnt read it, you wont know what i talking about...

Ok, how do you know the Quran is the word of god?

There are many stuff in the Quran shows for information that couldnt exist at the time, today we discover things.


It's a circular argument and is invalid. So,it really doesn't matter what is in the Quran or how it is interpreted, it is not proof of any god.

Quran full of proofs in different ways. here 2 examples:

1) Quran 21:30-
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

What this verse reminding you? the big bang, and the second part says "made from water every living thing", today we know all life began in water from evulotion and every living things have water in their cells or in their bodies its necessary.

Actually, it does not remind me of the Big Bang. I will admit I am not familiar with this verse and the interpretation of it, so I will give it the benefit of a doubt, but I am leaning towards confirmation bias on your part.

well thats reminds me the big bang, its not my interpretation, its very similar to the big bang and the water stuff there.


2) here historical miracle:
In the Quran in the story of joseph peace be upon him, the ruler of the egyptians is mentioned by the name "King". when its talks about Moses pbuh, its mentions (name of the ruler of the egyptians) by "Pharaoh" not "King". well today after decipher egyptian hieroglyphics, we know that in the middle kingdom era, they called their rulers by the name "King" which is time of joseph pbuh, and in the era of new kingdom which is the time of Moses pbuh, the ruler mentioed by the name "Pharaoh". the bible got it wrong, its mentions only "Pharaoh" for all times (in the times of Abraham,Moses and Joseph pbut. so if the prophet Muhamed pnuh copied it, it would take the same mistake.

This would suggests parts of the Quran may be historical (the same could be said for the Bible). I have no argument with this. Having some parts that may be historical is not evidence for god. Raiders of the Lost Ark contains historically accurate information, yet this is not evidence Indiana Jones was a real person.

Its not about that is has some historical stuff, what is importent it has information that now known and cant be known at the time, this one is an example what i mean... there are many other things in the Quran that cant dismiss...
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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6/23/2014 10:20:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 10:18:34 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 9:18:55 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 6/22/2014 5:13:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/22/2014 11:50:07 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Again, this is an argument from ignorance. Not understanding how it is possible (chance) does not lead to the existence of a god. Plus, as I stated before, life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around. The environment can be represented by a pothole and life can be represented by water in the pothole.

This is not an argument from ignorance. its you dont believe that the universe came from chance, its must be brought in to being and the cause should have a will to create.

No, that has not been established.

Why im some "will" because at some point in time it began to exist, because you cant have infinite history, its not making sense. for example you have humans.. it must have a beginning... everybody have it an finite history, then is was time zero and no scape, some cause must be began it, but from nothing not matter how many years you wait it would be nothing, so it must have a will to chose it in this way.


About life you are wrong. how " life is adaptable to environment, not the other way around.", so why only earth has life and all the others places you can imagine dont have it?? you know how many planets out there?? limitless... this earth is desinged with spcifice order to contain life in anyway you can imagine, from the sun,earth,moon,water,temp,surface dont need to continue.....

We have landed on 3 planets (if you count Jupiter as a landing), 3 moons, 2 asteroids, and 1 comet and most landings were accidental crash landings or intentional impactors. Information of extraterrestrial bodies in our own solar system is very limited, and practically non existent for other solar systems and galaxies especially when considering the possibility of life. If you choose to believe there is no life anywhere in the universe (except for Earth), I would be inclined to say your conclusion is premature. Lack of information is not evidence for. That is why your argument is an argument from ignorance.

In our knowledge the life only exist in our earth, we dont know what going in outer scape there... but for life there are a conditions to be able to survive or exist. and that very precise. if you take 1 condition there wouldnt be a life at all, you know how many stuff there?? i cant believe it was all by chance, if you believe so good for you.


If the Quran says its a revelation and gives you information that not known on that time and there is no natural explanation why not cosider what its claim is true?
And its not the god of the gaps we have strong reasons.

I'm no expert on the Quran, but I can point out the flaws in your argument without knowing what is in it.

'How do you know the Quran is the ultimate authority of God?' "Because God said so" 'How did you get God's word?' "In the Quran".

no we muslims are not believe in blind faith its not because "God said so" we have reasons, the Quran encourage rationality and precisely empiricism which is science through out the Quran, if you didnt read it, you wont know what i talking about...

Ok, how do you know the Quran is the word of god?

There are many stuff in the Quran shows for information that couldnt exist at the time, today we discover things.


It's a circular argument and is invalid. So,it really doesn't matter what is in the Quran or how it is interpreted, it is not proof of any god.

Quran full of proofs in different ways. here 2 examples:

1) Quran 21:30-
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

What this verse reminding you? the big bang, and the second part says "made from water every living thing", today we know all life began in water from evulotion and every living things have water in their cells or in their bodies its necessary.

Actually, it does not remind me of the Big Bang. I will admit I am not familiar with this verse and the interpretation of it, so I will give it the benefit of a doubt, but I am leaning towards confirmation bias on your part.

well thats reminds me the big bang, its not my interpretation, its very similar to the big bang and the water stuff there.


2) here historical miracle:
In the Quran in the story of joseph peace be upon him, the ruler of the egyptians is mentioned by the name "King". when its talks about Moses pbuh, its mentions (name of the ruler of the egyptians) by "Pharaoh" not "King". well today after decipher egyptian hieroglyphics, we know that in the middle kingdom era, they called their rulers by the name "King" which is time of joseph pbuh, and in the era of new kingdom which is the time of Moses pbuh, the ruler mentioed by the name "Pharaoh". the bible got it wrong, its mentions only "Pharaoh" for all times (in the times of Abraham,Moses and Joseph pbut. so if the prophet Muhamed pnuh copied it, it would take the same mistake.

This would suggests parts of the Quran may be historical (the same could be said for the Bible). I have no argument with this. Having some parts that may be historical is not evidence for god. Raiders of the Lost Ark contains historically accurate information, yet this is not evidence Indiana Jones was a real person.

Its not about that it has some historical stuff, what is importent it has information that not** known and cant be known at the time, this one is an example what i mean... there are many other things in the Quran that cant dismiss...
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rstrats
Posts: 79
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6/23/2014 1:14:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
merbear2536,

re: "... atheists ignore the truth because once you accept a God, then you also accept a Judge with 'rules' to follow. People dont like that so they tune out everything that they dont like."

Very much like a goodly number of theists who tune out the 10 commandments, dietary rules, and annual festivals.