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Trying to Find God

1HUNNA
Posts: 11
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6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God? Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being? How will I know for certain that I have found God? Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God, and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?
Fatihah
Posts: 7,732
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6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God? Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being? How will I know for certain that I have found God? Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God, and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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6/22/2014 9:50:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God? Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being? How will I know for certain that I have found God? Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God, and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/22/2014 9:55:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God? Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being? How will I know for certain that I have found God? Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God, and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.

So, if I'm a good person, then I'll know God?

It follows, then, that the only good people are theists, and atheists/agnostics cannot be good people.

How quaint.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/22/2014 10:22:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God? Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being? How will I know for certain that I have found God? Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God, and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?

First of all you need to understand what the word God means.
If you are looking for an imaginary story book character, look in the bible. Fantasy characters are only found in fantasy land.
If you are looking for love, goodness, truth, etc look inside yourself.
If you are looking for someone to judge whether your actions are good or bad, look to your own conscience.
People have difficulty finding God because they have no clue what they are looking for.
To fix their blindness they need to gain an understanding of the difference between the fantasy character God and what the concept means in reality and how they can apply the concept to themselves in reality.
It is much like finding "Santa" within yourself and understanding the character is merely a personification of human characteristics. The concept exists in reality. It is personified in any humans who adopt the concepts.

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

Having a clear conscience is "living in heaven". having a guilty conscience is "living in hell". Heaven and hell are attitudes in which people live. They are not locations.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.


The only thing that might punish you is your own conscience. As long as that is clear you have no reason to fear anything. If you are guilty of anything your own conscience will make you aware of it and you will also know how to fix the problem.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

They are gullible immature people who have no idea that they are deceiving themselves. They are lost in their own fantasies.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

They are not certain of anything at all. They merely put on an act and pretend to be certain. They take the bible literally and have convinced themselves that hell is some location where the evil people in the world and all unbelievers in God will suffer eternal torment.
The ironic thing is that their Jesus even tells believers to depart from him in the parable found in Matthew 7: 21-23. Apparently not even all believers in God or believers in Jesus will end up in heaven. Therefore it makes no difference if you are a believer or unbeliever there is no guarantee that you will end up in heaven.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Why do you wish to be convinced into believing a fantasy?
Facing reality is much more intelligent.
If you know how to listen to your own conscience then you already listen to the ultimate authority within you (God) who tells you if you are innocent or guilty of violating its laws.

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

When people are lost in fantasy land, it is asking them too much to expect them to show you the way in or out of it because they have no clue where to find the entrance and exist. If they did they might be able to find their way back to reality.
Those who live in reality need to show those who are lost in fantasy land, the way back to reality.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/22/2014 10:29:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.

When you life is over you rest in peace in the grave and nothing will ever bother you or hurt you again. You feel and see and know nothing. Any rewards you gain for your action in this life are received in this life not after you die. The joy and peace of knowing you do the right thing is its own reward. Your own conscience will reward or condemn you in this life, not in any life after death. When you are dead you are dead.
1HUNNA
Posts: 11
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6/22/2014 10:42:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.

What are you basing all of this on? Where did you get this information? Through your own personal experience?
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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6/22/2014 10:43:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God? Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being? How will I know for certain that I have found God? Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God, and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

Honestly, you don't want to know God. He's the biggest disappoint that ever lived!

Instead, try to be happy and do good things for the world.

(I know God personally: he communicates with me daily, and, to be truthful, I don't like him.)
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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6/22/2014 10:46:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:29:49 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.

When you life is over you rest in peace in the grave and nothing will ever bother you or hurt you again. You feel and see and know nothing. Any rewards you gain for your action in this life are received in this life not after you die. The joy and peace of knowing you do the right thing is its own reward. Your own conscience will reward or condemn you in this life, not in any life after death. When you are dead you are dead.

I agree with skyangel.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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6/22/2014 10:49:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
To know God is to know the most irresponsible, most disappointing thing that ever existed.

Don't worry about knowing God. There are other things that should priority in your life other than having firm evidence of God.
bulproof
Posts: 25,225
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6/22/2014 10:51:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Apparently, prison is a good place to look.

Many criminals claim to have found god there.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
1HUNNA
Posts: 11
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6/22/2014 10:54:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:22:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
First of all you need to understand what the word God means.
If you are looking for an imaginary story book character, look in the bible. Fantasy characters are only found in fantasy land.
If you are looking for love, goodness, truth, etc look inside yourself.
If you are looking for someone to judge whether your actions are good or bad, look to your own conscience.
People have difficulty finding God because they have no clue what they are looking for.
To fix their blindness they need to gain an understanding of the difference between the fantasy character God and what the concept means in reality and how they can apply the concept to themselves in reality.
It is much like finding "Santa" within yourself and understanding the character is merely a personification of human characteristics. The concept exists in reality. It is personified in any humans who adopt the concepts.

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

Having a clear conscience is "living in heaven". having a guilty conscience is "living in hell". Heaven and hell are attitudes in which people live. They are not locations.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.


The only thing that might punish you is your own conscience. As long as that is clear you have no reason to fear anything. If you are guilty of anything your own conscience will make you aware of it and you will also know how to fix the problem.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

They are gullible immature people who have no idea that they are deceiving themselves. They are lost in their own fantasies.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

They are not certain of anything at all. They merely put on an act and pretend to be certain. They take the bible literally and have convinced themselves that hell is some location where the evil people in the world and all unbelievers in God will suffer eternal torment.
The ironic thing is that their Jesus even tells believers to depart from him in the parable found in Matthew 7: 21-23. Apparently not even all believers in God or believers in Jesus will end up in heaven. Therefore it makes no difference if you are a believer or unbeliever there is no guarantee that you will end up in heaven.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Why do you wish to be convinced into believing a fantasy?
Facing reality is much more intelligent.
If you know how to listen to your own conscience then you already listen to the ultimate authority within you (God) who tells you if you are innocent or guilty of violating its laws.

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

When people are lost in fantasy land, it is asking them too much to expect them to show you the way in or out of it because they have no clue where to find the entrance and exist. If they did they might be able to find their way back to reality.
Those who live in reality need to show those who are lost in fantasy land, the way back to reality.

I am new to the quoting function on this website, so please be aware of this. I am looking for the one true version of God, whomever or whatever that may be. However it appears that there can never be any real way of knowing whether or not God exists other than to have faith. Just because theists cannot prove God exists doesn't mean that He does not, and just because I cannot disprove God doesn't mean that He therefore exists either. Despite this, many will proclaim adamantly His existence, and I seek to know why so that I may make it to heaven and not hell, if such places exist.

You repeatedly mention consciences and how they will essentially lead you in the right direction as it pertains to God. But hypothetically speaking, what if one lacks a conscience?

And, the reason why I'd like to attempt to be talked into a religious belief is so that, if upon my death I come upon the startling realization that a religious God is real, He/She/It cannot say that I did not at least attempt to seek Him/Her/It out prior to shying away from this Being.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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6/22/2014 10:55:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:51:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
Apparently, prison is a good place to look.

Many criminals claim to have found god there.

Prisoners have a relationship with religion, which isn't necessarily bad.

I'm actually referring to the actual God of the universe. He's really not all that great a guy from my personal experience.
1HUNNA
Posts: 11
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6/22/2014 11:00:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Thank you all for your responses. All me to be more clear:

I am looking for religious individuals to try to explain just exactly how I and anyone else who asks may be saved.

Logic tells me that a God likely doesn't exist. It tells me not to fret over such matters as the afterlife, hell, etc. because it likely is none of my concern in the first place. But that doesn't mean that there is no God. Perhaps I am not looking at all of the evidence or am misinterpreting something. So I posit religious individuals to provide me with a step-by-step way of avoiding hell.
1HUNNA
Posts: 11
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6/22/2014 11:02:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:55:34 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:51:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
Apparently, prison is a good place to look.

Many criminals claim to have found god there.

Prisoners have a relationship with religion, which isn't necessarily bad.

I'm actually referring to the actual God of the universe. He's really not all that great a guy from my personal experience.

Can you elaborate further on why God isn't that great a guy to you? Obviously He is a great guy to many, many others.

My thoughts are that either God does not exist or God does not care about existence as He knows it is all irrelevant, but I obviously can be wrong - hence the point of this thread.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/22/2014 11:08:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:54:02 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:22:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
First of all you need to understand what the word God means.
If you are looking for an imaginary story book character, look in the bible. Fantasy characters are only found in fantasy land.
If you are looking for love, goodness, truth, etc look inside yourself.
If you are looking for someone to judge whether your actions are good or bad, look to your own conscience.
People have difficulty finding God because they have no clue what they are looking for.
To fix their blindness they need to gain an understanding of the difference between the fantasy character God and what the concept means in reality and how they can apply the concept to themselves in reality.
It is much like finding "Santa" within yourself and understanding the character is merely a personification of human characteristics. The concept exists in reality. It is personified in any humans who adopt the concepts.

I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.

Having a clear conscience is "living in heaven". having a guilty conscience is "living in hell". Heaven and hell are attitudes in which people live. They are not locations.

What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.


The only thing that might punish you is your own conscience. As long as that is clear you have no reason to fear anything. If you are guilty of anything your own conscience will make you aware of it and you will also know how to fix the problem.

It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.

They are gullible immature people who have no idea that they are deceiving themselves. They are lost in their own fantasies.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.

They are not certain of anything at all. They merely put on an act and pretend to be certain. They take the bible literally and have convinced themselves that hell is some location where the evil people in the world and all unbelievers in God will suffer eternal torment.
The ironic thing is that their Jesus even tells believers to depart from him in the parable found in Matthew 7: 21-23. Apparently not even all believers in God or believers in Jesus will end up in heaven. Therefore it makes no difference if you are a believer or unbeliever there is no guarantee that you will end up in heaven.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them, how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?

Why do you wish to be convinced into believing a fantasy?
Facing reality is much more intelligent.
If you know how to listen to your own conscience then you already listen to the ultimate authority within you (God) who tells you if you are innocent or guilty of violating its laws.

Is this thread asking too much of religious God-fearing peoples?

When people are lost in fantasy land, it is asking them too much to expect them to show you the way in or out of it because they have no clue where to find the entrance and exist. If they did they might be able to find their way back to reality.
Those who live in reality need to show those who are lost in fantasy land, the way back to reality.

I am new to the quoting function on this website, so please be aware of this. I am looking for the one true version of God, whomever or whatever that may be. However it appears that there can never be any real way of knowing whether or not God exists other than to have faith. Just because theists cannot prove God exists doesn't mean that He does not, and just because I cannot disprove God doesn't mean that He therefore exists either. Despite this, many will proclaim adamantly His existence, and I seek to know why so that I may make it to heaven and not hell, if such places exist.

The character God in the bible is a personified version of the human conscience.
Have you discovered your own conscience yet?
Can you prove it exists if someone asks you to prove it exists?
Heaven and hell also exist within you like your conscience does.

You repeatedly mention consciences and how they will essentially lead you in the right direction as it pertains to God. But hypothetically speaking, what if one lacks a conscience?

If one lacks a conscience I guess that they will end up being rejected by society in general and end up being put in some institution for
psychologically or emotionally impaired people.

And, the reason why I'd like to attempt to be talked into a religious belief is so that, if upon my death I come upon the startling realization that a religious God is real, He/She/It cannot say that I did not at least attempt to seek Him/Her/It out prior to shying away from this Being.

If upon your death bed, God happens to reveal himself to you, you can always ask him why he waited so long and did not reveal himself to you earlier. It is up to him to reveal himself to you if he wants you to believe he exists. It is not up to you to try to find him while he plays hide and seek. However, you are free to play the game with the invisible imaginary character if you wish. You can also play the same game with Santa.
You will find them both in your own imagination.
The mind can create all kinds of delusions, dreams, mirages, visions, etc whether you are on your death bed or not.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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6/22/2014 11:15:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:02:30 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:55:34 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:51:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
Apparently, prison is a good place to look.

Many criminals claim to have found god there.

Prisoners have a relationship with religion, which isn't necessarily bad.

I'm actually referring to the actual God of the universe. He's really not all that great a guy from my personal experience.

Can you elaborate further on why God isn't that great a guy to you? Obviously He is a great guy to many, many others.

My thoughts are that either God does not exist or God does not care about existence as He knows it is all irrelevant, but I obviously can be wrong - hence the point of this thread.

I'll make my response quick and easy, Hunna, because I don't want to spend a lot of time elaborating. The reason why I state that God isn't a great guy is because I know the real God . . . I have day-to-day relationship with him. This is going to sound a little weird, I know, and it is weird--but I think it'll demonstrate just how bizarre God is.

I know God personally and he's a devil. Well, he's the devil! In fact, I know God because he uses coincidences (including natural catastrophes were thousands of people have died) to communicate messages to me (and others in my group that know God communicates this way.

He's a ferocious, highly unpleasant God. Occasionally God can communicate a nice message, and I do appreciate these, but frequently his messages are very sad and cold.

The reason why others believe God is a great God is because--(now, this is my position and interpretation)--they don't genuinely know God. The God that's conveyed in religious books isn't a very accurate or honest depiction of the real God, though many of these depictions DO highlight something truthful about God.

But God isn't a loving father who cares about us unconditionally. He can be quite cold and very unmerciful. I've discovered the only we can deal with this knowledge is to accept it and to find other things about life to appreciate.

But that's why I say what I do about God.
BradK
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6/22/2014 11:18:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:
To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God

Evidence?
Composer
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6/22/2014 11:22:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:22:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
If you are looking for love, goodness, truth, etc look inside yourself.
If you are looking for someone to judge whether your actions are good or bad, look to your own conscience.
There was a very interesting theme once in the TV Drama ' The Bill ' (British Police program) which actually disagrees with your sentiments.

It was concerning two young boys who were skylarking in an underground walk-way tunnel on their push-bikes.

One of them ran over an old lady walking through but neither stopped to assist her and fled the scene.

The two boys were identified later and questioned by Police regarding this incident.

The boys were of equal age in years, however only one of them was charged after both being asked " Did you realise that what you did was wrong? ".

One said ' Yes! ' who had simply fled the scene, and was charged by police, whilst the other who actually ran over the old lady, said " No! " and was released without charge, because he was deemed not able to recognise his actions as wrongful!

I found that most interesting!
Juan_Pablo
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6/22/2014 11:25:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The bottom line, Hunna, is this:

we have to be the light, the happiness, and love in this world, because frequently God isn't going to be the source of those. I believe God has intentionally arranged things this way.

We have to be like Jesus. That's our responsibility. God's role appears to be that of a cosmic judge.
civilbuthonest
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6/22/2014 11:30:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll do my best to answer from the perspective of a moderate atheist, who believes it is unlikely that a 'personal God' (one that knows about us, and is able to influence events on earth in an objective way) exists.

At 6/22/2014 8:20:58 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
How did you find God? How should I go about finding God?
I cannot answer that.

Is there anything I can do to guarantee that I find this Being?
I tend to think not. Generally, unless you willing to believe and 'have faith' from the outset, then probably you won't 'find' God. I know I didn't.

How will I know for certain that I have found God?
Noting that you said 'for certain', the answer is you probably won't. Knowing you have found God is subjective.

Lastly, why do you think so many people have difficulty finding God,
I'm biased here of course, but a likely reason is because he does not exist :)

and how should they go about fixing whatever it is that impedes their ability to find Him/Her/It?
I guess the theists could answer that better, but it seems to me that you are looking at things backwards. If it requires belief to gain belief, then be suspicious.


I am indifferent to the concept of heaven. If it's real, then great. But if it isn't, then I really don't care.
There is (as a matter of fact) no objective evidence for heaven. You have to take it on faith.


What I really don't want is to, upon death, be subjected to eternal punishment. I'd rather cease to exist entirely than be subjected to that.
Again, there is no objective evidence that any part of us exists after death, or that any kind of 'punishment' (or anything at all) can be experienced after death. Our bodies decompose, and the organic materials from which we are built return to the earth. That much is fact. Any belief beyond that has to be taken on faith, and there is no objective evidence for it, and I would even go as far as saying that any such belief is unprovable. And on the basis of all that, I am personally not in the slightest worried about what happens to me after death. It seems to me that if God can and does actually DO anything, then we would have seen unambiguous, objective evidence for it by now. So relax and enjoy your life to the full, because we know for certain that that exists. I know what death is like, It is the same as before I existed. I am not in the least scared of it, and have no reason to be.


It fascinates me as to how so many people can be so certain of their belief in a perfect God who would make them and then potentially force them into an abyss for eternity if they don't follow this God.
This is common in many religions, not just Christianity. It's a tried-and-true formula to gain and keep the followers. Promise heaven for the believers, and threaten hell for those that stray, making sure of course that the promises and threats are unprovable. I can't know if that's the real reason, but it certainly makes sense for a successful religion to offer both carrot and stick.

And if they are so certain of this, then I want to know why are they so certain, how can I become so certain, and whether or not this certainty is warranted. This is literally all I want to know.
You can be 'certain' by choosing to believe the Bible, or you can take it on faith, based on your own 'feelings'. Or you could assume that the 'testimony' of hundreds of millions of people can't be wrong, though, it may be wise to look back in history at all the 'silly' superstitious Gods and beliefs that hundreds of millions of people believed in, that we now regard as quaint nonsense. The honest truth is that you cannot be certain either way.

I swear that I am not trying to talk any religious individual out of their beliefs. I'm trying to be talked into theirs. But if their beliefs were so self-evident and real and sound and concrete and viable, then why don't I believe in them ...
Probably the same reason I don't, because the evidence is weak, and almost entirely of a subjective nature. That doesn't prove that it's wrong though. On the topic of whether individual theists have any first hand evidence of an objective nature showing that their God is able to do something, the recently posted topic 'Can YOU show me a miracle' may be of interest.

... how can I fix this, and is it worth fixing?
Why fix what ain't broke? If you seek truth above all, then you need to calmly look at the evidence, without any thoughts of 'wanting' to believe one way or another, which is what 'fixing' it would amount to.

In the end, you have to make the decision that is right for you, and I wish you well in your search.
Skyangel
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6/22/2014 11:43:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:22:26 PM, Composer wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:22:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
If you are looking for love, goodness, truth, etc look inside yourself.
If you are looking for someone to judge whether your actions are good or bad, look to your own conscience.
There was a very interesting theme once in the TV Drama ' The Bill ' (British Police program) which actually disagrees with your sentiments.

It was concerning two young boys who were skylarking in an underground walk-way tunnel on their push-bikes.

One of them ran over an old lady walking through but neither stopped to assist her and fled the scene.

The two boys were identified later and questioned by Police regarding this incident.

The boys were of equal age in years, however only one of them was charged after both being asked " Did you realise that what you did was wrong? ".

One said ' Yes! ' who had simply fled the scene, and was charged by police, whilst the other who actually ran over the old lady, said " No! " and was released without charge, because he was deemed not able to recognise his actions as wrongful!

I found that most interesting!

The moral of the story is that a persons conscience will not "tell" them they are guilty of a crime if they are not aware that their actions are wrong in the first place.
A person's conscience will only make them feel guilty if they are aware that their actions are wrong, socially unacceptable or illegal in the first place.
If you are honestly not aware that something you do is wrong then you will not have a guilty conscience regarding your action.
The drama obviously went to extremes to convey the moral of the story.
If a boy honestly does not know that running over a person is not a good thing to do then that boy needs psychological help.
Fatihah
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6/22/2014 11:56:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 9:55:15 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

So, if I'm a good person, then I'll know God?

It follows, then, that the only good people are theists, and atheists/agnostics cannot be good people.

How quaint.

Response: No. What follows is that it takes a good heart and open mind to know God. And selfishness and lust are attributes that can block a person from seeing God. So if the shoe happens to fit you, then that's your problem.
Fatihah
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6/22/2014 11:57:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:29:49 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.

When you life is over you rest in peace in the grave and nothing will ever bother you or hurt you again. You feel and see and know nothing. Any rewards you gain for your action in this life are received in this life not after you die. The joy and peace of knowing you do the right thing is its own reward. Your own conscience will reward or condemn you in this life, not in any life after death. When you are dead you are dead.

Response: Except that none of that is actually true.
Fatihah
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6/23/2014 12:00:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:42:10 PM, 1HUNNA wrote:
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: Interesting. I say that first you need to agree and understand the purpose of life. For the purpose of life is not satisfy your own desires, your own lust, and personal pleasure. The purpose of life is give. That means to find happiness in making other feel good and happy first, (of course in what is reasonable and just) and making your own lust and desires secondary. That is the purpose of life.

When you fix yourself into doing so, you will know God. You will know the purpose of paradise in the Hereafter and Hell. For you will understand that this life is a test. It is a test to see whether you will sacrifice your own lust and desires and instead focus on what makes others feel good. For that is true love. To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God for what you have given in love, and disciplined for any hurt or injustice caused as the result of your own lust.

What are you basing all of this on? Where did you get this information? Through your own personal experience?

Response: Yes. Through personal experience and backed by Islamic scripture.
Fatihah
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6/23/2014 12:02:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:18:04 PM, BradK wrote:
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:
To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God

Evidence?

Response: Qur'an.
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
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6/23/2014 12:08:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:22:26 PM, Composer wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:22:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
If you are looking for love, goodness, truth, etc look inside yourself.
If you are looking for someone to judge whether your actions are good or bad, look to your own conscience.
There was a very interesting theme once in the TV Drama ' The Bill ' (British Police program) which actually disagrees with your sentiments.

It was concerning two young boys who were skylarking in an underground walk-way tunnel on their push-bikes.

One of them ran over an old lady walking through but neither stopped to assist her and fled the scene.

The two boys were identified later and questioned by Police regarding this incident.

The boys were of equal age in years, however only one of them was charged after both being asked " Did you realise that what you did was wrong? ".

One said ' Yes! ' who had simply fled the scene, and was charged by police, whilst the other who actually ran over the old lady, said " No! " and was released without charge, because he was deemed not able to recognise his actions as wrongful!

I found that most interesting!

Keep in mind that this was a fictional drama.

However, if this was to happen in true life, then IMHO what it would really show is the de-facto impotence of God.

Most probably the boy that said NO was lying to save his skin, while the one that said YES was being honest. And yet the honest one is punished, and the dishonest one goes free, as a direct consequence of his dishonesty.

In a truly just world, the one that said NO would receive punishment from God. But the world does not in fact work like that, as the theists admit. God does NOT act to provide justice, God does NOT act to do anything. Whether because he chooses not to, or can't, or because he does not exist is a moot point. The practical effect is as if he did not exist, and it is the same everywhere we look. God is unwilling or unable to actually do anything! So who cares if he exists or not? What does it matter?
BradK
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6/23/2014 12:12:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 12:02:53 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/22/2014 11:18:04 PM, BradK wrote:
At 6/22/2014 8:30:38 PM, Fatihah wrote:
To give with no strings attached. And in the end when your life is over, you will be rewarded by God

Evidence?

Response: Qur'an.

Evidence that the Qur'an isn't just ordinary man-made poetry? How do I know that this Jannah place is real? A verse in particular raises both these questions:

"And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous" 3:133

First of all, the "heavens" or outer space as we now call it, is a lot wider than the earth. The width of the earth is extremely negligible when compared to the width of the observable universe, which leads me to believe the author of the Qur'an was not really sure of the ratio of the two. And also, if I COULD NOT consult the Qur'an, how could I find out about the garden, Jannah? In other words, how could I find out about in independently of the Qur'an?
Fatihah
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6/23/2014 12:44:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 12:12:38 AM, BradK wrote:
At 6/23/2014 12:02:53 AM, Fatihah wrote:


Evidence that the Qur'an isn't just ordinary man-made poetry? How do I know that this Jannah place is real? A verse in particular raises both these questions:

"And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous" 3:133

First of all, the "heavens" or outer space as we now call it, is a lot wider than the earth. The width of the earth is extremely negligible when compared to the width of the observable universe, which leads me to believe the author of the Qur'an was not really sure of the ratio of the two. And also, if I COULD NOT consult the Qur'an, how could I find out about the garden, Jannah? In other words, how could I find out about in independently of the Qur'an?

Response: The Qur'an does not state a specific ratio of the heavens and earth so one cannot conclude the author was not sure. Furthermore, we know the Qur'an is true because there is no error in it that one can show and the content contains only guidance to righteousness, with no indecency or immorality. Showing the author is a truthteller. Lastly, we know it derives from a divine source because of the miracle of the Qur'an. As the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah.