Total Posts:93|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Can YOU show me a miracle?

civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,246
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/22/2014 10:55:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

I can, but you won't believe it. I'm assuming that you live in a metropolitan area. You can go down to any Catholic church just about any day of the week and see a miracle. God manifests himself there physically under the guise of bread an wine.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/22/2014 11:01:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

By miracle you seem to be asking for something that is repeatable, localized, and unexplained by natural laws.

I don't think God works that way.

That's a formula for encouraging idol worship.
Schzincko
Posts: 119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 1:39:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:01:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

By miracle you seem to be asking for something that is repeatable, localized, and unexplained by natural laws.

I don't think God works that way.

That's a formula for encouraging idol worship.

I don't think Mhykiel is answering this directly on key, but he has a point.

Theists claim to witness miracles that would simply be overlooked by an atheist. For example, the bread and wine example in the comment just above his would be proof of a miracle if one saw it that way. But to an atheist, it's just people eating bread and drinking wine.

I've been to several churches. When others were doing this, I really saw absolutely no significance in it, and it makes me feel bad for not being able to share that same experience with the others that would take it seriously.
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 1:43:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:55:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

I can, but you won't believe it. I'm assuming that you live in a metropolitan area. You can go down to any Catholic church just about any day of the week and see a miracle. God manifests himself there physically under the guise of bread an wine.

I appreciate your answer, and I like your reply, in that it is not an nth hand internet account of unknown reliability, but a suggestion to observe something first hand. However, as you say, it doesn't really count because we don't expect to find an objective, measurable miracle that is outside of science, at any Catholic Church just about any day, so your answer is NO.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,246
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 1:51:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 1:43:04 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:55:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

I can, but you won't believe it. I'm assuming that you live in a metropolitan area. You can go down to any Catholic church just about any day of the week and see a miracle. God manifests himself there physically under the guise of bread an wine.


I appreciate your answer, and I like your reply, in that it is not an nth hand internet account of unknown reliability, but a suggestion to observe something first hand. However, as you say, it doesn't really count because we don't expect to find an objective, measurable miracle that is outside of science, at any Catholic Church just about any day, so your answer is NO.

If you want something that has been scientifically documented you can always try the Shroud of Turin.

http://www.debate.org...

The formation of the image has never been explained and there is no known ancient or modern mans of replicating it. Unfortunately it only goes on display about once a decade.
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 2:04:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 11:01:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

By miracle you seem to be asking for something that is repeatable, localized, and unexplained by natural laws.
Yes, that pretty much. Something measurable and objective rather than subjective. Something that could not be explained by chance alone. In practice it is actually very difficult to set up a proper test that excludes chance and deliberate dishonesty, especially when a financial reward is offered, but for the purpose of the posting I'm trusting that people know what I mean, and in return am trying not to be unreasonable.

I don't think God works that way.
That's a formula for encouraging idol worship.

So that is another NO. Your answer that 'God doesn't work that way' is pretty standard. I'm sure you understand that it looks like a cop-out, but I am not here to argue about that, and I'm not here to 'rip into' you or anyone else for answering NO.

In the spirit of respectful debate, do you agree that if it true that God deliberately chooses not to act in any objective, measurable way that cannot be distinguished from chance alone, and theists seem united on this, then his claimed impotence is a moot point? What we are left with is claims that are subjective, not measurable, and could be explained by chance alone. That so, can you see why atheists are always banging on about 'lack of (objective) evidence'?

I'm not trying to judge here whether God exists. I'm trying to bring theists and atheists closer together, so we can better understand each other rather than shouting names and insults.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 2:14:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 2:04:45 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/22/2014 11:01:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

By miracle you seem to be asking for something that is repeatable, localized, and unexplained by natural laws.
Yes, that pretty much. Something measurable and objective rather than subjective. Something that could not be explained by chance alone. In practice it is actually very difficult to set up a proper test that excludes chance and deliberate dishonesty, especially when a financial reward is offered, but for the purpose of the posting I'm trusting that people know what I mean, and in return am trying not to be unreasonable.

I don't think God works that way.
That's a formula for encouraging idol worship.

So that is another NO. Your answer that 'God doesn't work that way' is pretty standard. I'm sure you understand that it looks like a cop-out, but I am not here to argue about that, and I'm not here to 'rip into' you or anyone else for answering NO.

In the spirit of respectful debate, do you agree that if it true that God deliberately chooses not to act in any objective, measurable way that cannot be distinguished from chance alone, and theists seem united on this, then his claimed impotence is a moot point? What we are left with is claims that are subjective, not measurable, and could be explained by chance alone. That so, can you see why atheists are always banging on about 'lack of (objective) evidence'?

I'm not trying to judge here whether God exists. I'm trying to bring theists and atheists closer together, so we can better understand each other rather than shouting names and insults.

I'm saying why do Atheist pigeon hole God. Saying he has to do this or has to do that. The key point that separates God from natural force is God is a being of mind and person hood.

Personally I think God only HAS to do what accomplishes his will and desires.

I've used the description before, that like me walking around about my day sometimes I give money to a homeless person, sometimes I do not. If you ONLY measure of my existence was how often a homeless person that asks gets money from me.

No matter how those homeless people described me, said they met me, etc.. you would determine that I did not exist.

I don't think miracles are localized geographically like that. I think they happen when God wants them to happen to accomplish what God wants accomplished.

Most people do what they have to, to get what they want done. Why would God be so different. I think God is more like a person than a miracle vending machine for prayers.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 3:01:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
ANY and ALL so called jebus believers MUST be able to manifest ALL the following -

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18) KJV Story book
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 3:43:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 3:01:31 AM, Composer wrote:
ANY and ALL so called jebus believers MUST be able to manifest ALL the following -

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18) KJV Story book

DO You Atheist want to agree on something? NO of course not you just pick and choose stuff that helps you conclude God does not exist.

1. How is this required of every believer? "signs shall follow them" is not a universal statement of requirement.

2. Mark 16:9-20 As so many Atheist like to point out is a latter addition that talks about Christs visitations AFTER his resurrection.

So composer. DO YOU want to admit the Bible says Christ was resurrected and seen alive after his death by a multitude of people, or do you want to say these signs are possible for believers?

Rhetorical question I'm not interested in dogs that chase their own tails.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 4:28:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 3:01:31 AM, Composer wrote:
ANY and ALL so called jebus believers MUST be able to manifest ALL the following -

*** And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18) KJV Story book

At 6/23/2014 3:43:18 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
DO You Atheist want to agree on something? NO of course not you just pick and choose stuff that helps you conclude God does not exist.

At 6/23/2014 3:43:18 AM, Mhykiel wrote
1. How is this required of every believer? "signs shall follow them" is not a universal statement of requirement.
Read it all again and you should discover your error! i.e. And these signs shall follow them that believe . . . . = Universal requirement for ALL jebus believers!

At 6/23/2014 3:43:18 AM, Mhykiel wrote
2. Mark 16:9-20 As so many Atheist like to point out is a latter addition that talks about Christs visitations AFTER his resurrection.

So composer. DO YOU want to admit the Bible says Christ was resurrected and seen alive after his death by a multitude of people, or do you want to say these signs are possible for believers?
I admit the Story book states both these things!

So IF you are a supposed bible believer & follower of Story book jebus? then let's see you strut your stuff! (See again *** above)

I have friends in the film industry happy to come at your expense to film you performing those things and no doubt when you succeed you can reimburse yourself from any Film rights you may or may not wish to negotiate?

Going from every single so called believer so far, I can say with absolute vindication the next genuine believer will be the first in man's entire literal history!

At 6/23/2014 3:43:18 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
Rhetorical question I'm not interested in dogs that chase their own tails.
Nor I in swine that trample my Pearls in to their ideological mud as do you!

Let us know when you want these people to come and film you and I'll arrange it once you send me the cheque?

Meanwhile you remain a total fraud, liar & BS artist!
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 6:26:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 1:51:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/23/2014 1:43:04 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:55:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

I can, but you won't believe it. I'm assuming that you live in a metropolitan area. You can go down to any Catholic church just about any day of the week and see a miracle. God manifests himself there physically under the guise of bread an wine.


I appreciate your answer, and I like your reply, in that it is not an nth hand internet account of unknown reliability, but a suggestion to observe something first hand. However, as you say, it doesn't really count because we don't expect to find an objective, measurable miracle that is outside of science, at any Catholic Church just about any day, so your answer is NO.

If you want something that has been scientifically documented you can always try the Shroud of Turin.

http://www.debate.org...

The formation of the image has never been explained and there is no known ancient or modern mans of replicating it. Unfortunately it only goes on display about once a decade.

Yes, but I asked whether you personally could show me a miracle, meaning a miracle that happens here and now.

The Shroud is interesting, but just because we don't know how it was made, it does not follow that a supernatural God was involved. But in any event, my interest in this thread is in knowing if God can do anything today. If God's ability to actually do stuff is for real, then I would fully expect that we would have firm evidence now. After all, our ability to accurately observe and record events is unprecedented, and yet day after day, year after year, decade after decade, scientists have found nothing. If God exists, he hides his abilities so well that for all practical purposes he might as well be impotent or non-existent. In measurable, objective terms, he is irrelevant.
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 6:58:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 2:14:23 AM, Mhykiel wrote:

I'm saying why do Atheist pigeon hole God. Saying he has to do this or has to do that.

The key point that separates God from natural force is God is a being of mind and person hood.
You don't actually know that. Given that God (if it exists) is quite definitely NOT a life form anything like humans, or probably even a life form at all, I would specifically NOT expect it to be of something so human as 'mind and person hood'. One of the things that worries me terribly about scripture, and so many of the Gods that people have believed in the past, is just how human like in personality they are portrayed to be. That seems unlikely to me, and suggests that Gods are mental creations of humans. Indeed, we in fact accept that nearly all of the Gods throughout history are no more than mental creations. Except our own God.


Personally I think God only HAS to do what accomplishes his will and desires.
I greatly respect your inclusion of the words 'Personally I think ...' If only all theists refrained from making definitive statements about their God, that in truth they do not know. You are right, we can only guess the mind of God. Maybe you are right that God only does what he wants.


I've used the description before, that like me walking around about my day sometimes I give money to a homeless person, sometimes I do not. If you ONLY measure of my existence was how often a homeless person that asks gets money from me.

No matter how those homeless people described me, said they met me, etc.. you would determine that I did not exist.

I don't think miracles are localized geographically like that. I think they happen when God wants them to happen to accomplish what God wants accomplished.

Most people do what they have to, to get what they want done. Why would God be so different.
Because I have no reason to believe that God (if it exists) is anything like a person.

I think God is more like a person than a miracle vending machine for prayers.

In the end, your posting misses the point. You are finding reasons why a God may choose not to do things. I am saying, who cares. If the God does not in fact do things, or a sufficient number or depth of things that we can't even objectively detect what he does, then who cares? He may as well not exist for all the practical difference it makes. Do you see what I am saying? That is why this thread is entitled 'Can YOU show me a miracle'.
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:49:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
But then who cares about silly neurotic atheists repeating the same logical blunder over and over again: the irrationality of trying to make a supernatural entity jump to natural orders from a much lesser being. It's like an bed louse in a run down flophouse demanding the city mayor to jump out of his kingsize bed and run across town to deliver pizza crumbs to the uppity insect. Get real, atheists. God will never jump for you guys and really, it's just your smokescreen for being in denial of spiritual reality others have no trouble experiencing. Because they're brains are fully functional while the atheist brain is disabled in the spiritual reception capability, this caused by childhood upbringing in secular homes as atheism is the religion of Yuppies. Spiritual consciousness is like speech and needs childhood reinforcement to fully function in adult life. Atheists haven't had that and do not know they are mentally disabled people. We must pity them as we do all disabled people and try our best to help them overcome their disadvantage in coping with life and beyond.
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:54:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I can show anyone a miracle: 35,000 years of continuous religious symbolism of the Messiah in astrological representation used by human beings. Explain how this has happened naturally.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 9:10:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are plenty of facts that seem to confirm that Jesus rose from the dead. You can see them in history books.

Isn't that a good enough miracle for you.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 9:29:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 3:01:31 AM, Composer wrote:
ANY and ALL so called jebus believers MUST be able to manifest ALL the following -

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18) KJV Story book

Those verses were judged non-canonical centuries ago.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 10:23:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

In the Quran in the story of joseph peace be upon him, the ruler of the egyptians is mentioned by the name "King". when its talks about Moses pbuh, its mentions (name of the ruler of the egyptians) by "Pharaoh" not "King". well today after decipher egyptian hieroglyphics, we know that in the middle kingdom era, they called their rulers by the name "King" which is time of joseph pbuh, and in the era of new kingdom which is the time of Moses pbuh, the ruler mentioed by the name "Pharaoh". and thats not known at that time its new information.
Never fart near dog
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 10:26:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 9:10:00 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
There are plenty of facts that seem to confirm that Jesus rose from the dead. You can see them in history books.

Isn't that a good enough miracle for you.

Can you show us a history book to support your claim?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Geogeer
Posts: 4,246
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 10:38:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 6:26:16 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/23/2014 1:51:57 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/23/2014 1:43:04 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:55:56 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

I can, but you won't believe it. I'm assuming that you live in a metropolitan area. You can go down to any Catholic church just about any day of the week and see a miracle. God manifests himself there physically under the guise of bread an wine.


I appreciate your answer, and I like your reply, in that it is not an nth hand internet account of unknown reliability, but a suggestion to observe something first hand. However, as you say, it doesn't really count because we don't expect to find an objective, measurable miracle that is outside of science, at any Catholic Church just about any day, so your answer is NO.

If you want something that has been scientifically documented you can always try the Shroud of Turin.

http://www.debate.org...

The formation of the image has never been explained and there is no known ancient or modern mans of replicating it. Unfortunately it only goes on display about once a decade.

Yes, but I asked whether you personally could show me a miracle, meaning a miracle that happens here and now.

The Shroud is interesting, but just because we don't know how it was made, it does not follow that a supernatural God was involved. But in any event, my interest in this thread is in knowing if God can do anything today. If God's ability to actually do stuff is for real, then I would fully expect that we would have firm evidence now. After all, our ability to accurately observe and record events is unprecedented, and yet day after day, year after year, decade after decade, scientists have found nothing. If God exists, he hides his abilities so well that for all practical purposes he might as well be impotent or non-existent. In measurable, objective terms, he is irrelevant.

Nah, you're just looking for God to do parlour tricks.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 11:00:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 10:26:16 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/23/2014 9:10:00 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
There are plenty of facts that seem to confirm that Jesus rose from the dead. You can see them in history books.

Isn't that a good enough miracle for you.

Can you show us a history book to support your claim?

Sure can, it's called the Bible.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 3:12:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 6:58:19 AM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/23/2014 2:14:23 AM, Mhykiel wrote:

I'm saying why do Atheist pigeon hole God. Saying he has to do this or has to do that.

The key point that separates God from natural force is God is a being of mind and person hood.
You don't actually know that. Given that God (if it exists) is quite definitely NOT a life form anything like humans, or probably even a life form at all, I would specifically NOT expect it to be of something so human as 'mind and person hood'. One of the things that worries me terribly about scripture, and so many of the Gods that people have believed in the past, is just how human like in personality they are portrayed to be. That seems unlikely to me, and suggests that Gods are mental creations of humans. Indeed, we in fact accept that nearly all of the Gods throughout history are no more than mental creations. Except our own God.

This is no different than science having 20 hypothesis for something bu now most agree hypothesis "C" is true.

All people had experiences and phenomena of something they explained with gods. Some are more accurate than others.

If God is not intelligent then I don't think it would be a god.


Personally I think God only HAS to do what accomplishes his will and desires.
I greatly respect your inclusion of the words 'Personally I think ...' If only all theists refrained from making definitive statements about their God, that in truth they do not know. You are right, we can only guess the mind of God. Maybe you are right that God only does what he wants.


I've used the description before, that like me walking around about my day sometimes I give money to a homeless person, sometimes I do not. If you ONLY measure of my existence was how often a homeless person that asks gets money from me.

No matter how those homeless people described me, said they met me, etc.. you would determine that I did not exist.

I don't think miracles are localized geographically like that. I think they happen when God wants them to happen to accomplish what God wants accomplished.

Most people do what they have to, to get what they want done. Why would God be so different.
Because I have no reason to believe that God (if it exists) is anything like a person.

I think God is more like a person than a miracle vending machine for prayers.

In the end, your posting misses the point. You are finding reasons why a God may choose not to do things. I am saying, who cares. If the God does not in fact do things, or a sufficient number or depth of things that we can't even objectively detect what he does, then who cares? He may as well not exist for all the practical difference it makes. Do you see what I am saying? That is why this thread is entitled 'Can YOU show me a miracle'.

I'm saying a miracle if enough knowledge is known, can be explained. I think God works within the rules he makes. This includes the natural rules.

But a series of events that have extremely low chances with the same theme impresses me.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 3:25:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

Response: The honest answer is No. But I don't see the point, being that no theist is a theist because they themselves can perform miracles.

Yet I have an equal challenge. I bet you 5,000 dollars if you can use speech or literature to inspire enough followers to help you conquer and rule just the street you live on as proof that such an act is humanly possible.

If you succeed, 5,000 dollars is yours. If not, you owe me nothing. All you have to do openly declare that Muhammad (saw) is a true prophet and is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Deal?
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:18:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The real miracle would be getting Muslims to admit their founder did not know what he was talking about as these poor Muslim ignoramuses do not know that there was no Moses and that the story of Moses was Jewish mythology covering up the real history of Israelites as part of the failed Hyksos invaders of Egypt who were eventually driven out. Not knowing archeology Muslims are still believing their founder's beliefs which piggy-back on my people's myths of origin, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, all fictions and Muhammad's Allah failed to inform Muhammad of this historical truth.

So without historical truth behind Muhammad's religious beliefs how can there be any spiritual authority in Muhammad's Islam? You Muslims have no spiritual authority behind you, just like Jews and Pauline Christians as the Bible all three religions use has been proven to be a pack of religious myths without historical foundation.

Next time, try Celestial Torah Christianity which is astrologically based and cannot be manipulated by religious priesthoods with their proven ability to fool their believers even in our modern 21st century world because people do not want to outgrow their familiar traditional religious security blankets they hold in their hand while sucking their thumbs and looking for Daddy, (phub) to tell them what to think and do.
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:28:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Give me $5000 and I will show you a religious miracle of God: a religious icon which "speaks" without using any human words exactly what God wants human beings to hear and understand. I have witnesses to this miracle, over 500 of them. Do you have the money?
Fatihah
Posts: 7,734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:30:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 8:28:08 PM, skinker wrote:
Give me $5000 and I will show you a religious miracle of God: a religious icon which "speaks" without using any human words exactly what God wants human beings to hear and understand. I have witnesses to this miracle, over 500 of them. Do you have the money?

Response: I said a miracle. Not the speech of the deluded.
civilbuthonest
Posts: 110
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:35:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 3:25:18 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

Response: The honest answer is No. But I don't see the point, being that no theist is a theist because they themselves can perform miracles.
I appreciate your honest answer. I was not asking if you personally could perform a miracle. I was asking if you could demonstrate to me something (anything you like) that your God was able to do, of an objective nature, that could not have been explained by chance alone. The answer is NO, and in appreciation of your honesty, I don't go ranting 'Ha, gotcha, your god doesn't exist!'.


Yet I have an equal challenge. I bet you 5,000 dollars if you can use speech or literature to inspire enough followers to help you conquer and rule just the street you live on as proof that such an act is humanly possible.

If you succeed, 5,000 dollars is yours. If not, you owe me nothing. All you have to do openly declare that Muhammad (saw) is a true prophet and is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Deal?

Did I ever claim to be able to use speech or literature to conquer and rule the street on which I live? I doubt I could, I never claimed I could, and I have no wish to do so. That said, there have been many, many, many examples in history though of persuasive people misleading (either deliberately or in good faith) large groups of people, so I don't understand what you are getting at. History is replete with examples of widespread religious belief that we now regard as silly and quaint. Seems to me that you have unwittingly chosen an example that works against the point that you were trying to make. Just because millions of people believe something, it does not follow that it is true. Historical fact.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 8:51:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 8:35:14 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
At 6/23/2014 3:25:18 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/22/2014 10:10:15 PM, civilbuthonest wrote:
Can YOU show me a miracle?

No, no, no, I don"t mean a claimed miracle on the internet, or in a book.

What I mean, is can you personally show me a miracle, that would demonstrate in an objective way that God is actually able to do something. This is a reasonable question.

The answer is YES or NO.

And if your answer is YES, then I will fly to your country from Australia at my expense, pay my own accommodation for up to 2 weeks while you objectively demonstrate the miracle, and then fly back again. I'll also pay you USD$5000 for your trouble.

And if you fail, then I will ask for nothing , except paying for my airfare and accommodation. You can"t ask for fairer than that.

So, could all theists/Christians please answer this simple question. YES or NO.

PS. For those honest enough to say NO, I will be honest in return and acknowledge that this does not necessarily mean that your God cannot do anything, just that you are personally unable to demonstrate that he can.

It is an important question, and one that those unsure of their religious leaning have a right to know the answer to.

Response: The honest answer is No. But I don't see the point, being that no theist is a theist because they themselves can perform miracles.
I appreciate your honest answer. I was not asking if you personally could perform a miracle. I was asking if you could demonstrate to me something (anything you like) that your God was able to do, of an objective nature, that could not have been explained by chance alone. The answer is NO, and in appreciation of your honesty, I don't go ranting 'Ha, gotcha, your god doesn't exist!'.


Yet I have an equal challenge. I bet you 5,000 dollars if you can use speech or literature to inspire enough followers to help you conquer and rule just the street you live on as proof that such an act is humanly possible.

If you succeed, 5,000 dollars is yours. If not, you owe me nothing. All you have to do openly declare that Muhammad (saw) is a true prophet and is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Deal?

Did I ever claim to be able to use speech or literature to conquer and rule the street on which I live? I doubt I could, I never claimed I could, and I have no wish to do so. That said, there have been many, many, many examples in history though of persuasive people misleading (either deliberately or in good faith) large groups of people, so I don't understand what you are getting at. History is replete with examples of widespread religious belief that we now regard as silly and quaint. Seems to me that you have unwittingly chosen an example that works against the point that you were trying to make. Just because millions of people believe something, it does not follow that it is true. Historical fact.

Response: In other words, you don't accept my bet. That's fine.

As for the rest, my specific challenge is for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literatue that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible.

So stating that others have done it is not an answer. Secondly, others have not done it as you can't quote any source, from any book, or anywhere on the planet, that says that the followers of a person was able to conquer and rule a nation by inspiring followers with humanmande speech that went against their liking. Not one. So you claim of historical fact fails. Furthermore, even if there was a source, such evidence is hearsay. Whereas the challenge is firsthand evidence. Hearsay is not more credible that firsthand accounts. Another fail.

Therefore, the challenge proves the Qur'an is the true word of Allah? How? The reason is because Muhammad used the Qur'an to inspire enough followers to help him conquer and rule a nation in the same fashion. So since it is humanly impossible to use human-made speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s to help conquer and rule a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean? That means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah. You disagree?Take the challenge and prove differently.