Total Posts:10|Showing Posts:1-10
Jump to topic:

The Flood was not to destroy humans

Narravi
Posts: 15
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 11:09:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
First off, the purpose of this topic is to discuss the reasons why the flood recorded in the bible book of Genesis happened. It's not to discuss the validity of the book, the existence of God, etc.

Alright. Seems to me that most people think that the flood happened because God decided that humans were just too evil, and decided to destroy them all. A more holistic approach to the information we're given suggests otherwise. Two main points to consider:

POINT 1: Sovereignty. God made Adam and Eve, settled them in a prepared area of the Earth, gave them eternal life and biological superiority and commanded them to build civilization. No laws. Total freedom. Save for one exception: God reserves the sole right to rule for himself. Even if human governments formed later, God would be the supreme ruler of humans, by his insistence. Since he gave humans no laws, he chose a tree in Eden that he claimed for himself, and their abstinence from that tree would symbolize their submission to his authority. This allowed humans the ability to CHOOSE to submit to God's rule, or to rebel. The penalty of rebellion, as it is in all governments, was death.

That sovereign right was challenged by a certain individual, who we know today as Satan. He opted for self-rule free from God. The book of revelation tells that he persuaded a third of the angels to his cause. He proposed to humans that if they rebelled against God, they would in effect be making themselves equal to God, taking the right to rule into their own hands. They would fare much better if they had the ability to decide right from wrong for themselves. Also in there was the lie that God would not follow through on the death penalty (he did). They clearly knew that they were less than God, and who wouldn't want to seek out their own benefit? Equality to God seemed like a good thing to them. They joined the rebellion.

Aware that his sovereign right was being called into question, God could not kill humans where they stood and leave the question unanswered. So he cursed humans to deteriorate and die slowly. He also took away much of their biological superiority, making them closer to the animals that they were drawn from. This allowed him to follow through on the death sentence, while still allowing civilization to form, with human self-rule rather than God's rule. From that point on he separated himself from human affairs, to give them the chance to prove their cause. The subsequent offspring of Adam and Eve were born into this death sentence, being unable to repay the debt that they incurred against God.

POINT 2: The Nephilim. In Noah's time, the segment of angels who had defected against God saw an opportunity on Earth. They created human bodies for themselves to inhabit and went and took women and lived in human luxury. No doubt they didn't create ordinary human bodies, but superhuman, massively powerful ones, worthy of legends and mythologies in later times. They then impregnated human women with their superhuman DNA, making crazed, giant hybrid children who terrorized the world. This is clearly interference with the main issue of sovereignty, as humans were now subjugated under these demigods and their powerful children. Angels took the position of Gods on Earth, and terrorized and enslaved mankind. Human self-rule could no longer be proven in these conditions, and the whole situation on earth was ruined. God had to step in and rectify the issue, if humans were ever going to have the opportunity to prove their cause against him.

This is fair, flawless justice on the part of God. The flood was not to destroy humans. It was to give humans a chance to live on their own with NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCES. The Bible says that after the flood God cursed the rebellous angels, took away their ability to create anything (including human bodies), and they then became known as "demons".

I have much more to say on the matter, but I'd like some thoughts on this from others. Is there any logical way that this understanding is incorrect? Intelligent comments only please, no idiots.

SOURCES: Genesis 1, 2, and 6, likely other scriptures I'm forgetting.
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 11:37:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 11:09:45 PM, Narravi wrote:
First off, the purpose of this topic is to discuss the reasons why the flood recorded in the bible book of Genesis happened. It's not to discuss the validity of the book, the existence of God, etc.

Alright. Seems to me that most people think that the flood happened because God decided that humans were just too evil, and decided to destroy them all. A more holistic approach to the information we're given suggests otherwise. Two main points to consider:

POINT 1: Sovereignty. God made Adam and Eve, settled them in a prepared area of the Earth, gave them eternal life and biological superiority and commanded them to build civilization. No laws. Total freedom. Save for one exception: God reserves the sole right to rule for himself. Even if human governments formed later, God would be the supreme ruler of humans, by his insistence. Since he gave humans no laws, he chose a tree in Eden that he claimed for himself, and their abstinence from that tree would symbolize their submission to his authority. This allowed humans the ability to CHOOSE to submit to God's rule, or to rebel. The penalty of rebellion, as it is in all governments, was death.

That sovereign right was challenged by a certain individual, who we know today as Satan. He opted for self-rule free from God. The book of revelation tells that he persuaded a third of the angels to his cause. He proposed to humans that if they rebelled against God, they would in effect be making themselves equal to God, taking the right to rule into their own hands. They would fare much better if they had the ability to decide right from wrong for themselves. Also in there was the lie that God would not follow through on the death penalty (he did). They clearly knew that they were less than God, and who wouldn't want to seek out their own benefit? Equality to God seemed like a good thing to them. They joined the rebellion.

Aware that his sovereign right was being called into question, God could not kill humans where they stood and leave the question unanswered. So he cursed humans to deteriorate and die slowly. He also took away much of their biological superiority, making them closer to the animals that they were drawn from. This allowed him to follow through on the death sentence, while still allowing civilization to form, with human self-rule rather than God's rule. From that point on he separated himself from human affairs, to give them the chance to prove their cause. The subsequent offspring of Adam and Eve were born into this death sentence, being unable to repay the debt that they incurred against God.

POINT 2: The Nephilim. In Noah's time, the segment of angels who had defected against God saw an opportunity on Earth. They created human bodies for themselves to inhabit and went and took women and lived in human luxury. No doubt they didn't create ordinary human bodies, but superhuman, massively powerful ones, worthy of legends and mythologies in later times. They then impregnated human women with their superhuman DNA, making crazed, giant hybrid children who terrorized the world. This is clearly interference with the main issue of sovereignty, as humans were now subjugated under these demigods and their powerful children. Angels took the position of Gods on Earth, and terrorized and enslaved mankind. Human self-rule could no longer be proven in these conditions, and the whole situation on earth was ruined. God had to step in and rectify the issue, if humans were ever going to have the opportunity to prove their cause against him.

This is fair, flawless justice on the part of God. The flood was not to destroy humans. It was to give humans a chance to live on their own with NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCES. The Bible says that after the flood God cursed the rebellous angels, took away their ability to create anything (including human bodies), and they then became known as "demons".

I have much more to say on the matter, but I'd like some thoughts on this from others. Is there any logical way that this understanding is incorrect? Intelligent comments only please, no idiots.

SOURCES: Genesis 1, 2, and 6, likely other scriptures I'm forgetting.

You should write a book. LOL
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Narravi
Posts: 15
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 11:47:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You should write a book. LOL

Ah, the intellectual response I was craving. Thanks for that one!
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 11:50:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 11:47:25 PM, Narravi wrote:
You should write a book. LOL

Ah, the intellectual response I was craving. Thanks for that one!
I read your OP, intelligence was the last thing you were appealing to.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Narravi
Posts: 15
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/23/2014 11:59:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I read your OP, intelligence was the last thing you were appealing to.

Ouch. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... Let me try again. *ahem* All Hail Evolution! All Hail Scientists! All Hail Atheism! Down With All Who Oppose!!!

It's funny, if we take the attitude of the Catholic Church, except we replace "God and Bible" with "Scientists and Science", its absolutely identical to the anti-theist movement we see today. Full of hatred and intolerance and closed-minded bigotry. The biggest difference, is that nowadays we have much more firepower than simple swords and shields. How much longer before we sink into a new dark age where anyone remotely Theist is hunted down and exterminated? How much longer will "human rights" and "freedom" stand in the way? Not long, I'd guess. Either you and your kind win, or God intervenes before it happens. But who cares? Either way we both die in the end, right?
bulproof
Posts: 25,255
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2014 12:02:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 11:59:11 PM, Narravi wrote:
I read your OP, intelligence was the last thing you were appealing to.

Ouch. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... Let me try again. *ahem* All Hail Evolution! All Hail Scientists! All Hail Atheism! Down With All Who Oppose!!!

It's funny, if we take the attitude of the Catholic Church, except we replace "God and Bible" with "Scientists and Science", its absolutely identical to the anti-theist movement we see today. Full of hatred and intolerance and closed-minded bigotry. The biggest difference, is that nowadays we have much more firepower than simple swords and shields. How much longer before we sink into a new dark age where anyone remotely Theist is hunted down and exterminated? How much longer will "human rights" and "freedom" stand in the way? Not long, I'd guess. Either you and your kind win, or God intervenes before it happens. But who cares? Either way we both die in the end, right?

And that is the problem for you isn't it? You are too important for this life to be all there is. Aah well.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Narravi
Posts: 15
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2014 12:21:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
And that is the problem for you isn't it? You are too important for this life to be all there is. Aah well.

Actually the opposite. I see a God and what he stands for, and I also see this world and the war and crime and injustice and inadequacy that define it. I side for what I think works better, even if that means I live a life according to a pre-defined moral standard. I don't expect some reward. I don't believe I will go to heaven, or that I will go to hell if I refuse this standard. When I die, I stop living and that's that. I just know what looks better to me, and I go for that. Self-importance has nothing to do with it.
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2014 2:09:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 11:09:45 PM, Narravi wrote:
First off, the purpose of this topic is to discuss the reasons why the flood recorded in the bible book of Genesis happened. It's not to discuss the validity of the book, the existence of God, etc.

Alright. Seems to me that most people think that the flood happened because God decided that humans were just too evil, and decided to destroy them all. A more holistic approach to the information we're given suggests otherwise. Two main points to consider:

POINT 1: Sovereignty. God made Adam and Eve, settled them in a prepared area of the Earth, gave them eternal life and biological superiority and commanded them to build civilization. No laws. Total freedom. Save for one exception: God reserves the sole right to rule for himself. Even if human governments formed later, God would be the supreme ruler of humans, by his insistence. Since he gave humans no laws, he chose a tree in Eden that he claimed for himself, and their abstinence from that tree would symbolize their submission to his authority. This allowed humans the ability to CHOOSE to submit to God's rule, or to rebel. The penalty of rebellion, as it is in all governments, was death.

That sovereign right was challenged by a certain individual, who we know today as Satan. He opted for self-rule free from God. The book of revelation tells that he persuaded a third of the angels to his cause. He proposed to humans that if they rebelled against God, they would in effect be making themselves equal to God, taking the right to rule into their own hands. They would fare much better if they had the ability to decide right from wrong for themselves. Also in there was the lie that God would not follow through on the death penalty (he did). They clearly knew that they were less than God, and who wouldn't want to seek out their own benefit? Equality to God seemed like a good thing to them. They joined the rebellion.

Aware that his sovereign right was being called into question, God could not kill humans where they stood and leave the question unanswered. So he cursed humans to deteriorate and die slowly. He also took away much of their biological superiority, making them closer to the animals that they were drawn from. This allowed him to follow through on the death sentence, while still allowing civilization to form, with human self-rule rather than God's rule. From that point on he separated himself from human affairs, to give them the chance to prove their cause. The subsequent offspring of Adam and Eve were born into this death sentence, being unable to repay the debt that they incurred against God.

POINT 2: The Nephilim. In Noah's time, the segment of angels who had defected against God saw an opportunity on Earth. They created human bodies for themselves to inhabit and went and took women and lived in human luxury. No doubt they didn't create ordinary human bodies, but superhuman, massively powerful ones, worthy of legends and mythologies in later times. They then impregnated human women with their superhuman DNA, making crazed, giant hybrid children who terrorized the world. This is clearly interference with the main issue of sovereignty, as humans were now subjugated under these demigods and their powerful children. Angels took the position of Gods on Earth, and terrorized and enslaved mankind. Human self-rule could no longer be proven in these conditions, and the whole situation on earth was ruined. God had to step in and rectify the issue, if humans were ever going to have the opportunity to prove their cause against him.

This is fair, flawless justice on the part of God. The flood was not to destroy humans. It was to give humans a chance to live on their own with NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCES. The Bible says that after the flood God cursed the rebellous angels, took away their ability to create anything (including human bodies), and they then became known as "demons".

I have much more to say on the matter, but I'd like some thoughts on this from others. Is there any logical way that this understanding is incorrect? Intelligent comments only please, no idiots.

SOURCES: Genesis 1, 2, and 6, likely other scriptures I'm forgetting.

This seems like a great story but I am sorry to say that your story here is a LOT of speculation. All we know is that God flooded the world, said it was wicked, told Noah to build a boat, and he made the rainbow to signify his promise to never flood the world again. That is pretty much the full extent of our knowledge on the subject not referring to the Satan aspect.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2014 2:50:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/24/2014 2:09:17 AM, LostintheEcho1498 wrote:
All we know is that God flooded the world, said it was wicked, told Noah to build a boat, and he made the rainbow to signify his promise to never flood the world again. That is pretty much the full extent of our knowledge on the subject not referring to the Satan aspect.
ALL we actually know is that the Noahic Flood is a 100% Story book fantasy as are ALL Supernatural gods!
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/24/2014 2:54:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/23/2014 11:09:45 PM, Narravi wrote:
POINT 2: The Nephilim. In Noah's time, the segment of angels who had defected against God saw an opportunity on Earth. They created human bodies for themselves to inhabit and went and took women and lived in human luxury. No doubt they didn't create ordinary human bodies, but superhuman, massively powerful ones, worthy of legends and mythologies in later times. They then impregnated human women with their superhuman DNA, making crazed, giant hybrid children who terrorized the world. This is clearly interference with the main issue of sovereignty, as humans were now subjugated under these demigods and their powerful children. Angels took the position of Gods on Earth, and terrorized and enslaved mankind. Human self-rule could no longer be proven in these conditions, and the whole situation on earth was ruined. God had to step in and rectify the issue, if humans were ever going to have the opportunity to prove their cause against him.
I can just imagine the children (Nephilim) bragging to their school-mates saying something like -

Isn't this biblical god great, he punished my Dad the wicked angel, by giving him my Mum to screw as his punishment?