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Is sacrifice meaningless to an omnipotent god

GOD-vs-ITSELF
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6/27/2014 3:14:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Premise: If a god were omnipotent, reward from "sacrifice" can be achieved without such sacrifice.

Conclusion: Sacrifice from the point of omnipotence would be, 'Masochism'.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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6/27/2014 12:00:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 11:58:23 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
God doesn't need atonement, we do

You started off with the wrong premise :-)

Said as well as the indoctrinated could.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/27/2014 3:48:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 3:14:14 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
Is sacrifice meaningless to an omnipotent god

It depends on what sacrifice means. Jesus sacrificed his life for us, because he used his life to teach us to find life. I think that sacrifice was not meaningless to God, because it was great sign of love. And I don"t think it is reasonable to see that kind of sacrifice meaningless, even if one is omnipotent.
GOD-vs-ITSELF
Posts: 274
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6/27/2014 5:26:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 3:48:37 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/27/2014 3:14:14 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
Is sacrifice meaningless to an omnipotent god

It depends on what sacrifice means. Jesus sacrificed his life for us, because he used his life to teach us to find life. I think that sacrifice was not meaningless to God, because it was great sign of love. And I don"t think it is reasonable to see that kind of sacrifice meaningless, even if one is omnipotent.

It is a sign that god likes to torture itself, that is it.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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6/28/2014 6:09:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 3:48:37 PM, 12_13 wrote:

It depends on what sacrifice means. Jesus sacrificed his life for us, because he used his life to teach us to find life. I think that sacrifice was not meaningless to God, because it was great sign of love. And I don"t think it is reasonable to see that kind of sacrifice meaningless, even if one is omnipotent.

I can't see how there was any sacrifice. If Jesus is God, then an immortal being cannot die. Since Jesus/God knew he would not die, then nothing was sacrificed. A sacrifice means giving up something. Jesus gave up nothing. His 'life' went on uninterrupted.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/29/2014 1:25:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 6:09:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
I can't see how there was any sacrifice. If Jesus is God, then an immortal being cannot die. Since Jesus/God knew he would not die, then nothing was sacrificed. A sacrifice means giving up something. Jesus gave up nothing. His 'life' went on uninterrupted.

According to the Bible, Jesus could have had all the kingdoms in the world (Matt. 4:9), but he chose to serve people as told in the Bible. He used his life on earth for us, therefore it can be said he sacrificed his life for us.

And I think Jesus is not the true God, but the dwelling of the God. According to Jesus, God lives in him.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works"
John 14:10-14
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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6/29/2014 7:10:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/29/2014 1:25:54 PM, 12_13 wrote:

According to the Bible, Jesus could have had all the kingdoms in the world (Matt. 4:9), but he chose to serve people as told in the Bible. He used his life on earth for us, therefore it can be said he sacrificed his life for us.

Many people have spent their lives in the service of humanity. That makes Jesus nothing special then, right?

You also appear to be engaging in apologetics in shifting the meaning of what is generally agreed to be his sacrifice to (supposedly) rid the world of sin - being crucified on the cross. Why might you be doing that?

And I think Jesus is not the true God, but the dwelling of the God. According to Jesus, God lives in him.


So Jesus is not God?
KevinDouglass
Posts: 5
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6/29/2014 7:13:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 11:58:23 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
God doesn't need atonement, we do

You started off with the wrong premise :-)

It's time for me to go out and rebuild religion... Everyone will speak and I'm putting everyone's words to light. With the power of God https://www.youtube.com...
KevinDouglass
Posts: 5
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6/29/2014 7:14:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 3:14:14 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
Premise: If a god were omnipotent, reward from "sacrifice" can be achieved without such sacrifice.

Conclusion: Sacrifice from the point of omnipotence would be, 'Masochism'.

It's time for me to go out and rebuild religion... Everyone will speak and I'm putting everyone's words to light. With the power of God https://www.youtube.com...
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/30/2014 4:04:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/29/2014 7:10:52 PM, dee-em wrote:
Many people have spent their lives in the service of humanity. That makes Jesus nothing special then, right?

I don"t know anyone else that has done same and suffered like Jesus.

So Jesus is not God?

I think Bible is saying that Jesus is not the one and only true God who is higher than all.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29

You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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6/30/2014 4:21:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/30/2014 4:04:58 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/29/2014 7:10:52 PM, dee-em wrote:
Many people have spent their lives in the service of humanity. That makes Jesus nothing special then, right?

I don"t know anyone else that has done same and suffered like Jesus.

So Jesus is not God?

I think Bible is saying that Jesus is not the one and only true God who is higher than all.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29

You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

It will run someone nuts to try to equivocate the persons of the godhead, because each has different personalities and functions. My advise would be to dedicate time to more fruitful endeavors - not rarefied points of minutiae which are not even revealed. Suffice to say that during His earthly existence in human form, the Father was superior to the Son.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GOD-vs-ITSELF
Posts: 274
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6/30/2014 4:55:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 6:09:45 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/27/2014 3:48:37 PM, 12_13 wrote:

It depends on what sacrifice means. Jesus sacrificed his life for us, because he used his life to teach us to find life. I think that sacrifice was not meaningless to God, because it was great sign of love. And I don"t think it is reasonable to see that kind of sacrifice meaningless, even if one is omnipotent.

I can't see how there was any sacrifice. If Jesus is God, then an immortal being cannot die. Since Jesus/God knew he would not die, then nothing was sacrificed. A sacrifice means giving up something. Jesus gave up nothing. His 'life' went on uninterrupted.

I agree with the above statement, UNINTERRUPTED
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
GOD-vs-ITSELF
Posts: 274
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6/30/2014 5:07:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/30/2014 4:21:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/30/2014 4:04:58 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/29/2014 7:10:52 PM, dee-em wrote:
Many people have spent their lives in the service of humanity. That makes Jesus nothing special then, right?

I don"t know anyone else that has done same and suffered like Jesus.

So Jesus is not God?

I think Bible is saying that Jesus is not the one and only true God who is higher than all.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29

You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

It will run someone nuts to try to equivocate the persons of the godhead, because each has different personalities and functions. My advise would be to dedicate time to more fruitful endeavors - not rarefied points of minutiae which are not even revealed. Suffice to say that during His earthly existence in human form, the Father was superior to the Son.

To every real problem in life, god is minutiae.

God could not sacrifice anything because any lack is by choice, and did not need to give anything to get anything.

If jesus was not god, then god didn't sacrifice himself. If jesus was god, then god is a masochist
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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7/1/2014 8:30:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/30/2014 4:04:58 PM, 12_13 wrote:

I don"t know anyone else that has done same and suffered like Jesus.

No-one else in history has suffered torture and death? Really?
The problem I have is that Jesus could perform miracles. If Jesus is God, blocking out pain would be a trivial use of his power. You may say that he chose to endure the pain and suffering. That's fine, but the issue is really whether he made the ultimate sacrifice by dying. I still maintain that an immortal being cannot die. Hence no real sacrifice.

I think Bible is saying that Jesus is not the one and only true God who is higher than all.

So what does this all mean, that Jesus is a lesser god? Even so, the issue I raise still holds.