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Look Familiar?

SkepticalStardust
Posts: 117
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6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?

Look familiar to anyone?
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/27/2014 9:42:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?




Look familiar to anyone?

False analogy.
Atheists do not believe in a god, that does not mean they claim there is no god. Most atheists do not know if a god exists or not but does not believe in one.

~A =/= B
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/27/2014 9:51:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?




Look familiar to anyone?

Your analogy doesn't account for the difference between belief and knowledge...
SkepticalStardust
Posts: 117
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6/27/2014 10:14:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:42:55 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:

False analogy.
Atheists do not believe in a god, that does not mean they claim there is no god. Most atheists do not know if a god exists or not but does not believe in one.

~A =/= B

You read it with the roles switched. Switch them again and I think we'll agree.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/27/2014 10:21:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?




Look familiar to anyone?

Any claim beginning with "I like" or "I believe" is a claim about you. Not the subject. So your analogy isn't equivalent to "God exists"

The other fault is Atheist stand up in posting, claim God is made-up, Religion starts wars, Jesus is a myth, etc... Then what do they want to do, say "I am an Atheist I do not have BOP."

Your lack of believe is no claim worth arguing.. Everything else you say not in reference to your own thoughts and view is a claim. Maybe you can one day understand that when someone says "I like" they talk about themselves. But when they say "Cheese is gross" they have made a statement about the world.

When you make statements about the world expect to get challenged.
SkepticalStardust
Posts: 117
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6/27/2014 10:23:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:51:47 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?




Look familiar to anyone?

Your analogy doesn't account for the difference between belief and knowledge...

It wasn't meant to be much more than a joke, but I think you read the roles in the reverse of how they were intended to be read. Anyway, why is knowledge relevant? Neither theism nor atheism say anything about knowledge. On top of that, how is the difference between belief and knowledge relevant? Just wondering.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/27/2014 11:02:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 10:23:48 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
At 6/27/2014 9:51:47 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?




Look familiar to anyone?

Your analogy doesn't account for the difference between belief and knowledge...

It wasn't meant to be much more than a joke, but I think you read the roles in the reverse of how they were intended to be read. Anyway, why is knowledge relevant? Neither theism nor atheism say anything about knowledge. On top of that, how is the difference between belief and knowledge relevant? Just wondering.

Ah I'm sorry I did misread lol, I apologize.

Well, it's relevant because one of the most common misunderstandings is that atheism is the claim that there is no god, by definition, when in fact the definition is merely a lack of belief in a god. Knowledge vs belief. This is why someone can be an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist.

I think I responded kneejerk assuming you were one of those many people on the forum who fail to make this distinction.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/28/2014 4:16:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:30:43 PM, SkepticalStardust wrote:
A) I like cheese.

B) I don't like cheese.

A) What?! You dislike cheese?!

B) what? I don't like cheese, but that doesn't mean I dislike cheese.

A) Huh? You're saying you don't like cheese! Not liking cheese is disliking cheese!

B) Absence of liking isn't liking abse--

A) YOU DISLIKE CHEESE AND I NEED THAT TO BE TRUE! I WANT YOU TO BE MAKING A CLAIM! IF YOU'RE NOT, THEN I ALONE HAVE TO CARRY THE BURDEN OF PROOF! I WANT YOUR POSITION TO BE AS IN NEED OF PROOF AS MINE! MAKE IT BE SO! YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT'S SO OR BELIEVE IT'S NOT SO!!! NO OTHER OPTIONS!

B) Wait. Are we still talking about cheese?




Look familiar to anyone?

I love cheese, anyone who dislikes cheese are insane.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/28/2014 4:34:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/27/2014 9:42:55 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Look familiar to anyone?

False analogy.
Atheists do not believe in a god, that does not mean they claim there is no god. Most atheists do not know if a god exists or not but does not believe in one.

~A =/= B

That actually made me burst out laughing!

Atheists do not believe in a god, that does not mean they claim there is no god.

Yes, actually, that is exactly what you are flaming when you say you don't believe in God. You don't think he is there. Its what atheism means.

Its exactly the point the OP is making. ZOOOMM ... Right to the moon!
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 8:56:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 4:34:58 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/27/2014 9:42:55 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Look familiar to anyone?

False analogy.
Atheists do not believe in a god, that does not mean they claim there is no god. Most atheists do not know if a god exists or not but does not believe in one.

~A =/= B

That actually made me burst out laughing!

Atheists do not believe in a god, that does not mean they claim there is no god.

Yes, actually, that is exactly what you are flaming when you say you don't believe in God. You don't think he is there. Its what atheism means.

Its exactly the point the OP is making. ZOOOMM ... Right to the moon!

Belief does not have a burden of proof, claiming knowledge gives you a burden of proof. Someone can not believe in a god and not know if there is a god or not. If someone does that then it is not equal to saying there is no god. It is just like me not believing Atlantis is real even though I do not know if it is or not as I have not researched it and I do not know how much it has been researched.

The ONLY way that ~A = B is if you can only believe or disbelieve if you have knowledge about it. Since you can believe and disbelieve without knowledge about it ~A =/= B.

I am a theist and even I know this.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/28/2014 9:07:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 8:56:22 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Belief does not have a burden of proof,

Well, all right then ... every religion is now proven. We have no burden of proof.

ZOOM! Right to the moon!
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 9:45:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:07:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:56:22 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Belief does not have a burden of proof,

Well, all right then ... every religion is now proven. We have no burden of proof.

ZOOM! Right to the moon!

No, not every religion is proven. When you say that a god is real then they have a burden of proof. Religions claim the existence of a god, so the burden of proof for a religion does exist. When you read the Bible it says that God is real, it says that Jesus is the son of God. If you become a Christian you accept those claims, so you have a burden of proof. Atheism, on the other hand, is defined as the disbelief or lack of belief in god or gods. That is the only thing that is shared between atheists, so the atheist position does not have a burden of proof.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/28/2014 9:59:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:45:16 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:07:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:56:22 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Belief does not have a burden of proof,

Well, all right then ... every religion is now proven. We have no burden of proof.

ZOOM! Right to the moon!

No, not every religion is proven.

If 'belief' has no burden of proof, then no religion has to say much of anything by that standard.

If you say God does not exist, one would hope that something logical and explainable would have lead you to that conclusion. If not? Yikes ... that means atheism is completely devoid of logic, correct?

All the nonsense about you not having a BOP because its just a belief? You just adopted the very thing about religion that you supposedly hate: belief without proof.

Well? Is atheism the result of a logical and explainable process or not?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 10:13:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:59:17 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:16 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:07:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:56:22 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Belief does not have a burden of proof,

Well, all right then ... every religion is now proven. We have no burden of proof.

ZOOM! Right to the moon!

No, not every religion is proven.

If 'belief' has no burden of proof, then no religion has to say much of anything by that standard.

The Bible itself claims the existence of God. The Qur'an itself claims the existence of Allah. This means that accepting Christianity, Islam, etc. means that you accept the burden of proof that comes with it.

If you say God does not exist, one would hope that something logical and explainable would have lead you to that conclusion. If not? Yikes ... that means atheism is completely devoid of logic, correct?

You are mistaking knowledge and belief again. The majority of atheists do not claim god does not exist because that claims having knowledge about it. The majority of atheists claim no knowledge about the existence of god and do not believe in one. Atheism is also the default position, so there is no need to explain why someone is an atheist UNLESS the burden of proof has been met for theism.

All the nonsense about you not having a BOP because its just a belief? You just adopted the very thing about religion that you supposedly hate: belief without proof.

I am not an atheist, so nice try with that comment. Also, atheism is a Null Hypothesis. When the hypothesis of existence (god exists) is not met, the logical conclusion is the Null Hypothesis (the absence of god). Also, atheism is not a belief, it is the absence of belief.

Well? Is atheism the result of a logical and explainable process or not?

Atheism is the Null Hypothesis and default position, so it is logical to take. Anecdotal evidence is only evidence to the person that experienced it, so if someone believes in a god because of anecdotal evidence they also have a logical position (if Occam's Razor would put the experience being attributed to a god), but that does not mean that anecdotal evidence is evidence to anyone else.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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6/28/2014 10:28:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:13:53 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


The Bible itself claims the existence of God. The Qur'an itself claims the existence of Allah. This means that accepting Christianity, Islam, etc. means that you accept the burden of proof that comes with it.

Agh yeah, they claim the same God ... so ...

And you are not addressing the point. You said belief has no burden of proof. So ... I fully acknowledge my burden of proof, what I am stating openly is that SO DO YOU.


You are mistaking knowledge and belief again. The majority of atheists do not claim god does not exist because that claims having knowledge about it.

Than WTF is atheism? Atheism is the claim that God does not exist.

And the problem is you are making that claim without a lick of damn proof or even and explanation. You are correct though, without knowledge or evidence, there is indeed nothing driving a claim - save bubble headedness.

So if you belief's don't require support, then neither do mine - which EXPLICITLY state that faith is a requirement. Get some - proven by YOUR standard.


I am not an atheist, so nice try with that comment. Also, atheism is a Null Hypothesis. When the hypothesis of existence (god exists) is not met, the logical conclusion is the Null Hypothesis (the absence of god). Also, atheism is not a belief, it is the absence of belief.

Something should be driving you see an absence of God. Sort of like when I walk into a dark room ... I see the absence of light. So I can explain WHY its black ... there are no windows! Heh ... look cause and effect.

And you started by saying atheism IS a belief, that is why it has no burden of proof.

In short, you are using a classic argument from absurdity. I don't have to explain my position (which is a simple claim being made extraordinarily stupid) but you do ... for conflicting and incomprehensible reasons that conflict with simple reality.

You have a burden of proof.

And yes, if you are atheist, you don't think there is a God.

Embracing absurdity rather than silly saying why? That is worse than Scientology. By a wide margin.


Well? Is atheism the result of a logical and explainable process or not?

Atheism is the Null Hypothesis and default position, so it is logical to take.

No the default position is agnosticism. I see you have drunk the atheist coolaid without actually examining the position.

If the question can be answered yes or no, then the default position is not no.

Does that cheese taste good? No is not the default position.

Did Jesus Exist? No is not the default position.

Did Mohammed Exist? No is not the default position.

Will there be a nuclear war? No is not the default position.

Will I someday be divorced? No is not the default position (particularly if you are ignoring your spouse).

Does a God exist? The default position is ... I don't know?

No requires one to look at the evidence and ascertain in some explainable fashion why the answer is no. And its not by denying that this has to happen or is a default position in defiance of simple logic.

If the answer is Yes, that TOO requires a supportable explanation. Which we have met with ... Apologetics.

But I could just write some garbage called the full hypothesis, and claim that YES is the default position.

After all, do strangers exist that snatch your kid away? Yep. Its best to have that as the default position wit strangers until proven otherwise.

Are windowless vans with chipped paint parked next to a school potentially dangerous? Yep.

So you see, the full hypothesis trumpets the null hypothesis ... which means you have to assume nothing exits - like that wall when you are blindfolded and just walked into because you assumed it didn't exist until it smacked you in the head and proved it existed.

A logical reason to believe that God is not there ... that I do not see. Just a bunch of dogma ripped off rationalwiki or secular web.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 11:14:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:28:02 AM, neutral wrote:
At 6/28/2014 10:13:53 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


The Bible itself claims the existence of God. The Qur'an itself claims the existence of Allah. This means that accepting Christianity, Islam, etc. means that you accept the burden of proof that comes with it.

Agh yeah, they claim the same God ... so ...

And you are not addressing the point. You said belief has no burden of proof. So ... I fully acknowledge my burden of proof, what I am stating openly is that SO DO YOU.

Well, I am not an atheist so I do technically have a burden of proof, but there is no point in filling it for my beliefs as there is a universal afterlife. I can make arguments for the Golden Goddesses if I choose, but I am currently choosing not to in order to put together the best arguments before I try.

You are mistaking knowledge and belief again. The majority of atheists do not claim god does not exist because that claims having knowledge about it.

Than WTF is atheism? Atheism is the claim that God does not exist.

No, atheism is not a claim that God does not exist. Atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in a god or gods.

And the problem is you are making that claim without a lick of damn proof or even and explanation. You are correct though, without knowledge or evidence, there is indeed nothing driving a claim - save bubble headedness.

Let's look at the dictionary, shall we (Oxford)?
Atheism-Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
Belief-An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof OR Trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)
Knowledge-Facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject

Knowledge deals with facts, Atheism is not a knowledge claim. Belief deals with personal positions of trust/acceptance in something/someone.

Theism puts trust/acceptance in a god, hence belief.
Atheism is not putting trust/acceptance in a god, hence disbelief

So if you belief's don't require support, then neither do mine - which EXPLICITLY state that faith is a requirement. Get some - proven by YOUR standard.

I am a theist, so my belief's do require support.

I am not an atheist, so nice try with that comment. Also, atheism is a Null Hypothesis. When the hypothesis of existence (god exists) is not met, the logical conclusion is the Null Hypothesis (the absence of god). Also, atheism is not a belief, it is the absence of belief.

Something should be driving you see an absence of God.

Did you even read what I said? I am not an atheist.

Sort of like when I walk into a dark room ... I see the absence of light. So I can explain WHY its black ... there are no windows! Heh ... look cause and effect.

Just to be a smart*** on this comment (because I am kinda bored), there is still light in that room, just not in the visible light spectrum.

And you started by saying atheism IS a belief, that is why it has no burden of proof.

Beliefs have no BoP, but if your belief is in something that carries a BoP when accepted (the Bible, the Qur'an, etc.) you are not just believing in something but accepting something as fact. That puts a BoP on you.

In short, you are using a classic argument from absurdity. I don't have to explain my position (which is a simple claim being made extraordinarily stupid) but you do ... for conflicting and incomprehensible reasons that conflict with simple reality.

Sorry, but once again, not an atheist. Also, this is not argument from absurdity, you simply are failing to comprehend what I am stating since it goes against your beliefs, hence bias.

You have a burden of proof.

I do, yes. I am a theist.

And yes, if you are atheist, you don't think there is a God.

The definition of atheism specifically states that it is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. This is not the same thing as saying there is no god.

Embracing absurdity rather than silly saying why? That is worse than Scientology. By a wide margin.

"silly saying why?" Can you restate this?

Well? Is atheism the result of a logical and explainable process or not?

Atheism is the Null Hypothesis and default position, so it is logical to take.

No the default position is agnosticism. I see you have drunk the atheist coolaid without actually examining the position.

The default position is agnostic atheism. You do not know and do not believe.

If the question can be answered yes or no, then the default position is not no.

The definition of atheism clearly puts it as being a lack of belief or not believing in a god. This means that, by definition, if you are not a theist you are an atheist.

Does that cheese taste good? No is not the default position.

Did Jesus Exist? No is not the default position.

Did Mohammed Exist? No is not the default position.

Will there be a nuclear war? No is not the default position.

Will I someday be divorced? No is not the default position (particularly if you are ignoring your spouse).

Does a God exist? The default position is ... I don't know?

You are, once again, confusing knowledge and belief. The default position is not knowing and not believing.

No requires one to look at the evidence and ascertain in some explainable fashion why the answer is no. And its not by denying that this has to happen or is a default position in defiance of simple logic.

If the answer is Yes, that TOO requires a supportable explanation. Which we have met with ... Apologetics.

No offense, I have yet to see one logically sound apologetic argument.

But I could just write some garbage called the full hypothesis, and claim that YES is the default position.

After all, do strangers exist that snatch your kid away? Yep. Its best to have that as the default position wit strangers until proven otherwise.

Are windowless vans with chipped paint parked next to a school potentially dangerous? Yep.

So you see, the full hypothesis trumpets the null hypothesis ... which means you have to assume nothing exits - like that wall when you are blindfolded and just walked into because you assumed it didn't exist until it smacked you in the head and proved it existed.

Can you provide a link to this "full hypothesis"? I can't seem to find anything on it.

A logical reason to believe that God is not there ... that I do not see. Just a bunch of dogma ripped off rationalwiki or secular web.

You mention rationalwiki, which makes no sense. It is like you simply argue as if everyone is an atheist. What is the purpose of saying "rationalwiki" in this?
CJKAllstar
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6/28/2014 12:14:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Fallacy of affirming a disjunct I believe. I agree with your point, to say a lack of belief implies a dislike of God, or being anti-God, or not thinking there is a God implies the inverse to the three as mentioned cannot exist as well as atheism.
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." - George Orwell