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Lack of proof is evidence for God

andymcstab
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6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, this is my original argument: Lack of proof IS evidence for God.

It is well established that God endowed us with free will. Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.

So what are the odds that we should be capable, incentivised even, to ask this question, and yet have "proof" still elude us?

Lets consider the odds against this question even being asked.

What are the chances that a universe would form, with the precise conditions to enable life? 1 in trillions upon trillions upon trillions.

What are the chances, that of the billions of creatures on earth, and the trillions of other planets, there should be no greater intellect forthcoming to sway us or inform us with respect to this question? Again, one in umpteen billions, atleast.

What are the chances that our environment should be productive of such questions? - what are the chances that we should exist and suffer and laugh? What are the chances against a tree, a mountain, a flower, a rainbow, a snowflake, a poem, a scent, a storm, a tragedy, a taste, sadness, happiness? What are the chances against all of us being challenged in life? What are the chances against us existing and being able to witness the sky and the stars and feel awed?

What are the chances that there should ever be an intellect which is provoked to ask this question? No chance..

And yet, what are the chances that all of the above should be true, but the answer still eludes us?

What are the chances that of all questions, this one is the most hotly debated and evenly balanced throughout history? What are the chances that we should be able to literally look back in time, through space, and be met with a what is effectively a brick wall to stop us witnessing the beginning?

What are the chances that this question should still be hanging in the balance, as we approach this obvious point in history where everything is coming to a head, regarding population, the evils we see, the state of technology, the state of morality, and so on?

And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

What are the chances?
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/28/2014 3:50:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
So, this is my original argument: Lack of proof IS evidence for God.


Lack of proof for what? For God?

It is well established that God endowed us with free will. Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.


You're being circular. You already have a preconceived notion of a God that (according to you) wants things to be shrouded in mystery so as not to "encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve".

I think Bugs Bunny exists. My evidence is that Bugs Bunny doesn't want people to know that he exists, so they can decide for themselves. You can't prove that he does or doesn't exist. That's evidence that Bugs Bunny does exist.

So what are the odds that we should be capable, incentivised even, to ask this question, and yet have "proof" still elude us?


What would you consider "proof"?

And see above.

Lets consider the odds against this question even being asked.

What are the chances that a universe would form, with the precise conditions to enable life? 1 in trillions upon trillions upon trillions.

What are the chances, that of the billions of creatures on earth, and the trillions of other planets, there should be no greater intellect forthcoming to sway us or inform us with respect to this question? Again, one in umpteen billions, atleast.

What are the chances that our environment should be productive of such questions? - what are the chances that we should exist and suffer and laugh? What are the chances against a tree, a mountain, a flower, a rainbow, a snowflake, a poem, a scent, a storm, a tragedy, a taste, sadness, happiness? What are the chances against all of us being challenged in life? What are the chances against us existing and being able to witness the sky and the stars and feel awed?

What are the chances that there should ever be an intellect which is provoked to ask this question? No chance..

And yet, what are the chances that all of the above should be true, but the answer still eludes us?

What are the chances that of all questions, this one is the most hotly debated and evenly balanced throughout history? What are the chances that we should be able to literally look back in time, through space, and be met with a what is effectively a brick wall to stop us witnessing the beginning?

What are the chances that this question should still be hanging in the balance, as we approach this obvious point in history where everything is coming to a head, regarding population, the evils we see, the state of technology, the state of morality, and so on?

And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

What are the chances?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Several potential explanations. Even if you think all of the counterarguments are insufficient, resorting to God-of-the-Gaps reasoning is fallacious. We don't resort to the supernatural just because we can't immediately explain something by the natural.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 4:31:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
So, this is my original argument: Lack of proof IS evidence for God.

Not according to sciences, logic, or anything rational.

It is well established that God endowed us with free will.

Really? Where is this proof that our free will comes from God?

Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.

Not really. Some people know that smoking is harmful, but they still choose to smoke and believe it will not effect them. It is illogical, but still possible.

So what are the odds that we should be capable, incentivised even, to ask this question, and yet have "proof" still elude us?

Evidence of nonexistence is illogical, so the burden of proof is on us theists.

Lets consider the odds against this question even being asked.

What are the chances that a universe would form, with the precise conditions to enable life? 1 in trillions upon trillions upon trillions.

That estimation is full of ****. We only have one universe to observe life in so we cannot know the answer to that. Maybe that is true if you are saying that life can ONLY exist as it does on Earth, but this is unproven.

What are the chances, that of the billions of creatures on earth, and the trillions of other planets, there should be no greater intellect forthcoming to sway us or inform us with respect to this question? Again, one in umpteen billions, atleast.

How do you come up with this number? Making it up?

What are the chances that our environment should be productive of such questions? - what are the chances that we should exist and suffer and laugh? What are the chances against a tree, a mountain, a flower, a rainbow, a snowflake, a poem, a scent, a storm, a tragedy, a taste, sadness, happiness? What are the chances against all of us being challenged in life? What are the chances against us existing and being able to witness the sky and the stars and feel awed?

Us humans? Low because evolution does not imply humans, or any specific life form will form. For life? It is unknown.

What are the chances that there should ever be an intellect which is provoked to ask this question? No chance..

You say no chance, but we know that chance does exist since humans exist. You have been pulling numbers out of your *** this whole time.

And yet, what are the chances that all of the above should be true, but the answer still eludes us?

Since evidence of nonexistence is illogical, there is a decent chance of that happening if there is no deity.

What are the chances that of all questions, this one is the most hotly debated and evenly balanced throughout history? What are the chances that we should be able to literally look back in time, through space, and be met with a what is effectively a brick wall to stop us witnessing the beginning?

We do not know the chances, and we cannot know if with higher technology that we will be able to see the beginning or not.

What are the chances that this question should still be hanging in the balance, as we approach this obvious point in history where everything is coming to a head, regarding population, the evils we see, the state of technology, the state of morality, and so on?

How often will you beg the question?

And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

First, they are FAR from proven true. Second, the chances that they spread as far as they did is highly likely if you research the history of the religion and how it was spread.

What are the chances?

Most of the chances cannot be known, others are you begging the question. You used fallacy after fallacy. I find it hilarious that you think this is a rational argument.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 7:10:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 5:48:53 PM, andymcstab wrote:
No trolling atheist mafia, please.

Good thing I am not trolling or an atheist then
Nebelous
Posts: 58
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6/28/2014 7:43:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Please explain how this argument, however fallacious it may be, is proof for a Christian God? Why can I not replace Jesus Christ with Mohammed in this sentence: And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?
Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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6/28/2014 8:05:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.

Key problem there is God has blasted whole cities out of existence, and once drowned every man woman and child who did not believe in him (I think it's safe to say Noah and his family were believers). God as written of in the bible, does indeed provide plenty of proof of existence.
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bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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6/28/2014 8:08:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 8:05:09 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.

Key problem there is God has blasted whole cities out of existence, and once drowned every man woman and child who did not believe in him (I think it's safe to say Noah and his family were believers). God as written of in the bible, does indeed provide plenty of proof of existence.

The Harry Potter books are evidence of witchcraft. See how easy that is?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
andymcstab
Posts: 308
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6/29/2014 11:28:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 7:43:23 PM, Nebelous wrote:
Please explain how this argument, however fallacious it may be, is proof for a Christian God? Why can I not replace Jesus Christ with Mohammed in this sentence: And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

Its not proof. You must be American? (can't distinguish proof from evidence)
andymcstab
Posts: 308
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6/29/2014 11:42:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 3:50:08 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
So, this is my original argument: Lack of proof IS evidence for God.


It is well established that God endowed us with free will. Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.


You're being circular. You already have a preconceived notion of a God that (according to you) wants things to be shrouded in mystery so as not to "encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve".
1: Its pretty much universal in all denominations of each Abrahamic religion that God has given free will.
2: I have a notion of God with a certain character, and i am arguing for evidence of that character evident in the world, through the chances of us both existing to ask the question, being inclined to answer the question, and being unable to answer it. There is nothing circular there.


I think Bugs Bunny exists. My evidence is that Bugs Bunny doesn't want people to know that he exists, so they can decide for themselves. You can't prove that he does or doesn't exist. That's evidence that Bugs Bunny does exist.
Bugs Bunny doesn't possess the characteristics to create and manage our environment, nor the development of the universe. If you endow him with those characteristics, you are only re-naming God as something ridiculous, the intellectual equivelent of painting a moustache on a celebrity in a magazine.


So what are the odds that we should be capable, incentivised even, to ask this question, and yet have "proof" still elude us?


What would you consider "proof"?
Being able to answer the question definitively, or atleast in such a strong way which dissolves freedom of will.

And see above.

Lets consider the odds against this question even being asked.

What are the chances that a universe would form, with the precise conditions to enable life? 1 in trillions upon trillions upon trillions.

What are the chances, that of the billions of creatures on earth, and the trillions of other planets, there should be no greater intellect forthcoming to sway us or inform us with respect to this question? Again, one in umpteen billions, atleast.

What are the chances that our environment should be productive of such questions? - what are the chances that we should exist and suffer and laugh? What are the chances against a tree, a mountain, a flower, a rainbow, a snowflake, a poem, a scent, a storm, a tragedy, a taste, sadness, happiness? What are the chances against all of us being challenged in life? What are the chances against us existing and being able to witness the sky and the stars and feel awed?

What are the chances that there should ever be an intellect which is provoked to ask this question? No chance..

And yet, what are the chances that all of the above should be true, but the answer still eludes us?

What are the chances that of all questions, this one is the most hotly debated and evenly balanced throughout history? What are the chances that we should be able to literally look back in time, through space, and be met with a what is effectively a brick wall to stop us witnessing the beginning?

What are the chances that this question should still be hanging in the balance, as we approach this obvious point in history where everything is coming to a head, regarding population, the evils we see, the state of technology, the state of morality, and so on?

And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

What are the chances?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Several potential explanations. Even if you think all of the counterarguments are insufficient, resorting to God-of-the-Gaps reasoning is fallacious. We don't resort to the supernatural just because we can't immediately explain something by the natural.

This isn't God of the gaps reasoning. Stop throwing around spurious claims of fallacy.
Nebelous
Posts: 58
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6/29/2014 12:15:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/29/2014 11:28:25 AM, andymcstab wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:43:23 PM, Nebelous wrote:
Please explain how this argument, however fallacious it may be, is evidence for a Christian God? Why can I not replace Jesus Christ with Mohammed in this sentence: And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

Its not proof. You must be American? (can't distinguish proof from evidence)
andymcstab
Posts: 308
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6/29/2014 12:35:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 4:31:22 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
So, this is my original argument: Lack of proof IS evidence for God.

It is well established that God endowed us with free will.

Really? Where is this proof that our free will comes from God?
I am speaking according to Abrahamic theology.

Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.

Not really. Some people know that smoking is harmful, but they still choose to smoke and believe it will not effect them. It is illogical, but still possible.
It would encroach in the same way that living encroaches your free will to believe you are dead. Smoking is not an equivelent, as many people smoke their entire lives with no big problems. No like God whose existence or non-existence, if certain, has guaranteed huge ramifications.


Lets consider the odds against this question even being asked.

What are the chances that a universe would form, with the precise conditions to enable life? 1 in trillions upon trillions upon trillions.

That estimation is full of ****. We only have one universe to observe life in so we cannot know the answer to that. Maybe that is true if you are saying that life can ONLY exist as it does on Earth, but this is unproven.

No, this estimation is actually in line with the estimation of agnostic physicists such as Paul Davies, and is why the whole infinite multiverse theory exists, to deal with those odds. Either the power of the cosmological constants is necessary, or not. They are not, because they are removed from the laws themselves.

Just regarding the ratio of electromagnetic to gravitational forces, if they alone were different even to the degree of 1 part in 10 to the power of 40, it would preclude the possibility of a life-permitting universe. To visualise a number so huge, Paul Davies writes:" it is the kind of accuracy a marksman would need to hit a coin at the far side of the observable universe, twenty billion light years away."

Astrophysicist Hugh Ross gives another illustration: "cover America with coins in a column reaching to the moon (236,000 miles away), then do the same for a billion other continents of the same size. Paint one coin red and put it somewhere in one of the billion piles. Blindfold someone and ask them to pick it out. The odds are about 1 in 10 to the power of 40 that they will."

What are the chances, that of the billions of creatures on earth, and the trillions of other planets, there should be no greater intellect forthcoming to sway us or inform us with respect to this question? Again, one in umpteen billions, atleast.

How do you come up with this number? Making it up?
It is easy. How many life forms exist? how many could potentially exist? What is the chances of us being the most intelligent, and capable to ask this question? We could equally be wagging our tails and chewing on a Bonio right now..


What are the chances that our environment should be productive of such questions? - what are the chances that we should exist and suffer and laugh? What are the chances against a tree, a mountain, a flower, a rainbow, a snowflake, a poem, a scent, a storm, a tragedy, a taste, sadness, happiness? What are the chances against all of us being challenged in life? What are the chances against us existing and being able to witness the sky and the stars and feel awed?

Us humans? Low because evolution does not imply humans, or any specific life form will form. For life? It is unknown.
We have established that us humans aren't necessary, so we are considering the odds of any life form both existing, and being capable of and invoked to ask such a question, and then throughout the whole of history being unable to answer it.

And yet, what are the chances that all of the above should be true, but the answer still eludes us?

Since evidence of nonexistence is illogical, there is a decent chance of that happening if there is no deity.
I don't understand your argument.

What are the chances that of all questions, this one is the most hotly debated and evenly balanced throughout history? What are the chances that we should be able to literally look back in time, through space, and be met with a what is effectively a brick wall to stop us witnessing the beginning?

We do not know the chances, and we cannot know if with higher technology that we will be able to see the beginning or not.

We can only account for what is, and has been. Not what might be, in Imagination Land.

What are the chances that this question should still be hanging in the balance, as we approach this obvious point in history where everything is coming to a head, regarding population, the evils we see, the state of technology, the state of morality, and so on?

How often will you beg the question?
How often will you make spurious claims of fallacy?

And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

First, they are FAR from proven true. Second, the chances that they spread as far as they did is highly likely if you research the history of the religion and how it was spread.
They aren't far from being proven true at all.

Jesus prophesized that before his second coming, at the end times, the Human race would acquire the ability to annihilate every living creature

Matthew:24:22 "if that time of troubles were not cut short, no living thing could survive; but for the sake of God's chosen it will be cut short"

Jesus prophesized the re-establishment of Israel, and that it would be surrounded by enemies (Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, which was Palestine until the end of ww2)

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near . . . For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled"

That the end days would be like Sodom and Gomorrah (ie sexual perversion, esp homosexuality everywhere)

"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." -Luke 17:28,29"

There is also the prophecy of 1 world government/religion, that all will be made to worship "the beast". You can observe the formation of such a 'global governance', today. And just a week or two ago the Pope for the first time held prayed sessions with leaders of other world religions.

The prophecy of Christians being hated by all nations,

"you will be hated by all nations because of me." - We can see this occurring with the rise of aggressive atheism due to religious terrorism and roman catholic paedophiles, etc.

Great apostasy and increase in wickedness

"10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,"

etc etc

What are the chances?

Most of the chances cannot be known.

Right, they can't. But we can know that they are vanishingly small.
Enji
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6/29/2014 3:06:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At most you can say that lack of proof is consistent with the existence of God; a lack of proof for God would also be expected if God did not exist, so it's hardly evidence for God's existence.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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6/29/2014 5:45:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/29/2014 11:42:36 AM, andymcstab wrote:
At 6/28/2014 3:50:08 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 2:50:33 PM, andymcstab wrote:
So, this is my original argument: Lack of proof IS evidence for God.


It is well established that God endowed us with free will. Should there be proof for or against God, it would encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve respectively.


You're being circular. You already have a preconceived notion of a God that (according to you) wants things to be shrouded in mystery so as not to "encroach on the free will of those who want to believe or disbelieve".
1: Its pretty much universal in all denominations of each Abrahamic religion that God has given free will.
2: I have a notion of God with a certain character, and i am arguing for evidence of that character evident in the world, through the chances of us both existing to ask the question, being inclined to answer the question, and being unable to answer it. There is nothing circular there.


I think Bugs Bunny exists. My evidence is that Bugs Bunny doesn't want people to know that he exists, so they can decide for themselves. You can't prove that he does or doesn't exist. That's evidence that Bugs Bunny does exist.
Bugs Bunny doesn't possess the characteristics to create and manage our environment, nor the development of the universe. If you endow him with those characteristics, you are only re-naming God as something ridiculous, the intellectual equivelent of painting a moustache on a celebrity in a magazine.


So? The "characteristics to create and manage our environment, nor the development of the universe" aren't essential to your argument about lack of proof being evidence. Your argument for why the lack of proof is evidence does not use these characteristics. I made the exact same argument as you to lend evidence to the existence of Bugs Bunny.


So what are the odds that we should be capable, incentivised even, to ask this question, and yet have "proof" still elude us?


What would you consider "proof"?
Being able to answer the question definitively, or atleast in such a strong way which dissolves freedom of will.

And see above.

Lets consider the odds against this question even being asked.

What are the chances that a universe would form, with the precise conditions to enable life? 1 in trillions upon trillions upon trillions.

What are the chances, that of the billions of creatures on earth, and the trillions of other planets, there should be no greater intellect forthcoming to sway us or inform us with respect to this question? Again, one in umpteen billions, atleast.

What are the chances that our environment should be productive of such questions? - what are the chances that we should exist and suffer and laugh? What are the chances against a tree, a mountain, a flower, a rainbow, a snowflake, a poem, a scent, a storm, a tragedy, a taste, sadness, happiness? What are the chances against all of us being challenged in life? What are the chances against us existing and being able to witness the sky and the stars and feel awed?

What are the chances that there should ever be an intellect which is provoked to ask this question? No chance..

And yet, what are the chances that all of the above should be true, but the answer still eludes us?

What are the chances that of all questions, this one is the most hotly debated and evenly balanced throughout history? What are the chances that we should be able to literally look back in time, through space, and be met with a what is effectively a brick wall to stop us witnessing the beginning?

What are the chances that this question should still be hanging in the balance, as we approach this obvious point in history where everything is coming to a head, regarding population, the evils we see, the state of technology, the state of morality, and so on?

And what are the chances that knowledge of Jesus Christ and his words should have spread all around the world, as they have? And the chances that they should be proven true, as they are?

What are the chances?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Several potential explanations. Even if you think all of the counterarguments are insufficient, resorting to God-of-the-Gaps reasoning is fallacious. We don't resort to the supernatural just because we can't immediately explain something by the natural.

This isn't God of the gaps reasoning. Stop throwing around spurious claims of fallacy.

Yes it is. It's saying, I can't explain the order of the universe naturally at the present moment, so I'll resort to the supernatural to explain it. That's the definition of God-of-the-Gaps reasoning.

I'm not throwing around spurious claims of fallacy, but nice try.