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Afterlife argument I have heard

lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.
Benshapiro
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6/28/2014 8:07:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As you have it listed, if salvation is earned by deed that doesn't necessitate that the person who doesn't earn salvation goes to hell, they could merely cease to exist.

Salvation by faith would end up sending some people deemed bad earning salvation while others deemed good miss out, but the whole point is that we are all "bad" and all are imperfect. True judgement could only come in the afterlife.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 8:14:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 8:07:04 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As you have it listed, if salvation is earned by deed that doesn't necessitate that the person who doesn't earn salvation goes to hell, they could merely cease to exist.

Which an infinite punishment (non-existence as punishment) for finite "crime", which is still illogical.

Salvation by faith would end up sending some people deemed bad earning salvation while others deemed good miss out, but the whole point is that we are all "bad" and all are imperfect. True judgement could only come in the afterlife.

Even if we are all "bad" the system is flawed as it still would lead to the same as by deed, infinite punishment/suffering for finite "crime".
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 8:25:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

Response: Option 2 is not illogical since you agreed to it.

Meaning you were in another spiritual state and asked if you wanted the reward of paradise, which requires to become a human and be tested in this life. You said yes. Therefore, before you were born, the memory of this is washed off, and once you are born, the test begins. Therefore, option 2 is logical and just, because you agreed to it.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 8:45:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 8:25:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

Response: Option 2 is not illogical since you agreed to it.

Can you support this assertion that I agreed to it? Even if I did agree to it, can you support that I was in a state in which I could rationally agree to it?

Meaning you were in another spiritual state and asked if you wanted the reward of paradise, which requires to become a human and be tested in this life. You said yes. Therefore, before you were born, the memory of this is washed off, and once you are born, the test begins. Therefore, option 2 is logical and just, because you agreed to it.

It is still not logical because it allows infinite punishment for finite "crime". It is also illogical because it proposes that you were segregated before birth where if you did not say yes you would not have paradise. A perfect god would not segregate beings because they choose not to agree to an irrational agreement.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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6/28/2014 8:52:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 8:45:23 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:25:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

Response: Option 2 is not illogical since you agreed to it.

Can you support this assertion that I agreed to it? Even if I did agree to it, can you support that I was in a state in which I could rationally agree to it?

Meaning you were in another spiritual state and asked if you wanted the reward of paradise, which requires to become a human and be tested in this life. You said yes. Therefore, before you were born, the memory of this is washed off, and once you are born, the test begins. Therefore, option 2 is logical and just, because you agreed to it.

It is still not logical because it allows infinite punishment for finite "crime". It is also illogical because it proposes that you were segregated before birth where if you did not say yes you would not have paradise. A perfect god would not segregate beings because they choose not to agree to an irrational agreement.

Response: The proof you agreed is the Qur'an. The proof the Qur'an is true is the Qur'an challenge.

As for the rest, it is not illogical since you agreed to it. If you didn't like it, you shouldn't have agreed. So the one being illogical would be you, not God. Furthermore, you are not obligated to paradise. So thinking you are entitled to it without agreeing to the conditions to get it is illogical on your part again, not God.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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6/28/2014 9:00:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

In islam the point 1 and 2 must go together, faith and deeds both gives salvation. believing and doing whatever you want is foolish, and being good and disbelieving in God and denying him its like you dont care you dont give a sh1t is also absurd so these 2 need to be together.

Point 3 is foolish because if eventually everybody will go to paradise, whats the point obeying God in the first place? living like as Angel or as a devil wont make a different, meaning that Hitler and the most pious person in the world will reach the same paradise. it doesnt make anysense.

point 4 is usless, if you dont believe in afterlife why even mentioning it?

Here good answer by Zakir Naik about this issue (according to Islam)... https://www.youtube.com...
Never fart near dog
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 9:01:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 8:52:54 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:45:23 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:25:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

Response: Option 2 is not illogical since you agreed to it.

Can you support this assertion that I agreed to it? Even if I did agree to it, can you support that I was in a state in which I could rationally agree to it?

Meaning you were in another spiritual state and asked if you wanted the reward of paradise, which requires to become a human and be tested in this life. You said yes. Therefore, before you were born, the memory of this is washed off, and once you are born, the test begins. Therefore, option 2 is logical and just, because you agreed to it.

It is still not logical because it allows infinite punishment for finite "crime". It is also illogical because it proposes that you were segregated before birth where if you did not say yes you would not have paradise. A perfect god would not segregate beings because they choose not to agree to an irrational agreement.

Response: The proof you agreed is the Qur'an. The proof the Qur'an is true is the Qur'an challenge.

We already had a discussion in which you agreed your logic was delusional. I will put it in the form of an easy to understand equation for you.

If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

I (A) used your logic (B) against you (A=B). You said that the logic was delusional (C) (A=C), meaning that your logic for the Qur'an challenge is delusional (B=C).

Also, can you point to where in the Qur'an it says this?

As for the rest, it is not illogical since you agreed to it.

You have not provided any evidence for this.

If you didn't like it, you shouldn't have agreed.

I would not agree to anything this stupid. Also, what a person's identity is is the impact they made and the memories they have. If my memories are gone and I have made no impact prior to being conceived then it is not me (my identity) that agreed to it, if that even happened.

So the one being illogical would be you, not God.

Never said God was being illogical as I do not believe in YOUR god. The idea of it being rational is illogical. If it is irrational it is illogical. Either way, it is illogical.

Furthermore, you are not obligated to paradise.

Never said I was.

So thinking you are entitled to it without agreeing to the conditions to get it is illogical on your part again, not God.

I never said the universal afterlife is a paradise, it could easily be a neutral afterlife. Also, to segregate is not fair. What is not fair is not perfect. Making a system like that is imperfect. A perfect god would not use an imperfect system. Your system is not being used.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 9:06:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:00:24 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

In islam the point 1 and 2 must go together, faith and deeds both gives salvation. believing and doing whatever you want is foolish, and being good and disbelieving in God and denying him its like you dont care you dont give a sh1t is also absurd so these 2 need to be together.

It still leaves the problems of point 2, infinite punishment for finite "crime".

Point 3 is foolish because if eventually everybody will go to paradise, whats the point obeying God in the first place? living like as Angel or as a devil wont make a different, meaning that Hitler and the most pious person in the world will reach the same paradise. it doesnt make anysense.

Never said it was a paradise. You also might have to reconcile with your crimes when you die. My belief is that you experience everything you caused to others, so there is an equal punishment for your crime. You are also under the assumption that a perfect god would give orders to follow, which is not a requirement for a god.

point 4 is usless, if you dont believe in afterlife why even mentioning it?

I don't, I believe point 3. It is still a logical conclusion though.

Here good answer by Zakir Naik about this issue (according to Islam)... https://www.youtube.com...

I will watch this, but I have seen some videos from him that have been very flawed.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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6/28/2014 9:11:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:01:05 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:52:54 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:45:23 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:25:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

Response: Option 2 is not illogical since you agreed to it.

Can you support this assertion that I agreed to it? Even if I did agree to it, can you support that I was in a state in which I could rationally agree to it?

Meaning you were in another spiritual state and asked if you wanted the reward of paradise, which requires to become a human and be tested in this life. You said yes. Therefore, before you were born, the memory of this is washed off, and once you are born, the test begins. Therefore, option 2 is logical and just, because you agreed to it.

It is still not logical because it allows infinite punishment for finite "crime". It is also illogical because it proposes that you were segregated before birth where if you did not say yes you would not have paradise. A perfect god would not segregate beings because they choose not to agree to an irrational agreement.

Response: The proof you agreed is the Qur'an. The proof the Qur'an is true is the Qur'an challenge.

We already had a discussion in which you agreed your logic was delusional. I will put it in the form of an easy to understand equation for you.

If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

I (A) used your logic (B) against you (A=B). You said that the logic was delusional (C) (A=C), meaning that your logic for the Qur'an challenge is delusional (B=C).

Also, can you point to where in the Qur'an it says this?

As for the rest, it is not illogical since you agreed to it.

You have not provided any evidence for this.

If you didn't like it, you shouldn't have agreed.

I would not agree to anything this stupid. Also, what a person's identity is is the impact they made and the memories they have. If my memories are gone and I have made no impact prior to being conceived then it is not me (my identity) that agreed to it, if that even happened.

So the one being illogical would be you, not God.

Never said God was being illogical as I do not believe in YOUR god. The idea of it being rational is illogical. If it is irrational it is illogical. Either way, it is illogical.

Furthermore, you are not obligated to paradise.

Never said I was.

So thinking you are entitled to it without agreeing to the conditions to get it is illogical on your part again, not God.

I never said the universal afterlife is a paradise, it could easily be a neutral afterlife. Also, to segregate is not fair. What is not fair is not perfect. Making a system like that is imperfect. A perfect god would not use an imperfect system. Your system is not being used.

Response: In other words, you failed the Qur'an challenge again, thus proving it is true. And since you agreed to it and now call what you agreed to irrational, then you've just called yourself irrational. Debunked as usual.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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6/28/2014 9:16:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:11:00 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:01:05 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:52:54 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:45:23 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 8:25:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

Response: Option 2 is not illogical since you agreed to it.

Can you support this assertion that I agreed to it? Even if I did agree to it, can you support that I was in a state in which I could rationally agree to it?

Meaning you were in another spiritual state and asked if you wanted the reward of paradise, which requires to become a human and be tested in this life. You said yes. Therefore, before you were born, the memory of this is washed off, and once you are born, the test begins. Therefore, option 2 is logical and just, because you agreed to it.

It is still not logical because it allows infinite punishment for finite "crime". It is also illogical because it proposes that you were segregated before birth where if you did not say yes you would not have paradise. A perfect god would not segregate beings because they choose not to agree to an irrational agreement.

Response: The proof you agreed is the Qur'an. The proof the Qur'an is true is the Qur'an challenge.

We already had a discussion in which you agreed your logic was delusional. I will put it in the form of an easy to understand equation for you.

If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

I (A) used your logic (B) against you (A=B). You said that the logic was delusional (C) (A=C), meaning that your logic for the Qur'an challenge is delusional (B=C).

Also, can you point to where in the Qur'an it says this?

As for the rest, it is not illogical since you agreed to it.

You have not provided any evidence for this.

If you didn't like it, you shouldn't have agreed.

I would not agree to anything this stupid. Also, what a person's identity is is the impact they made and the memories they have. If my memories are gone and I have made no impact prior to being conceived then it is not me (my identity) that agreed to it, if that even happened.

So the one being illogical would be you, not God.

Never said God was being illogical as I do not believe in YOUR god. The idea of it being rational is illogical. If it is irrational it is illogical. Either way, it is illogical.

Furthermore, you are not obligated to paradise.

Never said I was.

So thinking you are entitled to it without agreeing to the conditions to get it is illogical on your part again, not God.

I never said the universal afterlife is a paradise, it could easily be a neutral afterlife. Also, to segregate is not fair. What is not fair is not perfect. Making a system like that is imperfect. A perfect god would not use an imperfect system. Your system is not being used.

Response: In other words, you failed the Qur'an challenge again, thus proving it is true. And since you agreed to it and now call what you agreed to irrational, then you've just called yourself irrational. Debunked as usual.

Response: In other words, you failed the Goddess challenge again, thus proving they are true divinity. You also have not provided any evidence that I agreed to it, therefore you are making an illogical and irrational argument. Debunked as usual.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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6/28/2014 9:22:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:16:34 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: In other words, you failed the Goddess challenge again, thus proving they are true divinity. You also have not provided any evidence that I agreed to it, therefore you are making an illogical and irrational argument. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in three Goddesses. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Qur'an challenge, thus proving the Qur'an is true and you agreed to it. Debunked as usual.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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6/28/2014 9:24:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:06:28 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:00:24 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

In islam the point 1 and 2 must go together, faith and deeds both gives salvation. believing and doing whatever you want is foolish, and being good and disbelieving in God and denying him its like you dont care you dont give a sh1t is also absurd so these 2 need to be together.

It still leaves the problems of point 2, infinite punishment for finite "crime".

If somebody is sure that god exists and disbeleives in him, in other words dont giving him a sh1t, i dont know if its punishment finite or infinite because you dont give a damn whats Gods tells you, God mean infinite wise power mercy hearing.. we are nothing compare to God.


Point 3 is foolish because if eventually everybody will go to paradise, whats the point obeying God in the first place? living like as Angel or as a devil wont make a different, meaning that Hitler and the most pious person in the world will reach the same paradise. it doesnt make anysense.

Never said it was a paradise. You also might have to reconcile with your crimes when you die.

You have a time, God gives everybody a time,you have a brain to chose right and wrong, so if you waste it, its your problem, there are certain rules. you dont do whatever you like.

My belief is that you experience everything you caused to others, so there is an equal punishment for your crime.

According to the Quran, it says everyone who do evil deeds, will see as equal of his deeds, and everyone who do good deeds, he will see better rewared for his deeds. but as i said denying God when you know it, equal infinity because you denying infinity compare to you equaling nothing.

You are also under the assumption that a perfect god would give orders to follow, which is not a requirement for a god.

im not for position to judge what will a perfect God would do, in the Quran it does, so we know what a perfect God would do. this question you wont never know what its answer, unless God tells you, so yeah believing as a muslim in the Quran that is the answer.

point 4 is usless, if you dont believe in afterlife why even mentioning it?


I don't, I believe point 3. It is still a logical conclusion though.

Its not. do you wish for somebody like hitler to do whatever he wants killing whatever moves around, and reach paradise? whats the point? if it was like that, believe me everybody will do everything they like regardless God forbids or not. the final goal is the reality.

Here good answer by Zakir Naik about this issue (according to Islam)... https://www.youtube.com...

I will watch this, but I have seen some videos from him that have been very flawed.

well there are too muslims dont agreeing with him, but its about the issue we talking about so it would be good to see this...
Never fart near dog
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 9:25:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:22:02 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:16:34 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: In other words, you failed the Goddess challenge again, thus proving they are true divinity. You also have not provided any evidence that I agreed to it, therefore you are making an illogical and irrational argument. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in three Goddesses. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Qur'an challenge, thus proving the Qur'an is true and you agreed to it. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in the Qur'an. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Goddess challenge, thus proving the Golden Goddesses are true divinity. Debunked as usual.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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6/28/2014 9:26:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:25:07 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:22:02 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:16:34 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: In other words, you failed the Goddess challenge again, thus proving they are true divinity. You also have not provided any evidence that I agreed to it, therefore you are making an illogical and irrational argument. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in three Goddesses. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Qur'an challenge, thus proving the Qur'an is true and you agreed to it. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in the Qur'an. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Goddess challenge, thus proving the Golden Goddesses are true divinity. Debunked as usual.

Response: Quote one post where I say I am an atheist, if you are truthful?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 9:36:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:24:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:06:28 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:00:24 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 7:57:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
What do you think?

There are four positions one can take for belief in an afterlife.

1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation by deed.
3. Universal afterlife.
4. No afterlife.

Salvation by faith is flawed because it would allow good people to suffer and bad people to have paradise, thus a perfect (considered an attribute of every god) god would not use this system.

Salvation by deed seems good, but it is also flawed as it gives infinite punishment for finite "crime", thus a perfect god would not use this system.

This leaves a universal afterlife or no afterlife.

This means that if there is a universal afterlife, everyone goes there no matter what.

If there is no afterlife, no one goes to an afterlife no matter what.

This means it does not matter what you believe, you will be going to the same place as everyone else.

If you see any flaws or have any questions, point them out and I will address them when I can.

In islam the point 1 and 2 must go together, faith and deeds both gives salvation. believing and doing whatever you want is foolish, and being good and disbelieving in God and denying him its like you dont care you dont give a sh1t is also absurd so these 2 need to be together.

It still leaves the problems of point 2, infinite punishment for finite "crime".

If somebody is sure that god exists and disbeleives in him, in other words dont giving him a sh1t, i dont know if its punishment finite or infinite because you dont give a damn whats Gods tells you, God mean infinite wise power mercy hearing.. we are nothing compare to God.

It is illogical to follow that you know something is true and do not believe it is true, so I do not see your point there.

Also, who says that god is telling you anything or expects you to follow it? Even if you do not follow it, why an infinite punishment for finite "crime"? BTW, I believe in the three Golden Goddesses. I will say "God" in this in order to try and prevent confusion. I agree we are nothing compared to God, but that does not mean that we deserve infinite punishment for a finite amount of rebellions.

Point 3 is foolish because if eventually everybody will go to paradise, whats the point obeying God in the first place? living like as Angel or as a devil wont make a different, meaning that Hitler and the most pious person in the world will reach the same paradise. it doesnt make anysense.

Never said it was a paradise. You also might have to reconcile with your crimes when you die.

You have a time, God gives everybody a time,you have a brain to chose right and wrong, so if you waste it, its your problem, there are certain rules. you dont do whatever you like.

I agree that you should do right and not wrong, but I do not think that it means you deserve infinite punishment.

My belief is that you experience everything you caused to others, so there is an equal punishment for your crime.

According to the Quran, it says everyone who do evil deeds, will see as equal of his deeds, and everyone who do good deeds, he will see better rewared for his deeds. but as i said denying God when you know it, equal infinity because you denying infinity compare to you equaling nothing.

You are saying that this is try if you deny God, but you can only truly deny God if you know that God exists, which is not proven. It is still not deserving of an infinite punishment for your actions.

You are also under the assumption that a perfect god would give orders to follow, which is not a requirement for a god.

im not for position to judge what will a perfect God would do, in the Quran it does, so we know what a perfect God would do. this question you wont never know what its answer, unless God tells you, so yeah believing as a muslim in the Quran that is the answer.

This is good for you as a Muslim, but I am addressing this from a different belief system while trying to address the issue objectively. Since the Qur'an is not proven we cannot use it for an objective conclusion, which is what I am going for. I also do not see how Allah is a perfect God.

point 4 is usless, if you dont believe in afterlife why even mentioning it?


I don't, I believe point 3. It is still a logical conclusion though.

Its not. do you wish for somebody like hitler to do whatever he wants killing whatever moves around, and reach paradise? whats the point? if it was like that, believe me everybody will do everything they like regardless God forbids or not. the final goal is the reality.

I never said the afterlife is "paradise". I also think that if Hitler must reconcile for his crimes and receive equal punishment for them that he does not deserve any more punishment than that. Also, what you are saying about people acting how they want is disproven solely by seeing that the majority of atheists, who do not believe in a god, still act like good people.

Here good answer by Zakir Naik about this issue (according to Islam)... https://www.youtube.com...

I will watch this, but I have seen some videos from him that have been very flawed.

well there are too muslims dont agreeing with him, but its about the issue we talking about so it would be good to see this...

Zakir avoided important parts of the questions that he was asked. It is not that good of an answer and still ends up with an illogical end of infinite punishment for finite "crime". He also said nothing about if we had free will to say no to becoming a human or what would happen if we said no. There were other problems I found, but it was still interesting.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:26:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:25:07 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:22:02 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:16:34 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: In other words, you failed the Goddess challenge again, thus proving they are true divinity. You also have not provided any evidence that I agreed to it, therefore you are making an illogical and irrational argument. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in three Goddesses. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Qur'an challenge, thus proving the Qur'an is true and you agreed to it. Debunked as usual.

Response: You are an atheist, saying you believe in the Qur'an. Such stupidity alone debunks your own challenge, nor answers the Goddess challenge, thus proving the Golden Goddesses are true divinity. Debunked as usual.

Response: Quote one post where I say I am an atheist, if you are truthful?

Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Are you an atheist?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 9:49:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.

Response: Do you believe in a God/s exist?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 9:51:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:49:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.

Response: Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Answer my question first. Are you an atheist?

I want this to be fair. I answered a question, so it is your turn. I go next, then you go. We continue this until you answer the same number of questions as I do.
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 9:53:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:51:52 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:49:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.

Response: Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Answer my question first. Are you an atheist?

I want this to be fair. I answered a question, so it is your turn. I go next, then you go. We continue this until you answer the same number of questions as I do.

Response: Amusing.

I am a Muslim.

Do you believe in a God/s exist?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 9:55:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:53:55 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:51:52 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:49:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.

Response: Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Answer my question first. Are you an atheist?

I want this to be fair. I answered a question, so it is your turn. I go next, then you go. We continue this until you answer the same number of questions as I do.

Response: Amusing.

It is, and fair.

I am a Muslim.

Okay

Do you believe in a God/s exist?

I believe there are the three higher deities, the Golden Goddesses. There are also lesser deities.

Do you believe in a God/s exist?
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 10:06:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:55:35 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:53:55 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:51:52 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:49:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.

Response: Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Answer my question first. Are you an atheist?

I want this to be fair. I answered a question, so it is your turn. I go next, then you go. We continue this until you answer the same number of questions as I do.

Response: Amusing.

It is, and fair.

I am a Muslim.

Okay

Do you believe in a God/s exist?

I believe there are the three higher deities, the Golden Goddesses. There are also lesser deities.


Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Response: I believe in one God, who is Allah.

Did your Goddesses bring world peace?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 10:11:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:06:56 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:55:35 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:53:55 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:51:52 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:49:08 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:47:16 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:45:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:42:45 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:


Response: How about you quote one post of mine that says I am an atheist. Make sure it was not me playing devil's advocate. Or were you being untruthful? Since you can accuse me of being an atheist without evidence, I do not need evidence to claim you are one either. It is called using the same logic as you.

Response: I never said you stated it. I said you are one. The evidence is in the following question:

Okay, then my evidence will bi in the following question. Are you an atheist?

Are you an atheist?

No.

Response: Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Answer my question first. Are you an atheist?

I want this to be fair. I answered a question, so it is your turn. I go next, then you go. We continue this until you answer the same number of questions as I do.

Response: Amusing.

It is, and fair.

I am a Muslim.

Okay

Do you believe in a God/s exist?

I believe there are the three higher deities, the Golden Goddesses. There are also lesser deities.


Do you believe in a God/s exist?

Response: I believe in one God, who is Allah.

Did your Goddesses bring world peace?

As a religion of the multiverse, one of their champions has.

Did Muhammad use speech/literature that goes against what the people wanted in order to conquer Arabia?
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 10:19:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:11:41 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:

Did your Goddesses bring world peace?

As a religion of the multiverse, one of their champions has.

Did Muhammad use speech/literature that goes against what the people wanted in order to conquer Arabia?

Response: Yes.

Response: Did your Goddesses create humans?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 10:20:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:19:17 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 10:11:41 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:

Did your Goddesses bring world peace?

As a religion of the multiverse, one of their champions has.

Did Muhammad use speech/literature that goes against what the people wanted in order to conquer Arabia?

Response: Yes.

Response: Did your Goddesses create humans?

One of the three Golden Goddesses created all life.

Did your god create humans?
Fatihah
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6/28/2014 10:29:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:20:37 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 10:19:17 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 10:11:41 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:

Did your Goddesses bring world peace?

As a religion of the multiverse, one of their champions has.

Did Muhammad use speech/literature that goes against what the people wanted in order to conquer Arabia?

Response: Yes.

Response: Did your Goddesses create humans?

One of the three Golden Goddesses created all life.

Did your god create humans?

Response: Yes. Allah created humans.

How do you know your Goddess created life?
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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6/28/2014 10:29:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 10:19:17 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/28/2014 10:11:41 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:

Did your Goddesses bring world peace?

As a religion of the multiverse, one of their champions has.

Did Muhammad use speech/literature that goes against what the people wanted in order to conquer Arabia?

Response: Yes.

Response: Did your Goddesses create humans?

To be a little more specific, one of the Golden Goddesses created all the life in many realms, and through that process allowed life to also be guided under other lesser deities. Some realms are have been created by certain lesser deities with permission of the Golden Goddesses and those lesser deities were allowed to create life in their realms. However, all the power to do this originates from this specific Golden Goddess.
POPOO5560
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6/28/2014 10:32:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/28/2014 9:36:35 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:24:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:06:28 PM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 6/28/2014 9:00:24 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

In islam the point 1 and 2 must go together, faith and deeds both gives salvation. believing and doing whatever you want is foolish, and being good and disbelieving in God and denying him its like you dont care you dont give a sh1t is also absurd so these 2 need to be together.

It still leaves the problems of point 2, infinite punishment for finite "crime".

If somebody is sure that god exists and disbeleives in him, in other words dont giving him a sh1t, i dont know if its punishment finite or infinite because you dont give a damn whats Gods tells you, God mean infinite wise power mercy hearing.. we are nothing compare to God.

It is illogical to follow that you know something is true and do not believe it is true, so I do not see your point there.

In Islam the terms "kafir" = "disbeliever", but the real translation of it is "someone who hides or cover", now someone can know the truth but not follow it. for example a person who has a high status, he avoiding Islam because fear of losing its position, like rejection of his familiy, losing a job, so losing faith because of worldy matter.


Also, who says that god is telling you anything or expects you to follow it? Even if you do not follow it, why an infinite punishment for finite "crime"? BTW, I believe in the three Golden Goddesses. I will say "God" in this in order to try and prevent confusion. I agree we are nothing compared to God, but that does not mean that we deserve infinite punishment for a finite amount of rebellions.

Well knowing its true and rejecting it (kafirs), im not the right person to judge how much its equal, rejecting God its like you dont give crap on his infinity power wise etc.. but its for the kufar. talking about someone who trys to find the truth, confused or not heared the massage is a different issue, in the Quran God promises that they will see the truth and the falsehood untel its clear to them, but if somebody dont find the truth in this world, for a certain reason, the outcome is defer.


Point 3 is foolish because if eventually everybody will go to paradise, whats the point obeying God in the first place? living like as Angel or as a devil wont make a different, meaning that Hitler and the most pious person in the world will reach the same paradise. it doesnt make anysense.

Never said it was a paradise. You also might have to reconcile with your crimes when you die.

You have a time, God gives everybody a time,you have a brain to chose right and wrong, so if you waste it, its your problem, there are certain rules. you dont do whatever you like.

I agree that you should do right and not wrong, but I do not think that it means you deserve infinite punishment.

i answer the same above about the "kafirs", its defers for different people. if you watch the video, it will explain briefly that it says in the Quran that we all "humans" chose this condition to be in this test beforehand. if i didnt chose it, i wont be in this world, that is the Quranic answer as you will see in the video...


My belief is that you experience everything you caused to others, so there is an equal punishment for your crime.

According to the Quran, it says everyone who do evil deeds, will see as equal of his deeds, and everyone who do good deeds, he will see better rewared for his deeds. but as i said denying God when you know it, equal infinity because you denying infinity compare to you equaling nothing.

You are saying that this is try if you deny God, but you can only truly deny God if you know that God exists, which is not proven. It is still not deserving of an infinite punishment for your actions.

God says it will be clear to them that this is the truth by this verse: 41:53
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?

if somebody cant see the truth for some reason, i dont know im not the right person to judge i need to find the answer in the Quran...


You are also under the assumption that a perfect god would give orders to follow, which is not a requirement for a god.

im not for position to judge what will a perfect God would do, in the Quran it does, so we know what a perfect God would do. this question you wont never know what its answer, unless God tells you, so yeah believing as a muslim in the Quran that is the answer.

This is good for you as a Muslim, but I am addressing this from a different belief system while trying to address the issue objectively. Since the Qur'an is not proven we cannot use it for an objective conclusion, which is what I am going for. I also do not see how Allah is a perfect God.

Yep for muslims, but anyone can reason in different ways, but if God tell something its allways true with his limitless wisdom. so the point here if you believe the Quran is the truth or not, so its another debate why we believe its the right path...

point 4 is usless, if you dont believe in afterlife why even mentioning it?


I don't, I believe point 3. It is still a logical conclusion though.

Its not. do you wish for somebody like hitler to do whatever he wants killing whatever moves around, and reach paradise? whats the point? if it was like that, believe me everybody will do everything they like regardless God forbids or not. the final goal is the reality.

I never said the afterlife is "paradise". I also think that if Hitler must reconcile for his crimes and receive equal punishment for them that he does not deserve any more punishment than that. Also, what you are saying about people acting how they want is disproven solely by seeing that the majority of atheists, who do not believe in a god, still act like good people.

poeple who dont believe in God, for the good deeds they do, God will reward them in this world and not in the hereafter, this is from this Hadith:
"Allah never disregards a good deed of a believer; he reward him for it in this world and in the Hereafter. As for a disbeliever, he is rewarded for the good deeds in this world so that when he is in the Afterlife, no more reward will be there for him.".


Zakir avoided important parts of the questions that he was asked. It is not that good of an answer and still ends up with an illogical end of infinite punishment for finite "crime". He also said nothing about if we had free will to say no to becoming a human or what would happen if we said no. There were other problems I found, but it was still interesting.

What he said that we chose our test by agreeing to be human or not, if you asking if we knew what will the outcome of the choice? i dont know... i will check it...
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