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Is Modern Day Religion Harmful?

ChristianPunk
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7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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7/10/2014 3:53:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

Like I said, different branch. Militant atheists would rather make pushy statements about religion being nothing but a gateway to ignorance and violence when people like me are very open minded and reasonable.

Taliban, Boko Haram and other groups exist, then there is gay muslims and muslim punks playing Taqwacore music like the Kominas where they play songs like "I Want A Blowjob."

There are muslims who try to reform Islam. Such as Muslims Against Sharia, a blog you can check out. These muslims claim Islam and the Koran are being abused for the use of violence and can admit that some parts of the Koran no longer apply today. It's a site calling for a peaceful reformation.

I am a Christian Anarchist that advocates for absolute peace and pacifism as teached by Leo Tolstoy who was a great inspiration to Gandhi who was peaceful Hindu. Martin Luther King Jr. was a peaceful Christian who advocated civil rights.

Anything wrong with these instances?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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7/10/2014 4:12:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:53:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

Like I said, different branch. Militant atheists would rather make pushy statements about religion being nothing but a gateway to ignorance and violence when people like me are very open minded and reasonable.

Taliban, Boko Haram and other groups exist, then there is gay muslims and muslim punks playing Taqwacore music like the Kominas where they play songs like "I Want A Blowjob."

There are muslims who try to reform Islam. Such as Muslims Against Sharia, a blog you can check out. These muslims claim Islam and the Koran are being abused for the use of violence and can admit that some parts of the Koran no longer apply today. It's a site calling for a peaceful reformation.

I am a Christian Anarchist that advocates for absolute peace and pacifism as teached by Leo Tolstoy who was a great inspiration to Gandhi who was peaceful Hindu. Martin Luther King Jr. was a peaceful Christian who advocated civil rights.

Anything wrong with these instances?

The topic title was 'is modern religion harmful?' Not 'Do the harmful effects of modern religion originate from the 'right' branches of Islam, Christianity etc'

I.e. Your objection is just off the mark, it doesn't matter if they have the wrong interpretation or whatever, what matters is that their religious beliefs positively influence their action in a way in which it's harmful.
Praesentya
Posts: 195
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7/10/2014 4:21:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Aside from all the abhorrent crimes posted above - which are all based on the interpretation of religion - religion itself is harmful, in my opinion.

For starters, religion is based on fictional stories; when concepts couldn't be explained, people just made up a justification. All well and good until you start interpreting those fictional stories as fact, and rejecting scientific fact. Can you imagine how much more advanced society would be if Christianity didn't exist - thus the Dark Ages didn't exist?

Moreover, I have this theory that atheists - those who don't believe in heaven and hell - actually care about making the world a better place. While theists - those who believe in an afterlife - seem to not care about perfecting this world as they seem to think there is some sort of afterlife and this life is just a discardable pathway to heaven. This delusion, in my opinion, has led to the rejection of global warming, the rejection of stem cell research, the rejection of science as a whole.

It's one thing to be comforted by your religion, it's another thing entirely to pour your faith into a concept which is founded in fictional storytelling.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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7/10/2014 4:29:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 4:21:13 PM, Praesentya wrote:
Aside from all the abhorrent crimes posted above - which are all based on the interpretation of religion - religion itself is harmful, in my opinion.

For starters, religion is based on fictional stories; when concepts couldn't be explained, people just made up a justification. All well and good until you start interpreting those fictional stories as fact, and rejecting scientific fact. Can you imagine how much more advanced society would be if Christianity didn't exist - thus the Dark Ages didn't exist?

Moreover, I have this theory that atheists - those who don't believe in heaven and hell - actually care about making the world a better place. While theists - those who believe in an afterlife - seem to not care about perfecting this world as they seem to think there is some sort of afterlife and this life is just a discardable pathway to heaven. This delusion, in my opinion, has led to the rejection of global warming, the rejection of stem cell research, the rejection of science as a whole.

It's one thing to be comforted by your religion, it's another thing entirely to pour your faith into a concept which is founded in fictional storytelling.

There are others who get their philosophy or morals from fictional stories we heard as children or from movies or from books. I may be a theist, but I would want to focus on making the world better for the future generations that will come into the life. Those who think the revelations are coming soon and claim they know it is, are idiots who are lazy and that's a sin in their holy book.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/10/2014 4:31:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:53:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

Like I said, different branch. Militant atheists would rather make pushy statements about religion being nothing but a gateway to ignorance and violence when people like me are very open minded and reasonable.
Firstly, calling someone a "militant atheists" is like calling someone a "militant solarist" simply because they adhere to a belief that the sun exists. Theism is devoid of supporting evidence, just as a belief that the sun doesn't exist is devoid of objective evidence.

Secondly, you're attempting to suggest that less popular versions of religion are the source of the problems. Are the Crusades and Inquisition examples of a "different branch"? I suppose if one wanted to look back to the once popular pagan religions, it was that new Christianity at fault for all of the wars, persecution, torture, hatred and death.

I am a Christian Anarchist that advocates for absolute peace and pacifism as teached by Leo Tolstoy who was a great inspiration to Gandhi who was peaceful Hindu. Martin Luther King Jr. was a peaceful Christian who advocated civil rights.

Anything wrong with these instances?

Have you not noticed that you're a member of one of the "different branches"? Religion teaches people to remain rigidly loyal to a given belief, without regard for objective evidence to the contrary. That's the very definition of "closed-minded". You claimed you were "open minded and reasonable", and yet, you clearly don't understand what the terms mean. It is NEVER "reasonable" to adhere to the belief supported by less evidence. It is always "reasonable" to adhere to that conclusion which is most supported by the evidence. So no belief of faith is EVER "reasonable".

To be "open-minded" means to be ready and willing to accept alternative beliefs if they are supported by the objective evidence and to be willing to dismiss beliefs one has formerly held if they are found to be less consistent with the objective evidence.

To be "closed-minded" means to reject an alternative idea, even if it has the support of the majority of the objective evidence.

Religions and all forms of faith-based belief are constructed on the false premise that it is a virtue to remain rigidly closed-minded. And that's where the difficulty begins. It's the basis for all bigotry, persecution and elitism.

Religion is the motivation for more war, terrorism, persecution and unapologetic barbarity than any other single cause in the history of mankind. To suggest that it isn't harmful is - as has been pointed out - an example of shameful ignorance.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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7/10/2014 4:43:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 4:31:23 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:53:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

Like I said, different branch. Militant atheists would rather make pushy statements about religion being nothing but a gateway to ignorance and violence when people like me are very open minded and reasonable.
Firstly, calling someone a "militant atheists" is like calling someone a "militant solarist" simply because they adhere to a belief that the sun exists. Theism is devoid of supporting evidence, just as a belief that the sun doesn't exist is devoid of objective evidence.

Secondly, you're attempting to suggest that less popular versions of religion are the source of the problems. Are the Crusades and Inquisition examples of a "different branch"? I suppose if one wanted to look back to the once popular pagan religions, it was that new Christianity at fault for all of the wars, persecution, torture, hatred and death.

I am a Christian Anarchist that advocates for absolute peace and pacifism as teached by Leo Tolstoy who was a great inspiration to Gandhi who was peaceful Hindu. Martin Luther King Jr. was a peaceful Christian who advocated civil rights.

Anything wrong with these instances?

Have you not noticed that you're a member of one of the "different branches"? Religion teaches people to remain rigidly loyal to a given belief, without regard for objective evidence to the contrary. That's the very definition of "closed-minded". You claimed you were "open minded and reasonable", and yet, you clearly don't understand what the terms mean. It is NEVER "reasonable" to adhere to the belief supported by less evidence. It is always "reasonable" to adhere to that conclusion which is most supported by the evidence. So no belief of faith is EVER "reasonable".

To be "open-minded" means to be ready and willing to accept alternative beliefs if they are supported by the objective evidence and to be willing to dismiss beliefs one has formerly held if they are found to be less consistent with the objective evidence.

To be "closed-minded" means to reject an alternative idea, even if it has the support of the majority of the objective evidence.

Religions and all forms of faith-based belief are constructed on the false premise that it is a virtue to remain rigidly closed-minded. And that's where the difficulty begins. It's the basis for all bigotry, persecution and elitism.

Religion is the motivation for more war, terrorism, persecution and unapologetic barbarity than any other single cause in the history of mankind. To suggest that it isn't harmful is - as has been pointed out - an example of shameful ignorance.

Where does the bible or Koran say to be ignorant?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/10/2014 5:04:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 4:43:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 7/10/2014 4:31:23 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:53:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

Like I said, different branch. Militant atheists would rather make pushy statements about religion being nothing but a gateway to ignorance and violence when people like me are very open minded and reasonable.
Firstly, calling someone a "militant atheists" is like calling someone a "militant solarist" simply because they adhere to a belief that the sun exists. Theism is devoid of supporting evidence, just as a belief that the sun doesn't exist is devoid of objective evidence.

Secondly, you're attempting to suggest that less popular versions of religion are the source of the problems. Are the Crusades and Inquisition examples of a "different branch"? I suppose if one wanted to look back to the once popular pagan religions, it was that new Christianity at fault for all of the wars, persecution, torture, hatred and death.

I am a Christian Anarchist that advocates for absolute peace and pacifism as teached by Leo Tolstoy who was a great inspiration to Gandhi who was peaceful Hindu. Martin Luther King Jr. was a peaceful Christian who advocated civil rights.

Anything wrong with these instances?

Have you not noticed that you're a member of one of the "different branches"? Religion teaches people to remain rigidly loyal to a given belief, without regard for objective evidence to the contrary. That's the very definition of "closed-minded". You claimed you were "open minded and reasonable", and yet, you clearly don't understand what the terms mean. It is NEVER "reasonable" to adhere to the belief supported by less evidence. It is always "reasonable" to adhere to that conclusion which is most supported by the evidence. So no belief of faith is EVER "reasonable".

To be "open-minded" means to be ready and willing to accept alternative beliefs if they are supported by the objective evidence and to be willing to dismiss beliefs one has formerly held if they are found to be less consistent with the objective evidence.

To be "closed-minded" means to reject an alternative idea, even if it has the support of the majority of the objective evidence.

Religions and all forms of faith-based belief are constructed on the false premise that it is a virtue to remain rigidly closed-minded. And that's where the difficulty begins. It's the basis for all bigotry, persecution and elitism.

Religion is the motivation for more war, terrorism, persecution and unapologetic barbarity than any other single cause in the history of mankind. To suggest that it isn't harmful is - as has been pointed out - an example of shameful ignorance.

Where does the bible or Koran say to be ignorant?

Ecclesiastes 12:12 "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
YYW
Posts: 36,392
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7/10/2014 5:04:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

And you blame all of these problems on religion?
Tsar of DDO
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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7/10/2014 6:14:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

How its religion fault? the palestinians fighting for their land, and the *secular* jews claim the land belong to them. both are fighting for land
Never fart near dog
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/10/2014 6:19:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Following what Christ taught can only be beneficial, not just for the individual but for humanity as a whole.

Following Christ brings peace and unity globally, and only following CHrist and his teachings can do that.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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7/10/2014 6:38:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
World woes aren"t based on religion or system of beliefs, but religions and systems of belief are used to justify world woes. Even the Nazis had developed some kind of system of belief or religion based on a mixed bag of past pagan type religions. Men seek clarifications to promote justification for group, family and or national pursuits that are not normally peaceful means. Existing religions or, in the Nazis" case, revisited, provide that. Life is lived, but mankind"s justification to do otherwise seems to be in their interpretations of what the people around them believe. If I walk in the life I live in peace with you and you agree to the conditions of that peace then the only cause for other than peace is to brake the agreement. And that is the cause in most cases.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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7/10/2014 7:07:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 5:04:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

And you blame all of these problems on religion?

Religion clearly shoulders a large portion of the blame, and I will make the positive claim that absent religion a large portion of these conflicts with a. Not exist or b. Be mitigated
YYW
Posts: 36,392
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7/10/2014 7:09:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 7:07:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 5:04:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

And you blame all of these problems on religion?

Religion clearly shoulders a large portion of the blame, and I will make the positive claim that absent religion a large portion of these conflicts with a. Not exist or b. Be mitigated

I don't think so. There are and have been plenty of conflicts fought over things that have nothing to do with religion throughout time and space. If not over religion, people would fight over something else.
Tsar of DDO
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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7/10/2014 7:17:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 7:09:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 7:07:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 5:04:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?

Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

And you blame all of these problems on religion?

Religion clearly shoulders a large portion of the blame, and I will make the positive claim that absent religion a large portion of these conflicts with a. Not exist or b. Be mitigated

I don't think so. There are and have been plenty of conflicts fought over things that have nothing to do with religion throughout time and space. If not over religion, people would fight over something else.

I have listed specific conflicts which have grounded and close religious ties. I never made the claim there are not conflicts that religion is irrelevant to, this is just a red herring.

The claim is that with religion, we end up with conflicts that would not, and arguably could not occur in the absense of religion.

A strong example are suicide bombings and the ISIS movement. You would have to stretch your imagination a long way to see secular individuals blowing themselves up without the promise of a blissful afterlife, or penance to a higher deity.

Moreover, we would not see the Jihadist movement to create an Islamic world without the superstitious drive that their faith gives them. Without the faith you simply do not have the drivers and personal justifications for these crimes.

Many crimes/failings are ONLY justifiable today in the context of religion. I can safely say there are precisely zero good reasons for gay discrimination unless you involk religious reasons, and the same think happened 300 years ago with slavery.

Religion institutionalises negative things in the minds of people who would not normally commit them. That much is a fact.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/10/2014 8:20:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 7:09:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 7:07:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 5:04:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?
R: : : :
Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

And you blame all of these problems on religion?

Religion clearly shoulders a large portion of the blame, and I will make the positive claim that absent religion a large portion of these conflicts with a. Not exist or b. Be mitigated

I don't think so. There are and have been plenty of conflicts fought over things that have nothing to do with religion throughout time and space. If not over religion, people would fight over something else.

If by abandoning religion the world could eliminate even 20 percent of the wars we now see, would it not be worth it? If you disagree, please explain why.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
YYW
Posts: 36,392
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7/10/2014 8:24:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 8:20:04 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/10/2014 7:09:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 7:07:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 5:04:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/10/2014 3:13:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 7/10/2014 2:37:29 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I really don't see much of the harm except that most crimes committed by religion are by people who have followed a very different branch of their doctrine.

Um...

Israel-Palestine?

ISIS?

The Lebanese civil war?

Nigeria?

Taliban?
R: : : :
Boko Haram?

Seems like an awfully ignorant OP...

And you blame all of these problems on religion?

Religion clearly shoulders a large portion of the blame, and I will make the positive claim that absent religion a large portion of these conflicts with a. Not exist or b. Be mitigated

I don't think so. There are and have been plenty of conflicts fought over things that have nothing to do with religion throughout time and space. If not over religion, people would fight over something else.

If by abandoning religion the world could eliminate even 20 percent of the wars we now see, would it not be worth it? If you disagree, please explain why.

Two problems:

1. If people are not fighting about religion, they will fight about something else.
2. There is no way to remove religion from this earth, so arguing this point is a waste of time.

And a bonus:

Religion does a lot of good too, which is often overlooked by atheists who ignorantly point to conflicts in the middle east (or other conflicts which are ostensibly over religious differences) and blame religion in a general sense for all that's gone wrong. Even if that was the case, which it's not necessarily, you're arguing with only half the facts.
Tsar of DDO
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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7/10/2014 9:09:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 4:21:13 PM, Praesentya wrote:
Aside from all the abhorrent crimes posted above - which are all based on the interpretation of religion - religion itself is harmful, in my opinion.

Can you imagine how much more advanced society would be if Christianity didn't exist - thus the Dark Ages didn't exist?

Christianity had what to do with the Dark Ages exactly? Can you name me a scientist burned at the stake or censored by the Church at the time?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/10/2014 9:51:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 9:09:37 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 7/10/2014 4:21:13 PM, Praesentya wrote:
Aside from all the abhorrent crimes posted above - which are all based on the interpretation of religion - religion itself is harmful, in my opinion.

Can you imagine how much more advanced society would be if Christianity didn't exist - thus the Dark Ages didn't exist?

Christianity had what to do with the Dark Ages exactly?
It flourished and spread in the Dark Ages and carries with it, common Dark Ages dogma and barbarity.

Can you name me a scientist burned at the stake or censored by the Church at the time?
Well, the Dark Ages are generally accepted to be 5th century to 15th century and the emergence of science as an actual methodology is set to the time of Galileo. So it's kind of a trick question. Certainly, there have been men attempting to learn of the nature of reality for centuries prior to then, but it's questionable as to whether or not any can be called "scientists". But both Giordano Bruno who engaged in scientific discovery and Galileo Galilei lived in the 1500s-1600s. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake by the church for refusing to renounce his belief in other planets around other stars, possibly with forms of life. And it wasn't the usual strangulation followed by burning the corpse in a symbolic gesture. Bruno was tied to a stake and literally burned to death because the gods of religious people are always just as barbaric as they are.

Galileo, of course, wasn't executed; he was just publicly humiliated, forced to renounce his findings, had his work hidden from the eyes of the public and then lived out the last 9-years of his life under house arrest as a dangerous criminal. Had the church still been in charge, Darwin would likely have faced a similar fate.

Fortunately, we are (slowly) emerging from the age of forced ignorance and fear of knowledge. But it is from that era that nearly all religion has risen.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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7/10/2014 10:59:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh my goodness, when will people learn.

The vast majority of all conflicts aren't primarily religiously motivated, they are motivated by secular concepts, like nationalism, revenge, wealth, and influence. This nonsense that religion is "harmful" is just that, nonsense.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.