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God's love is compatible with his justice

Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...
slo1
Posts: 4,341
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7/11/2014 4:19:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

Wrong.

It is very clear non-belief in Jesus Christ and not being baptized is what gets one condemned to hell. Sin has nothing to do with it, non-belief does.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/11/2014 4:53:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful.
But I would say that God is evil for punishing innocent children, women, infants and animals and he can't be merciful because he's supposed to be just.
Justice is providing the exact punishment earned.
Mercy is to provide less punishment than is earned.
They're mutually exclusive so God can't be both. And in the Bible, he is neither.

I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law.
Then it is his law which demands you go to Hell.

God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven!
In other words, you have to accept a barbaric injustice and then you are welcomed into God's kingdom of injustice and bloodshed.

not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair?
Not in the least. If not sinning is the price of Heaven, and Hell is the price of sin, then anyone who doesn't sin should be in Heaven, and anyone paying the price for sins should be in Hell.
- But Christianity claims Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins, yet isn't in Hell.
- And Christianity claims that all of the people who have sinned, will go to Heaven if they accept the barbaric injustice of punishing the innocent.

that's more than fair!
It has nothing to do with fairness. It's pure injustice. If you commit a rape, YOU have to serve the penalty. It's an injustice to send a virgin to prison to serve your sentence, while you go back on the street to rape more people.

Because we were meant to die in our sins,
Then God has created us, only so we can be punished.

but thanks to grace, we are alive!
But you think you've cashed in on God's extortion plans, and through a barbaric miscarriage of justice, have escaped God's law.

The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that.
I can't reject what has never been offered. All you have is a story - a ridiculous story filled with barbarity, injustice, contradictions and false claims.

why do people go to hell?
According to the Bible, it's because God planned it that way. He's supposed to be omniscient, so he knew before creating the universe that more than two-thirds of all of his "most beloved creation" would end up in his most barbaric torture chamber.

It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.
We can't reject what we don't have. And we don't have any "gospel of Christ". Firstly, it's not good news that you have to be complicit in a miscarriage of justice to escape eternal torment. Secondly, none of the gospels were written by Jesus, or by anyone who knew Jesus. And they were selected by men in the 4th century, who didn't know Jesus, didn't know what was or wasn't true, and didn't even know anyone who knew Jesus.

you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this.
Incorrect. Anytime your design fails, it is your fault and not the fault of that which you designed. It works the same for God.

You are responsible for your actions,
Not according to Christianity. According to Christianity, Jesus took responsibility for our actions. Did you forget what you just told us?

therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...
But again, there is no "gospel of Christ". But the whole thing is an absurd fairytale, and you have nothing to show that it isn't.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
jh1234l
Posts: 580
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7/11/2014 9:54:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

What about the innocent egyptian children killed in the Old Testament? Or the fact that the reason that these children were killed was because the Pharaoh enslaved Israellites, and the only reason the Pharaoh kept them was because God hardened his heart? The innocent children were not given the chance to get saved, and were they evil doers too?
My political compass:
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1 square right of Nelson Mandela, 2 squares down from Francois Hollande
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/11/2014 10:03:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 9:54:35 PM, jh1234l wrote:
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

What about the innocent egyptian children killed in the Old Testament? Or the fact that the reason that these children were killed was because the Pharaoh enslaved Israellites, and the only reason the Pharaoh kept them was because God hardened his heart? The innocent children were not given the chance to get saved, and were they evil doers too?

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so the deaths of those children were on him.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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7/11/2014 11:03:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 10:03:41 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/11/2014 9:54:35 PM, jh1234l wrote:
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

What about the innocent egyptian children killed in the Old Testament? Or the fact that the reason that these children were killed was because the Pharaoh enslaved Israellites, and the only reason the Pharaoh kept them was because God hardened his heart? The innocent children were not given the chance to get saved, and were they evil doers too?

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so the deaths of those children were on him.

Is that so?
Here are just 4, wanna see more?

10:20 But Jehovah hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
10:10 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I may show these my signs in the midst of them,
10:27 But Jehovah hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
9:12 And Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken unto Moses.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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7/11/2014 11:32:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

We're all going to shed our blood and die in this age so there's no reason for any of God's prophets or saints to die for our sins. This teaching comes from antichrists and false prophets who didn't know our invisible Creator or what a saint is. They thought the saints were false prophets who were giving them a bad time for building their false gods and worshiping false deities in their minds. These antichrists formed the religion of Christianity by using their religious ideas mixed with some words they stole from the saints before the Roman government had them killed.

God already planned the salvation of ALL His people from their wicked flesh and this world by the end of this age. On the day of the Lord, God planned on killing the rest of man's flesh to end this age by making the earth shake violently right before the lava blows through the earth's crust and melts it into a lake of fire.

If Christians knew our Creator, they would have been taught the true meanings of His prophecies that He had His prophets write. They would have learned all about the end of this age that will destroy all flesh before the New Heaven and Earth are formed for us to experience eternal life.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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7/11/2014 11:33:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:19:52 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

Wrong.

It is very clear non-belief in Jesus Christ and not being baptized is what gets one condemned to hell. Sin has nothing to do with it, non-belief does.

If there was a hell, all Christians would be sent to it for believing in a false deity and building there false gods that were against the commandments of God.
Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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7/12/2014 3:05:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I won't go into everything because it looks like Truth_seeker already lost this debate.

- jh1234l 4
What about the innocent egyptian children killed in the Old Testament? Or the fact that the reason that these children were killed was because the Pharaoh enslaved Israellites, and the only reason the Pharaoh kept them was because God hardened his heart? The innocent children were not given the chance to get saved, and were they evil doers too?
- Truth_seeker
Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so the deaths of those children were on him.
Ignoring that the Bible disagrees with you, let's assume the pharaoh did harden his own heart. I would like to know how you assign responsibility (blame) for the death of the first-born. After all, it was God who killed them. Can you present us the rules/principles of assigning responsibility that lead you to the conclusion of the pharaoh being guilty and God being innocent ?

I think your set of rules must have one of the following two flaws :
- It is not reasonable, meaning not applicable in a just, civilized, society
- It is biased in favour of God
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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7/12/2014 9:02:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

I have one question, in the face of such a deranged view of "justice":

If a person lives a moral, highly ethical life, but never accepts the jeebus, is "hell" still the ultimate destination for that one? You're telling me that a murderous pedophile that sincerely repents of his behavior and "accepts" the jeebus merits eternal life, while a philanthropic human that accepts no "savior" merits eternal "damnation?" Is this his "justice?"

I understand that this is an extreme polar comparison, but this is truly unjust. This is completely imbalanced, in the extreme.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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7/12/2014 9:19:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 9:02:56 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

I have one question, in the face of such a deranged view of "justice":

If a person lives a moral, highly ethical life, but never accepts the jeebus, is "hell" still the ultimate destination for that one? You're telling me that a murderous pedophile that sincerely repents of his behavior and "accepts" the jeebus merits eternal life, while a philanthropic human that accepts no "savior" merits eternal "damnation?" Is this his "justice?"

I understand that this is an extreme polar comparison, but this is truly unjust. This is completely imbalanced, in the extreme.

You can't expect believers to understand the disgusting nature of the god they have had created for them. Poor believers are incapable of understanding the difference in what their story tells in comparison to what reality tells.

If you are indoctrinated with the belief that the slaughter of babies is a morally acceptable position, then chances are you will believe that infanticide is morally justified.

Bible believers can be easily convinced to kill anybody including unborn babies. Thanks god.

Bible believers are abortion proponents, as is their god that commands them for such.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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7/12/2014 10:42:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/12/2014 9:19:08 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/12/2014 9:02:56 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 7/11/2014 4:18:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Many would say that God is evil for punishing evil doers in an eternity of hell and so he cannot be all merciful. I beg to differ, your sins are what cause you to go to hell according to his law. God's law requires the shedding of blood for the remission of sins. If Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, became the atonement for your sins, all you have to do is accept him and you are forgiven! not only that, but you get to spend in eternity in heaven!Fair? that's more than fair! Because we were meant to die in our sins, but thanks to grace, we are alive! The law was meant to be our school teacher until the coming of Christ.if anyone rejects Christ, he will be judged based on that. why do people go to hell? It's because they simply reject the gospel of Christ.you can argue "well Adam did this and that, God is evil for making me like this .. " ultimately, you make yourself like this. You are responsible for your actions, therefore you must respond to the gospel of Christ. All men shall not be justified in their excuses on the day of judgement...

I have one question, in the face of such a deranged view of "justice":

If a person lives a moral, highly ethical life, but never accepts the jeebus, is "hell" still the ultimate destination for that one? You're telling me that a murderous pedophile that sincerely repents of his behavior and "accepts" the jeebus merits eternal life, while a philanthropic human that accepts no "savior" merits eternal "damnation?" Is this his "justice?"

I understand that this is an extreme polar comparison, but this is truly unjust. This is completely imbalanced, in the extreme.

You can't expect believers to understand the disgusting nature of the god they have had created for them. Poor believers are incapable of understanding the difference in what their story tells in comparison to what reality tells.

I don't "expect" anything, dude. I fully understand that accepting the definitions required for christian belief requires intentional acceptance of contradiction. What I don't understand is how they can fully expect those of us who have completely demonstrated why they will never accept such contradiction to treat them as though their drivel should be considered. You, Beastt, AB, DU, and a slew others have shown, time and time again, just why their biblebabblewoowoo delusion is something we can't swallow. Still, they argue as though their beliefs are reasonable/rational. They argue absolute nonsense, as though their imaginary spirit-daddy could actually be something other than fairydust wishes...

If you are indoctrinated with the belief that the slaughter of babies is a morally acceptable position, then chances are you will believe that infanticide is morally justified.

See, I was indoctrinated, and at a very young age. The bible was the first book I was given, to read. By the time I hit puberty, I had long since rejected the book as irrational and evil.

Bible believers can be easily convinced to kill anybody including unborn babies. Thanks god.

No, the "unborn babies" are something for which they will take any other life. Unless, of course, that unborn baby happens to be inside a woman that has been deemed to merit death. In such a case, their gawd would completely sanction abortion via motherkill.

Bible believers are abortion proponents, as is their god that commands them for such.

I knew that decades ago. What I don't understand is how this can be labeled "justice," with a straight face...
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.