Total Posts:42|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Near death experiences of God. Real or not?

Benshapiro
Posts: 3,965
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason. These hallucinations (which is what they are), result from the chemical imbalances in the brain as oxygen levels begin to fall. This sets off a cascade of alterations to the normal chemical states in our brains, and after all, our brains function on electro-chemical properties. So, while the experiences were as real to him as the keyboard sitting on your desk, the perceptions were all a function of his brain, rather than signals from his sensory organs to his brain.

Strokes can also manifest in bizarre alterations to normal perception. We take it for granted that we know the spacial orientation of our bodies. But many stroke victims can lose that perception, and thusly don't know where they hand stops, and a table, a lamp or a telephone begins. And while this subject states that he held no specific belief in God prior to the incident, he openly admitted to knowing about Christianity, God, Jesus etc. So it's no surprise that his stored images which he connects with these things, emerged at a time when he believed he was going to die, and was indeed, in the process of dying.

NDEs are real. But they're only real hallucinations - malfunctions of the brain. They're not evidence of God, Heaven, Jesus, other gods or an afterlife.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 7:11:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason. These hallucinations (which is what they are), result from the chemical imbalances in the brain as oxygen levels begin to fall. This sets off a cascade of alterations to the normal chemical states in our brains, and after all, our brains function on electro-chemical properties. So, while the experiences were as real to him as the keyboard sitting on your desk, the perceptions were all a function of his brain, rather than signals from his sensory organs to his brain.

Strokes can also manifest in bizarre alterations to normal perception. We take it for granted that we know the spacial orientation of our bodies. But many stroke victims can lose that perception, and thusly don't know where they hand stops, and a table, a lamp or a telephone begins. And while this subject states that he held no specific belief in God prior to the incident, he openly admitted to knowing about Christianity, God, Jesus etc. So it's no surprise that his stored images which he connects with these things, emerged at a time when he believed he was going to die, and was indeed, in the process of dying.

NDEs are real. But they're only real hallucinations - malfunctions of the brain. They're not evidence of God, Heaven, Jesus, other gods or an afterlife.

I do not think NDE can tell us anything. Except that humans have a built in desire and innate need for God.

Hold to that conviction Beastt. When you see the tunnel, Remember it is just an hallucination.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 7:22:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 7:11:33 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason. These hallucinations (which is what they are), result from the chemical imbalances in the brain as oxygen levels begin to fall. This sets off a cascade of alterations to the normal chemical states in our brains, and after all, our brains function on electro-chemical properties. So, while the experiences were as real to him as the keyboard sitting on your desk, the perceptions were all a function of his brain, rather than signals from his sensory organs to his brain.

Strokes can also manifest in bizarre alterations to normal perception. We take it for granted that we know the spacial orientation of our bodies. But many stroke victims can lose that perception, and thusly don't know where they hand stops, and a table, a lamp or a telephone begins. And while this subject states that he held no specific belief in God prior to the incident, he openly admitted to knowing about Christianity, God, Jesus etc. So it's no surprise that his stored images which he connects with these things, emerged at a time when he believed he was going to die, and was indeed, in the process of dying.

NDEs are real. But they're only real hallucinations - malfunctions of the brain. They're not evidence of God, Heaven, Jesus, other gods or an afterlife.

I do not think NDE can tell us anything. Except that humans have a built in desire and innate need for God.

Hold to that conviction Beastt. When you see the tunnel, Remember it is just an hallucination.

Then explain why administering ketamine causes the same manifestation, and is known to be the result of the chemical imbalances resulting from blocking glutamate receptors.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 7:26:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

The NDEs are real, but the perceived origin of them is not (divine origin). NDEs are known to often have a profound effect on someone's life, they are pretty interesting to study the after-effects of, especially of those who are believers.
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 7:47:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What atheists relying on chemicals to "explain" n.d.e.'s forget, like ketamine, is that no chemically active substance known is able to produce specific hallucinations that fall within a recognized religious framework. Ketamine and spinning astronauts may give a tunnel sensation but so does getting drunk as a skunk. I've had enough experience with hallucinogenic drugs and spiritual revelation to know chemicals do not explain at all what's happening, they are only by-products of experience of another dimension. I experienced what the Hindus call "maya", seeing the world as illusion for three full days during my original religious conversion experience and this anchors my faith as it drove my prior atheist beliefs totally away, never to return to the lesser atheist consciousness devoid of spiritual awareness and spiritual events.

Then there's the other mystery of n.d.e.s that again atheists do not consider which is the fact that n.d.e.s counter biological instinct to survive. Why on earth would "Nature" instill a psychological consciousness of dying that takes the sting completely away from death when animal instincts are always to survive which is why we feel pain to avoid unnecessary death. The coupling of my own experience of maya and the n.d.e. literature makes the atheist position impossible to hold now that I know this world is not the end all of life.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 7:49:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 7:22:57 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 7:11:33 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason. These hallucinations (which is what they are), result from the chemical imbalances in the brain as oxygen levels begin to fall. This sets off a cascade of alterations to the normal chemical states in our brains, and after all, our brains function on electro-chemical properties. So, while the experiences were as real to him as the keyboard sitting on your desk, the perceptions were all a function of his brain, rather than signals from his sensory organs to his brain.

Strokes can also manifest in bizarre alterations to normal perception. We take it for granted that we know the spacial orientation of our bodies. But many stroke victims can lose that perception, and thusly don't know where they hand stops, and a table, a lamp or a telephone begins. And while this subject states that he held no specific belief in God prior to the incident, he openly admitted to knowing about Christianity, God, Jesus etc. So it's no surprise that his stored images which he connects with these things, emerged at a time when he believed he was going to die, and was indeed, in the process of dying.

NDEs are real. But they're only real hallucinations - malfunctions of the brain. They're not evidence of God, Heaven, Jesus, other gods or an afterlife.

I do not think NDE can tell us anything. Except that humans have a built in desire and innate need for God.

Hold to that conviction Beastt. When you see the tunnel, Remember it is just an hallucination.

Then explain why administering ketamine causes the same manifestation, and is known to be the result of the chemical imbalances resulting from blocking glutamate receptors.

Same way you described it.

Administering Ketamine to a subject will cause them to have hallucinations. Which is why it is a recreational drug used for hallucinations.

So that is some awesome ground breaking science there. Give someone a controlled narcotic and in some cases they have hallucinations.

Specifically:

1. feelings of peace and contentment;
2. a sense of detachment from the body;
3. entering a transitional world of darkness (rapid movements through tunnels: 'the tunnel experience');
4. emerging into bright light; and
5. 'entering the light'.

60% get to stage 1. Only 10% of subjects get to stage 5.

You are right Ketamine is a glutamate blocker and can help in the preservation of neurons in low oxygen situations.

NOW that we have the science out of the way. we only need to .. what is it you call that Beastt??? oh yes to count as evidence there has to be a "demonstrable" link.

So if Ketamine causes some of that list of feelings to some people. And some people having NDE's have some of those traits. the only thing left to confirm a demonstrable link past speculation and /or the null hypothesis is a distinguishable characteristic either physical or statistical.

So what natural chemical does the brain release that is like ketamine, is a glutemate blocker, and can be released in a low oxygen brain???

Just one word. The naturally produced brain chemical please.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 8:09:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 7:47:23 PM, skinker wrote:
What atheists relying on chemicals to "explain" n.d.e.'s forget, like ketamine, is that no chemically active substance known is able to produce specific hallucinations that fall within a recognized religious framework. Ketamine and spinning astronauts may give a tunnel sensation but so does getting drunk as a skunk. I've had enough experience with hallucinogenic drugs and spiritual revelation to know chemicals do not explain at all what's happening, they are only by-products of experience of another dimension. I experienced what the Hindus call "maya", seeing the world as illusion for three full days during my original religious conversion experience and this anchors my faith as it drove my prior atheist beliefs totally away, never to return to the lesser atheist consciousness devoid of spiritual awareness and spiritual events.

Then there's the other mystery of n.d.e.s that again atheists do not consider which is the fact that n.d.e.s counter biological instinct to survive. Why on earth would "Nature" instill a psychological consciousness of dying that takes the sting completely away from death when animal instincts are always to survive which is why we feel pain to avoid unnecessary death. The coupling of my own experience of maya and the n.d.e. literature makes the atheist position impossible to hold now that I know this world is not the end all of life.

Agreed it's like this.

Giving people prussic acid causes a heart attack and death.

This explains why people have heart attacks.

Just stop the body from producing a cyanide prussic acid type chemical and people will not have heart attacks. We do not know what that chemical is, so far none is known to be like prussic acid.

That is the Atheist reasoning. By taking a chemical not produced in the body, you can generate similar experiences. Because something FAKE can be induced in people with the foreign chemical... therefore that means the naturally occurring events are FAKE as well. seems legit doesn't it?
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 8:37:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hallucinatory drugs produce hallucinations but ask the people who have those drug hallucinations if they are coming to them couched in biblical terms and symbolism. Drugs don't read the Bible yet n.d.e.s are filled with well-known Christian religious imagery, how and why the specific religious imagery? And really, why n.d.e.s in the first place when biology says fear death as the end of existence.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 8:47:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 8:37:37 PM, skinker wrote:
Hallucinatory drugs produce hallucinations but ask the people who have those drug hallucinations if they are coming to them couched in biblical terms and symbolism. Drugs don't read the Bible yet n.d.e.s are filled with well-known Christian religious imagery, how and why the specific religious imagery? And really, why n.d.e.s in the first place when biology says fear death as the end of existence.

Actually I did some study on this a couple of years ago. The imagery is not always christian. There are some big differences in NDEs to people of orthodox Jews and Hindus.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 9:03:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

NDE's have been explained by science for a LONG time. If NDE's were evidence then there would be MANY religions that are real... but that cannot be since a lot of religions require other religions to be wrong.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 9:32:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 7:49:03 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 7:22:57 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 7:11:33 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason. These hallucinations (which is what they are), result from the chemical imbalances in the brain as oxygen levels begin to fall. This sets off a cascade of alterations to the normal chemical states in our brains, and after all, our brains function on electro-chemical properties. So, while the experiences were as real to him as the keyboard sitting on your desk, the perceptions were all a function of his brain, rather than signals from his sensory organs to his brain.

Strokes can also manifest in bizarre alterations to normal perception. We take it for granted that we know the spacial orientation of our bodies. But many stroke victims can lose that perception, and thusly don't know where they hand stops, and a table, a lamp or a telephone begins. And while this subject states that he held no specific belief in God prior to the incident, he openly admitted to knowing about Christianity, God, Jesus etc. So it's no surprise that his stored images which he connects with these things, emerged at a time when he believed he was going to die, and was indeed, in the process of dying.

NDEs are real. But they're only real hallucinations - malfunctions of the brain. They're not evidence of God, Heaven, Jesus, other gods or an afterlife.

I do not think NDE can tell us anything. Except that humans have a built in desire and innate need for God.

Hold to that conviction Beastt. When you see the tunnel, Remember it is just an hallucination.

Then explain why administering ketamine causes the same manifestation, and is known to be the result of the chemical imbalances resulting from blocking glutamate receptors.

Same way you described it.

Administering Ketamine to a subject will cause them to have hallucinations. Which is why it is a recreational drug used for hallucinations.

So that is some awesome ground breaking science there. Give someone a controlled narcotic and in some cases they have hallucinations.

Specifically:

1. feelings of peace and contentment;
2. a sense of detachment from the body;
3. entering a transitional world of darkness (rapid movements through tunnels: 'the tunnel experience');
4. emerging into bright light; and
5. 'entering the light'.

60% get to stage 1. Only 10% of subjects get to stage 5.

You are right Ketamine is a glutamate blocker and can help in the preservation of neurons in low oxygen situations.

NOW that we have the science out of the way. we only need to .. what is it you call that Beastt??? oh yes to count as evidence there has to be a "demonstrable" link.

So if Ketamine causes some of that list of feelings to some people. And some people having NDE's have some of those traits. the only thing left to confirm a demonstrable link past speculation and /or the null hypothesis is a distinguishable characteristic either physical or statistical.

So what natural chemical does the brain release that is like ketamine, is a glutemate blocker, and can be released in a low oxygen brain???

Just one word. The naturally produced brain chemical please.
And you somehow think such an explanation should be just one word? What did I already say, "a cascade of chemical imbalances", right? And you think that is properly explained in one word?

The reality here is that you're so afraid of the truth, that you're attempting to present conditionals which completely prevent the explanation from being provided. But you have two problems...

1. The explanation has already been provided
2. I don't care what conditions you propose. If they're as ridiculous as what you just proposed, I'll simply ignore them.

Now let's straighten you out on a few things. Firstly, it doesn't provide "some of the traits" of an NDE. It an replicate ALL of the traits of an NDE. And the demonstrative part comes in where we recognize that the brain operates on electro-chemical principles, and in both cases, we're dealing with a disruption of the normal chemical balance. And in both cases, we get the very same results. And these include - IN BOTH CASES;

- The notice of a very unpleasant sound or noise.

- A sense/awareness of being dead.

- A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A feeling of being removed from the world.

- An out-of-body experience. A perception of one"s body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.

- A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.

- A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.

- An intense feeling of unconditional love.

- Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or other spiritual beings. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.

- Being given a life review.

- Being presented with knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.

- A decision by oneself or others to return to one"s body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.

- Approaching a border.

So there you have it, demonstration, explanation and replication. Of course, you'll still deny it because you deny absolutely everything which disagrees with your unevidenced pre-conceptions. You don't want to know the truth, because the truth isn't what you wish it to be.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 9:54:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 9:32:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 7:49:03 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 7:22:57 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 7:11:33 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Strokes can also manifest in bizarre alterations to normal perception. We take it for granted that we know the spacial orientation of our bodies. But many stroke victims can lose that perception, and thusly don't know where they hand stops, and a table, a lamp or a telephone begins. And while this subject states that he held no specific belief in God prior to the incident, he openly admitted to knowing about Christianity, God, Jesus etc. So it's no surprise that his stored images which he connects with these things, emerged at a time when he believed he was going to die, and was indeed, in the process of dying.

NDEs are real. But they're only real hallucinations - malfunctions of the brain. They're not evidence of God, Heaven, Jesus, other gods or an afterlife.

I do not think NDE can tell us anything. Except that humans have a built in desire and innate need for God.

Hold to that conviction Beastt. When you see the tunnel, Remember it is just an hallucination.

Then explain why administering ketamine causes the same manifestation, and is known to be the result of the chemical imbalances resulting from blocking glutamate receptors.

Same way you described it.

Administering Ketamine to a subject will cause them to have hallucinations. Which is why it is a recreational drug used for hallucinations.

So that is some awesome ground breaking science there. Give someone a controlled narcotic and in some cases they have hallucinations.

Specifically:

1. feelings of peace and contentment;
2. a sense of detachment from the body;
3. entering a transitional world of darkness (rapid movements through tunnels: 'the tunnel experience');
4. emerging into bright light; and
5. 'entering the light'.

60% get to stage 1. Only 10% of subjects get to stage 5.

You are right Ketamine is a glutamate blocker and can help in the preservation of neurons in low oxygen situations.

NOW that we have the science out of the way. we only need to .. what is it you call that Beastt??? oh yes to count as evidence there has to be a "demonstrable" link.

So if Ketamine causes some of that list of feelings to some people. And some people having NDE's have some of those traits. the only thing left to confirm a demonstrable link past speculation and /or the null hypothesis is a distinguishable characteristic either physical or statistical.

So what natural chemical does the brain release that is like ketamine, is a glutemate blocker, and can be released in a low oxygen brain???

Just one word. The naturally produced brain chemical please.
And you somehow think such an explanation should be just one word? What did I already say, "a cascade of chemical imbalances", right? And you think that is properly explained in one word?

The reality here is that you're so afraid of the truth, that you're attempting to present conditionals which completely prevent the explanation from being provided. But you have two problems...

1. The explanation has already been provided
2. I don't care what conditions you propose. If they're as ridiculous as what you just proposed, I'll simply ignore them.

Now let's straighten you out on a few things. Firstly, it doesn't provide "some of the traits" of an NDE. It an replicate ALL of the traits of an NDE.

No. Completely subjective there is no established list of objective traits that describe NDE's. What I presented was the list of effects the experimenter was testing for. It is some common NDE. Then as for ALL of those traits listed, that effect was only in 10% of subjects.

And the demonstrative part comes in where we recognize that the brain operates on electro-chemical principles, and in both cases, we're dealing with a disruption of the normal chemical balance. And in both cases, we get the very same results. And these include - IN BOTH CASES;

Sleep deprivation causes hallucinations and out of body experiences as well. Messed up brain chemictry cuases people to perceive things incorrectly. That is not ground breaking science. The ketamine shows one process to cuase a particular type of hallucination. The demonstratble link would be to show how that is possible in a dieing brain that does not have an injection of ketamine.

Why is that hard for you to understand? Ketamine = A causes C by way of B. Where is the experiment showing that: Brain dieing = A causes C by way of B. "B" has not been shown to occur in the brain!


- The notice of a very unpleasant sound or noise.

Yeah drugs will do that. paranoia


- A sense/awareness of being dead.

- A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A feeling of being removed from the world.

- An out-of-body experience. A perception of one"s body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.

- A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.

- A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.

- An intense feeling of unconditional love.

- Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or other spiritual beings. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.

- Being given a life review.

Show me where this happened with the use of Ketamine.


- Being presented with knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.

- A decision by oneself or others to return to one"s body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.

- Approaching a border.

So there you have it, demonstration, explanation and replication. Of course, you'll still deny it because you deny absolutely everything which disagrees with your unevidenced pre-conceptions. You don't want to know the truth, because the truth isn't what you wish it to be.

No you have demonstrated chemicals foreign to the body CAN cause a trippy drug induced high. I'm asking to demonstrate the same result without a foreign chemical.

What is the demonstrable between Ketamine causing hallucinations in the brain

AND

The perception the brain has during an NDE.

OBVIOUSLY the experiment proves that gutemate blockage can cause similar visual hallucinations and perceptions.

What has NOT BEEN DEMONSTRATED is how the brain duplicates these perceptions WITHOUT the ketamine.

Fine, do not give me 1 chemical that is like Ketamine. SHOW ME the evidence that the brain produces a gutemate blocking action like Ketamine causes.

Go ahead ignore this like you do the other questions I ask that rationalwiki doesn't have answers to Beastt.

Observation of the ketamine process occurring in a live brain without said ketamine.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 10:17:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And personally I reject NDE's as spiritual revelation. But the Atheist "logic" astounds me.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 10:20:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 9:54:27 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 9:32:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
No. Completely subjective there is no established list of objective traits that describe NDE's. What I presented was the list of effects the experimenter was testing for. It is some common NDE. Then as for ALL of those traits listed, that effect was only in 10% of subjects.

And the demonstrative part comes in where we recognize that the brain operates on electro-chemical principles, and in both cases, we're dealing with a disruption of the normal chemical balance. And in both cases, we get the very same results. And these include - IN BOTH CASES;

Sleep deprivation causes hallucinations and out of body experiences as well. Messed up brain chemictry cuases people to perceive things incorrectly. That is not ground breaking science. The ketamine shows one process to cuase a particular type of hallucination. The demonstratble link would be to show how that is possible in a dieing brain that does not have an injection of ketamine.

Why is that hard for you to understand? Ketamine = A causes C by way of B. Where is the experiment showing that: Brain dieing = A causes C by way of B. "B" has not been shown to occur in the brain!
Speak English. Dying disrupts normal brain chemistry. That disruption leads to the hallucinations common to NDE reports. And it doesn't matter if the chemical balance is disrupted by drugs, or by trauma which leads to death, or near death. Either way, you get the same chemical imbalances, and the same hallucinations.


- The notice of a very unpleasant sound or noise.

Yeah drugs will do that. paranoia
So will religion - paranoia.


- A sense/awareness of being dead.

- A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A feeling of being removed from the world.

- An out-of-body experience. A perception of one"s body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.

- A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.

- A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.

- An intense feeling of unconditional love.

- Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or other spiritual beings. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.

- Being given a life review.

Show me where this happened with the use of Ketamine.
http://www.dailykos.com...#
http://www.near-death.com...


- Being presented with knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.

- A decision by oneself or others to return to one"s body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.

- Approaching a border.

So there you have it, demonstration, explanation and replication. Of course, you'll still deny it because you deny absolutely everything which disagrees with your unevidenced pre-conceptions. You don't want to know the truth, because the truth isn't what you wish it to be.

No you have demonstrated chemicals foreign to the body CAN cause a trippy drug induced high. I'm asking to demonstrate the same result without a foreign chemical.
It's not about the fact that drugs can produce these effects. The point (that you keep trying to dodge), is HOW they produce these effects. And they do so by disrupting chemical balances in the brain, just as does a lack of oxygen, such as is common as a person dies or begins to die.

What is the demonstrable between Ketamine causing hallucinations in the brain

AND

The perception the brain has during an NDE.
They are the same, and using the same unbalancing of the brains normal chemical state. THAT is the demonstrable factor (AGAIN)!

OBVIOUSLY the experiment proves that gutemate blockage can cause similar visual hallucinations and perceptions.
By creating the same kinds of chemical imbalances common during the process of brain death, even when the only chemical agent, is a decline of oxygen levels, leading to the same kind of cascading chemical imbalances.

You get exactly the same physiological effect, and exactly the same hallucinations, regardless of whether it is induced by Ketamine, or by trauma.


What has NOT BEEN DEMONSTRATED is how the brain duplicates these perceptions WITHOUT the ketamine.
Duhhhhhh! I explained that in the very first post, in the second post, and in every subsequent post. Oxygen is a key chemical for most biological functions, including the maintenance of chemical balances in the brain. When oxygen levels fall, a "cascade of chemical imbalances" begins (how many friggin' times do you have to read that before you understand it?

Fine, do not give me 1 chemical that is like Ketamine. SHOW ME the evidence that the brain produces a gutemate blocking action like Ketamine causes.
You STILL don't get it? Ketamine is NOT directly causing the hallucinations! It is causing chemical imbalances, and those chemical imbalances - which mimic those common to the beginning stages of brain death (with which you should be familiar), lead to the same kinds of hallucinations. In BOTH cases, the hallucinations result from chemical imbalances. The Ketamine doesn't directly cause them. It blocks Glutamate which induces the same failing of systems which maintain the normal chemical imbalances.

Go ahead ignore this like you do the other questions I ask that rationalwiki doesn't have answers to Beastt.
Once again, nit-wit; YOU are the one who frequents rationalwiki. Aside from the one time you first introduced me to the site, I've never been there!

Observation of the ketamine process occurring in a live brain without said ketamine.
No! Observation of the same chemical imbalances and resulting halucinations; whether caused by the adminstration of Ketamine, or by falling oxygen levels in the brain. Either way, you get the same imbalances, and because it's the same range of chemical imbalances, the result is the same kind of hallucinations.

Ketamine Administration --- \
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chemical imbalances \
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NDE hallucinations
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chemical imbalances /
Decreased O2 to brain - - - - /

Either way, the hallucinations are caused by the SAME CHEMICAL IMBALANCES.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 10:29:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 10:20:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 9:54:27 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 9:32:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
No. Completely subjective there is no established list of objective traits that describe NDE's. What I presented was the list of effects the experimenter was testing for. It is some common NDE. Then as for ALL of those traits listed, that effect was only in 10% of subjects.

And the demonstrative part comes in where we recognize that the brain operates on electro-chemical principles, and in both cases, we're dealing with a disruption of the normal chemical balance. And in both cases, we get the very same results. And these include - IN BOTH CASES;

Sleep deprivation causes hallucinations and out of body experiences as well. Messed up brain chemictry cuases people to perceive things incorrectly. That is not ground breaking science. The ketamine shows one process to cuase a particular type of hallucination. The demonstratble link would be to show how that is possible in a dieing brain that does not have an injection of ketamine.

Why is that hard for you to understand? Ketamine = A causes C by way of B. Where is the experiment showing that: Brain dieing = A causes C by way of B. "B" has not been shown to occur in the brain!
Speak English. Dying disrupts normal brain chemistry. That disruption leads to the hallucinations common to NDE reports. And it doesn't matter if the chemical balance is disrupted by drugs, or by trauma which leads to death, or near death. Either way, you get the same chemical imbalances, and the same hallucinations.


- The notice of a very unpleasant sound or noise.

Yeah drugs will do that. paranoia
So will religion - paranoia.


- A sense/awareness of being dead.

- A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A feeling of being removed from the world.

- An out-of-body experience. A perception of one"s body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts.

- A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.

- A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light.

- An intense feeling of unconditional love.

- Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or other spiritual beings. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.

- Being given a life review.

Show me where this happened with the use of Ketamine.
http://www.dailykos.com...#

It says: There are a variety of symptoms associated with an NDE, including but not limited to.. then lists life review.
http://www.near-death.com...

It says ONE ketamine user had a life review. For the sake of argument I'll concede this point.



- Being presented with knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.

- A decision by oneself or others to return to one"s body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.

- Approaching a border.

So there you have it, demonstration, explanation and replication. Of course, you'll still deny it because you deny absolutely everything which disagrees with your unevidenced pre-conceptions. You don't want to know the truth, because the truth isn't what you wish it to be.

No you have demonstrated chemicals foreign to the body CAN cause a trippy drug induced high. I'm asking to demonstrate the same result without a foreign chemical.
It's not about the fact that drugs can produce these effects. The point (that you keep trying to dodge), is HOW they produce these effects. And they do so by disrupting chemical balances in the brain, just as does a lack of oxygen, such as is common as a person dies or begins to die.

What is the demonstrable between Ketamine causing hallucinations in the brain

AND

The perception the brain has during an NDE.
They are the same, and using the same unbalancing of the brains normal chemical state. THAT is the demonstrable factor (AGAIN)!

OBVIOUSLY the experiment proves that gutemate blockage can cause similar visual hallucinations and perceptions.
By creating the same kinds of chemical imbalances common during the process of brain death, even when the only chemical agent, is a decline of oxygen levels, leading to the same kind of cascading chemical imbalances.

You get exactly the same physiological effect, and exactly the same hallucinations, regardless of whether it is induced by Ketamine, or by trauma.


What has NOT BEEN DEMONSTRATED is how the brain duplicates these perceptions WITHOUT the ketamine.
Duhhhhhh! I explained that in the very first post, in the second post, and in every subsequent post. Oxygen is a key chemical for most biological functions, including the maintenance of chemical balances in the brain. When oxygen levels fall, a "cascade of chemical imbalances" begins (how many friggin' times do you have to read that before you understand it?

Fine, do not give me 1 chemical that is like Ketamine. SHOW ME the evidence that the brain produces a gutemate blocking action like Ketamine causes.
You STILL don't get it? Ketamine is NOT directly causing the hallucinations! It is causing chemical imbalances, and those chemical imbalances - which mimic those common to the beginning stages of brain death (with which you should be familiar), lead to the same kinds of hallucinations. In BOTH cases, the hallucinations result from chemical imbalances. The Ketamine doesn't directly cause them. It blocks Glutamate which induces the same failing of systems which maintain the normal chemical imbalances.

Go ahead ignore this like you do the other questions I ask that rationalwiki doesn't have answers to Beastt.
Once again, nit-wit; YOU are the one who frequents rationalwiki. Aside from the one time you first introduced me to the site, I've never been there!

Observation of the ketamine process occurring in a live brain without said ketamine.
No! Observation of the same chemical imbalances and resulting halucinations; whether caused by the adminstration of Ketamine, or by falling oxygen levels in the brain. Either way, you get the same imbalances, and because it's the same range of chemical imbalances, the result is the same kind of hallucinations.


Ketamine Administration --- \
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chemical imbalances \
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NDE hallucinations
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chemical imbalances /
Decreased O2 to brain - - - - /


Either way, the hallucinations are caused by the SAME CHEMICAL IMBALANCES.

You have not shown that the same chemical imbalances that occur in a natural NDE, is the same chemical process that occurs with ketamine.

All you have shown is that a similar experience of NDE can be induced with a foreign to the body chemical.

When a magician makes an illusion on stage, it does not mean the same can happen in real life. I wish you would stop confusing the artificially produced with real observations.

Models are not natural observations, mathematical formulas are not reality, drug induced hallucinations of light and sound do not make the naturally occurring perception of light and sound equally as fake.

Good night Beatt.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 10:43:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason.

You appear to be trying to talk about ketamine hydrocloride, which is the cataleptoid (dissociative) anesthetic that I use to ..... neuter cats.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 10:44:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The bottom line is that chemical alteration of the brain does NOT explain n.d.e.'s due to the fact no chemical known to humans can reproduce religious information about the afterlife. Sure you can get all kinds of hallucinations and in the '60's we did. And no two hallucinations alike with LSD, peyote, mushrooms, and various and sundry hallucinogins. But with n.d.e.s we get the same or very similar set of hallucinations about an afterlife and these hallucinations match each other across time and cultures, maybe different religious figures but no ketamine, no spinning astronauts, can reproduce what our afterlife pointing religions do so atheists thinking n.d.e's have been "explained" only deceive themselves.

And again, no biological species known to man is not naturally afraid of death yet n.d.e. experiencers share a lack of fear of death after their experiences. Because they've had a glimpse of the Other Side that evidently is much more filled with love than here.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 11:01:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 10:43:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason.

You appear to be trying to talk about ketamine hydrocloride, which is the cataleptoid (dissociative) anesthetic that I use to ..... neuter cats.

In some countries it is also used as a child anesthetic and too much can give what anestheist call "emergence phenomena". Atheist seem to think taking a narcotic hallucigen explains a natural process in the brain.

Yet I am still looking for the study, or Beastt to provide me a link to where the gutemate receptors were blocked naturally in a non-induced NDE.

I do not think NDEs are spiritual in nature. And I could be wrong, but I do not think the brain produces a gutemate blocker.

Beastt changed the goal post by saying it was "a chemical imbalance" induces NDE. But this is a over generalization fallacy. Because sleep deprivation, caffeine, sugar, pornography, etc.. all cause chemical imbalances. But they do not all cause NDE sensations and experiences.

Plus every perception of the world around us, causes a chemical change in the brain. The only thing that can justify Beastt's argument is if we say ALL perceptions that do not originate in a sensory organ is FALSE. But then that would make our thoughts, emotions, memories FAKE like hallucinations.

In which case Beastt and Atheist buddies are admitting to be brain dead like NDE brains experiencing hallucinations.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 11:39:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

People can have many such delusion and hallucinations as has been demonstrtated in controlled conditions. See the study below in which people falsely claim to see angels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Near death experiences are not real. See the article
http://www.scientificamerican.com...
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 11:46:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

Some studies have linked near death experiences to card IAC arrest and not to supernatural things. See the study

http://io9.com...
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/14/2014 11:51:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 11:39:29 PM, debateuser wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

People can have many such delusion and hallucinations as has been demonstrtated in controlled conditions. See the study below in which people falsely claim to see angels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...


The researchers "Asking 30 volunteers to try to re-create a scene out of the Bible where a prophet is aided by an angel during sleep,"

OMGosh, ask people to dream about angels, and some of them do! Amazing proof!

Near death experiences are not real. See the article
http://www.scientificamerican.com...

There will is not and probably will never be sufficient evidence to justify a mind apart from brain interaction for the materialist. But then again materialism is false.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 12:11:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 10:29:22 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 10:20:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
It says ONE ketamine user had a life review. For the sake of argument I'll concede this point.
Yeah, I wouldn't want you to do it for the sake of honesty.



- Being presented with knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.

- A decision by oneself or others to return to one"s body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.

- Approaching a border.

So there you have it, demonstration, explanation and replication. Of course, you'll still deny it because you deny absolutely everything which disagrees with your unevidenced pre-conceptions. You don't want to know the truth, because the truth isn't what you wish it to be.

No you have demonstrated chemicals foreign to the body CAN cause a trippy drug induced high. I'm asking to demonstrate the same result without a foreign chemical.
It's not about the fact that drugs can produce these effects. The point (that you keep trying to dodge), is HOW they produce these effects. And they do so by disrupting chemical balances in the brain, just as does a lack of oxygen, such as is common as a person dies or begins to die.

What is the demonstrable between Ketamine causing hallucinations in the brain

AND

The perception the brain has during an NDE.
They are the same, and using the same unbalancing of the brains normal chemical state. THAT is the demonstrable factor (AGAIN)!

OBVIOUSLY the experiment proves that gutemate blockage can cause similar visual hallucinations and perceptions.
By creating the same kinds of chemical imbalances common during the process of brain death, even when the only chemical agent, is a decline of oxygen levels, leading to the same kind of cascading chemical imbalances.

You get exactly the same physiological effect, and exactly the same hallucinations, regardless of whether it is induced by Ketamine, or by trauma.


What has NOT BEEN DEMONSTRATED is how the brain duplicates these perceptions WITHOUT the ketamine.
Duhhhhhh! I explained that in the very first post, in the second post, and in every subsequent post. Oxygen is a key chemical for most biological functions, including the maintenance of chemical balances in the brain. When oxygen levels fall, a "cascade of chemical imbalances" begins (how many friggin' times do you have to read that before you understand it?

Fine, do not give me 1 chemical that is like Ketamine. SHOW ME the evidence that the brain produces a gutemate blocking action like Ketamine causes.
You STILL don't get it? Ketamine is NOT directly causing the hallucinations! It is causing chemical imbalances, and those chemical imbalances - which mimic those common to the beginning stages of brain death (with which you should be familiar), lead to the same kinds of hallucinations. In BOTH cases, the hallucinations result from chemical imbalances. The Ketamine doesn't directly cause them. It blocks Glutamate which induces the same failing of systems which maintain the normal chemical imbalances.

Go ahead ignore this like you do the other questions I ask that rationalwiki doesn't have answers to Beastt.
Once again, nit-wit; YOU are the one who frequents rationalwiki. Aside from the one time you first introduced me to the site, I've never been there!

Observation of the ketamine process occurring in a live brain without said ketamine.
No! Observation of the same chemical imbalances and resulting halucinations; whether caused by the adminstration of Ketamine, or by falling oxygen levels in the brain. Either way, you get the same imbalances, and because it's the same range of chemical imbalances, the result is the same kind of hallucinations.


Ketamine Administration --- \
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chemical imbalances \
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - NDE hallucinations
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chemical imbalances /
Decreased O2 to brain - - - - /


Either way, the hallucinations are caused by the SAME CHEMICAL IMBALANCES.

You have not shown that the same chemical imbalances that occur in a natural NDE, is the same chemical process that occurs with ketamine.
And you haven't shown that they're not! It's always the same game of goal-post shifting when dealing with nusto theists.

All you have shown is that a similar experience of NDE can be induced with a foreign to the body chemical.
Okay, now listen up. I have no idea how much you understand about neuroscience or biochemistry but I'll try to be clear.
And what does that chemical do? it's a Glutamate blocker. And what does Glutmate do? It's not just a neurotransmitter, it's the key neurotransmitter in brain function. So if you administer Ketamine, it blocks the glutamate, restricting signals from normal transmission.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
- "but particularly in the nervous system and especially prominent in the human brain where it is the body's most prominent neurotransmitter"

In Neuronal function, for a signal to cross a synapse an ion channel must be maintained which is an energy-intensive process. The two things required for energy in the brain are oxygen and glucose. So if oxygen levels begin to decline, neurotransmitter activity is reduced, which is EXACTLY what happens if the key neurotransmitter in the brain (glutamate), is blocked.
http://www.strokecenter.org...
- "The transient change in voltage induced by the action potential is determined by the concentration of ions on either side of the cell membrane. Maintaining these ionic gradients is an energy-consuming process that requires a constant supply of glucose and oxygen to the neuron."

The only question now is; to where will you shift the goal posts next?

When a magician makes an illusion on stage, it does not mean the same can happen in real life.
No, it means it DID happen in real life. What you saw, IS what happened. But the illusionist is careful to allow you to make wrongful assumptions about what happened. This is typical of the common miracle testimony. The person is giving their interpretation of what occurred, not what really occurred. An illusionist's job is to assure that your interpretation, will not be what actually occurred, but what he fooled you into believing occurred.

I wish you would stop confusing the artificially produced with real observations.
I wish you'd stop shifting goal posts and thinking you understand. You don't understand, nor do you want to.

Models are not natural observations, mathematical formulas are not reality, drug induced hallucinations of light and sound do not make the naturally occurring perception of light and sound equally as fake.
You're drooling all over yourself. Our brains are where sensory signals end up for processing and explanation. It doesn't matter whether the signal is actually generated by a sensory organ, or by chemicals induced directly into neural pathways. All that matters is that they arrive at the proper receptors in the brain. And when that fails to occur under normal conditions, the result is hallucinations.

AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF OXYGEN IS INSUFFICIENT TO KEEP THE ION CHANNELS OPEN, OR IF THE GLUTAMATE RECEPTORS ARE BLOCKED. THE RESULT IS THE LOSS OF NORMAL NEUROTRANSMITTER FLOW, AND THE RESULT IS THE SAME KIND OF HALLUCINATIONS BECAUSE THE CAUSE IS THE SAME - REDUCED NEUROTRANSMITTER FLOW.

Good night Beatt.
You lose, YOU'
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 12:14:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 11:51:17 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/14/2014 11:39:29 PM, debateuser wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

People can have many such delusion and hallucinations as has been demonstrtated in controlled conditions. See the study below in which people falsely claim to see angels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...


The researchers "Asking 30 volunteers to try to re-create a scene out of the Bible where a prophet is aided by an angel during sleep,"

OMGosh, ask people to dream about angels, and some of them do! Amazing proof!

It is not hypnosis and the scientists did not hypnotise them .It just shows that people can have such experiences and depends on what they want to believe. Religious people believe in God so they can have such self induced experiences.

A patient suffering from schizophrenia also has Religious hallucinations. If you were born few thousand years ago, people would say that the schizophrenia hallucinations are experienced by God or prophets of God but now a days , a hospital ward is waiting for you. See link

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Nursery is calling you Mhykiel. Better take your meds on time. Hahahhaaa

Near death experiences are not real. See the article
http://www.scientificamerican.com...

There will is not and probably will never be sufficient evidence to justify aa mind apart from brain interaction for the materialist. But then again materialism is false.

Some studies have linked near death experiences to cardiac arrest and changes in brain electrical signals (specifically the light experienced in such cases is due to changes in electrical signals of the brain) and not to supernatural things. See the study

http://io9.com...

Near death experiences are silly in the eyes of scientists . see the article

http://www.psmag.com...
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 12:38:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mhykiel Stop! Read this... It's what you have been asking for, and hoping I couldn't provide.

I want you to understand this so that you can see EXACTLY how wrong you have been. All you've done here is make it clear that you think "drugs" perform some kind of miracle. You think drug-induced hallucinations are somehow different from those induced by brain hypoxia (lack of oxygen to the brain). They're not. They're exactly the same thing.

- Normal Brain Function -
Signal --> transferred across synapse by glutamate --> signal received at postsynaptic location.

- Function with Ketamine -
Signal --> arrives at presynaptic location --> glutamate neurotransmitter blocked --> Signal does not arrive at postsynaptic location --> Hallucination results

- Function Under Oxygen Debt -
Signal --> arrives at presynaptic location --> insufficient oxygen to maintain ion channel --> Signal does not arrive at postsynaptic location --> Hallucination results

Do you see now? As I have been telling you all along; the hallucinations are caused by the very same mechanism, whether the problem is the result of administering ketamine, or whether it is caused by reduced oxygen levels. In either case, the neurotransmitter signals which maintain normal brain function, are blocked leading to the hallucinations.

ONCE AGAIN;
Think of the synapse as a tunnel (ion channel) between one neuron and the next. The signal must be transported through the tunnel, or hallucinations result.

You can think of Glutamate as a truck which transports the signal. Ketamine blocks the truck, preventing the signal from getting through the tunnel.

Think of an ion channel as that tunnel across which the signal must be transported. Oxygen and glucose are necessary to keep that tunnel from collapsing. If you have too little oxygen, the tunnel (ion channel) collapses, preventing the truck (glutamate) from carrying the signal through the tunnel.

So in either case, the cause of the hallucinations is the lack of normal signal transmission across synaptic gaps. Same cause = Same hallucinations. The fact that the signal is stopped by a "drug" in one instance, and a collapsed ion tunnel in the other instance, doesn't alter the nature of the hallucination, because the hallucination is caused simply by preventing the signal from being transported from one synapse to the next.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 1:40:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 10:43:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason.

You appear to be trying to talk about ketamine hydrocloride, which is the cataleptoid (dissociative) anesthetic that I use to ..... neuter cats.

I'm not "trying to talk about it", I am talking about it. I hope you're a certified veterinarian.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 2:20:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 1:40:01 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 10:43:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason.

You appear to be trying to talk about ketamine hydrocloride, which is the cataleptoid (dissociative) anesthetic that I use to ..... neuter cats.

I'm not "trying to talk about it", I am talking about it. I hope you're a certified veterinarian.

That's "licensed". There is no such thing as "certification" for general practice.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 2:24:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/15/2014 2:20:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/15/2014 1:40:01 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 10:43:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:57:03 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:33:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
I stumbled across a NDE that seems genuine. I also noticed during the interview he didn't endorse anything for personal gain like books he's written, just belief in God.
http://m.youtube.com...

Do you think NDE's are evidence of God?

Do you think he really experienced this even if it was real or a delusion? Or do you think he's lying about all of it?

He talks about pretty fascinating aspects of the "spiritual realm" too. Great speaker.

All of our experiences are perceptions manifested through our brains. Multiple studies have shown that injecting ketamin (a glutamate blocker), will result in the same kind of hallucinations common to experiences in NDEs, and for a very good reason.

You appear to be trying to talk about ketamine hydrocloride, which is the cataleptoid (dissociative) anesthetic that I use to ..... neuter cats.

I'm not "trying to talk about it", I am talking about it. I hope you're a certified veterinarian.

That's "licensed". There is no such thing as "certification" for general practice.

Fine.
I hope you're a "licensed veterinarian".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 7:04:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is so dumb and ignorant of history as to be a classic example of how atheists don't think straight:

"A patient suffering from schizophrenia also has Religious hallucinations. If you were born few thousand years ago, people would say that the schizophrenia hallucinations are experienced by God or prophets of God but now a days , a hospital ward is waiting for you. See link

http://en.m.wikipedia.org......

Nursery is calling you Mhykiel. Better take your meds on time. Hahahhaaa"

The whole of Western Civilization revolved around "religious hallucinations" and the world now is in the thrall once again of believers in religious hallucinations, leaders of nations calling for religious warfare and these leaders and their millions of followers are NOT inhabiting mental wards but are running our world. Name-calling a believer by an atheist about the WORLD religious situation is just nuts in itself as the atheist ignores reality of world religious warfare and world religions still running most nation's overall social relationships.

The other lack of knowledge shown by this atheist poster is the fact that there was a difference between the religious visionaries and the later priesthoods who wrote about them--their way.
skinker
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/15/2014 7:14:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've been getting religious visions and revelations periodically for the past 35 years. I should be retired now but I'm a life-long activist and am still organizing social change projects. I've been environmental consultant for the largest company in our California county, same for one of the most successful Native American tribes as well as economic development consultant, I've had radio shows, been a newspaper columnist, had tea with the Archbishop of the Holy Land Dioceses who honored me for my religious vision that produced Saif al Salam, the Sword of Peace that is kept by the highest ranking Christian priest in Nazareth, Israel. I suspect those ancient religious visionaries also weren't running around being locked up but were activists like me and organizing people because we weren't exhibiting those characteristics of schizoid people, the inability to deal with reality and people. You can tell schizoid thinking and you can see that people hallucinating all the time can't influence anyone but others off kilter to begin with. Religions didn't start with crazies but with organized people having religious visions.