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The Christian God is incompatible with hell

Benshapiro
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7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful

Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news? God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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7/18/2014 10:55:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful


Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news? God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.

I agree completely, but for some reason I was under the impression that you are a Christian.

Perhaps you are a Christian who does not believe in the popular conception of hell?
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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7/19/2014 12:56:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/18/2014 10:55:03 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful


Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news? God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.

I agree completely, but for some reason I was under the impression that you are a Christian.

Perhaps you are a Christian who does not believe in the popular conception of hell?

Don't you mean one of the christian conceptions of hell?
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 2:53:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful


Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news? God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.

Instead of leaning on your own understanding, try to find out what the Scriptures say about Hell.

Here are a number of passages which clearly state that there is a place of eternal torment reserved for the damned:

Revelation 21:8
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Psalm 9:17
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God."

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Matthew 13:50
"...and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--"

Jude 1:7
"...as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Proverbs 15:24
"The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below."

Proverbs 23:14
"You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell."

Matthew 13:42
"...and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Revelation 19:20
"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Proverbs 15:11
"Hell and Destruction are before the Lord; So how much more the hearts of the sons of men."

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;"

Revelation 20:13-14
"The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. "

Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
skinker
Posts: 345
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7/19/2014 9:41:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Soveigngrape, GO AWAY with that phony Pauline Anti-Christ crap! You don't understand our God, the Christian God is a God of Love and Forgiveness of sin. You think God can be as little and mean and vicious as you and a zillion others like you who tried to reduce our God to a thing worse than the worst human monster. Just take that BAD RELIGION elsewhere. It's day is over. Pauline Christianity is toast because all those Bible stories Paul dragged Christ-consciousness backwards into were bogus and yet Paul told you and all Christians to believe in BOGUS lies or face Hell. I'm tired of your type of phonies speaking for God and Christ when you are killer ape mentally and have no compassion for others. Only want to play Judge over others with much better morals than you display.
skinker
Posts: 345
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7/19/2014 9:49:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

It's time to reassess what the writer of this Jesus quote means as it may surprise many "Christians": "destroy both soul and body in hell as Gehenna." is the correct quote and it refers to the way ancient Hebrews were worshiping Yahweh with Moloch ritual burning to death of firstborn sons outside Jerusalem because the cries of burning children were too awful for Jerusalamites to want to hear. Later priests stopped this Moloch worship of Yahweh but stop and think about it: it is foundational to Abrahamic (Moloch) worship where Abraham set the Model for obedience to immorality, the choosing of serving a Moloch god demanding the death of your child as proof of loyalty to God above humanity, love, family, everything. Only a Moloch god demands this so serving Moloch is what will steal believers body and soul thinking they serve God.
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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7/20/2014 6:55:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 9:41:25 PM, skinker wrote:
Soveigngrape, GO AWAY with that phony Pauline Anti-Christ crap! You don't understand our God, the Christian God is a God of Love and Forgiveness of sin. You think God can be as little and mean and vicious as you and a zillion others like you who tried to reduce our God to a thing worse than the worst human monster. Just take that BAD RELIGION elsewhere. It's day is over. Pauline Christianity is toast because all those Bible stories Paul dragged Christ-consciousness backwards into were bogus and yet Paul told you and all Christians to believe in BOGUS lies or face Hell. I'm tired of your type of phonies speaking for God and Christ when you are killer ape mentally and have no compassion for others. Only want to play Judge over others with much better morals than you display.

Then let's all stare at the stars and invent a new concoction, Celestial Torah BS, and we can run around talking about spurious visions, geese in bad weather, "Christ Josephine" nonsense, fake miracles, and - to top it off - an old cheap, remodeled sword that some knucklehead has "baptized." And if anyone spots it for what it is, then the person is "angry". LMAO
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
skinker
Posts: 345
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7/20/2014 8:16:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The little jealous woman repeats her slander because she don't got nobody cares about another bible know-it-all wannabe like herself. Anna, go away. Get a life instead of hammering those of us who actually DO the Christian Walk while you just OCD on boards acting a role you have zip qualifications for. Don't even know Near Eastern religious history so you think the Bible tells it like it was. What a sorry excuse for rational belief you possess which is matched by your emotional problems of jealousy of others whose religious lives serve God with proof of service, hundreds of people being positively affected, you can't possibly match. So you you throw mud pies at them like a scorned jealous woman would, mad at the attention positive spiritual energy receives because of giving it in the first place. You try to take it away and you can't do anything but post bitches about real spiritual activism.

You have no idea about what you criticize as something never before seen in history has occurred: the natural spiritual transference of the Savior Messiah expectation from Old World to New World spiritual tradition. The 2nd Keeper of the Josephine Bundle has been established after the 1st Keeper passed on. I have worked in "Indian Country" for 19 years and they know me. You are a complete outsider and only have your anger to twist your mind to paint your picture of me. There's no witnesses but you while I have what I have, hundreds of people, Archbishops and priests, imams and spiritual leaders of tribes. Grow up, anna, and stop being a nasty parasite of spiritual people who give you the spiritual material in the first place.
DefenseoftheWay
Posts: 10
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7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is truly ignorant. You do understand that we, humans sinned against our Creator? He has every right to destroy us. God isn't some signing on a cloud with a harp God. He is a just, righteous God. And being righteous does not mean saying, "Well, I sent my Son to die for you, yet you ignored that and all of Creation, I will still let you in". You see, when we accept Christ, we die to sin, now that does not mean do not sin anymore, but that sin no longer has its power over us.

Also, do you think a perfect holy God could allow non-forgiven, unholy people into his presence? They would be destroyed! You see, Jesus took our place, and made us in a 'legal sense' not guilty.

Hell is a choice, anyone who says Heaven or Hell isn't free will is kidding themselves, for each are stark comparisons. Hell is not only physical torment, but it is also spiritual torment as you are eternally separated from God. Heaven will be glorious, not to mention a true spiritual peace, but to be in the presence of God! That enough is why you should want to choose Heaven.
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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7/20/2014 12:13:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
He is a just, righteous God.

I think you meant vain and vengeful.
DefenseoftheWay
Posts: 10
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7/20/2014 12:25:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 12:13:03 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
He is a just, righteous God.


I think you meant vain and vengeful.

That is obviously an attempt to try to change the topic. I clearly stated as to why God punishes and why he is righteous. I also need you to understand that he has given a way to be freed from punishment. So why would a vain and vengeful God do this?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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7/20/2014 12:41:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
This is truly ignorant. You do understand that we, humans sinned against our Creator? He has every right to destroy us. God isn't some signing on a cloud with a harp God. He is a just, righteous God. And being righteous does not mean saying, "Well, I sent my Son to die for you, yet you ignored that and all of Creation, I will still let you in". You see, when we accept Christ, we die to sin, now that does not mean do not sin anymore, but that sin no longer has its power over us.

Also, do you think a perfect holy God could allow non-forgiven, unholy people into his presence? They would be destroyed! You see, Jesus took our place, and made us in a 'legal sense' not guilty.

Hell is a choice, anyone who says Heaven or Hell isn't free will is kidding themselves, for each are stark comparisons. Hell is not only physical torment, but it is also spiritual torment as you are eternally separated from God. Heaven will be glorious, not to mention a true spiritual peace, but to be in the presence of God! That enough is why you should want to choose Heaven.

"We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God."
DefenseoftheWay
Posts: 10
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7/20/2014 12:46:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 12:41:35 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
This is truly ignorant. You do understand that we, humans sinned against our Creator? He has every right to destroy us. God isn't some signing on a cloud with a harp God. He is a just, righteous God. And being righteous does not mean saying, "Well, I sent my Son to die for you, yet you ignored that and all of Creation, I will still let you in". You see, when we accept Christ, we die to sin, now that does not mean do not sin anymore, but that sin no longer has its power over us.

Also, do you think a perfect holy God could allow non-forgiven, unholy people into his presence? They would be destroyed! You see, Jesus took our place, and made us in a 'legal sense' not guilty.

Hell is a choice, anyone who says Heaven or Hell isn't free will is kidding themselves, for each are stark comparisons. Hell is not only physical torment, but it is also spiritual torment as you are eternally separated from God. Heaven will be glorious, not to mention a true spiritual peace, but to be in the presence of God! That enough is why you should want to choose Heaven.

"We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God."

No, its incompatible with a world-view that God is this is fluffy, person who never disciplines/punishes. Like I have said, the Christian God is righteous, and since he was loving, he sent Jesus that we may have eternal life. That's what atheists don't get!

God doesn't want us to go to Hell so he made a way for us to go to him! All we must do is accept that. Not accepting IS a choice.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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7/20/2014 2:55:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 12:46:52 PM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
At 7/20/2014 12:41:35 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
This is truly ignorant. You do understand that we, humans sinned against our Creator? He has every right to destroy us. God isn't some signing on a cloud with a harp God. He is a just, righteous God. And being righteous does not mean saying, "Well, I sent my Son to die for you, yet you ignored that and all of Creation, I will still let you in". You see, when we accept Christ, we die to sin, now that does not mean do not sin anymore, but that sin no longer has its power over us.

Also, do you think a perfect holy God could allow non-forgiven, unholy people into his presence? They would be destroyed! You see, Jesus took our place, and made us in a 'legal sense' not guilty.

Hell is a choice, anyone who says Heaven or Hell isn't free will is kidding themselves, for each are stark comparisons. Hell is not only physical torment, but it is also spiritual torment as you are eternally separated from God. Heaven will be glorious, not to mention a true spiritual peace, but to be in the presence of God! That enough is why you should want to choose Heaven.

"We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God."


No, its incompatible with a world-view that God is this is fluffy, person who never disciplines/punishes. Like I have said, the Christian God is righteous, and since he was loving, he sent Jesus that we may have eternal life. That's what atheists don't get!

God doesn't want us to go to Hell so he made a way for us to go to him! All we must do is accept that. Not accepting IS a choice.

It's doesn't mean "God is fluffy if he doesn't eternally torment somebody that didn't know he existed"

Not accepting is a choice WITHOUT the knowledge of knowing what happens after we die. Without this knowledge you can't make the CHOICE to go to hell by not accepting. God is perfect love. Would perfect love torment someone forever who had no knowledge of his existence? Why is it MORE LOVING and MORE JUSTIFIED to torment someone FOREVER rather than just complete annihilation of that person? Why is eternal suffering and torment the equal punishment for a child molester and for someone that simply held a different religious belief?
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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7/20/2014 4:31:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 8:16:02 AM, skinker wrote:
The little jealous woman repeats her slander because she don't got nobody cares about another bible know-it-all wannabe like herself. Anna, go away.

'Tain't me who tells people to, "Go away" - then turns around and promotes my own lunatic cult of ONE!

Get a life instead of hammering those of us who actually DO the Christian Walk while you just OCD on boards acting a role you have zip qualifications for.

I'm not "hammering those of who actually DO the Christian Walk." I was hammering you, not them.

Don't even know Near Eastern religious history so you think the Bible tells it like it was. What a sorry excuse for rational belief you possess which is matched by your emotional problems of jealousy of others whose religious lives serve God with proof of service, hundreds of people being positively affected, you can't possibly match. So you you throw mud pies at them like a scorned jealous woman would, mad at the attention positive spiritual energy receives because of giving it in the first place. You try to take it away and you can't do anything but post bitches about real spiritual activism.

I post "bitches" about a fruitcake who runs around baptizing cheap, remodeled swords and thinks it's a "spiritual act", THEN has the nerve to proclaim that people miraculously "sang" to that hunk of junk. You couldn't sell it "icon" for ten bucks on eBay.

You have no idea about what you criticize as something never before seen in history has occurred: the natural spiritual transference of the Savior Messiah expectation from Old World to New World spiritual tradition. The 2nd Keeper of the Josephine Bundle has been established after the 1st Keeper passed on. I have worked in "Indian Country" for 19 years and they know me. You are a complete outsider and only have your anger to twist your mind to paint your picture of me. There's no witnesses but you while I have what I have, hundreds of people, Archbishops and priests, imams and spiritual leaders of tribes. Grow up, anna, and stop being a nasty parasite of spiritual people who give you the spiritual material in the first place.

More BS. Tell us again about the geese and the twister. That was a good one, but I've forgotten the details. Didn't an "Indian holy man" beat his drums and cause it?

(BTW, there is no such thing as "Josephine Bundle". That's just some more doo-doo that you came up with)
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/20/2014 4:44:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You're stepping over the line now, anna, because you are defaming Native American religious traditions as there is a whole Northern Cheyenne family now who have accepted the responsibility as 2nd Keeper of the Josephine Bundle known to tribal leaders including the Oglala Lakota Nation whom I have been working with this last year. Just go away like the rest of the Debate small minds with obsessive need to criticize real religion and real spiritual activism. Nobody cares about your negative opinions. Hundreds care about mine. And thousands will soon, and millions eventually..
celestialtorahteacher
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7/20/2014 4:53:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's get back on topic and ignore the petty woman's bigoted bleat. No God of Love and Mercy and Forgiveness of Sins can be a vengeful god taking out whatever hates such a small minded god would have on human beings this god supposed created? Are you nuts to think we'd believe such irrational lunacy appended to the God of All? A God who created the world and humankind can't fix a person's mixed up mind he's made in the first place and wants to hold his created human accountable for his own mistakes in manufacturing the human mind? Give me a break! All that "You'll fry in Hell if you don't follow the Rules" is so much warlord fascist ideology taking religious form and using God for ultimate Terrorist to get believers to believe by threatening their lives in this world and the next. Total garbage religion by coercion b.s. and only worthy of minds who have no comprehension of human rights demanded by God, the Elohim, Themselves.
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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7/20/2014 8:51:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 12:25:16 PM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
At 7/20/2014 12:13:03 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
He is a just, righteous God.


I think you meant vain and vengeful.


That is obviously an attempt to try to change the topic. I clearly stated as to why God punishes and why he is righteous. I also need you to understand that he has given a way to be freed from punishment. So why would a vain and vengeful God do this?

Since when is eternal torture a just punishment for 70 some odd years of not believing in Jesus Christ? Hell, if we even tried to match our justice system with your God's we would put hot pokers in the eyes of children who steal lollipops, lest that is if they believe in Jesus.

Of course at that level us mere humans have a name for that, coercion.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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7/20/2014 11:00:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 12:46:52 PM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
At 7/20/2014 12:41:35 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:48:35 AM, DefenseoftheWay wrote:
This is truly ignorant. You do understand that we, humans sinned against our Creator? He has every right to destroy us. God isn't some signing on a cloud with a harp God. He is a just, righteous God. And being righteous does not mean saying, "Well, I sent my Son to die for you, yet you ignored that and all of Creation, I will still let you in". You see, when we accept Christ, we die to sin, now that does not mean do not sin anymore, but that sin no longer has its power over us.

Also, do you think a perfect holy God could allow non-forgiven, unholy people into his presence? They would be destroyed! You see, Jesus took our place, and made us in a 'legal sense' not guilty.

Hell is a choice, anyone who says Heaven or Hell isn't free will is kidding themselves, for each are stark comparisons. Hell is not only physical torment, but it is also spiritual torment as you are eternally separated from God. Heaven will be glorious, not to mention a true spiritual peace, but to be in the presence of God! That enough is why you should want to choose Heaven.

"We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God."


No, its incompatible with a world-view that God is this is fluffy, person who never disciplines/punishes. Like I have said, the Christian God is righteous, and since he was loving, he sent Jesus that we may have eternal life. That's what atheists don't get!

God doesn't want us to go to Hell so he made a way for us to go to him! All we must do is accept that. Not accepting IS a choice.

Default destination.
Hell
To change destination.
Suck the right god's d*ck.
Daltonian
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7/20/2014 11:12:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful


Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news? God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.

I totally agree with this sentiment. An all-loving god would inevitably judge people not on whether or not they worship him, but on the content of their character.

By the distorted logic of Hell, a serial rapist who (genuinely) repents and finds Jesus would sooner find paradise than, say, Mahatma Gandhi or a Charity Founder and Rescuer of Orphans who happened to be gay or muslim or atheist, or whatever.

It really makes it seem like God doesn't have his priorities straight if he cares more about whether or not people accept him than their deeds or their persona.

To accredit Christians, a lot of Christians do share this "judge based on person, not belief in god" persona, however.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
slo1
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7/21/2014 7:23:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:12:08 PM, Daltonian wrote:
At 7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful


Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news? God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.

I totally agree with this sentiment. An all-loving god would inevitably judge people not on whether or not they worship him, but on the content of their character.

By the distorted logic of Hell, a serial rapist who (genuinely) repents and finds Jesus would sooner find paradise than, say, Mahatma Gandhi or a Charity Founder and Rescuer of Orphans who happened to be gay or muslim or atheist, or whatever.

It really makes it seem like God doesn't have his priorities straight if he cares more about whether or not people accept him than their deeds or their persona.

To accredit Christians, a lot of Christians do share this "judge based on person, not belief in god" persona, however.

Maybe, but that then ignores the first and most important requirement which is belief that Jesus Christ is God and the savoir.

Notice that is a common theme in all Abramic religions, you must believe in the prophet or future one to be saved. It is much like fairies, you wont get your wish if you don't first believe in fairies.

The entire concept of requirements to join the group fits so well in human group psychology and sociology that points to it as a human construct rather than a divine one.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/21/2014 7:46:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Notice that is a common theme in all Abramic religions, you must believe in the prophet or future one to be saved. It is much like fairies, you wont get your wish if you don't first believe in fairies.

The entire concept of requirements to join the group fits so well in human group psychology and sociology that points to it as a human construct rather than a divine one."

Slo1, that is so lame thinking. Don't you understand there is No advancement in human anything without someone taking the 1st steps? Did "fairies" led the American Revolution and write the Constitution? Did "fairies" discover gravitation and penicillin? Prophets are just the people who are in first place in spiritual information acquisition by human beings yet because of your prejudicial thinking you can't see that and have to negate natural process of information flow to arrive at an invalid conclusion. Here's a hint atheists never take but should, it would save us all a lot of time dealing with ignorant people which atheists are when they make claims about knowledge of a subject matter they have no personal experiential knowledge of, spiritual consciousness, if you would just admit lack of knowledge and go learn it before making all these false judgments about it.

Here's another hint: Ask yourself, did you grow up in an upper middle class household? If you did statistically chances are it was secular and thus you were raised without brain training in spiritual consciousness. Atheism statistically is the religion of Yuppies. What is your story? Does the above apply to you or are you one of the Evangelical Christian raised people rebelling against Evangelical Christianity's straight-jacket ideology? Evangelical Christianity can only teach group mass mind hypnosis that postures as "spirituality" but is more akin to rock concert frenzy than real spiritual consciousness of God.

I teach Celestial Torah Christianity, the world's oldest religious consciousness and it is not dependent on Bible belief therefore as Christianity turns out to be the way God is evolving a Program to pacify human beings to become humane beings.
GodChoosesLife
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7/22/2014 3:36:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/18/2014 10:49:02 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Hell: a place of eternal, unimaginable torment.
^
God's wrath.

God: all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful
True.


Bob and Joe went to school together growing up. Bob was a Christian and Joe was a Hindu. They were best friends and did everything together. One day they got in a fatal car accident that killed both of them. Bob arrives in heaven, in eternal bliss, and shining in all of God's glory. Joe wakes up on fire. He'd be screaming if his insides weren't engulfed in flame. Blood boiling, eyes burning out, regenerating and burning again and again and again. Bob is in total ecstasy but remembers his friend, and wonders where he went. He remembers that Joe is a Hindu and that he didn't believe in his God so he went to hell. God lets him have a glimpse of the torture his friend is enduring. Bob immediately requests that he can cease to exist so that his friend can cease to exist too so he can escape the torture he's enduring. But Bob has eternal life in heaven now. His friend will burn forever and ever. 10 years of constant pain and unimaginable torture, then another 100, then a million, forever and ever with no chance of escaping. What good would come of this torture? Would he be any closer of reconciling his sins with God after 1,000 years of torture? 10,000 years? Could you imagine even 1 minute of placing your hand on a hot stove let alone for eternity?

Would Hitler, Mao, Stalin, or Mussilini even subject somebody to unending torture?
If they have not repented, yes, sadly.

Would people accept the "good news" only because they're afraid of the bad news?
If God having people turn to him out of fear because they want to escape eternal torment?
Then it's not a genuine acceptance, but a false one. Fear of hell isn't what will save people, Jesus will.

If Jesus underwent such suffering on the cross, is it even an ounce compared to the suffering of billions in such unending torment?
He took every ounce of sin that we all do and placed it upon Himself as well as receiving God's wrath upon Himself. It wasn't Him being on the Cross that killed Him. It was our sin and God's wrath that was placed upon Him that we rightfully should've been the ones dying on that Cross. So to compare His death to hell is not a comparison at all.

Wouldn't God, all loving, powerful, and omniscient spare ignorant people who've sinned against him, or even those who knowingly did so, of eternal torment?
He does. That's why Jesus died on the Cross. If Jesus hadn't died on the Cross, then none of us would have any chance to go to heaven, instead go to hell.

We weren't given a choice to be born nor do we have the knowledge to know with certainty what happens after we die. "You chose to go to hell" is not true at all. Any rational human being who was able to foresee their fate would choose to have never been born. Yet God is perfect love, has the power to stop gratuitous suffering in hell, knows your beginning and end, and is the maker of hell itself? This concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is totally incompatible with a Christian God.

We choose to make the mistakes we make, right? Then it's logical to believe that when "you commit a crime you do the time"... Because you dot agree to what God does not mean He will change. He is Immutable, Just, Righteous and Holy.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad