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"Problem of Evil" Argument Reflects Ignorance

sovereigngracereigns
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7/19/2014 2:40:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
First of all, a definition, from Wikipedia:

"In the philosophy of religion, the problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is, in either absolute or relative terms, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (see theism).
An argument from evil attempts to show that the co-existence of evil and such a deity is unlikely or impossible if placed in absolute terms."


Now, that argument reflects the ignorance of its proponents, who have not properly understood the Scriptures.

PROPOSITION:

Everything that happens is according to God's will, but that does not change the fact that men are still responsible for the evil they do.
Therefore, the existence of evil does not, in any way, contradict God's inherent goodness.


God uses the evil intentions and deeds of wicked men to accomplish his purpose of grace.

And the greatest example of how God uses evil for good, is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ willingly gave his life to redeem his people. It was by the determinate purpose of God.

So, although their intentions were evil, they unwittingly fulfilled God's purpose in redeeming his people.


In Acts 2:22-33, the Apostle Peter said:

"Men of Israel, hear these words:
Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
--Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;"


Now, that means that, although Christ was delivered by the determinate purpose and foreknowledge of God, it does not change the fact that they did the crime.

The fact is, God never does evil. He never promotes evil.
God just uses the evil of men for his own good purpose.

Furthermore, Peter says, in verse 36,
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

That means that the Lord Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and you must bow to him or be damned.

Now, in verse 37, we find that the people were "cut to the heart", they acknowledged their guilt in crucifying him.

They didn't accuse Peter of contradicting himself, but simply acknowledged their guilt. And they said: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Verse 37:
"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

And here's what Peter says, in Verse 38:
"Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."


Now, this is the ultimate example of how God uses evil for good, and how God's sovereignty does not excuse men from their evil deeds.

In fact, Verse 38 shows how men are forgiven for their sins -- through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The fact is, all of us are guilty of sin, but there is forgiveness in the Lord Jesus Christ!


God does not love the whole world.
He loves his Son, Jesus Christ.
And he loves those who love his Son, Jesus Christ!

God purposes all that occurs in time and space for his own glory and the good of his people.
And the rest will be damned for eternity.

So, if you would be saved from your sins, and be made right with God, you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

You must come to Christ, by faith, and believe that he satisfied the justice of God for your sins.
And you must trust him, and rest in his mercy, and stop trying to justify yourself before God!

There is no hope, and no mercy, no forgiveness of sins, apart from God-given faith in Jesus Christ.

And so, I leave you once again with the divinely-inspired words of Peter, recorded in Acts 2:38.
Listen:
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Toviyah
Posts: 88
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7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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7/19/2014 5:36:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.

And God has no power over that?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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7/19/2014 5:47:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I find Stephen Law's evil god hypothesis a very effective counter to virtually any theodicy against the PoE.

When you realize the flipped thodicies actually sound more plausible than the good god theodicies, then it really does make the argument compelling.
Toviyah
Posts: 88
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7/19/2014 5:48:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:36:54 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.

And God has no power over that?
Not if it's the absence of anything.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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7/19/2014 5:51:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:48:06 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:36:54 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.

And God has no power over that?
Not if it's the absence of anything.

Not following your last comment, other then your assertion that God may not in fact have any power over evil being necessary for world. Interesting.
Toviyah
Posts: 88
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7/19/2014 5:54:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:51:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:48:06 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:36:54 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.

And God has no power over that?
Not if it's the absence of anything.

Not following your last comment, other then your assertion that God may not in fact have any power over evil being necessary for world. Interesting.
If evil is a privation of good then God didn't create it nor can he alter it... There is nothing to alter. Nor did God create evil as you can't create the absence of anything. You get me?
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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7/19/2014 5:59:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 2:40:59 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
First of all, a definition, from Wikipedia:

"In the philosophy of religion, the problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is, in either absolute or relative terms, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (see theism).
An argument from evil attempts to show that the co-existence of evil and such a deity is unlikely or impossible if placed in absolute terms."



Now, that argument reflects the ignorance of its proponents, who have not properly understood the Scriptures.

No offense, but no one except for Christians care about your holy scriptures. You need to refute the argument on its own terms, nothing your holy book says invalidates that argument on its own.


PROPOSITION:

Everything that happens is according to God's will, but that does not change the fact that men are still responsible for the evil they do.
Therefore, the existence of evil does not, in any way, contradict God's inherent goodness.

Right, the free will defense. This isn't anything new. Continuing.



God uses the evil intentions and deeds of wicked men to accomplish his purpose of grace.

And the greatest example of how God uses evil for good, is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ willingly gave his life to redeem his people. It was by the determinate purpose of God.

So, although their intentions were evil, they unwittingly fulfilled God's purpose in redeeming his people.


And an omnipotent deity can't figure out a way to accomplish what the crucifixion accomplished, but without the evil?

This doesn't even matter though, this is a rabbit trail that has nothing to do with the problem of evil and does not address it in any way. One instance of evil ultimately being good does not mean that all instances of evil in the world are for the greater good. That's what you need to show.


In Acts 2:22-33, the Apostle Peter said:

"Men of Israel, hear these words:
Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
--Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;"



Now, that means that, although Christ was delivered by the determinate purpose and foreknowledge of God, it does not change the fact that they did the crime.

The fact is, God never does evil. He never promotes evil.
God just uses the evil of men for his own good purpose.


So there's a good purpose to the raping and strangulation of a 7 year old girl by her father? There's a good purpose to a young girl being married in Africa to a 25 year old man, who then bleeds to death because her genitals were brutalized when they attempted sexual intercourse?

Pray tell how God is using these "evils of men" for his own good purpose.

Furthermore, Peter says, in verse 36,
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

That means that the Lord Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and you must bow to him or be damned.


Irrelevant, we are discussing whether a deity even exists, you can't presuppose its existence.



Now, in verse 37, we find that the people were "cut to the heart", they acknowledged their guilt in crucifying him.

They didn't accuse Peter of contradicting himself, but simply acknowledged their guilt. And they said: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Verse 37:
"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

And here's what Peter says, in Verse 38:
"Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."




Now, this is the ultimate example of how God uses evil for good, and how God's sovereignty does not excuse men from their evil deeds.

In fact, Verse 38 shows how men are forgiven for their sins -- through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


More of the same, see above.


The fact is, all of us are guilty of sin, but there is forgiveness in the Lord Jesus Christ!



Quite the soapbox you're on.

God does not love the whole world.
He loves his Son, Jesus Christ.
And he loves those who love his Son, Jesus Christ!

God purposes all that occurs in time and space for his own glory and the good of his people.

Oh, so rape, strangulation, genital mutilation, and genocide is for his own glory and the GOOD of man. Astounding!

And the rest will be damned for eternity.

So, if you would be saved from your sins, and be made right with God, you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


We haven't established that god exists, that's the point of the argument, to show that he doesn't.

You must come to Christ, by faith, and believe that he satisfied the justice of God for your sins.
And you must trust him, and rest in his mercy, and stop trying to justify yourself before God!

There is no hope, and no mercy, no forgiveness of sins, apart from God-given faith in Jesus Christ.


Blah blah blah

And so, I leave you once again with the divinely-inspired words of Peter, recorded in Acts 2:38.
Listen:
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 6:06:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:36:54 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.

And God has no power over that?

God has power over everything.
And God uses evil to accomplish good.

Now, this is important to understand:
Man loves that which is evil and hates that which is good.
In other words, man hates God.

And Man tries, in vain, to overthrow God, and to blame God for his own sin,
and God just laughs, and holds man in derision.

Look at Psalm 2:4-5,
"He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:"


That's how God sees Man, as evil and rebellious.
And he has the right to judge Man in wrath.

All the things Man calls "evil" are really just the fruits of his own sin and iniquity.
And God would be just to condemn every one of us.

And though God shows his wrath, he is willing to show mercy. But again--It must be on his terms!

God commands all men everywhere to repent (turn from sin, and from wrong thoughts about themselves and about God) and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (his person and work as the promised Deliverer, who redeemed his people with his own precious blood).

God is longsuffering and patient, and merciful for Christ's sake.
But outside of Christ, there is no mercy, and no grace.

You must have Christ, or you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.
And you won't come to Christ unless God is pleased to save you.

Face it, your will is in bondage to sin and iniquity.
There is no hope for you outside of Christ.

For: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 6:48:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:59:49 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/19/2014 2:40:59 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
First of all, a definition, from Wikipedia:

"In the philosophy of religion, the problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is, in either absolute or relative terms, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (see theism).
An argument from evil attempts to show that the co-existence of evil and such a deity is unlikely or impossible if placed in absolute terms."



Now, that argument reflects the ignorance of its proponents, who have not properly understood the Scriptures.

No offense, but no one except for Christians care about your holy scriptures. You need to refute the argument on its own terms, nothing your holy book says invalidates that argument on its own.


PROPOSITION:

Everything that happens is according to God's will, but that does not change the fact that men are still responsible for the evil they do.
Therefore, the existence of evil does not, in any way, contradict God's inherent goodness.

Right, the free will defense. This isn't anything new. Continuing.



God uses the evil intentions and deeds of wicked men to accomplish his purpose of grace.

And the greatest example of how God uses evil for good, is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ willingly gave his life to redeem his people. It was by the determinate purpose of God.

So, although their intentions were evil, they unwittingly fulfilled God's purpose in redeeming his people.


And an omnipotent deity can't figure out a way to accomplish what the crucifixion accomplished, but without the evil?

This doesn't even matter though, this is a rabbit trail that has nothing to do with the problem of evil and does not address it in any way. One instance of evil ultimately being good does not mean that all instances of evil in the world are for the greater good. That's what you need to show.


In Acts 2:22-33, the Apostle Peter said:

"Men of Israel, hear these words:
Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
--Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;"



Now, that means that, although Christ was delivered by the determinate purpose and foreknowledge of God, it does not change the fact that they did the crime.

The fact is, God never does evil. He never promotes evil.
God just uses the evil of men for his own good purpose.


So there's a good purpose to the raping and strangulation of a 7 year old girl by her father? There's a good purpose to a young girl being married in Africa to a 25 year old man, who then bleeds to death because her genitals were brutalized when they attempted sexual intercourse?

Pray tell how God is using these "evils of men" for his own good purpose.

Furthermore, Peter says, in verse 36,
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

That means that the Lord Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and you must bow to him or be damned.


Irrelevant, we are discussing whether a deity even exists, you can't presuppose its existence.



Now, in verse 37, we find that the people were "cut to the heart", they acknowledged their guilt in crucifying him.

They didn't accuse Peter of contradicting himself, but simply acknowledged their guilt. And they said: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Verse 37:
"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

And here's what Peter says, in Verse 38:
"Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."




Now, this is the ultimate example of how God uses evil for good, and how God's sovereignty does not excuse men from their evil deeds.

In fact, Verse 38 shows how men are forgiven for their sins -- through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


More of the same, see above.


The fact is, all of us are guilty of sin, but there is forgiveness in the Lord Jesus Christ!



Quite the soapbox you're on.

God does not love the whole world.
He loves his Son, Jesus Christ.
And he loves those who love his Son, Jesus Christ!

God purposes all that occurs in time and space for his own glory and the good of his people.

Oh, so rape, strangulation, genital mutilation, and genocide is for his own glory and the GOOD of man. Astounding!

And the rest will be damned for eternity.

So, if you would be saved from your sins, and be made right with God, you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


We haven't established that god exists, that's the point of the argument, to show that he doesn't.

You must come to Christ, by faith, and believe that he satisfied the justice of God for your sins.
And you must trust him, and rest in his mercy, and stop trying to justify yourself before God!

There is no hope, and no mercy, no forgiveness of sins, apart from God-given faith in Jesus Christ.


Blah blah blah

And so, I leave you once again with the divinely-inspired words of Peter, recorded in Acts 2:38.
Listen:
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

First of all, I'm not using the "free will" defense. I've repeatedly said, in this thread and others, than man's will is not free.
Secondly, what you seem to blindly assume is that what Man thinks is "good", is actually what is good.
But the fact is, everything Man thinks and does is evil.
It's Man who rapes and strangles a 7-year old girl--NOT GOD.

Furthermore, what was done to the Savior when he walked on this earth was far more evil than the rape and strangulation of a child.
It was the MURDER of GOD'S SON! The sinless, spotless Son of the Living God was TORTURED and KILLED.
There is no evil you can name that is more wicked and depraved than that, considering WHO the VICTIM was!

And if God did not spare his own Son from experiencing such evil, why on earth should spare you or me?
SIN is a HORRIBLE thing. Sin causes the rape and strangulation of children. So you ought to hate SIN instead of God.

But the fact is, you are lost and blind and your only hope of salvation is the Lord Jesus Christ. So, lay down your weapons of warfare and bow to the King, or you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 7:03:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:54:28 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:51:46 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:48:06 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:36:54 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:35:00 PM, Toviyah wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
Not if evil is a privation.

And God has no power over that?
Not if it's the absence of anything.

Not following your last comment, other then your assertion that God may not in fact have any power over evil being necessary for world. Interesting.
If evil is a privation of good then God didn't create it nor can he alter it... There is nothing to alter. Nor did God create evil as you can't create the absence of anything. You get me?

Yes, the presence of evil is a privation. It's the removal of goodness. And so, evil is not a thing in itself.

It's just like darkness and light. Darkness is not a thing in itself. It's simply the absence, or lack of, light.

And so, this world is a paradise compared to what Hell is -- the complete absence of God's mercy.

And Man should be thankful that God restrains the evil in this world by the light of his goodness and mercy.

But instead, Man blames God for the evil, and justifies himself, and makes excuses for not seeking God's mercy.

But all those who believe on Christ, and come to the Father through him, find mercy and forgiveness of sins.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/19/2014 7:06:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.

It is reasonable to believe that God may not have been able to create a world in which there is more good/goodness than this one while still giving human beings free will.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 7:29:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 7:06:58 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.

It is reasonable to believe that God may not have been able to create a world in which there is more good/goodness than this one while still giving human beings free will.

That's only true in part, but there's something else you must consider.

It is true that Man SINS by his own choice, by his own will.
But his will is NOT FREE, it is bound to his NATURE.
And his nature, since the Fall, has been nothing but SIN. So it's impossible for him to do anything but sin.

That's important to understand, because, if that's not the case, then a man can boast that he comes to God by his "free will."

And if a man can boast that he comes to God by his "free will", then God would have to share the glory with that man.

The fact is, God alone can save.
Man can NOT, by his own will, come to God.
He can't do ANYTHING that would give him room to boast.

The Word of God says to all those who believe on Jesus Christ:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
And:
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

It's unfortunate that "free will" is so grossly misunderstood.
And the whole "Problem of Evil" argument reflects that ignorance.
stubs
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7/19/2014 7:41:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 7:29:19 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/19/2014 7:06:58 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.

It is reasonable to believe that God may not have been able to create a world in which there is more good/goodness than this one while still giving human beings free will.

That's only true in part, but there's something else you must consider.

It is true that Man SINS by his own choice, by his own will.
But his will is NOT FREE, it is bound to his NATURE.
And his nature, since the Fall, has been nothing but SIN. So it's impossible for him to do anything but sin.

That's important to understand, because, if that's not the case, then a man can boast that he comes to God by his "free will."

And if a man can boast that he comes to God by his "free will", then God would have to share the glory with that man.

The fact is, God alone can save.
Man can NOT, by his own will, come to God.
He can't do ANYTHING that would give him room to boast.

The Word of God says to all those who believe on Jesus Christ:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
And:
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

It's unfortunate that "free will" is so grossly misunderstood.
And the whole "Problem of Evil" argument reflects that ignorance.

Wow sounds very reformed/Calvinist. That true?

If man can not do anything but sin because of his nature, how is man to blame for his sins?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/19/2014 7:44:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 5:47:54 PM, Envisage wrote:
I find Stephen Law's evil god hypothesis a very effective counter to virtually any theodicy against the PoE.

When you realize the flipped thodicies actually sound more plausible than the good god theodicies, then it really does make the argument compelling.

Not if "Good" is the accomplishment of God's will.

And "Evil" is the lacking of "Good"
sovereigngracereigns
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7/19/2014 7:53:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 7:44:08 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:47:54 PM, Envisage wrote:
I find Stephen Law's evil god hypothesis a very effective counter to virtually any theodicy against the PoE.

When you realize the flipped thodicies actually sound more plausible than the good god theodicies, then it really does make the argument compelling.

Not if "Good" is the accomplishment of God's will.

And "Evil" is the lacking of "Good"

Exactly.

Well said.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/19/2014 8:01:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 7:53:02 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/19/2014 7:44:08 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:47:54 PM, Envisage wrote:
I find Stephen Law's evil god hypothesis a very effective counter to virtually any theodicy against the PoE.

When you realize the flipped thodicies actually sound more plausible than the good god theodicies, then it really does make the argument compelling.

Not if "Good" is the accomplishment of God's will.

And "Evil" is the lacking of "Good"

Exactly.

Well said.

I've explained this as the dark and light example as well. You have the right idea and it is biblically backed.

But Atheist do not want to face such definitions. They are content with the strawman argument of saying "Good" is what people want good to be. And "Evil" is any suffering (consequent or not) of humans.

I used the example of a Gardener burning a fruit tree that doesn't bare fruit, or pulling weeds that ruin the flowerbed. This example of God's morality and relationship to the universe is too hard.

So before getting into PoE debate best define "Good" and "Evil" won't do you any good. The straw man conception of those states is liked to much by the Atheist community.

Again still though they flip the script on what "Good" and "Evil" and "Bad" is when they argue against subjective morality.

Good luck to you.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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7/19/2014 8:04:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 6:48:10 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
First of all, I'm not using the "free will" defense. I've repeatedly said, in this thread and others, than man's will is not free.

You didn't say that in this thread, and frankly I don't keep track of people and their exact views, I just read what they write.

If humans don't have free will, then they are mechanistic, and all of their behavior and actions follow from the moment they were created and the feelings with which they were endowed. This means that God is responsible for any evil men do, not the men.

To help illustrate that, if a man makes a gun and uses it to kill someone, the gun is not to blame. The man is, obviously. It's the same exact thing here.

Secondly, what you seem to blindly assume is that what Man thinks is "good", is actually what is good.
But the fact is, everything Man thinks and does is evil.
It's Man who rapes and strangles a 7-year old girl--NOT GOD.


First off, see above.

Second, you say everything man thinks and does is evil. So, Gandhi isn't ultimately any better a person than Hitler, since everything Gandhi thought and did was also bad, apparently. Do you think rape is evil? Well man is always wrong, you claim, so I guess rape is actually good!

It's man who rapes and strangles, sure. See above. Further however, you stated in the OP that the evil of men is purposed by God for the good of man and his own glory. So I'll ask again: Defend your claim. How is rape, strangulation, and genital mutilation for the good of man and for God's glory?

Furthermore, what was done to the Savior when he walked on this earth was far more evil than the rape and strangulation of a child.

You f***ing disgust me. Look a crying child in the eyes who's genitals are bleeding out because she was penetrated by a pedophile, and tell them that a guy who was simply crucified got it worse. You're absolute scum.

It was the MURDER of GOD'S SON! The sinless, spotless Son of the Living God was TORTURED and KILLED.
There is no evil you can name that is more wicked and depraved than that, considering WHO the VICTIM was!

And if God did not spare his own Son from experiencing such evil, why on earth should spare you or me?
SIN is a HORRIBLE thing. Sin causes the rape and strangulation of children. So you ought to hate SIN instead of God.


You said it was for God's glory, see my bolded above.

But the fact is, you are lost and blind and your only hope of salvation is the Lord Je

Honestly, stop preaching, that's not the purpose of this website or this forum.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 8:10:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 7:41:22 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/19/2014 7:29:19 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/19/2014 7:06:58 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:17:56 PM, Double_R wrote:
You still have one problem; God is supposed to be all good yet evil comes from him. You can try to rationalize it away all you want, until that fact changes your rationalizations will always fail.

Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.

It is reasonable to believe that God may not have been able to create a world in which there is more good/goodness than this one while still giving human beings free will.

That's only true in part, but there's something else you must consider.

It is true that Man SINS by his own choice, by his own will.
But his will is NOT FREE, it is bound to his NATURE.
And his nature, since the Fall, has been nothing but SIN. So it's impossible for him to do anything but sin.

That's important to understand, because, if that's not the case, then a man can boast that he comes to God by his "free will."

And if a man can boast that he comes to God by his "free will", then God would have to share the glory with that man.

The fact is, God alone can save.
Man can NOT, by his own will, come to God.
He can't do ANYTHING that would give him room to boast.

The Word of God says to all those who believe on Jesus Christ:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
And:
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Romans 9:16)

It's unfortunate that "free will" is so grossly misunderstood.
And the whole "Problem of Evil" argument reflects that ignorance.

Wow sounds very reformed/Calvinist. That true?

If man can not do anything but sin because of his nature, how is man to blame for his sins?

No, I'm not Reformed or Calvinist. I just believe what the Scriptures say.

Now,
Please....... just think about what you asked for a second.

Your question was:
"If man can not do anything but sin because of his nature, how is man to blame for his sins?"

Alright.

Let me break this down for you one piece at a time.

1. "If man can not do anything but sin..."

The man constantly sins, and never stops sinning.

2. "because of his nature,"

It's HIS nature to sin. And the sin COMES from HIM, and not from OUTSIDE of himself.

And your question is,
If these two things are so, then: "how is man to blame for his sins?

Well....

If:
1. The man constantly sins, and does nothing but sin,
and
2. The sin COMES from HIM, and not from outside of himself,

Then I ask YOU:
1. HOW can that man NOT be blamed for his sins?????
and
2. How can ANYONE ELSE be blamed for his sins????

Let's see if you can answer those two questions.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 8:12:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 8:01:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/19/2014 7:53:02 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/19/2014 7:44:08 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/19/2014 5:47:54 PM, Envisage wrote:
I find Stephen Law's evil god hypothesis a very effective counter to virtually any theodicy against the PoE.

When you realize the flipped thodicies actually sound more plausible than the good god theodicies, then it really does make the argument compelling.

Not if "Good" is the accomplishment of God's will.

And "Evil" is the lacking of "Good"

Exactly.

Well said.

I've explained this as the dark and light example as well. You have the right idea and it is biblically backed.

But Atheist do not want to face such definitions. They are content with the strawman argument of saying "Good" is what people want good to be. And "Evil" is any suffering (consequent or not) of humans.

I used the example of a Gardener burning a fruit tree that doesn't bare fruit, or pulling weeds that ruin the flowerbed. This example of God's morality and relationship to the universe is too hard.

So before getting into PoE debate best define "Good" and "Evil" won't do you any good. The straw man conception of those states is liked to much by the Atheist community.

Again still though they flip the script on what "Good" and "Evil" and "Bad" is when they argue against subjective morality.

Good luck to you.

Again, well said.

It's a result of deliberate, willful ignorance.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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7/19/2014 8:17:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 8:10:11 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
No, I'm not Reformed or Calvinist. I just believe what the Scriptures say.

Definitely a Calvinist hahah

Now,
Please....... just think about what you asked for a second.

Your question was:
"If man can not do anything but sin because of his nature, how is man to blame for his sins?"

Alright.

Let me break this down for you one piece at a time.


1. "If man can not do anything but sin..."

The man constantly sins, and never stops sinning.

2. "because of his nature,"

It's HIS nature to sin. And the sin COMES from HIM, and not from OUTSIDE of himself.

Where did I get my nature? Did I choose to have it?

And your question is,
If these two things are so, then: "how is man to blame for his sins?

Well....

If:
1. The man constantly sins, and does nothing but sin,
and
2. The sin COMES from HIM, and not from outside of himself,

Then I ask YOU:
1. HOW can that man NOT be blamed for his sins?????
and
2. How can ANYONE ELSE be blamed for his sins????

Let's see if you can answer those two questions.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 8:28:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 8:04:20 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/19/2014 6:48:10 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
First of all, I'm not using the "free will" defense. I've repeatedly said, in this thread and others, than man's will is not free.

You didn't say that in this thread, and frankly I don't keep track of people and their exact views, I just read what they write.

If humans don't have free will, then they are mechanistic, and all of their behavior and actions follow from the moment they were created and the feelings with which they were endowed. This means that God is responsible for any evil men do, not the men.

To help illustrate that, if a man makes a gun and uses it to kill someone, the gun is not to blame. The man is, obviously. It's the same exact thing here.

Secondly, what you seem to blindly assume is that what Man thinks is "good", is actually what is good.
But the fact is, everything Man thinks and does is evil.
It's Man who rapes and strangles a 7-year old girl--NOT GOD.


First off, see above.

Second, you say everything man thinks and does is evil. So, Gandhi isn't ultimately any better a person than Hitler, since everything Gandhi thought and did was also bad, apparently. Do you think rape is evil? Well man is always wrong, you claim, so I guess rape is actually good!

It's man who rapes and strangles, sure. See above. Further however, you stated in the OP that the evil of men is purposed by God for the good of man and his own glory. So I'll ask again: Defend your claim. How is rape, strangulation, and genital mutilation for the good of man and for God's glory?

Furthermore, what was done to the Savior when he walked on this earth was far more evil than the rape and strangulation of a child.

You f***ing disgust me. Look a crying child in the eyes who's genitals are bleeding out because she was penetrated by a pedophile, and tell them that a guy who was simply crucified got it worse. You're absolute scum.

It was the MURDER of GOD'S SON! The sinless, spotless Son of the Living God was TORTURED and KILLED.
There is no evil you can name that is more wicked and depraved than that, considering WHO the VICTIM was!

And if God did not spare his own Son from experiencing such evil, why on earth should spare you or me?
SIN is a HORRIBLE thing. Sin causes the rape and strangulation of children. So you ought to hate SIN instead of God.


You said it was for God's glory, see my bolded above.

But the fact is, you are lost and blind and your only hope of salvation is the Lord Je

Honestly, stop preaching, that's not the purpose of this website or this forum.

You're seeing contradictions were there aren't any.

And you're determined to see contradictions in order to justify yourself.

And in your "gun" analogy, the "man who makes a gun and uses it to kill someone" is supposed to be God, right?

Well, it's true that God made the gun, and it's true that God used it to kill somebody. But what you fail to understand is that God is perfectly JUST and RIGHT to do it.

God is JUST and RIGHT to use WHATEVER MEANS he PLEASES to AVENGE HIMSELF and HIS PEOPLE, for his GLORY.

God doesn't OWE anyone MERCY, all he OWES us is JUSTICE.
If he's MERCIFUL, it's by the BLOOD of his SON.

Only the SINLESS SON of GOD could make ATONEMENT for SIN,
And he ACCOMPLISHED the REDEMPTION of his people!

And God destroys ENTIRE NATIONS for the sake of his people, and he has that RIGHT, and he's JUST to do it.

And there isn't a thing you can do about it but BOW to his SON and seek MERCY for your sins, or go to Hell.

That is the God of the Bible, and you'll meet him one day, and without Christ, you will suffer for eternity.

And who knows, you just might get what you ask for. Maybe you'll never hear the Gospel again.

But as long as I have the opportunity, I'm gonna shout it from the rooftops:
THERE'S FORGIVENESS of SINS in JESUS CHRIST!!!!!

Come to Christ and receive MERCY!!!!
If you know you're a SINNER, come to CHRIST and receive MERCY and GRACE!!!!

No matter how HORRIBLE your sins,
REPENT and BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 8:42:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 8:17:27 PM, stubs wrote:
At 7/19/2014 8:10:11 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
No, I'm not Reformed or Calvinist. I just believe what the Scriptures say.

Definitely a Calvinist hahah

Now,
Please....... just think about what you asked for a second.

Your question was:
"If man can not do anything but sin because of his nature, how is man to blame for his sins?"

Alright.

Let me break this down for you one piece at a time.


1. "If man can not do anything but sin..."

The man constantly sins, and never stops sinning.

2. "because of his nature,"

It's HIS nature to sin. And the sin COMES from HIM, and not from OUTSIDE of himself.

Where did I get my nature? Did I choose to have it?

You inherited it from Adam, who fell when he sinned against God, and whose nature became sin when he fell.

The point is that SIN is to blame, and Man is to blame.
God is not to blame at all.

So, you can blame Adam for giving you that sin-nature if you want to, but don't blame God.
Adam sinned, not God.

And not only that, but YOU sin all the time. It's all you CAN do.
And so YOU need ATONEMENT for sin.

You need MERCY and GRACE.
You need the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
And there is no mercy and grace apart from Christ!

THAT is the REAL ISSUE.
So stop JUSTIFYING yourself.
And come like a BEGGAR, and receive FREE GRACE!

The Lord said, in Isaiah, Chapter 55:

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.

Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.

Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you"
The sure mercies of David.

Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.

Surely you shall call a nation you do not know,
And nations who do not know you shall run to you,
Because of the Lord your God,
And the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you."

Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
"For you shall go out with joy,
And be led out with peace;
The mountains and the hills
Shall break forth into singing before you,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree,
And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree;
And it shall be to the Lord for a name,
For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

Hematite12
Posts: 400
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7/19/2014 9:29:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 8:28:51 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/19/2014 8:04:20 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/19/2014 6:48:10 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
First of all, I'm not using the "free will" defense. I've repeatedly said, in this thread and others, than man's will is not free.

You didn't say that in this thread, and frankly I don't keep track of people and their exact views, I just read what they write.

If humans don't have free will, then they are mechanistic, and all of their behavior and actions follow from the moment they were created and the feelings with which they were endowed. This means that God is responsible for any evil men do, not the men.

To help illustrate that, if a man makes a gun and uses it to kill someone, the gun is not to blame. The man is, obviously. It's the same exact thing here.

Secondly, what you seem to blindly assume is that what Man thinks is "good", is actually what is good.
But the fact is, everything Man thinks and does is evil.
It's Man who rapes and strangles a 7-year old girl--NOT GOD.


First off, see above.

Second, you say everything man thinks and does is evil. So, Gandhi isn't ultimately any better a person than Hitler, since everything Gandhi thought and did was also bad, apparently. Do you think rape is evil? Well man is always wrong, you claim, so I guess rape is actually good!

It's man who rapes and strangles, sure. See above. Further however, you stated in the OP that the evil of men is purposed by God for the good of man and his own glory. So I'll ask again: Defend your claim. How is rape, strangulation, and genital mutilation for the good of man and for God's glory?

Furthermore, what was done to the Savior when he walked on this earth was far more evil than the rape and strangulation of a child.

You f***ing disgust me. Look a crying child in the eyes who's genitals are bleeding out because she was penetrated by a pedophile, and tell them that a guy who was simply crucified got it worse. You're absolute scum.

It was the MURDER of GOD'S SON! The sinless, spotless Son of the Living God was TORTURED and KILLED.
There is no evil you can name that is more wicked and depraved than that, considering WHO the VICTIM was!

And if God did not spare his own Son from experiencing such evil, why on earth should spare you or me?
SIN is a HORRIBLE thing. Sin causes the rape and strangulation of children. So you ought to hate SIN instead of God.


You said it was for God's glory, see my bolded above.

But the fact is, you are lost and blind and your only hope of salvation is the Lord Je

Honestly, stop preaching, that's not the purpose of this website or this forum.

You're seeing contradictions were there aren't any.


That's not a response.

And you're determined to see contradictions in order to justify yourself.


Ad hominem, answer my arguments.

And in your "gun" analogy, the "man who makes a gun and uses it to kill someone" is supposed to be God, right?


Yup.

Well, it's true that God made the gun, and it's true that God used it to kill somebody. But what you fail to understand is that God is perfectly JUST and RIGHT to do it.


Ok, so God is just in using his "gun" to rape, mutilate, and strangle a young girl?

What a d*** of a god you believe in.

God is JUST and RIGHT to use WHATEVER MEANS he PLEASES to AVENGE HIMSELF and HIS PEOPLE, for his GLORY.


SO you THINK that WHATEVER god DOES is JUST. THATS an UNFALSIFIABLE ASSERTION.

OCCAM'S RAZOR says that WE should TAKE the PATH that REQUIRES less ASSUMPTIONS. Now TELL me: WHAT takes MORE assumptions: POSITING a deity that is MORAL no MATTER WHAT he DOES, even WHEN it VIOLATES our PUREST MORAL NOTIONS, or SIMPLY believing that THERE ISN'T such an OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNIPOTENT, AND OMNISCIENT DEITY?

God doesn't OWE anyone MERCY, all he OWES us is JUSTICE.
If he's MERCIFUL, it's by the BLOOD of his SON.


Baseless ASSERTIONS.

Only the SINLESS SON of GOD could make ATONEMENT for SIN,
And he ACCOMPLISHED the REDEMPTION of his people!


MORE baseless ASSERTIONS.

And God destroys ENTIRE NATIONS for the sake of his people, and he has that RIGHT, and he's JUST to do it.


MORE bare ASSERTIONS.

And there isn't a thing you can do about it but BOW to his SON and seek MERCY for your sins, or go to Hell.


What a CRAPPY GOD.

That is the God of the Bible, and you'll meet him one day, and without Christ, you will suffer for eternity.


I'M NOT going to MEET something that DOESN'T EXIST.

And who knows, you just might get what you ask for. Maybe you'll never hear the Gospel again.


DARN it.

But as long as I have the opportunity, I'm gonna shout it from the rooftops:
THERE'S FORGIVENESS of SINS in JESUS CHRIST!!!!!


WE'RE ON a FORUM, I don't SEE any ROOFTOPS!

Come to Christ and receive MERCY!!!!
If you know you're a SINNER, come to CHRIST and receive MERCY and GRACE!!!!


I'D REALLY rather NOT.

No matter how HORRIBLE your sins,
REPENT and BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

OH that's QUAINT, so if HITLER repented RIGHT before HE DIED, he would GO to HEAVEN. BUT if GANDHI never CAME around to CHRISTIANITY, he BURNS in HELL for ETERNITY.

SERIOUSLY, your GOD is CRAPPY.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/19/2014 9:59:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 9:29:47 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/19/2014 8:28:51 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/19/2014 8:04:20 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/19/2014 6:48:10 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
First of all, I'm not using the "free will" defense. I've repeatedly said, in this thread and others, than man's will is not free.

You didn't say that in this thread, and frankly I don't keep track of people and their exact views, I just read what they write.

If humans don't have free will, then they are mechanistic, and all of their behavior and actions follow from the moment they were created and the feelings with which they were endowed. This means that God is responsible for any evil men do, not the men.

To help illustrate that, if a man makes a gun and uses it to kill someone, the gun is not to blame. The man is, obviously. It's the same exact thing here.

Secondly, what you seem to blindly assume is that what Man thinks is "good", is actually what is good.
But the fact is, everything Man thinks and does is evil.
It's Man who rapes and strangles a 7-year old girl--NOT GOD.


First off, see above.

Second, you say everything man thinks and does is evil. So, Gandhi isn't ultimately any better a person than Hitler, since everything Gandhi thought and did was also bad, apparently. Do you think rape is evil? Well man is always wrong, you claim, so I guess rape is actually good!

It's man who rapes and strangles, sure. See above. Further however, you stated in the OP that the evil of men is purposed by God for the good of man and his own glory. So I'll ask again: Defend your claim. How is rape, strangulation, and genital mutilation for the good of man and for God's glory?

Furthermore, what was done to the Savior when he walked on this earth was far more evil than the rape and strangulation of a child.

You f***ing disgust me. Look a crying child in the eyes who's genitals are bleeding out because she was penetrated by a pedophile, and tell them that a guy who was simply crucified got it worse. You're absolute scum.

It was the MURDER of GOD'S SON! The sinless, spotless Son of the Living God was TORTURED and KILLED.
There is no evil you can name that is more wicked and depraved than that, considering WHO the VICTIM was!

And if God did not spare his own Son from experiencing such evil, why on earth should spare you or me?
SIN is a HORRIBLE thing. Sin causes the rape and strangulation of children. So you ought to hate SIN instead of God.


You said it was for God's glory, see my bolded above.

But the fact is, you are lost and blind and your only hope of salvation is the Lord Je

Honestly, stop preaching, that's not the purpose of this website or this forum.

You're seeing contradictions were there aren't any.


That's not a response.

And you're determined to see contradictions in order to justify yourself.


Ad hominem, answer my arguments.

And in your "gun" analogy, the "man who makes a gun and uses it to kill someone" is supposed to be God, right?


Yup.

Well, it's true that God made the gun, and it's true that God used it to kill somebody. But what you fail to understand is that God is perfectly JUST and RIGHT to do it.


Ok, so God is just in using his "gun" to rape, mutilate, and strangle a young girl?

What a d*** of a god you believe in.

God is JUST and RIGHT to use WHATEVER MEANS he PLEASES to AVENGE HIMSELF and HIS PEOPLE, for his GLORY.


SO you THINK that WHATEVER god DOES is JUST. THATS an UNFALSIFIABLE ASSERTION.

OCCAM'S RAZOR says that WE should TAKE the PATH that REQUIRES less ASSUMPTIONS. Now TELL me: WHAT takes MORE assumptions: POSITING a deity that is MORAL no MATTER WHAT he DOES, even WHEN it VIOLATES our PUREST MORAL NOTIONS, or SIMPLY believing that THERE ISN'T such an OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNIPOTENT, AND OMNISCIENT DEITY?

God doesn't OWE anyone MERCY, all he OWES us is JUSTICE.
If he's MERCIFUL, it's by the BLOOD of his SON.


Baseless ASSERTIONS.

Only the SINLESS SON of GOD could make ATONEMENT for SIN,
And he ACCOMPLISHED the REDEMPTION of his people!


MORE baseless ASSERTIONS.

And God destroys ENTIRE NATIONS for the sake of his people, and he has that RIGHT, and he's JUST to do it.


MORE bare ASSERTIONS.

And there isn't a thing you can do about it but BOW to his SON and seek MERCY for your sins, or go to Hell.


What a CRAPPY GOD.

That is the God of the Bible, and you'll meet him one day, and without Christ, you will suffer for eternity.


I'M NOT going to MEET something that DOESN'T EXIST.

And who knows, you just might get what you ask for. Maybe you'll never hear the Gospel again.


DARN it.

But as long as I have the opportunity, I'm gonna shout it from the rooftops:
THERE'S FORGIVENESS of SINS in JESUS CHRIST!!!!!


WE'RE ON a FORUM, I don't SEE any ROOFTOPS!

Come to Christ and receive MERCY!!!!
If you know you're a SINNER, come to CHRIST and receive MERCY and GRACE!!!!


I'D REALLY rather NOT.

No matter how HORRIBLE your sins,
REPENT and BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

OH that's QUAINT, so if HITLER repented RIGHT before HE DIED, he would GO to HEAVEN. BUT if GANDHI never CAME around to CHRISTIANITY, he BURNS in HELL for ETERNITY.

SERIOUSLY, your GOD is CRAPPY.

So, to RECAP:

You don't want God's mercy.
You don't want to HEAR about God's mercy.
My God is "crappy."
And he's to blame for the rape and strangulation of children.

And you appeal to "Occam's Razor" in order to find fault with God,
yet you won't use "Occam's Razor" to find fault with Mankind.

You see, if you actually used "Occam's Razor" HONESTLY, it would go something like THIS:
"THE PERSON WHO COMMITS THE CRIME IS THE CRIMINAL."

That seems like the path that requires the least amount of assumptions, now doesn't it?

In order to pin the blame on God, you have to assume all kinds of things about ethics and metaphysics.
But it's a clear case that the one who committed the crime is guilty!

So, either stop pretending to use "Occam's Razor", or try to be HONEST with your use of it.

And stop trying to justify yourself and your sin, and come to Christ.

It's only in CHRIST that a guilty sinner can have a full pardon for all of his sins.
Come to Christ and be reconciled to Almighty God.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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7/19/2014 10:52:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 9:59:27 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, to RECAP:

You don't want God's mercy.

You don't want the Flying Spaghetti Monster's mercy.

You don't want to HEAR about God's mercy.

You don't want to HEAR about the Flying Spaghetti Monster's mercy.

My God is "crappy."

Well, he does rape and strangle children for the good of man and for his own glory, according to you.

And he's to blame for the rape and strangulation of children.


You yourself said that the gun maker is to blame, not the gun. And you hold that humans are mechanisms, just like guns. It follows, then, that God is to blame for these things.

And you appeal to "Occam's Razor" in order to find fault with God,
yet you won't use "Occam's Razor" to find fault with Mankind.


You don't know what Occam's Razor is, do you?

You see, if you actually used "Occam's Razor" HONESTLY, it would go something like THIS:
"THE PERSON WHO COMMITS THE CRIME IS THE CRIMINAL."

That seems like the path that requires the least amount of assumptions, now doesn't it?


Yes it does. You're the one who's making that conclusion impossible with your ridiculous notion that humans don't have free will, and yet we still are to blame for our bad morals.

In order to pin the blame on God, you have to assume all kinds of things about ethics and metaphysics.
But it's a clear case that the one who committed the crime is guilty!


Not if we accept your theodicy.

So, either stop pretending to use "Occam's Razor", or try to be HONEST with your use of it.

And stop trying to justify yourself and your sin, and come to Christ.


Lol

It's only in CHRIST that a guilty sinner can have a full pardon for all of his sins.
Come to Christ and be reconciled to Almighty God.

It's ONLY in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER that a guilty sinner can have full pardon for all of his sins.

Come to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and be reconciled to Almighty Pasta
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/20/2014 12:20:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 10:52:31 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 7/19/2014 9:59:27 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, to RECAP:

You don't want God's mercy.

You don't want the Flying Spaghetti Monster's mercy.

You don't want to HEAR about God's mercy.

You don't want to HEAR about the Flying Spaghetti Monster's mercy.

My God is "crappy."

Well, he does rape and strangle children for the good of man and for his own glory, according to you.

And he's to blame for the rape and strangulation of children.


You yourself said that the gun maker is to blame, not the gun. And you hold that humans are mechanisms, just like guns. It follows, then, that God is to blame for these things.

And you appeal to "Occam's Razor" in order to find fault with God,
yet you won't use "Occam's Razor" to find fault with Mankind.


You don't know what Occam's Razor is, do you?

You see, if you actually used "Occam's Razor" HONESTLY, it would go something like THIS:
"THE PERSON WHO COMMITS THE CRIME IS THE CRIMINAL."

That seems like the path that requires the least amount of assumptions, now doesn't it?


Yes it does. You're the one who's making that conclusion impossible with your ridiculous notion that humans don't have free will, and yet we still are to blame for our bad morals.

In order to pin the blame on God, you have to assume all kinds of things about ethics and metaphysics.
But it's a clear case that the one who committed the crime is guilty!


Not if we accept your theodicy.

So, either stop pretending to use "Occam's Razor", or try to be HONEST with your use of it.

And stop trying to justify yourself and your sin, and come to Christ.


Lol

It's only in CHRIST that a guilty sinner can have a full pardon for all of his sins.
Come to Christ and be reconciled to Almighty God.

It's ONLY in the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER that a guilty sinner can have full pardon for all of his sins.

Come to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and be reconciled to Almighty Pasta

Oh man,

So, you got completely owned on "Occam's Razor." And now all you've got left is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Look, you are in danger of Hell. And I'm trying to warn you.
I lose nothing if you go to Hell.

But you will lose everything.

I'm not telling you to join a church or turn over a new leaf.
I'm saying, without Christ, you will burn for eternity.

There is forgiveness in Christ.
There is mercy in Christ.
Sinners are justified by faith in Christ.

So, stop being so foolish.
If you don't want mercy, so be it.
But don't use such lame excuses.

God is sovereign.
And if he elects to save you, he'll save you.
But if he does not elect to save you, you'll go to Hell.

And you'll either bow in this life, and be saved from God's wrath, or you'll bow as he casts you into Hell.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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7/20/2014 5:13:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So your gos is a hypocritical, genocidal, infanticidal, child raping narcassist.
Good luck spending an eternity with that nutjob.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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7/20/2014 7:13:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It is true. Atheists are clueless as to how an MGB could exist, given all the evil in the world. We have been begging theists for centuries to enlighten us, but so far they have always declined.

sovereigngracereigns 10
Now, this is important to understand:
Man loves that which is evil and hates that which is good.
In other words, man hates God.
Can you prove that ?

sovereigngracereigns 10
But the fact is, everything Man thinks and does is evil.[1]
It's Man who rapes and strangles a 7-year old girl--NOT GOD.
[1] Can you prove that ?
It is not Man who raped that girl, but a man. The communalization of guilt is a primitive tradition most of us have dispensed with.

sovereigngracereigns 11
Furthermore, what was done to the Savior when he walked on this earth was far more evil than the rape and strangulation of a child.
It was the MURDER of GOD'S SON! The sinless, spotless Son of the Living God was TORTURED and KILLED.
There is no evil you can name that is more wicked and depraved than that, considering WHO the VICTIM was!
Are those facts or just your personal opinions ?

sovereigngracereigns 12
But all those who believe on Christ, and come to the Father through him, find mercy and forgiveness of sins.
What evidence can you present to support that claim ?

- Double_R 2
Blame men for evil all you want, God still created man. He could have easily created a world with no evil, he chose not to.
- stubs 14
It is reasonable to believe that God may not have been able to create a world in which there is more good/goodness than this one while still giving human beings free will.
It is also reasonable to believe that an MGB could have created a world where there is more good than this one while still giving humans free will.

sovereigngracereigns 12
The fact is, God alone can save.
Man can NOT, by his own will, come to God.
He can't do ANYTHING that would give him room to boast.
Indeed. Otherwise God would have to share his glory with some lowly human. That would be embarrassing.

Mhykiel 18
But Atheist do not want to face such definitions. They are content with the strawman argument of saying "Good" is what people want good to be. And "Evil" is any suffering (consequent or not) of humans.
How would you feel about definitions of the type
evil : the accomplishment of God's will
good : the lack of evil
?

Hematite12 19
To help illustrate that, if a man makes a gun and uses it to kill someone, the gun is not to blame. The man is, obviously. It's the same exact thing here.
You are mistaken. The man is innocent because he doesn't have free will. God made him do it for God's glory.

sovereigngracereigns 20
No, I'm not Reformed or Calvinist. I just believe what the Scriptures say.
Like there having been earth before there was light and there having been water before there was land ?

sovereigngracereigns 20
If:
1. The man constantly sins, and does nothing but sin,
and
2. The sin COMES from HIM, and not from outside of himself,
If a man grows a scrotal lymphedema and the condition comes from him, and not from outside of himself, is he to blame for it ?

sovereigngracereigns 21
It's a result of deliberate, willful ignorance.
Is that a fact or just your personal opinion ?

sovereigngracereigns 22
Well, it's true that God made the gun, and it's true that God used it to kill somebody. But what you [Hematite12] fail to understand is that God is perfectly JUST and RIGHT to do it.
What you fail to understand is that God is perfectly UNJUST and WRONG for doing it.

sovereigngracereigns 23
And God destroys ENTIRE NATIONS for the sake of his people, and he has that RIGHT, and he's JUST to do it.
And there isn't a thing you can do about it but BOW to his SON and seek MERCY for your sins, or go to Hell.
In other words : might makes right. If I were strong enough to kick God's behind and I felt like it, then it would be RIGHT and JUST for me to do so.

sovereigngracereigns 24
The point is that SIN is to blame, and Man is to blame.
God is not to blame at all.
Is that a fact or just your personal opinion ?

sovereigngracereigns 24
And not only that, but YOU sin all the time. It's all you CAN do.
And so YOU need ATONEMENT for sin.
Who fault is it that sin requires atonement ?

sovereigngracereigns 26
You [Hematite12] don't want God's mercy.
You don't want to HEAR about God's mercy.
My God is "crappy."
And he's to blame for the rape and strangulation of children.
According to you he is indeed responsible for the evil people do. I believe in shared responsibility.

sovereigngracereigns 28
So, you [Hematite12] got completely owned on "Occam's Razor."[2] And now all you've got left is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
[2] No, he didn't.

Why is that theists keep proselytizing under the futile hope that will convert atheists ? Most atheists are sceptics. Sceptics wear a sceptic armour. Stories, fallacies and gratuitous statements bounce off our armour without making a scratch. However, we are completely defenseless against solid evidence. It pierces unhindered through our armor, corrupting our mind. The first theist to throw enough solid evidence at a sceptic gains a new follower.
Why do theists not exploit that weakness and in stead bury us in completely ineffective bald assertions ?
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.