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Is This A Contradiction In Islam?

BradK
Posts: 475
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7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?
skinker
Posts: 345
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7/20/2014 8:37:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think the wisdom of Jesus always applies in the case of telling false prophets from true ones: Forget the words. It's what the words produce in actual human behavior that you look at to judge the real worth of spiritual instruction from prophesy bearers. Muhammad's words as far as I can judge from my reading of the Quran and matching its words with the real actions of Muslims are that the guy's a totalitarian meglomaniac who was capable and still is capable of swindling believers in God who can't recognize totalitarian warlords using God for their own ambitions. No true spiritual person would do so yet it is the mark of Organized Abrahamic Religions, Judaism, Pauline Christianity, and Muhammadism, to instruct their believers to obey totalitarian warlords, Moses and Mosaic Law, Paul instructing Christians to obey Rome or face eternal damnation. Muhammad came later telling Muslims obey him, his book and his Allah or face eternal damnation and as we are well aware of, face death at the hands of fellow Muslims here on earth, this behavior being the way Pauline Christians used to act under totalitarian RCC control of society (which is why Mafia and criminals thrived in RCC ruled nations) and Muslims still do, most Muslims living in cultures unfamiliar with democratic and human rights fought for against religious and secular totalitarians. Add guns, rockets to ignorance and totalitarian ideology and culture you get our current world where Muslims are acting out feudal warlord social ideology that guarantees violence rules social institutions instead of rational debate.

Just ask any Muslim to tell you which document is most important to him or her:
The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights and think of why we fought Hitler and Stalin, Mao, and Pot Pol, Idi Amin, Saddam, and the invisible ghost of Muhammad..
Fatihah
Posts: 7,765
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7/20/2014 11:27:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM, BradK wrote:
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?

Response: There is no contradiction. Any reference to going to Hell or Paradise is part of the agreement made by yourself and Allah. Meaning that you were in another state and was asked to be human and be tested in this life and be judged and rewarded according to your deeds. You said yes. Thus you were created.Therefore, a reference to Paradise or Hell is not a compulsion, but a warning to a condition you have already agreed to be judged by. No contradiction.
BradK
Posts: 475
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7/20/2014 3:07:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:27:52 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM, BradK wrote:
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?

Response: There is no contradiction. Any reference to going to Hell or Paradise is part of the agreement made by yourself and Allah. Meaning that you were in another state and was asked to be human and be tested in this life and be judged and rewarded according to your deeds. You said yes. Thus you were created.Therefore, a reference to Paradise or Hell is not a compulsion, but a warning to a condition you have already agreed to be judged by. No contradiction.

I didn't agree to anything like this with anyone.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,765
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7/20/2014 3:10:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 3:07:59 PM, BradK wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:27:52 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM, BradK wrote:
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?

Response: There is no contradiction. Any reference to going to Hell or Paradise is part of the agreement made by yourself and Allah. Meaning that you were in another state and was asked to be human and be tested in this life and be judged and rewarded according to your deeds. You said yes. Thus you were created.Therefore, a reference to Paradise or Hell is not a compulsion, but a warning to a condition you have already agreed to be judged by. No contradiction.

I didn't agree to anything like this with anyone.

Response: Then there is no contradiction.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief. On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights? Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/20/2014 6:04:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief.
Interesting you should say that Ma'am. Remember, however, to present your evidence.

On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion
That's the one and only absolute claim he made on the matter. That you, a severely mentally injured person, has a difficulty distinguishing between coercion by the force of followers, and punishment by God for not obeying Him, does not make your assertion any truer than you would want it to be.

to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that
Find them. Do it, you pathetic excuse for a mental retard.

with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion
Someone send this idiot flowers. (Paint them in one color, though, as we would not want to trigger another seizure.)

as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.
How exactly is the punishment of Hell for disbelief akin to using terrorist methods to forcing people to believe?

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible
Correct, because you cannot find one. While you're fully allowed to use the term Muhammadan, remember that all it does is make you look more like the mentally challenged person you are, and less of a credible debater. Or person who should be taken seriously.

and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights?
Specify how that is important. At no point are Muslims necessitated to disagree with the UN Declaration of Human Right. That not all of it agrees with a Muslim individual's opinion should not come as a surprise, as the entire lawmaking process in the UN is subjective, not objective.

Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.
When you prove that - and you will not - feel free to return. Deluded prick.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,765
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7/20/2014 6:22:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief. On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights? Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.

Response: Hey Stinker,

If you are going to sign in as different users, at least don't repeat the same arguments.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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7/20/2014 7:26:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 6:22:45 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief. On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights? Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.

Response: Hey Stinker,

If you are going to sign in as different users, at least don't repeat the same arguments.

Yeah just trollet that kid... bornofgod friend of them too... the same person...
Never fart near dog
Fatihah
Posts: 7,765
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7/20/2014 7:27:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 7:26:47 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 7/20/2014 6:22:45 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief. On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights? Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.

Response: Hey Stinker,

If you are going to sign in as different users, at least don't repeat the same arguments.

Yeah just trollet that kid... bornofgod friend of them too... the same person...

Response: I see.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/21/2014 7:26:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 6:04:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief.
Interesting you should say that Ma'am. Remember, however, to present your evidence.

Me: Hahaha...what a perfect example of quite schizoid Muslim reaction right off the bat as I am not a "Ma'am" but a man.

On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion
That's the one and only absolute claim he made on the matter. That you, a severely mentally injured person, has a difficulty distinguishing between coercion by the force of followers, and punishment by God for not obeying Him, does not make your assertion any truer than you would want it to be.

Hahahahahahahaha, the intellectually challenged Muslim can only fling baby name-calling insults as he has no intellectual defense for Muhammad's obvious lying about "no coercion in religion", yeah, let's square that with this:

"Iraqi Christians flee after Isis issue Mosul ultimatum

7 hours ago

In the past few days, hundreds of Christian families have left Mosul in northern Iraq.

Isis Sunni militants gave Christians an ultimatum, convert to Islam or face death. Hundreds chose to leave the city.

The BBC's Jiyar Gol has been to the front line near Mosul and has met some of the families who just escaped."

Me: Muslim lying s.a.s face what you Muslims really do to us Christians, Muslim anti-humanitarian creep!

to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that
Find them. Do it, you pathetic excuse for a mental retard.

with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion
Someone send this idiot flowers. (Paint them in one color, though, as we would not want to trigger another seizure.)

Me: You have no religion but this cardboard cutout cheap imitation Moses stealing Mosaic Law to call it Sharia Law as well as stealing our Jewish religious theology because Muhammad had none of his own. You can't think morally as your IDOL didn't act morally so there's no moral model for you to follow, so you think lying is OK, telling non-Muslims lies about Muhammadism being a "religion of peace" is OK. Well, stop killing Christians and live up to your so-called religion of peace.

as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.
How exactly is the punishment of Hell for disbelief akin to using terrorist methods to forcing people to believe?

Me: see my answer right below:

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible

Correct, because you cannot find one. While you're fully allowed to use the term Muhammadan, remember that all it does is make you look more like the mentally challenged person you are, and less of a credible debater. Or person who should be taken seriously.

Me: I do find real Muslims who do follow and practice a religion of peace but it isn't you guys, that's for sure. Daily news shows us the truth there about how you Sunnis and Shias cannot be human beings but are just wild animals armed with guns. Only the Ahmadiyyahs are true Muslims and practice Islam, surrender to God as Peace. These are Muslims, not you Muhammadans. Muhammadans never learned the root word of "Islam" is our Jewish word, Shalom, Arabic, Salaam, Peace. Without it religious surrender becomes surrender to the human warlord's ambition instead of serving God.


and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights?
Specify how that is important. At no point are Muslims necessitated to disagree with the UN Declaration of Human Right. That not all of it agrees with a Muslim individual's opinion should not come as a surprise, as the entire lawmaking process in the UN is subjective, not objective.

Me: The Quran's laws negate human rights right and left and there's no way one can observe one set of rules vs. the other without huge contradiction. You won't be honest and admit that reality because Muhammadism teaches you to be dishonest in your thinking as the IDOL dictates how and what you must think. Do I have to list the Quran's anti-Human Rights commands for you to understand that you can't snow us non-Muslims trying to hide Muhammadism totalitarian anti-human rights ideology?

Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.
When you prove that - and you will not - feel free to return. Deluded prick.

Me: Face what your killer ape cohorts are doing to wreck human rights of non-Muslims in Muslim controlled countries before you dare name-calling non-Muslims. Grow up and get a real religion as you don't have anything but primitive warlord rip-off killer ape instruction manual that produces what we non-Muslims can see of the Muslim world: garbage in: garbage out, killer ape ideology in: killer ape actions out. Huge body count and you want to sell this "religion" of Muhammad to others? Are YOU nuts?
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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7/21/2014 7:39:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 6:04:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Muhammadism teaches Muslims to be clones of Muhammad who was quite schizoid about his religious beliefs re the use of religious terrorism to force belief.
Interesting you should say that Ma'am. Remember, however, to present your evidence.

On one hand he claims his religion has no coercion
That's the one and only absolute claim he made on the matter. That you, a severely mentally injured person, has a difficulty distinguishing between coercion by the force of followers, and punishment by God for not obeying Him, does not make your assertion any truer than you would want it to be.

to it yet it's easy to find the verses that counter that
Find them. Do it, you pathetic excuse for a mental retard.

with just about the most heavy coercion to believe in any Abrahamic religion
Someone send this idiot flowers. (Paint them in one color, though, as we would not want to trigger another seizure.)

as Muhammad goes out of his way to describe the torments Allah has waiting for those who disobey Allah's commands.
How exactly is the punishment of Hell for disbelief akin to using terrorist methods to forcing people to believe?

But trying to debate rationally with a Muhammadan clone is impossible
Correct, because you cannot find one. While you're fully allowed to use the term Muhammadan, remember that all it does is make you look more like the mentally challenged person you are, and less of a credible debater. Or person who should be taken seriously.

and only this should be asked of each and every Muslim a non-Muslim encounters: Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights?
Specify how that is important. At no point are Muslims necessitated to disagree with the UN Declaration of Human Right. That not all of it agrees with a Muslim individual's opinion should not come as a surprise, as the entire lawmaking process in the UN is subjective, not objective.

Their answer or shall we say their evasion of answering this question tells us everything we need to know about Muhammad's Islam: it is a danger to every human being who treasures human rights.
When you prove that - and you will not - feel free to return. Deluded prick.

Why do you use a picture of a nazi as your avatar?
Mineva
Posts: 336
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7/21/2014 12:52:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM, BradK wrote:
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never :be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the :disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join :Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the :same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline :saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for :it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to :physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten :them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your :request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which :is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join :Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not :equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to :me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory :statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?

So sorry I didnt read the whole post, but as I understand, you mean why it says "there is no compulsion" and then it says "if you wont believe....."

If you dont believe in Islam, if you dont believe in Allah, why you care about its "warnings" or with your understanding "threats" ? Just dont care. This is not a contradiction, Islam calls you on the true way and you dont have to comply with this response. If you reject to be on the true way, there will be some results of this.

Peace
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/21/2014 5:48:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:52:40 PM, Mineva wrote:
At 7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM, BradK wrote:
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never :be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the :disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join :Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the :same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline :saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for :it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to :physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten :them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your :request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which :is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join :Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not :equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to :me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory :statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?



So sorry I didnt read the whole post, but as I understand, you mean why it says "there is no compulsion" and then it says "if you wont believe....."

If you dont believe in Islam, if you dont believe in Allah, why you care about its "warnings" or with your understanding "threats" ? Just dont care. This is not a contradiction, Islam calls you on the true way and you dont have to comply with this response. If you reject to be on the true way, there will be some results of this.

Peace

Mineva, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, get Morality! We non-Muslim care about what you Muslims believe in because you take your beliefs and go out and kill people who don't believe the way you do. Do you ever look at the news? Do you ever stop to think about all the Muslim killings and bombings going on? I don't want to hear about Zionists either as an excuse for Muslim immorality either. You Muslims do not accept moral responsibility for Muslim killers and Muslim killer ideology. That makes you Muslims a danger to all the rest of us because you don't think rationally, because believing in a 7th century warlord and his fascist anti-human rights ideology using God for cover for totalitarian conquest and control of the world. We just don't want any more FASCISTS running loose promoting FASCISM in religious form.

Please go learn why we in the West fought against Fascism and totalitarians and thus will NEVER EVER accept Muhammadism. Nazism, Communism, Muhammadism, no decent person needs these fascist ideologies in our world. Please take your fascist ideas to another venue as you Muslims just pollute religious discussions with your horrible ideas and inability to stop Idolatry of a fascist warlord and his fascist ideology you think is a religion because it uses religious language to fool gullible believers.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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7/21/2014 6:43:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 5:17:09 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Which is most important to humanity? The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights?

This freaking sentence lol https://www.youtube.com...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2014 3:21:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 7:26:08 AM, A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
Hahaha...what a perfect example of quite schizoid Muslim reaction right off the bat as I am not a "Ma'am" but a man.
I beg to differ, Ma'am.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
Hahahahahahahaha, the intellectually challenged Muslim can only fling baby name-calling insults as he has no intellectual defense for Muhammad's obvious lying about "no coercion in religion", yeah, let's square that with this:
My defense is perfect, considering it is based on undeniable fact. Feel free, imbecile idiot, to present your arguments, and then I will oblige to demolish them continuously.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
"Iraqi Christians flee after Isis issue Mosul ultimatum
7 hours ago
In the past few days, hundreds of Christian families have left Mosul in northern Iraq.
Isis Sunni militants gave Christians an ultimatum, convert to Islam or face death. Hundreds chose to leave the city.
The BBC's Jiyar Gol has been to the front line near Mosul and has met some of the families who just escaped."
None of which is relevant to the ideology of Islam. Remember your pills, honey.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
Muslim lying s.a.s face what you Muslims really do to us Christians, Muslim anti-humanitarian creep!
I'll just leave this as is.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
You have no religion but this cardboard cutout cheap imitation Moses stealing Mosaic Law to call it Sharia Law as well as stealing our Jewish religious theology because Muhammad had none of his own. You can't think morally as your IDOL didn't act morally so there's no moral model for you to follow, so you think lying is OK, telling non-Muslims lies about Muhammadism being a "religion of peace" is OK. Well, stop killing Christians and live up to your so-called religion of peace.
No rational Muslim will take responsibility for imbeciles who murder innocents in the name of religion. We defend our religion intellectually, condemn terrorist acts as much as it is proper to do, but that is the extent to which we feel morally obliged to act. Concerning Shari'a Law, you are out of touch with reality, pathetic idiot, as the difference between it and Mosaic Law is immense. Whereas Shari'a Law say, aims to protect the victim of rape, Mosaic Law calls for the rapist to marry her in general circumstances. That's to name one filthy example of your perverted, arbitrary and forged law. It is nothing, and has never been, like Shari'a Law.

How exactly is the punishment of Hell for disbelief akin to using terrorist methods to forcing people to believe?
A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote: see my answer right below:
You made no attempt at answering my question. What are you afraid of, Ma'am? Get to it.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
I do find real Muslims who do follow and practice a religion of peace but it isn't you guys, that's for sure. Daily news shows us the truth there about how you Sunnis and Shias cannot be human beings but are just wild animals armed with guns. Only the Ahmadiyyahs are true Muslims and practice Islam, surrender to God as Peace. These are Muslims, not you Muhammadans. Muhammadans never learned the root word of "Islam" is our Jewish word, Shalom, Arabic, Salaam, Peace. Without it religious surrender becomes surrender to the human warlord's ambition instead of serving God.
Interesting how you automatically label me as Sunni or Shi'a, while I label myself as neither. For your information, I am a white Muslim, and my culture is drastically different to the many ones in Middle East or other parts of the Muslim world. I take zero, zero, responsibility for what they do, and I hardly consider myself part of their group. That we are both Muslims only speaks of the religion we adhere to, not culture. About Ahmadiyyas being the "true" Muslims, well, uh, try again.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
The Quran's laws negate human rights right and left and there's no way one can observe one set of rules vs. the other without huge contradiction.
Not at all, but nice argument. Great evidence. I feel overwhelmed with such excellent debating on your side.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
You won't be honest and admit that reality because Muhammadism teaches you to be dishonest in your thinking as the IDOL dictates how and what you must think. Do I have to list the Quran's anti-Human Rights commands for you to understand that you can't snow us non-Muslims trying to hide Muhammadism totalitarian anti-human rights ideology?
Yes, please, list them. Chapter 8:12-13 or something like that. List. List. List, you moron.

A mental retard, although he doesn't see himself as such, wrote:
Me: Face what your killer ape cohorts are doing to wreck human rights of non-Muslims in Muslim controlled countries before you dare name-calling non-Muslims. Grow up and get a real religion as you don't have anything but primitive warlord rip-off killer ape instruction manual that produces what we non-Muslims can see of the Muslim world: garbage in: garbage out, killer ape ideology in: killer ape actions out. Huge body count and you want to sell this "religion" of Muhammad to others? Are YOU nuts?
Once more, you worthless assembly of atoms - I have no desire to defend the deeds of all Muslims, and they are not acting upon the teachings of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims throughout history have defined Islam in fundamentally different ways than modern Muslims. Do come back with arguments, though. Thus far, you have nothing. Worthless assertions.

Try again, Ma'am. Or, imbecile retard, if you prefer that.
Composer
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7/22/2014 4:53:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 3:21:05 AM, Mirza wrote:
Try again, Ma'am. Or, imbecile retard, if you prefer that.
You homosexuals have a habit of insulting others that won't degrade themselves to YOUR level and your beliefs are based upon the following Historical facts also -

Muhammad was an illiterate goat-herder; whose testimony was absolutely documented hearsay and his personal Historical record and Qu'ranic admission of being a moral sinner is a disgrace to him and on top of that, he admits to having been deceived and misled by this Satan you Moslems apparently also believe in? (cf. (Source: http://www.answering-islam.org...)

Your vindicated heterosexual Mentor & Saviour benevolent moi!
Mirza
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7/22/2014 8:05:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 7:39:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
Why do you use a picture of a nazi as your avatar?
Be honest. Can you name the person in the avatar?
Mirza
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7/22/2014 8:07:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 4:53:21 AM, Composer wrote:
You homosexuals have a habit of insulting others that won't degrade themselves to YOUR level and your beliefs are based upon the following Historical facts also -

Muhammad was an illiterate goat-herder; whose testimony was absolutely documented hearsay and his personal Historical record and Qu'ranic admission of being a moral sinner is a disgrace to him and on top of that, he admits to having been deceived and misled by this Satan you Moslems apparently also believe in? (cf. (Source: http://www.answering-islam.org...)

Your vindicated heterosexual Mentor & Saviour benevolent moi!
Is your mental illness a side effect of your current medication for whatever disease, or is the medication meant to treat a pre-existing mental condition?
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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7/22/2014 8:20:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 8:07:36 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2014 4:53:21 AM, Composer wrote:
You homosexuals have a habit of insulting others that won't degrade themselves to YOUR level and your beliefs are based upon the following Historical facts also -

Muhammad was an illiterate goat-herder; whose testimony was absolutely documented hearsay and his personal Historical record and Qu'ranic admission of being a moral sinner is a disgrace to him and on top of that, he admits to having been deceived and misled by this Satan you Moslems apparently also believe in? (cf. (Source: http://www.answering-islam.org...)

Your vindicated heterosexual Mentor & Saviour benevolent moi!
Is your mental illness a side effect of your current medication for whatever disease, or is the medication meant to treat a pre-existing mental condition?

Tell your mummy to wash your mouth out with soap.
Children really should be seen and not heard.
Off ya go now.
Mirza
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7/22/2014 8:22:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 8:20:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
Tell your mummy to wash your mouth out with soap.
Children really should be seen and not heard.
Off ya go now.
Get on my level. You can't. But try.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/22/2014 8:24:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here it is, Mirza shows us exactly why we non-Muslims have reason to fear Muslims because of their immorality, their inability to tell right from wrong:

"Interesting how you automatically label me as Sunni or Shi'a, while I label myself as neither. For your information, I am a white Muslim, and my culture is drastically different to the many ones in Middle East or other parts of the Muslim world. I take zero, zero, responsibility for what they do, and I hardly consider myself part of their group. That we are both Muslims only speaks of the religion we adhere to, not culture. About Ahmadiyyas being the "true" Muslims, well, uh, try again.

Mirza won't take moral responsibility for Muhammadan killers and how and why they get that way, how a man can be raised in a culture that allows him to kill innocent children, kidnap girls for ransom, sell black people into slavery, use human beings for shields in war, and refuse to be accountable for causing immense death and destruction of human beings in the name of Allah. This is what religious fascism teaches Muhammadans and makes them into moral cretins whose totalitarian ideology must be exposed everywhere non-Muslims interact with totalitarian Muhammadans. Now we have two litmus tests to see that Muhammadans are dangerous people to everyone who desires peace on earth and respect for life and human rights: Test One: Ask the Muhammadan which set of words are most important to the welfare of humankind: The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights. Test Two: Ask the Muhammadan why are Ahmadiyyah Muslims who practice a true religion of peace persecuted by Muhammadans? In both cases Muhammadans are shown to desire to attack those who champion human rights and peace between people as Muhammadism is an ideology of continuous warfare to instill fascist religious government control over human life.

Do not be fooled because there are so many Muhammadans in the world that this legitimizes their fascist religious ideology. We saw the same rise in world membership to two other totalitarian ideologies within the last 100 years, Nazis and Communists, both gone from power now except for the China holdout because human beings HATE totalitarians when they start killing people. Now Muhammadans have shown how easy they sink into killer ape mentality and desire for total control regardless of cost to human life. That's always the mark of fascists--their willingness to turn a blind eye to moral responsibility in order to serve a Master as brainless minions.
Mirza
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7/22/2014 7:40:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 8:24:14 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Here it is, Mirza shows us exactly why we non-Muslims have reason to fear Muslims because of their immorality, their inability to tell right from wrong:
Deleting every other thing I've said, coward? Filthy imbecile.

Mirza won't take moral responsibility for Muhammadan killers and how and why they get that way,
Correct, nor should you or anyone else take moral responsibility for the massive child abuse by Catholic priests, or the most popular supporters of genocide and political oppression, the Vatican Church. Et cetera. Until you can present any solid evidence that points toward a moral obligation on my side to take responsibility for what cavemen that I have zero relations with do, then I will remain as morally apathetic as anyone else.

how a man can be raised in a culture that allows him to kill innocent children,
Not my responsibility.

kidnap girls for ransom,
Not my responsibility.

sell black people into slavery,
Not my responsibility. Oh, and, KKK? Apologize for what they did. They're following your holy book. Apologize now, retard.

use human beings for shields in war, and refuse to be accountable for causing immense death and destruction of human beings in the name of Allah.
They can do anything they want in the name of God. They can kill themselves or eat other people or anything else between the sky and the earth. Neither I nor my religion approve of that which is enough to take away moral responsibility.

This is what religious fascism teaches
Your religion is among the worst in terms of the history of its followers. Regardless of what other religious people have done, fact is that the atrocities committed by the people who follow YOUR religion are among the worst in known human history. Remember that Hitler also claimed to follow the words of God, and ended up committing the worst atrocities. Take responsibility, won't you? Of course not. You're a pathetic moron, a deluded retard with no rational thought processing. This disables you from making intelligent decisions and not end up being a hypocrite.

Muhammadans and makes them into moral cretins whose totalitarian ideology must be exposed everywhere non-Muslims interact with totalitarian Muhammadans.
The ideology of totalitarian Christians must be exposed everywhere. In interaction and non-interaction. It seems we're on the same track here.

Now we have two litmus tests to see that Muhammadans are dangerous people to everyone who desires peace on earth and respect for life and human rights:
Troll harder.

Test One: Ask the Muhammadan which set of words are most important to the welfare of humankind: The Quran or the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights.
Now I ask you: What is wrong with following the Qur'an for the welfare of humankind?

Test Two: Ask the Muhammadan why are Ahmadiyyah Muslims who practice a true religion of peace persecuted by Muhammadans?
They're persecuted only by the most radical (and theologically speaking wrong) Muslim groups.

In both cases Muhammadans are shown to desire to attack those who champion human rights and peace between people as Muhammadism is an ideology of continuous warfare to instill fascist religious government control over human life.
You have yet to explain what is wrong with using the Qur'an in terms of human welfare, lawmaking, etc. You ignored my other post entirely, only taking the part that was useful for you to make a speech out of. What did you have for dinner? Something brain-devouring?

Try again, Ma'am.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/22/2014 10:41:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Your religion is among the worst in terms of the history of its followers. Regardless of what other religious people have done, fact is that the atrocities committed by the people who follow YOUR religion are among the worst in known human history. Remember that Hitler also claimed to follow the words of God, and ended up committing the worst atrocities. Take responsibility, won't you? Of course not. You're a pathetic moron, a deluded retard with no rational thought processing. This disables you from making intelligent decisions and not end up being a hypocrite."

Mirza, you will never be able to make any claim to intelligent decisions when you cannot even tell what my religion is. What it is, Mirza? Can you read my moniker or is that too hard for you Muhammadans to do? First we have Fattyhead, (sorry, can't help myself from making the association between fatty deposits in some people's brains and Fatihah's moniker..) believing or worse deceiving that I am a Jew who follows Moses and Mosaic Law, then we have you thinking I'm a Catholic? What next? Mormon? Jehovah's Witness? All you had to do was read my moniker but that was too hard to figure out for our Muhummadan fascist promoters of human rights abuse and murdering of Christians who won't abandon their faith for killer ape Muhammadans, which as you repeatedly point out, YOU are not responsible for. You both read the same book and they act out parts of it that you aren't responsible for.

What a loser in the moral demand of real religious people you are and your your fellow Muhammadans keeping primitive barbarity in our modern world because you can't learn how to behave like human beings, no empathy developed in your brains for others in pain and misery caused by your fellow religionists. You sir, and your fellow morally irresponsible Muhammadans are a blight on the spiritual work of those of us who really have surrendered to God as peace. Go apologize to your nearest Ahmadiyyah Muslim who is a true Muslim which you Muhammadans are not. Your religion is too violent and too morally irresponsible and it only produces violent men unless they get pacified by teachings of the Messiah and learn how to control their rage centers and develop empathy for other people regardless of their beliefs.
celestialtorahteacher
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7/22/2014 10:45:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You're all just backward children, Muhammadans, little people raised in backward nations where education hasn't arrived to teach their societies about human rights denied by primitive societies often totally controlled by males.
celestialtorahteacher
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7/22/2014 10:50:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You need to join the human race as modern men and women and you will never be able to do that as long as you hold to ancient warlord fascist ideology in religious form. I don't want to have to scold you again and again like a parent you've never known in Muslim upbringing, but someone has to tell you to Grow Up and stop being baby bad boys with guns or promoting bad boys with guns and thinking you are anywhere near God? I don't want to have to tell you this again. Stop posting your Muhammad fascist baloney and go out and help human beings on your own merits, not as a clone of a dead man who doctrines spawn killer apes in action.
jh1234l
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7/23/2014 12:12:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 5:44:41 AM, BradK wrote:
Here are 2 quotes from different sections of the Qur'an:

[2:256]"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion"

[2:24]But if you do not [produce writing comparable to the Qur'an] - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

Essentially what this is saying is "if you are a disbeliever, you aren't forced to join Islam, but if you don't you will be sent to hell". To make this a little more explicit, it's the same thing as if I were standing in front of you with a skin peeler and a can of gasoline saying "If you don't become atheist, I'm gonna light your skin on fire, peel it off, wait for it to grow back and do that again and again, forever". Which is the use of force.

What's "compulsion", or forcing someone to do something? You don't have to physically make someone do something to be "forcing" them to do it. You can threaten them with an unavoidable punishment, which means they have to comply to your request. Failure not to comply in this case basically means eternal punishment... which is the worst outcome there is, so there's no option but to oblige to the request to join Islam.

---

So to debate this, is this a contradiction in Islam, or not? Why? Are these 2 verses not equivalent to someone standing over you with instruments of torture saying "listen to me or suffer, but I'm not forcing you to do anything" (which is a contradictory statement)?

I think it's a contradiction, what's your opinion?

I have not read through your whole forum post but I think that you are a evil athiest who is trying to defame and blasphimize the truth. Your futile attempts at proveing evolution and atheism are irrelevant and are just futile attempts to oppress religion. Evolution and atheistism are proven false by Discovery Institute that decide that its false.

Christianity is truth, and Islam is terroristism because their from the Middle East.

Theres no contradiction in Quran or Bible. Bible also say same thing too. Both are no contradiction as not force to belief in truth and getting burnt forever for not doing so are not mutually exclusive.
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -1.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.82
1 square right of Nelson Mandela, 2 squares down from Francois Hollande
Mirza
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7/23/2014 12:33:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 10:41:38 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Mirza, you will never be able to make any claim to intelligent decisions when you cannot even tell what my religion is.
Second time you've skipped the rest of my rebuttal. You're a sore loser with the intellectual capabilities of a child. Return to me when you're ready for a discussion, or a formal debate if you want an audience to watch you being humiliated. I could not care less about your religion, but I'll label you anything I want from among the Christian sects as long as you are guilty of doing the same to me and everyone else. You're the pot calling the kettle black.

People who follow your religion are, historically speaking, the greatest barbarians the world has known. You're among their kind. Intellectually weak, mentally wrecked, sore, pathetic loser.
Mirza
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7/23/2014 12:45:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Giving an additional look at this imbecile, he really is mentally damaged. He claims to follow the "Celestial Torah Christianity"? Oh dear God. He's apparently been banned on several other forums for multi-accounting and other nonsense. What a lunatic.